Chickenooble.5014 Posted December 2, 2017 Share Posted December 2, 2017 Braham is back and he whined about Jormag within the first few minutes of returning. That's all the dude does... whine, whine, whine. Even Taimi wasn't really whining that much when she was suffocating in her golem. Then he whines again. I demand you guys find a way to kill Braham in the next episode. Have a crystal dragon minion impale him against a tree for all I care. Just get rid of him. Thanks, Me <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzet.3614 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 Thats how you know they have done a good job creating a charactar when you care enough to hate or love it on personality alone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zalani.9827 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @Rezzet.3614 said: > Thats how you know they have done a good job creating a charactar when you care enough to hate or love it on personality alone Gotta agree on giving props to anet for creating a polarizing character like this. Even if the bloodthirstyness from people on this forum is pretty weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 How you know someone hasn't gone through character design.... They have no idea what Character Arcs are and don't understand Braham is the walking incarnation of a Redemption story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tekfan.3179 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 I can't really say I hate emo-norn that much. He's annoying, yeah, but more like a bug or glitch. He basically takes screen time from other characters. Anet took way too short of a time to turn Bro-ham Eirson into emo-norn, who behaved completely different to his usual character. Even if you took EN into Mordremoths mind and fought side by side with him to purify the memory which accused him of ending Eirs legend, he will simply hate you for not getting his way and that your top-priority is not to run around with an Eir-banner to hold up her legacy. To get his precious scroll, he doesn't care that Rox was frozen. Even though Jory and Kasmeer are his friends, he dismisses the troubles in their homeland as some human nonsense that doesn't affect him. And now, when he saves the commander and is thanked for it, he says his instincts kicked in, suggesting he doesn't even care about the lives of former comrades. This coming from the guy who grew up protecting a whole village and slipped into the role of a big brother for Taimi. He could just as well have said that he doesn't let people die, jabbing at the commander from the angle how people died under his/her command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alimar.8760 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 Don't like Braham personally. But even though, he's an ok character. What I find really polarizing is that he has time to express his hatred of your character while you mention you're trying to save Taimi and she's living on borrowed time. A few things to note though, Is that I feel personally the writers overlooked which race he was from. Norn culture means they should celebrate heroic deaths and deaths by combat. That's kinda their deal. Braham should be out there drinking and telling stories of how great his mother was, not mourning her. Personally I feel that they wrote his character from a more human perspective than from someone who wasn't. Despite him looking human, he's completely Norn and really act in that manner. I get he was estranged from his mother, but that doesn't really explain how polarizing his attitude has been. Because if he was as estranged as he was supposedly been, her death shouldn't really have impacted him as much as it has. Unless it's a regret that he was hoping to get to know her and actually have a mother for a change. Either way, I think explaining his reasons behind his choices rather than just having him constantly complain to us would be a good change. All in all, I look forward to what further story Braham is involved in, even if I don't like him personally. Doesn't mean he's a terrible character. Not all characters need or should be loved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenooble.5014 Posted December 3, 2017 Author Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > How you know someone hasn't gone through character design.... What is that? A class? I study real things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @Zalani.9827 said: > > @Rezzet.3614 said: > > Thats how you know they have done a good job creating a charactar when you care enough to hate or love it on personality alone > > Gotta agree on giving props to anet for creating a polarizing character like this. > > Even if the bloodthirstyness from people on this forum is pretty weird. Polarizing? Is there anyone that actually LIKES current Braham? But i was kind of happy to see him back. Hopefully the interactions will be improved this time, and the commander, having added a freaking god notch to his buckle, will be a bit more harsh towards Braham. The time to respect his grief is gone, this is 2 years later, and the kid's only been messing about, potentially end-of-the-world messes... So yeah, it's high time we step in show him that he's been making an ass of himself. Because, yes, "A crack in the ice" was the most jarring, most immersion-breaking piece of story i've seen so far. My Norn guy who looks like he could be Brahm's dad, who was mentored by Eir herself, who saved his mentor's life in at least 2 separate occasions. Who fought alongside her and Destiny's Edge vs Zaithan, who was the person who brought him together with the mother he hated. He's getting told by this freaking brat that would be dead if i hadn't saved him from himself vs the Molten Aliance, that **me** the guy who brought together Destiny's Edge again, is unfit to be in that Guild, and **he**, despite never having been a member, and there still being several surviving members who would happily accept me as their leader (like Ritlock did), he's the one that can decide my worth? And after this outrage, my character just stands there meekly? Yeah, no... At least this has to end soon. I can understand them writing our character letting that slide because he was in grief. I can understand we letting him risk the existence of the world over some misguided vendetta because we were otherwise occupied. But now? Now is the time when we get vindicated and take Braham down a peg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westenev.5289 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 This thread is a great way to show gratitude for a character who saved your characters life. If anything, based on his and Rox's interactions at the end, I would say he wants to make up – but is too stubborn to say sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @ReaverKane.7598 said: > > @Zalani.9827 said: > > > @Rezzet.3614 said: > > > Thats how you know they have done a good job creating a charactar when you care enough to hate or love it on personality alone > > > > Gotta agree on giving props to anet for creating a polarizing character like this. > > > > Even if the bloodthirstyness from people on this forum is pretty weird. > > Polarizing? > Is there anyone that actually LIKES current Braham? I didn't like former Braham either. The chip on his shoulder has just gotten bigger, along with his ego. I don't so much hate him as I'm annoyed that he gets in the way of everyone else. If _Fate's Razor_ was going to have an annoying tag-a-long, I would have preferred Caithe. I don't trust her (and I don't think the Commander should either), but at least she has multiple dimensions: she killed her best friend rather than let her love learn a terrible secret, she hid that secret from the world (thus risking all of Tyria), and all because she was convinced it was her job and hers alone to protect the sylvari — all good reasons for hating a protagonist. She's also reliable when it comes to staying with the egg & Aurene, she genuinely thinks she's a force for good (spoiler alert: not so much, no), & she never whines. She acts or fails to act, she makes mistakes or does the right thing. Caithe I could live with hating, whereas Braham is just something I want to clean off my windshield so I can see properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @Chickenooble.5014 said: > Braham is back and he whined about Jormag within the first few minutes of returning. That's all the dude does... whine, whine, whine. Even Taimi wasn't really whining that much when she was suffocating in her golem. Then he whines again. I demand you guys find a way to kill Braham in the next episode. Have a crystal dragon minion impale him against a tree for all I care. Just get rid of him. > > Thanks, > > Me <3 Maybe that could be the next community contest? Figure out the most creative way to kill off Braham? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @Rezzet.3614 said: > Thats how you know they have done a good job creating a charactar when you care enough to hate or love it on personality alone No. That's flawed thinking. There are characters people love, that's good. There are characters that people love to hate, the ones that do awful things but they are just compelling in their awfulness and make you want to see what they'll do next. That's good too. But then there are characters that you *hate* to hate, where they don't bring any benefit to the scenes they're in and you just want them off the screen. There's nothing commendable about that, it's fairly easy to do in any production where the viewer/player is actively enjoying the rest of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > How you know someone hasn't gone through character design.... > > They have no idea what Character Arcs are and don't understand Braham is the walking incarnation of a Redemption story. I don't want him redeemed, I want him impaled. I would be actively *upset* if they tried to rehabilitate his character into someone likable. I would read that as too much of a kitten-pull move, such a complete abandonment of everything written so far with the character, rather than a natural shift from one state to the next. I've read plenty of good redemption arcs, this cannot be one of them, it only has the potential to be a fiasco of a redemption arc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DearlyMe.5320 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 Yeah, maybe because she was _panicking._ Why would someone whine in that situation? Nice to see some more varied responses than the standard "Kill 'em." I want to see what they do with him, since it was obvious to me since Bitterfrost his is a redemption arc. He's being built up for something. Though I, too, would like to see our character snap at him. The most I've seen was us telling Taimi we "had no time for his tantrums" in Draconis Mons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayumi Spender.1082 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @Rezzet.3614 said: > Thats how you know they have done a good job creating a charactar when you care enough to hate or love it on personality alone I don't think it's a good job. I hate mary sues too and while they typically can't as they're mary sues.... I want them killed off as well. Braham is no mary sue, but I hate him just as much. EDIT: I should point out and say I really hate Lord Faren. Like reaaaaally hate Lord Faren. But you know what? I don't want anything to happen to him. He's one of those "I hate him, but keep him around as I can at least tolerate him and he's "alright" I guess." Same for other characters I just don't like. Braham and Taimi are 2 I just want gone for good. Hiding them in the background leaves chance of them coming back. I don't want that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chickenooble.5014 Posted December 3, 2017 Author Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @"Ayumi Spender.1082" said: > Braham and Taimi are 2 I just want gone for good. Hiding them in the background leaves chance of them coming back. I don't want that. Praise Joko... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > How you know someone hasn't gone through character design.... > > > > They have no idea what Character Arcs are and don't understand Braham is the walking incarnation of a Redemption story. > > I don't want him redeemed, I want him impaled. I would be actively *upset* if they tried to rehabilitate his character into someone likable. I would read that as too much of a kitten-pull move, such a complete abandonment of everything written so far with the character, rather than a natural shift from one state to the next. I've read plenty of good redemption arcs, this cannot be one of them, it only has the potential to be a fiasco of a redemption arc. Redemption doesn't mean likable. It comes in many forms from tragic, to comedic, and everything in-between. It's quite likely that the writers are intentionally designed him to have hubris be his primary folly just so he can be juxtaposed to Rox whose quite literally his polar opposite. This lets them have a very authentic relationship akin to brother and sister which is ironic considering both of their family past is in shambles. The most likely case for his redemption is in not saving us but saving someone more dear to him than his mother (the current source of his pride) could ever be, and that's Rox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 He just realized that the expansion is called path of fire...Ofc he is whining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayumi Spender.1082 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > How you know someone hasn't gone through character design.... > > > > > > They have no idea what Character Arcs are and don't understand Braham is the walking incarnation of a Redemption story. > > > > I don't want him redeemed, I want him impaled. I would be actively *upset* if they tried to rehabilitate his character into someone likable. I would read that as too much of a kitten-pull move, such a complete abandonment of everything written so far with the character, rather than a natural shift from one state to the next. I've read plenty of good redemption arcs, this cannot be one of them, it only has the potential to be a fiasco of a redemption arc. > > Redemption doesn't mean likable. > > It comes in many forms from tragic, to comedic, and everything in-between. It's quite likely that the writers are intentionally designed him to have hubris be his primary folly just so he can be juxtaposed to Rox whose quite literally his polar opposite. This lets them have a very authentic relationship akin to brother and sister which is ironic considering both of their family past is in shambles. The most likely case for his redemption is in not saving us but saving someone more dear to him than his mother (the current source of his pride) could ever be, and that's Rox. A Crack In The Ice. Case closed. He didn't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @TexZero.7910 said: > > @Ohoni.6057 said: > > > @TexZero.7910 said: > > > How you know someone hasn't gone through character design.... > > > > > > They have no idea what Character Arcs are and don't understand Braham is the walking incarnation of a Redemption story. > > > > I don't want him redeemed, I want him impaled. I would be actively *upset* if they tried to rehabilitate his character into someone likable. I would read that as too much of a kitten-pull move, such a complete abandonment of everything written so far with the character, rather than a natural shift from one state to the next. I've read plenty of good redemption arcs, this cannot be one of them, it only has the potential to be a fiasco of a redemption arc. > > Redemption doesn't mean likable. > > It comes in many forms from tragic, to comedic, and everything in-between. It's quite likely that the writers are intentionally designed him to have hubris be his primary folly just so he can be juxtaposed to Rox whose quite literally his polar opposite. This lets them have a very authentic relationship akin to brother and sister which is ironic considering both of their family past is in shambles. The most likely case for his redemption is in not saving us but saving someone more dear to him than his mother (the current source of his pride) could ever be, and that's Rox. So what? Him saving someone would not redeem him as a character. I mean, as a "real person," his behavior is not so unforgivable. He's a petulant child, and he's been rather reckless and self-absorbed, but he hasn't caused an irredeemable amount of damage. His flaws are not as a person, and cannot be fixed by "accomplishing" anything. His flaws are as a *character,* as someone who is meant to evoke positive engagement from the audience. He's just awful and unlikable, and they can't make him likable, regardless of what he may *achieve,* without completely ignoring his characterization to date (not shifting it in a natural way, but actively *ignoring* that he's been a complete brat this entire time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaher Dal.9503 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 I liked Braham when we first met him in season one. I even like how they used him in HoT to explain the Dragonhunter. His actions shortly after HoT came out of nowhere for me, and I felt bad for him, and then just annoyed by him after that. It was good to see him and Rox again, but then he had to go be all angsty teenager, with his whining again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @Rezzet.3614 said: > Thats how you know they have done a good job creating a charactar when you care enough to hate or love it on personality alone Yes, and no. I can't agree a character is well done when the first thing coming to mind when you see him is "oh boy, not this crap again". Come to think of it, for that approach to work the character has to be believable and Braham failed to convince me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadramar.8156 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @Rezzet.3614 said: > Thats how you know they have done a good job creating a charactar when you care enough to hate or love it on personality alone Disagree. Strong reaction does not equal good writing. The biggest problem with Braham, as has been pointed out many times by many people, is that the PC is his punching bag and we can't do a thing about it. It's one sign of the greater "the player character doesn't matter, all interaction is exclusively about the NPCs" problem. He got everyone's support and sympathy and time for himself in HoT (as opposed to a sylvari PC who got little more than suspicion and hostility from their so-called "friends") yet he still regressed into a complete brat, and it doesn't even matter whether or not you take him to the final fight so he can have his vengeance. Nor can you do cut his selfish rant in Ep3 short by reminding him that he's far from the only person who ever suffered or lost anyone. Charr PC? Lost their warband. Human PC? Potentially an orphaned streetrat. Sylvari PC? Put through hell and back nonstop since the attack on the World Summit, culminating in having to mercy-kill their oldest brother. Every PC? Lost their Order mentor and a bunch of loyal Pact soldiers. But we can't mention any of that because the PC is a faceless story-vehicle, and the NPCs can't possibly be expected to give a crap (see: their reaction or rather complete lack thereof after we bleeding _died_) while we are flat-out forced to care ever so much for them and their opinion of us despite the fact that we never get anything in return from any of them. That is _terrible_ writing. It's not even an imbalance, it's completely one-sided. It also doesn't make the other NPCs look any better for just letting him get away with it instead of standing up for their pretend-friend the PC, though props for Rytlock at least this time. I wouldn't mind Braham's behavior so much if we could give him a taste of his own medicine. If a sylvari PC in particular could blow the MOTHER of all fuses at him after everything we've been through without any support. If a norn PC could verbally rip him apart crosswise for shaming his mother's legend (a mother, one might add, whom he spent more time hating than not and whom the norn Commander knew better and longer than he did) and his totem Wolf, the pack-spirit. If a charr PC could go all High Legions officer on him and drag him like a snotty fahrar-brat. But we can't. We're mute, we have no history, no character, we're just there to illustrate _his_ character. LS3 was chock-full of that nonsense, and Braham's return and the whole Taimi-craze this episode (again: as opposed to the crickets we got after we literally died) don't make me hopeful for LS4 either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @Chadramar.8156 said: > The biggest problem with Braham, as has been pointed out many times by many people, is that the PC is his punching bag and we can't do a thing about it I'm not so much bothered by that. Some players seem to take a very ego-driven approach to the Commander, that she should be treated as a walking god by everyone in the story and always in charge, I've never felt that way about it. I dislike Braham because he's behaving like a petulant child in an adult's body. At least Taimi has an excuse for her more eccentric qualities in that she's an actual teenager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadramar.8156 Posted December 3, 2017 Share Posted December 3, 2017 > @Ohoni.6057 said: > I'm not so much bothered by that. Some players seem to take a very ego-driven approach to the Commander, that she should be treated as a walking god by everyone in the story and always in charge, I've never felt that way about it. A few people are that way, granted, but that has nothing to do with my basic criticism. I for one liked Trahearne and was more than fine "just" being his second-in-command, and I see a colossal difference between empty ego-stroking for the PC on one hand, and the PC being able to express themselves, being treated as having a past and a culture, and receiving actual friendship-gestures from their so-called "friends" on the other hand. The former is not a replacement for the latter. I'd still be beyond sick and tired with the story-writing if everyone and their grandmother was all "OMG U R TEH CHOSEN WUN!!!" at me yet still never wasted a single breath on asking me how I feel. All I want is some partity and reciprocity when it comes to the writing and the PC/NPC interactions.´ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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