Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Anvil.9230]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> I dunno, raids shouldnt be made easier. You want to raid? Learn how to do it. Raids arent fractals, they were not meant to be fractals. Challenging content, thats what it is. But give leggy armor an alternate pve path. No unique skin, ofc, time gated it at 35 weeks minimum, make it cost more.

> Edit: my voting was a misclick

 

People want a way to obtain original (not ordinary) skins without playing the game?...it already exist: it is called Black Lion Trading Company.

 

But items like the legendary raid armor, ad infinitum, Warbringer, etc. are rewards of different part of the game....And it's a very good thing in term of challenge motivation, etc....They are like medals for the people who success the challenge proposed by game designers...A thing a lot of people appreciate, whatever they play: video game, irl sport like rugby, (cup, trophy, medals....). Nobody is in obligation to have a rugby tournament cup at home....but if someone want one, that person have to play the game in a way to win that price...

 

Well it was sympathic to particpate to this discussion, but ....Come on people who complain the legendary armor is too difficult to obtain...The time you spend to fight here to change the rule of the game, you would have play, certainly find a way to kill some bosses and made some progress in the path to a skin that visibly haunt your Dreams.

 

Hope to see you in game with the same kind of energy ;)

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > >There's no such thing as "intrinsic value". "Value" itself is a matter of perception, and only of perception.

> > > > >

> > > > > Let's not engage in semantics here. For the purpose of this discussion, when I say that something has "intrinsic value," I am referring to its value to a person that it *internal* to that person, and not relative to anyone else. The opposite would be a value that only has worth in so far as other people are involved. Specifically to this example, I am talking about someone being happy that *they* have Legendary armor, in a way that does not require anyone else to *not* have it, OR rely on other people praising them for having it. The value it would have if the person who had it was the only person on Earth.

> > > >

> > > > So, let's not engage in semantics, but engage in extremities instead? :) We're social beings, the kind of abstraction you're imposing here is neither practical, nor realistic.

> > >

> > > I'm not saying that the intrinsic value is the only thing that can matter, I'm just saying that it should override extrinsic values like showing off. A player who is happy because *he* has a item should matter more than a player who can only be happy because he believes others are jealous of him for having the item.

> >

> > And like I said, you can't just randomly decide to exclude the external factors. This isn't some spherical body in a vacuum, happiness is influenced by great many things. And also you don't get to decide how and why other people feel. Telling what "should" matter for someone else is pointless.

>

> And again, I recognize that, I just don't believe it should be as valuable as the intrinsic value. Think of it like this.

 

And again, "should" is irrelevant. What's relevant are the actual perceptions. *This* is what devs actually consider, because this is what actually drives the players. Pondering what theoretical players would feel under ideal conditions is just another utopia. And just like every utopia it cannot be applied to real world because it fails to take into account how people *actually* behave. You're focusing on how you *want* people to behave rather than on how they actually do. This is your mistake.

[MADPIEMAN.8023]

Raids should not have an easy mode imo. Firstly, they have a range of difficulties which range from easy to hard that already provide a difficulty curve. In addition, raids are generally not that hard, especially if you use easier comps and tactics . However, the main reason is that Anet simply do not have the resources and time to make an easy mode for raids; which also tend to have less replay-ability than normal or hard modes so are a worse resource investment.

 

I think the main issues with raids are: lack of tutorialisation of the core game that naturally leads to raid difficulty and the barrier of finding a group of players. For the first point; if players were taught about the games mechanics better with increasing difficulty, the general skill of players would be higher and there would be less reluctance to try raids, as the difficulty jump would be less of a perceived barrier. The benefit of this over an easy mode is that it would reduce the difficulty jump for all content not just raids.

 

Regarding finding a group, I think this is a common reason for people not raiding and solving this would help increase the raiding population. Perhaps in-game guild recruitment or and improved LFG; as I believe joining a group of like-minded players is important for raiding - especially when starting out.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> The game can and sort of does it rn with the armor. If you arent satisfied with your option to not go after the armor then why should the game do something about it?

 

I think you're trying, and failing, to make a false equivalency argument there.

 

>Nah fortnight has 190k ppl watching but it also has 4 or so mill concurent players playing. The numbers on twitch translate in a game's health and population very easily you can denny it all you want but it doesnt make it false.

 

Again, no, it's not corollary. Some people enjoy watching games, some people enjoy playing games, the number of people that watch something is not relative to the number of people that play it themselves, and even if it were, the total numbers watching twitch streams for GW2 are way too small for anyone to care about. It is not a significant metric in any way.

 

>Unlike the lw team ra8ds have only 1 team thats 2 less teams than lw.

 

But *again,* **that means nothing.** The "number of teams" is irrelevant. What matters is the amount of content produced, and raids have produced a rather noteworthy amount of content, content that would exist elsewhere in the game if it weren't tied up in raids.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Its your choice to make the blind eye and say infuencers are not importand and i guess that could be the case if it only aplied to gw2 but every mmo has viewership balanced for its population +- how comfortably viewable the content is.

 

You understand that while 3.5K people may have watched the recent raid runs, *nine* thousand people have watched Wooden Potatoes *sitting on a variety of chairs?* Does that mean ANet should be shifting half their raid team over to chair sitting improvements?

 

>Again theres nothing player A cant have in this game theres also no players (at large) that want something because someone else cant have it.

 

That's an insincere argument under the circumstances. It has been well explained why while you *believe* this to be true, it is not.

 

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> If two or three hours dedicated to a single activity within an MMO once or twice a week are too much to ask then it's time to look for another game or to **get gud**. That's too long? Do as the top guilds and clear all wings in under two hours.

 

This is the point of the thread, to open up options that take less of an investment. From log-in to LFG to encounter, to completion in maybe 20-30 minutes per encounter, if that.

 

>Edit: plox nerf LW updates, take to long to play. Let me log in and just get all the rewards instantly.

 

If you're averaging 2-3 hours per evening on LW updates then you're doing something wrong, they typically take me an average of about 2-3 minutes per evening (concentrated over a couple of days, typically).

 

> @"Anvil.9230" said:

>People want a way to obtain original (not ordinary) skins without playing the game?...it already exist: it is called Black Lion Trading Company.

 

I haven't seen any Envoy skins on the BLTC. Also, they almost never release any armor skins on there anymore, it's mostly junk Outfits. I would be spending SO much money on there if they offered all those Outfits as actual armor skins.

 

But the point isn't "to get 'some kind of armor,'" the point is to get the specific armor you're looking for, so it's not a matter of "you can't have this one, but you can have that one, so it's ok." It has to be the one that the person wants.

 

>But items like the legendary raid armor, ad infinitum, Warbringer, etc. are rewards of different part of the game....And it's a very good thing in term of challenge motivation, etc....They are like medals for the people who success the challenge proposed by game designers...A thing a lot of people appreciate, whatever they play: video game, irl sport like rugby, (cup, trophy, medals....). Nobody is in obligation to have a rugby tournament cup at home....but if someone want one, that person have to play the game in a way to win that price...

 

A medal or a trophy is something that has no value *except* as a token of achievement, it is something that nobody would EVER want *except* to show off that they did a specific thing. The same can never be said about Envoy armor, people *can* want it purely for what it is, not what it signifies. If they want to have medals or trophies in the game to show off accomplishments, that's fine, but it shouldn't come in the form of weapon or armor skins that players could want *without* caring about the signifier status.

 

>Well it was sympathic to particpate to this discussion, but ....Come on people who complain the legendary armor is too difficult to obtain...The time you spend to fight here to change the rule of the game, you would have play, certainly find a way to kill some bosses and made some progress in the path to a skin that visibly haunt your Dreams.

 

Yes, if that's something I wanted to do, but it's not. I have no interest in pursuing them in their current form, which is why I am trying to improve the game so that nobody has to.

 

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>You're focusing on how you *want* people to behave rather than on how they actually do. This is your mistake.

 

And you believe that you *aren't?*

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > The game can and sort of does it rn with the armor. If you arent satisfied with your option to not go after the armor then why should the game do something about it?

>

> I think you're trying, and failing, to make a false equivalency argument there.

>

Though id follow your practice to see if i will get any result, as expected i didnt /shrug

 

> >Nah fortnight has 190k ppl watching but it also has 4 or so mill concurent players playing. The numbers on twitch translate in a game's health and population very easily you can denny it all you want but it doesnt make it false.

>

> Again, no, it's not corollary. Some people enjoy watching games, some people enjoy playing games, the number of people that watch something is not relative to the number of people that play it themselves, and even if it were, the total numbers watching twitch streams for GW2 are way too small for anyone to care about. It is not a significant metric in any way.

>

Some ppl enjoy watching games idd, that doesnt mean they enjoy watching all kinds of things. Ppl enjoy watching other play what they also share interest for, so you see extremely popular games to do well on twitch and again u can see the more ppl play an mmo the better it will do on twitch. The simple fact that streamers that largely stream raids and raid event cover the majority of viewership of gw2 in twitch shows that theres a substancial interest in raids.

 

> >Unlike the lw team ra8ds have only 1 team thats 2 less teams than lw.

>

> But *again,* **that means nothing.** The "number of teams" is irrelevant. What matters is the amount of content produced, and raids have produced a rather noteworthy amount of content, content that would exist elsewhere in the game if it weren't tied up in raids.

>

Maybe. Same aplies to every bit of content if they didnt make lw content the equivalent of that couldnt could maybe have existed as more raids or fractals. Same with the fractals team same with the current events team etc.

 

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Its your choice to make the blind eye and say infuencers are not importand and i guess that could be the case if it only aplied to gw2 but every mmo has viewership balanced for its population +- how comfortably viewable the content is.

>

> You understand that while 3.5K people may have watched the recent raid runs, *nine* thousand people have watched Wooden Potatoes *sitting on a variety of chairs?* Does that mean ANet should be shifting half their raid team over to chair sitting improvements?

>

Nah thet should propably shift their lw teams their as out of the bunch lw gets them the least exposure on twitch. Also 15-25 thousad ppl watched him play the raid.

 

> >Again theres nothing player A cant have in this game theres also no players (at large) that want something because someone else cant have it.

>

> That's an insincere argument under the circumstances. It has been well explained why while you *believe* this to be true, it is not.

>

Or rather u keep getting this answer from quite afew ppl here and dissregard it. dissregard=/= not true.

 

> > @"Grogba.6204" said:

> > If two or three hours dedicated to a single activity within an MMO once or twice a week are too much to ask then it's time to look for another game or to **get gud**. That's too long? Do as the top guilds and clear all wings in under two hours.

>

> This is the point of the thread, to open up options that take less of an investment. From log-in to LFG to encounter, to completion in maybe 20-30 minutes per encounter, if that.

>

Fractals take more time per on a weekly basis than raids should they cha ge as well?

 

> >Edit: plox nerf LW updates, take to long to play. Let me log in and just get all the rewards instantly.

>

> If you're averaging 2-3 hours per evening on LW updates then you're doing something wrong, they typically take me an average of about 2-3 minutes per evening (concentrated over a couple of days, typically).

>

Raids dont take 2-3 per evening either. They takes prob 3 hours top per week. Again 25~ mins per day.

 

> > @"Anvil.9230" said:

> >People want a way to obtain original (not ordinary) skins without playing the game?...it already exist: it is called Black Lion Trading Company.

>

> I haven't seen any Envoy skins on the BLTC. Also, they almost never release any armor skins on there anymore, it's mostly junk Outfits. I would be spending SO much money on there if they offered all those Outfits as actual armor skins.

>

> But the point isn't "to get 'some kind of armor,'" the point is to get the specific armor you're looking for, so it's not a matter of "you can't have this one, but you can have that one, so it's ok." It has to be the one that the person wants.

>

You can have this one alot of ppl have it go get it.

 

> >But items like the legendary raid armor, ad infinitum, Warbringer, etc. are rewards of different part of the game....And it's a very good thing in term of challenge motivation, etc....They are like medals for the people who success the challenge proposed by game designers...A thing a lot of people appreciate, whatever they play: video game, irl sport like rugby, (cup, trophy, medals....). Nobody is in obligation to have a rugby tournament cup at home....but if someone want one, that person have to play the game in a way to win that price...

>

> A medal or a trophy is something that has no value *except* as a token of achievement, it is something that nobody would EVER want *except* to show off that they did a specific thing. The same can never be said about Envoy armor, people *can* want it purely for what it is, not what it signifies. If they want to have medals or trophies in the game to show off accomplishments, that's fine, but it shouldn't come in the form of weapon or armor skins that players could want *without* caring about the signifier status.

>

Ofc it can be said. As well as the other way around ofc you can say that someone wants to get the trophy and would go partake in a footbal tourney for it. They also might want to shake it on camera for the viewers and fans to see. Much like ppl want to get the armor and you will raid for it and you might want to wear it for others to see.

 

> >Well it was sympathic to particpate to this discussion, but ....Come on people who complain the legendary armor is too difficult to obtain...The time you spend to fight here to change the rule of the game, you would have play, certainly find a way to kill some bosses and made some progress in the path to a skin that visibly haunt your Dreams.

>

> Yes, if that's something I wanted to do, but it's not. I have no interest in pursuing them in their current form, which is why I am trying to improve the game so that nobody has to.

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >You're focusing on how you *want* people to behave rather than on how they actually do. This is your mistake.

>

> And you believe that you *aren't?*

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > > But, that aside. Truth is, no matter what, what they are doing right now is not working.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > That's why a raid tournament has around 3.5k viewers with 4k in the peak while regular GW2 streams (usually <100 viewers, rather <10 viewers) are just a noise in the background. Even without a special event MTP has the most viewers in GW2 due to a heavy focus on raiding besides WvWing.

> > > > > > > This and the fact that raiding became a regular activity by a lot of players + having one of the most active lfgs are proving that. Raiding with its current difficulty is attracting people. You couldn't be more wrong tbh. Deny it or accept it. This event is a big success compared to any other stuff we have seen from GW2 over the last months. ^^

> > > > > > > It's not hard to imagine how GW2 would have been evolved without the adding of challenging content when HoT was released.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > _Last months_ ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Oh sure.. I'd give you that, absolutely, currently Raids are the only thing not hemorrhaging player activity in the game currently.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But Raids and HoT were launched over 2 years ago, and the game has been losing players and funds in a direct downward slope since then. no doubt due to their addition to the game. I mean, what else can happen, when they made direct efforts to kill everything else.. it's no surprise that a few years later all they are left with is.. what they are left with.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What could have happened? We might never know, but, what they did, was bad.

> > > > >

> > > > > Explain. You say they activelly killing the game but i see them releasing a new map with every living world update. Releasing new fractals for the first time since forever and communicating more than ever. Even balance patches are more often due to player request.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you see this as anet killing their owm game then by all means let them kill it.

> > > > >

> > > > > But ill give that, your iron will to ignore the 2 expacs which launched in a barebone state (albeit hot was made as a systems expac) with relativelly low replayability value and say the downward trend is solely because of raids is... admirable.

> > > >

> > > > Sure.

> > > >

> > > > Lets use one of the examples you have put out, the _new Fractals_ which after slogging though them a few times myself, for the story and because I used to enjoy fractals, it's clear they are designed for people who like twitch combat and are looking for a mini-raid type of environment. They even went so far as to revise some of the older fractals to make them more drawn out and boring slogs. So they are just another move to push the game away from the casual player and more into the direction of catering to Raiders.

> > > >

> > > > Kudos.

> > >

> > > If the latest fractal to be raid like i must question how much u raided. If anything this fractal is the cosest thing to dungeons we got since forever.

> >

> > Ark was an ugly bag of over inflated HP that turned into a DPS slog dependent on running a meta build to get it done in a reasonable time frame, coupled with a tacky twitch mechanic.

> >

> > Felt like being stuck doing VG again, with a lot of unnecessary build up.

>

> The lastest fractal was Twilight Oasis, not Shattered Observatory.

> High level fractals need to be balanced for optimal groups or they get boring really quickly. Everything on Ark has large tells and has more than enough time to react to. 2-3 Seconds to react has nothing to do with twitch.

 

Nice one lol.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

>Some ppl enjoy watching games idd, that doesnt mean they enjoy watching all kinds of things. Ppl enjoy watching other play what they also share interest for, so you see extremely popular games to do well on twitch and again u can see the more ppl play an mmo the better it will do on twitch. The simple fact that streamers that largely stream raids and raid event cover the majority of viewership of gw2 in twitch shows that theres a substancial interest in raids.

 

Again, no, it does no such thing. It means that watching these raid tournaments is relatively interesting *viewing.* That has nothing to do with whether anyone wants to actually *participate.* Again, WP got about three times as many views for a video about sitting in chairs. Is chair sitting the new meta?

 

>Maybe. Same aplies to every bit of content if they didnt make lw content the equivalent of that couldnt could maybe have existed as more raids or fractals.

 

Obviously. I'm just disputing the argument being very often put forth by raiders that "oh, it's not a big deal, they barely work on it, it's only a tiny tiny tiny baby-hamster-eating-tiny-burritos team working on the project, don't worry about it." The fact remains that however many people are working on the project, they've turned out a significant amount of product, and that could have been aimed at a broader audience.

 

>Nah thet should propably shift their lw teams their as out of the bunch lw gets them the least exposure on twitch. Also 15-25 thousad ppl watched him play the raid.

 

And I was one of those, because I find the raids *interesting,* but I believe I've been very clear how interested I am in actually *playing* them as they currently stand.

 

>Fractals take more time per on a weekly basis than raids should they cha ge as well?

 

I'm not talking about Fractals. If you want to have that discussion, that's fine, but it's irrelevant to the points I was making.

 

>Raids dont take 2-3 per evening either. They takes prob 3 hours top per week. Again 25~ mins per day.

 

The poster I was responding to at the time was claiming that he was "only" able to put in 2-3 hours per evening, an yet he *still* somehow managed to get somewhere.

 

If raids do tend to only take 25 minutes per day though, then why do people keep telling me that *my* ~25 minutes per day raids would be "way too little time and effort to ever possibly justify Envoy armor? Seems like all I'm asking is to spend the exact *same* amount of time and effort, just in a mode that I would enjoy more.

 

>Ofc it can be said. As well as the other way around ofc you can say that someone wants to get the trophy and would go partake in a footbal tourney for it. They also might want to shake it on camera for the viewers and fans to see. Much like ppl want to get the armor and you will raid for it and you might want to wear it for others to see.

 

Again, I have ZERO problem with ANet providing raiders with trophies that they can shake around in LA all they want. That has nothing to do with armor skins, however, the armor skins should be available to players who want them FOR the armor skins, *regardless* of whether or not they enjoy the content they are currently locked behind.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >You're focusing on how you *want* people to behave rather than on how they actually do. This is your mistake.

>

> And you believe that you *aren't?*

 

I don't believe it, I know it. I'm not telling you how to *behave*. I'm merely telling you why you're wrong and why the realities of this particular game are not how you think they should be.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> >Some ppl enjoy watching games idd, that doesnt mean they enjoy watching all kinds of things. Ppl enjoy watching other play what they also share interest for, so you see extremely popular games to do well on twitch and again u can see the more ppl play an mmo the better it will do on twitch. The simple fact that streamers that largely stream raids and raid event cover the majority of viewership of gw2 in twitch shows that theres a substancial interest in raids.

>

> Again, no, it does no such thing. It means that watching these raid tournaments is relatively interesting *viewing.* That has nothing to do with whether anyone wants to actually *participate.* Again, WP got about three times as many views for a video about sitting in chairs. Is chair sitting the new meta?

>

cant compaire videos to stream doesnt work like that.

 

> >Maybe. Same aplies to every bit of content if they didnt make lw content the equivalent of that couldnt could maybe have existed as more raids or fractals.

>

> Obviously. I'm just disputing the argument being very often put forth by raiders that "oh, it's not a big deal, they barely work on it, it's only a tiny tiny tiny baby-hamster-eating-tiny-burritos team working on the project, don't worry about it." The fact remains that however many people are working on the project, they've turned out a significant amount of product, and that could have been aimed at a broader audience.

>

And lw has produced an sagnificant amount of content that could be more raids instead. Their arguement also stand, they are a smaller team reaquiring less resources.

 

> >Nah thet should propably shift their lw teams their as out of the bunch lw gets them the least exposure on twitch. Also 15-25 thousad ppl watched him play the raid.

>

> And I was one of those, because I find the raids *interesting,* but I believe I've been very clear how interested I am in actually *playing* them as they currently stand.

>

go play them

 

> >Fractals take more time per on a weekly basis than raids should they cha ge as well?

>

> I'm not talking about Fractals. If you want to have that discussion, that's fine, but it's irrelevant to the points I was making.

>

"Oh this point doesnt help my case ima dissregard it"

 

> >Raids dont take 2-3 per evening either. They takes prob 3 hours top per week. Again 25~ mins per day.

>

> The poster I was responding to at the time was claiming that he was "only" able to put in 2-3 hours per evening, an yet he *still* somehow managed to get somewhere.

>

> If raids do tend to only take 25 minutes per day though, then why do people keep telling me that *my* ~25 minutes per day raids would be "way too little time and effort to ever possibly justify Envoy armor? Seems like all I'm asking is to spend the exact *same* amount of time and effort, just in a mode that I would enjoy more.

>

25 mins per day for a whole week u will have all the wings done for that week. Thats already the case go do it.

> >Ofc it can be said. As well as the other way around ofc you can say that someone wants to get the trophy and would go partake in a footbal tourney for it. They also might want to shake it on camera for the viewers and fans to see. Much like ppl want to get the armor and you will raid for it and you might want to wear it for others to see.

>

> Again, I have ZERO problem with ANet providing raiders with trophies that they can shake around in LA all they want. That has nothing to do with armor skins, however, the armor skins should be available to players who want them FOR the armor skins, *regardless* of whether or not they enjoy the content they are currently locked behind.

>

>

 

"Oh i dont care about this cosmetic so i couldnt care less if they lock it behind the raid, but the skin i like? *NO* i want that so obv theres a problem with that being there" yeah nice double standards.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Explains why there are more ppl on twitch showing interest in the game and asling if they should buy the expansion now compaired to pre hot.

Of course. The game did gain a small number of hardcores, and those are way more into things like streaming.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> On the other hand, seeing that the pof expansion launch the whole game was so excited about got around 8k viewership... oops wrong meme.

Yes, wrong meme. You're comparing numbers between a group that doesn't stream and doesn't watch stream with those that do. Of course the second group will have better numbers. Notice however, that for a group that _does_ watch, those numbers are tragically low.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Its your choice to make the blind eye and say infuencers are not importand

Oh, they are important. Among those their message can reach. Unfortunately, it's clear that GW2 players simply _do not_ watch twitch. Some of them do watch youtube (as can be seen from for example, WP's viewership numbers), but the numbers on YT do not seem to follow the same trends for some reason. Even if YT numbers are also heavily skewed towards hardcores.

 

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Explains why there are more ppl on twitch showing interest in the game and asling if they should buy the expansion now compaired to pre hot.

> Of course. The game did gain a small number of hardcores, and those are way more into things like streaming.

>

Wether its "small or not you cant tell. Wether they are hardcore you also cant tell i met alot of ppl in teapot streams that didnt have the slightest interest in gaming and just wanted to ask if the game is good and worth their time.

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > On the other hand, seeing that the pof expansion launch the whole game was so excited about got around 8k viewership... oops wrong meme.

> Yes, wrong meme. You're comparing numbers between a group that doesn't stream and doesn't watch stream with those that do. Of course the second group will have better numbers. Notice however, that for a group that _does_ watch, those numbers are tragically low.

>

So you tell me that the entirety of the game the "whole 400k players" that log in have less ppl enjoying watching streams than a by your words "Small part of the game? I mean wp only streams open world stuff and some times pvp casting and gets as many viewers as teapot so i dont see the arguement that "the rest of the game doesnt like streams"

 

"Those numbers are tragically low" compaire to what? Iv given you example from other parts of the game with big members of the community streaming pulling less ppl, WP, The ugo tourney, the big pvp streamers in tourney and events. None of the pull bigger numbers and they are all equally unwatchable as raids. So compaired to waht are these numbers tragically low?

 

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Its your choice to make the blind eye and say infuencers are not importand

> Oh, they are important. Among those their message can reach. Unfortunately, it's clear that GW2 players simply _do not_ watch twitch. Some of them do watch youtube (as can be seen from for example, WP's viewership numbers), but the numbers on YT do not seem to follow the same trends for some reason. Even if YT numbers are also heavily skewed towards hardcores.

>

>

>

They may not watch but theres alot of ppl daily that buy the game simply because they went on a streamed and asked the streamer and the chat "hey should i buy the game?" Also you cant really compaire streaming to youtube they arent at all similar.

 

[runeblade.7514]

I would like to see easy difficulty be split into parts.

 

Easy- 33% difficulty. This difficulty is so that any player can join in with any class and complete the raid boss easily. The purpose of this difficulty is to expose the player on what the boss can do. This difficulty should be hard to fail, there should be no one-shot mechanics in here.

 

Medium- 66% difficulty. This difficulty requires roles but it is more forgiving than normal mode. Rather than mechanics one-shotting and failing the raid, It puts more pressure. This mode teaches what mechanics hurt a lot and what the player should avoid.

 

Normal mode- Regular difficulty.

[zealex.9410]

> @"runeblade.7514" said:

> I would like to see easy difficulty be split into parts.

>

> Easy- 33% difficulty. This difficulty is so that any player can join in with any class and complete the raid boss easily. The purpose of this difficulty is to expose the player on what the boss can do. This difficulty should be hard to fail, there should be no one-shot mechanics in here.

>

> Medium- 66% difficulty. This difficulty requires roles but it is more forgiving than normal mode. Rather than mechanics one-shotting and failing the raid, It puts more pressure. This mode teaches what mechanics hurt a lot and what the player should avoid.

>

> Normal mode- Regular difficulty.

 

What about the rewards?

[runeblade.7514]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > I would like to see easy difficulty be split into parts.

> >

> > Easy- 33% difficulty. This difficulty is so that any player can join in with any class and complete the raid boss easily. The purpose of this difficulty is to expose the player on what the boss can do. This difficulty should be hard to fail, there should be no one-shot mechanics in here.

> >

> > Medium- 66% difficulty. This difficulty requires roles but it is more forgiving than normal mode. Rather than mechanics one-shotting and failing the raid, It puts more pressure. This mode teaches what mechanics hurt a lot and what the player should avoid.

> >

> > Normal mode- Regular difficulty.

>

> What about the rewards?

 

There should be rewards, but I will tell you it will give less rewards. ANet can go with how they put Fractal reward design where if you do T4, you get the t3/t2/t1 rewards as well. With that reward design, there would be no reason raiders that can easily complete normal mode do less difficulty mode.

 

The easy/medium difficult rewards should be a daily reward. But if you complete normal difficulty, you get all the easy/medium rewards for the week, since raids are weekly. I would like that easy/medium rewards be daily is so that players can practice the raid boss more and that normal difficulty raiders do less work for more rewards.

[Sephylon.4938]

yeesh, I take 1 week end off....

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> >I'm not asking for new penalties though, just 1-3 rezes to be added to raid encounters if the player has the mastery for it, making subsequent fights easier much like how it works in fractals.

>

> Ah, I'm sorry, I'd thought you meant adding new optional penalties, like "Social Awkwardness" and the such. If all it's doing is allowing you to rez defeated players then that might be a positive impact, but with the caveat that it may take more than 1-3, and the people most in need of them wouldn't necessarily have those masteries unlocked, so it might be an interesting bonus, but wouldn't be a *substitute* for a proper easy mode.

 

Fair point, how about if we start with 1 or 2 with no mastery, and each subsequent mastery adds an additional stack.

 

Another option I've thought of; more predictable greens instead of larger/longer greens. Removing the randomness of greens should, in my opinion, make it easier for people to do it. Have it spawn either at the symbol of each pie slice of every pie slice vg is on, or a few cells off of vg itself every time green spawns. I feel like the later would prevent the blues on green stacking for new players. All else about the green stays the same.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > >You're focusing on how you *want* people to behave rather than on how they actually do. This is your mistake.

> >

> > And you believe that you *aren't?*

>

> I don't believe it, I know it. I'm not telling you how to *behave*. I'm merely telling you why you're wrong and why the realities of this particular game are not how you think they should be.

 

But you're basically trying to perpetuate the myth that any player can come to enjoy the raiding lifestyle if they just want it hard enough, which isn't true. Either accept that many players will NEVER be happy with the current situation and that you don't care that they will be unhappy, or work toward their happiness.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> cant compaire videos to stream doesnt work like that.

 

Even more importantly, you can't compare stream views to gameplay interest, because that *definitely* doesn't work like that.

 

>And lw has produced an sagnificant amount of content that could be more raids instead.

 

So what? That would have been completely counterproductive and entirely beside the point.

 

>Their arguement also stand, they are a smaller team reaquiring less resources.

 

And those resources could still be better spent on a broader audience.

 

>go play them

 

No.

 

>25 mins per day for a whole week u will have all the wings done for that week. Thats already the case go do it.

 

Right, so if that's the case, then why are raiders constantly arguing against the addition of an easy mode version that would take no less time or effort to complete?

 

>"Oh i dont care about this cosmetic so i couldnt care less if they lock it behind the raid, but the skin i like? NO i want that so obv theres a problem with that being there" yeah nice double standards.

 

I don't see it as a double standard, but rather that it would be a false equivalency to claim that they're the same thing. Again though, if *you* believe that it is a double standard, that a trophy is just as good as a skin, then I'm fine with that, we've reached an agreement. Envoy armor can be made available via other means, an exclusive trophy item can be available ONLY to those who complete easy mode raids, and we can *both* be happy with that outcome.

 

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> yeesh, I take 1 week end off....

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > >I'm not asking for new penalties though, just 1-3 rezes to be added to raid encounters if the player has the mastery for it, making subsequent fights easier much like how it works in fractals.

> >

> > Ah, I'm sorry, I'd thought you meant adding new optional penalties, like "Social Awkwardness" and the such. If all it's doing is allowing you to rez defeated players then that might be a positive impact, but with the caveat that it may take more than 1-3, and the people most in need of them wouldn't necessarily have those masteries unlocked, so it might be an interesting bonus, but wouldn't be a *substitute* for a proper easy mode.

>

> Fair point, how about if we start with 1 or 2 with no mastery, and each subsequent mastery adds an additional stack.

>

> Another option I've thought of; more predictable greens instead of larger/longer greens. Removing the randomness of greens should, in my opinion, make it easier for people to do it. Have it spawn either at the symbol of each pie slice of every pie slice vg is on, or a few cells off of vg itself every time green spawns. I feel like the later would prevent the blues on green stacking for new players. All else about the green stays the same.

 

Again though, if the behaviors are too different than hard mode then it loses any educational benefit. I mean, players can pretty instantly pick up that they are *supposed* to stand in the green circles, that's not a difficult concept that requires an easy mode to teach. What players need is the muscle memory of getting the *exact* conditions for it down over and over in the heat of combat. If you change the requirements or timing of the move, if you make it easier to *succeed,* then it would be worthless for building that muscle memory.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > >You're focusing on how you *want* people to behave rather than on how they actually do. This is your mistake.

> > >

> > > And you believe that you *aren't?*

> >

> > I don't believe it, I know it. I'm not telling you how to *behave*. I'm merely telling you why you're wrong and why the realities of this particular game are not how you think they should be.

>

> But you're basically trying to perpetuate the myth that any player can come to enjoy the raiding lifestyle if they just want it hard enough, which isn't true. Either accept that many players will NEVER be happy with the current situation and that you don't care that they will be unhappy, or work toward their happiness.

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > cant compaire videos to stream doesnt work like that.

>

> Even more importantly, you can't compare stream views to gameplay interest, because that *definitely* doesn't work like that.

>

Ofc you can.

 

> >And lw has produced an sagnificant amount of content that could be more raids instead.

>

> So what? That would have been completely counterproductive and entirely beside the point.

>

Counterproductive by your view, it would bame the game alot better by mine. As with everything else that doesnt help your arguements its irrelevant to the duscussion.

 

> >Their arguement also stand, they are a smaller team reaquiring less resources.

>

> And those resources could still be better spent on a broader audience.

>

Thats not for you to decide. And the may very well be so "productive" because they actually want to make challenging content.

 

> >go play them

>

> No.

>

> >25 mins per day for a whole week u will have all the wings done for that week. Thats already the case go do it.

>

> Right, so if that's the case, then why are raiders constantly arguing against the addition of an easy mode version that would take no less time or effort to complete?

>

Because it would take less effort hence "easier". It would also devale the work other have put to raids and towards the armor.

 

> >"Oh i dont care about this cosmetic so i couldnt care less if they lock it behind the raid, but the skin i like? NO i want that so obv theres a problem with that being there" yeah nice double standards.

>

> I don't see it as a double standard, but rather that it would be a false equivalency to claim that they're the same thing. Again though, if *you* believe that it is a double standard, that a trophy is just as good as a skin, then I'm fine with that, we've reached an agreement. Envoy armor can be made available via other means, an exclusive trophy item can be available ONLY to those who complete easy mode raids, and we can *both* be happy with that outcome.

>

No not really we didnt..

 

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > yeesh, I take 1 week end off....

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > >I'm not asking for new penalties though, just 1-3 rezes to be added to raid encounters if the player has the mastery for it, making subsequent fights easier much like how it works in fractals.

> > >

> > > Ah, I'm sorry, I'd thought you meant adding new optional penalties, like "Social Awkwardness" and the such. If all it's doing is allowing you to rez defeated players then that might be a positive impact, but with the caveat that it may take more than 1-3, and the people most in need of them wouldn't necessarily have those masteries unlocked, so it might be an interesting bonus, but wouldn't be a *substitute* for a proper easy mode.

> >

> > Fair point, how about if we start with 1 or 2 with no mastery, and each subsequent mastery adds an additional stack.

> >

> > Another option I've thought of; more predictable greens instead of larger/longer greens. Removing the randomness of greens should, in my opinion, make it easier for people to do it. Have it spawn either at the symbol of each pie slice of every pie slice vg is on, or a few cells off of vg itself every time green spawns. I feel like the later would prevent the blues on green stacking for new players. All else about the green stays the same.

>

> Again though, if the behaviors are too different than hard mode then it loses any educational benefit. I mean, players can pretty instantly pick up that they are *supposed* to stand in the green circles, that's not a difficult concept that requires an easy mode to teach. What players need is the muscle memory of getting the *exact* conditions for it down over and over in the heat of combat. If you change the requirements or timing of the move, if you make it easier to *succeed,* then it would be worthless for building that muscle memory.

 

 

[runeblade.7514]

Raiders may say that there is casual content such as Living Story and that would be the reason why Raids should not have easy mode.

 

Raiders can play Living Story if they want. Nothing there stops them from playing Living story. However, I am stopped at playing raids because no one wants to add me to their raid group. No matter how much I want it, I will never be able to play raids.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Because it would take less effort hence "easier". It would also devale the work other have put to raids and towards the armor.

 

It would take no less effort, we've established that hard mode raids can be completed in ~25 minutes per night, and easy mode would also take ~25 minutes per night, equal effort. They would just be more FUN for players that do not enjoy high-stress, high-risk content.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> So you tell me that the entirety of the game the "whole 400k players" that log in have less ppl enjoying watching streams than a by your words "Small part of the game? I mean wp only streams open world stuff and some times pvp casting and gets as many viewers as teapot so i dont see the arguement that "the rest of the game doesnt like streams"

Yes. Most of the players simply do not care about any of that. They never did. The casual to hardcore ratio for GW2 was always really high.

Hint: most of the players do not even know who WP or Teapot are.

Also, 400k? The population is dropping that fast?

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> "Those numbers are tragically low" compaire to what? Iv given you example from other parts of the game with big members of the community streaming pulling less ppl, WP, The ugo tourney, the big pvp streamers in tourney and events. None of the pull bigger numbers and they are all equally unwatchable as raids. So compaired to waht are these numbers tragically low?

To the game population. What else?

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> They may not watch but theres alot of ppl daily that buy the game simply because they went on a streamed and asked the streamer and the chat "hey should i buy the game?"

Apparently those players do not stay long, or those stream numbers would continue to go up. The truth is, that the people that play GW2 and are interested in it enough to stay longer, apparently do not watch streams, so they can't be influenced by them.

Unless you are saying that they stop watching streams as soon as they start playing?

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Because it would take less effort hence "easier". It would also devale the work other have put to raids and towards the armor.

>

> It would take no less effort, we've established that hard mode raids can be completed in ~25 minutes per night, and easy mode would also take ~25 minutes per night, equal effort. They would just be more FUN for players that do not enjoy high-stress, high-risk content.

 

What you ask for is already a thing its called normal raids.

[zealex.9410]

> @"runeblade.7514" said:

> Raiders may say that there is casual content such as Living Story and that would be the reason why Raids should not have easy mode.

>

> Raiders can play Living Story if they want. Nothing there stops them from playing Living story. However, I am stopped at playing raids because no one wants to add me to their raid group. No matter how much I want it, I will never be able to play raids.

 

U are asking the wrong groups. Join a training guild/discord and do them.

 

That i can do te content doesnt mean i will get the same satisfaction xompaired to doimg the raid.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > So you tell me that the entirety of the game the "whole 400k players" that log in have less ppl enjoying watching streams than a by your words "Small part of the game? I mean wp only streams open world stuff and some times pvp casting and gets as many viewers as teapot so i dont see the arguement that "the rest of the game doesnt like streams"

> Yes. Most of the players simply do not care about any of that. They never did. The casual to hardcore ratio for GW2 was always really high.

> Hint: most of the players do not even know who WP or Teapot are.

> Also, 400k? The population is dropping that fast?

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > "Those numbers are tragically low" compaire to what? Iv given you example from other parts of the game with big members of the community streaming pulling less ppl, WP, The ugo tourney, the big pvp streamers in tourney and events. None of the pull bigger numbers and they are all equally unwatchable as raids. So compaired to waht are these numbers tragically low?

> To the game population. What else?

 

What numb3rs do you have to proe that? I have numbers. Telling me that they might not like streams and whatnot is not proof is your opinion. Numbers talk.

 

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > They may not watch but theres alot of ppl daily that buy the game simply because they went on a streamed and asked the streamer and the chat "hey should i buy the game?"

> Apparently those players do not stay long, or those stream numbers would continue to go up. The truth is, that the people that play GW2 and are interested in it enough to stay longer, apparently do not watch streams, so they can't be influenced by them.

> Unless you are saying that they stop watching streams as soon as they start playing?

>

>

 

The numbers went up. Gw2 everaged lower viewership than it does now.

[runeblade.7514]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > Raiders may say that there is casual content such as Living Story and that would be the reason why Raids should not have easy mode.

> >

> > Raiders can play Living Story if they want. Nothing there stops them from playing Living story. However, I am stopped at playing raids because no one wants to add me to their raid group. No matter how much I want it, I will never be able to play raids.

>

> U are asking the wrong groups. Join a training guild/discord and do them.

>

> That i can do te content doesnt mean i will get the same satisfaction xompaired to doimg the raid.

 

And I wouldn't be asking for easy mode if that worked for me. Training raid guilds that actually train raids

 

It doesn't matter if you don't get the satisfaction, nothing stops you from playing casual content.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > So you tell me that the entirety of the game the "whole 400k players" that log in have less ppl enjoying watching streams than a by your words "Small part of the game? I mean wp only streams open world stuff and some times pvp casting and gets as many viewers as teapot so i dont see the arguement that "the rest of the game doesnt like streams"

> > Yes. Most of the players simply do not care about any of that. They never did. The casual to hardcore ratio for GW2 was always really high.

> > Hint: most of the players do not even know who WP or Teapot are.

> > Also, 400k? The population is dropping that fast?

> >

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > "Those numbers are tragically low" compaire to what? Iv given you example from other parts of the game with big members of the community streaming pulling less ppl, WP, The ugo tourney, the big pvp streamers in tourney and events. None of the pull bigger numbers and they are all equally unwatchable as raids. So compaired to waht are these numbers tragically low?

> > To the game population. What else?

>

> What numb3rs do you have to proe that? I have numbers. Telling me that they might not like streams and whatnot is not proof is your opinion. Numbers talk.

>

> >

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > They may not watch but theres alot of ppl daily that buy the game simply because they went on a streamed and asked the streamer and the chat "hey should i buy the game?"

> > Apparently those players do not stay long, or those stream numbers would continue to go up. The truth is, that the people that play GW2 and are interested in it enough to stay longer, apparently do not watch streams, so they can't be influenced by them.

> > Unless you are saying that they stop watching streams as soon as they start playing?

> >

> >

>

> The numbers went up. Gw2 everaged lower viewership than it does now.

 

Streaming doesn't correlate to a lot of raids. I watch a lot of streams and I don't play those games. I watch raid streams and I can't play them anyways.

[Ze Dos Cavalos.6132]

A raid Dev should come here and say they will never make raid easy mode so this discussion finish once and for all :expressionless: