[Spoiler] ArenaNet, why did you do what you did in the final story mission of LS4 Ep1?!

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Chadramar.8156 said:

> > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > I'm not so much bothered by that. Some players seem to take a very ego-driven approach to the Commander, that she should be treated as a walking god by everyone in the story and always in charge, I've never felt that way about it.

>

> A few people are that way, granted, but that has nothing to do with my basic criticism. I for one liked Trahearne and was more than fine "just" being his second-in-command, and I see a colossal difference between empty ego-stroking for the PC on one hand, and the PC being able to express themselves, being treated as having a past and a culture, and receiving actual friendship-gestures from their so-called "friends" on the other hand. The former is not a replacement for the latter. I'd still be beyond sick and tired with the story-writing if everyone and their grandmother was all "OMG U R TEH CHOSEN WUN!!!" at me yet still never wasted a single breath on asking me how I feel. All I want is some partity and reciprocity when it comes to the writing and the PC/NPC interactions.´

 

I can get that. I guess the push-pull there is, they already have ten different commanders to include every race and voice combination, so every voiced line of dialog the commander has needs to be done ten times. Given that, they would only want to have one version for each of these lines. Given that, they try to have these lines be as neutral and goal-oriented as possible, something that any player could reasonably hear themselves saying in those circumstances. As cool as it would be to have a Commander that is exactly as snarky, or mad, or patient, or raging as you feel in a given moment, it would be more jarring for someone who came in feeling very differently.

 

Now, they could perhaps do a little more with the text-only dialog portions to give you genuine conversational options, but ultimately there are limits to what they can reasonably do in the voiced dialog, and also to how significantly one player can be allowed to diverge from another. Even in text dialog you could not, for example, so ruthlessly upbraid Braham that he couldn't reasonably work with you anymore, because they will have to write him in at some point later, and he'd have to react exactly the same to you as he would to a Commander who was very sympathetic and patient with his behavior.

 

It really is a tough balancing act for a game writer to let players feel like they have some personal influence over the story, while at the same time maintaining a consistent flow from action to action.

[Cragga the Eighty Third.60]

But the PC is supposed to be the noble and strong hero, who can withstand all of their own tragedies to save others. I don't want to spend my game time being pitied and sympathized with, I want to save the world, because that is the hero's goal. Not enough reaction when you died? Maybe because the other characters either can't fully grasp that the only hope of the world is dead, and are in shock, or have faith in your ability to return even from death. Which, of course, we have done. I can live without being Tom Sawyer walking into his own funeral and seeing how miserable everyone is.

 

[Drecien.4508]

I saw we use that bow of Eir's to impale him. or let him go hunt down Jourmag and get eaten/corrupted. I'd gladly stab him like i did ol treehern. I'd even use the same saladbolg on him. :) #brahammustdie

[Koryander.3249]

I mean, the raid is in the Underworld and Grenth peaced out. I'm grabbing Eir and having her kick some sense back into her son.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

> @Koryander.3249 said:

> I mean, the raid is in the Underworld and Grenth peaced out. I'm grabbing Eir and having her kick some sense back into her son.

 

Or... you know... tell her, "Um... can you take him and keep him down here with you? He misses you anyway and he can even get to see you and his father again. I'll head back up and do important things while you knock some sense into him down here."

[TexZero.7910]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > @Ohoni.6057 said:

> > > > @TexZero.7910 said:

> > > > How you know someone hasn't gone through character design....

> > > >

> > > > They have no idea what Character Arcs are and don't understand Braham is the walking incarnation of a Redemption story.

> > >

> > > I don't want him redeemed, I want him impaled. I would be actively *upset* if they tried to rehabilitate his character into someone likable. I would read that as too much of a kitten-pull move, such a complete abandonment of everything written so far with the character, rather than a natural shift from one state to the next. I've read plenty of good redemption arcs, this cannot be one of them, it only has the potential to be a fiasco of a redemption arc.

> >

> > Redemption doesn't mean likable.

> >

> > It comes in many forms from tragic, to comedic, and everything in-between. It's quite likely that the writers are intentionally designed him to have hubris be his primary folly just so he can be juxtaposed to Rox whose quite literally his polar opposite. This lets them have a very authentic relationship akin to brother and sister which is ironic considering both of their family past is in shambles. The most likely case for his redemption is in not saving us but saving someone more dear to him than his mother (the current source of his pride) could ever be, and that's Rox.

>

> So what? Him saving someone would not redeem him as a character. I mean, as a "real person," his behavior is not so unforgivable. He's a petulant child, and he's been rather reckless and self-absorbed, but he hasn't caused an irredeemable amount of damage. His flaws are not as a person, and cannot be fixed by "accomplishing" anything. His flaws are as a *character,* as someone who is meant to evoke positive engagement from the audience. He's just awful and unlikable, and they can't make him likable, regardless of what he may *achieve,* without completely ignoring his characterization to date (not shifting it in a natural way, but actively *ignoring* that he's been a complete brat this entire time).

 

It's almost like you think all people are the same person they are today that they were as teens....This explains why you think Braham is incapable of growth and self-reflection.

 

It's already been shown that he knows he's hot headed and even might have wanted to address the situation between himself and the commander, however the timing and place were not suited for it as there was a friends life to be saved. The story is at a point where there's plenty of time for growth through combat and once that's over there will be time for growth through reflection (see Eir's death / Trahearne's memorial / Logan's "promotion").

 

There's always time for characters to grow and its on the writers to make it feel fluid, so far they've been fine on that.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @TexZero.7910 said:

>It's almost like you think all people are the same person they are today that they were as teens....This explains why you think Braham is incapable of growth and self-reflection.

 

Again, Braham *as a person* could easily be capable of growth, I don't doubt that for a second. I am pointing out that *as a fictional character, I do not want to follow him on that journey.* Their efforts so far have placed him so far outside my orbit as a character I want to like, that I would *resent* any efforts they made to try and ingratiate him to me. He may have a fulfilling life ahead of him, I just have no interest in playing a part in it.

[CrusaderMichael.9245]

> @Chickenooble.5014 said:

> Braham is back and he whined about Jormag within the first few minutes of returning. That's all the dude does... whine, whine, whine. Even Taimi wasn't really whining that much when she was suffocating in her golem. Then he whines again. I demand you guys find a way to kill Braham in the next episode. Have a crystal dragon minion impale him against a tree for all I care. Just get rid of him.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Me <3

 

haha... my thoughts exactly... i wanted the guy dead the instant i saw him.

 

Honestly, I don't like any of the characters.

 

I hope Zinn is really not dead but in hiding, and wipes them all out, and uses Taimi's head as a hood ornament for M.O.X.

[Cynz.9437]

Braham is teenager basically. Teenagers tend to be annoying. He will grow up (at least this is how usually stories go, lol).

[Ildrid Ildhjertet.2489]

My initial reaction when Braham and Rox popped out: "Oh kitten no GET LOST you kitten kitten kitten!", not aimed at Rox as I like her, but at Braham. When he started whining I was like "Well get lost then, Taimi don't want your help." And when he stuck around I figured "Well he's going to use this to point out how brave/helpful/useful/heroic he is at some point." At this point I'd prefer it if Rox came back alone and said Braham had been corrupted by Jormag and she took it upon herself to put him down.

 

He doesn't deserve screen time at this point, some mail exchange or Rox running back and forth with messages until he's cooled down and contemplated over how his been acting since Eir's death would be more appropriate.

[Chadramar.8156]

> @Ohoni.6057 said:

> Given that, they try to have these lines be as neutral and goal-oriented as possible, something that any player could reasonably hear themselves saying in those circumstances. As cool as it would be to have a Commander that is exactly as snarky, or mad, or patient, or raging as you feel in a given moment, it would be more jarring for someone who came in feeling very differently.

 

But that is exactly the problem that we have _now_. It is impossible to have writing that "any player" could identify with. And I'd be kinda-sorta down with a "neutral, goal-oriented" writing if that was what we actually got. No snarking around, no freaking out over Taimi, no worrying about Braham's opinion of us. Get with the mission or get out, basically. It'd be unsatisfying in terms of characterization, but it would still be much better than the NPCs just, essentially, being emotional parasites who constantly demand care and support and sympathy but (almost) never give a nanosecond of it back. That isn't friendship, and it's one reason for why I'd much rather have the Pact back than these yokels.

 

> Now, they could perhaps do a little more with the text-only dialog portions to give you genuine conversational options,

 

That's what I'm hoping for, mainly. I know that fully voiced racial dialog and RP options are off the table for the most part, but I'd be more than happy with the conversation-window approach.

 

> Even in text dialog you could not, for example, so ruthlessly upbraid Braham that he couldn't reasonably work with you anymore, because they will have to write him in at some point later, and he'd have to react exactly the same to you as he would to a Commander who was very sympathetic and patient with his behavior.

 

Sure. But again: why is that concern only ever extended one way? Why is there no apparent consideration for whether _we_ may ever want to work with _him_ again? Why can several of the NPCs express hostility against sylvari throughout HoT, in a sylvari player's face, with no consequences? You can't constantly hobble the PC for the sake of the NPCs, while never expecting even the slightest bit of remorse or restraint or consideration from _them_. The sole exception is Caithe, which is why I actually like her again after LS2 and early HoT tanked my opinion of her. She knows and, most of all, openly acknowledges that she screwed up and betrayed our trust, and she wants to make amends. That's not enough for everyone, I know, but it's still so much more than we ever got from anyone else.

 

> It really is a tough balancing act for a game writer to let players feel like they have some personal influence over the story, while at the same time maintaining a consistent flow from action to action.

 

My problem is that the only place that they seem to be cutting corners to make the balancing act "work" is with the player character. The supposed _protagonist_. That is messed up and it does very much _not_ work IMO.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @Chadramar.8156 said:

> Sure. But again: why is that concern only ever extended one way? Why is there no apparent consideration for whether we may ever want to work with him again? Why can several of the NPCs express hostility against sylvari throughout HoT, in a sylvari player's face, with no consequences?

 

Because it would be a huge production burden to tell the same story both with and without Braham playing a role. They need to pick one main path and then try to justify it to all players as best they can.

 

 

 

[melociraptors.9835]

I think the biggest problem with this "petulant Braham" story arc is that it's taking WAY too long to come to a satisfying conclusion. It's good storytelling to have characters that change, grow, regress, create conflict, and put the reader off at times. Being likeable is not equal to being a good person, hero, or saying all the things we expect them to do (look at Joko for an example of this.) What grates me about Braham's decision is that it's not paying off. A Crack in the Ice was a big smack in the face when he intentionally didn't care about hurting Rox, attacked the commander for our choices, and then decided to lead the Norn to attack Jormag. And you may have hated this and Braham at the time, but they did right by having Braham develop his character by making mistakes and taking big steps in the wrong direction. Instead of being our lackey that followed us around and didn't do much, he was actively creating conflict - the final cutscene where he shot his arrow into the tooth...I mean that should have been a BIG catalyst for the plot.

 

Then...it wasn't? They hecked it up by never resolving it. They let the tension from this interaction fade from our minds as we basically never heard from Braham again throughout the rest of LW3 and all the way through Path of Fire. NOBODY says anything about what he did, aside from "He's probably mad we snoozed Jormag" so the fact that he ever was in opposition to us essentially means nothing. If it weren't for people occasionally making threads about how much they hate Braham, I would have forgotten about him entirely. If we are never made to care about getting Braham back in our good graces from a story perspective, people sure aren't going to care about it from a player's perspective.

 

Unless the devs are playing a very long game with his character (and I have some suspicions of what that may be) it feels "too little too late" to hear from him at this point in the plot when the only impression his outburst left on us is that he's just being "whiny", "emo", "out of character", or whatever else. I did like Braham. I wish we had seen him confront us after Flashpoint about taking away his opportunity to kill Jormag and establish his legend. I wish we could have FOUGHT him - what a catharsis that would be for us and what a humiliation that would have been for Braham. Losing a fight against someone he's condemned and called a coward is honestly a better reason for him to have been MIA for so long rather than....uh, whatever he has been doing? And it would make me like him a heck of a lot more as a nemesis.

[Shirlias.8104]

> @Chickenooble.5014 said:

> Braham is back and he whined about Jormag within the first few minutes of returning. That's all the dude does... whine, whine, whine. Even Taimi wasn't really whining that much when she was suffocating in her golem. Then he whines again. I demand you guys find a way to kill Braham in the next episode. Have a crystal dragon minion impale him against a tree for all I care. Just get rid of him.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Me <3

 

He would have died instead of helping Joko, so... better kill someone else.

But it something which DW should have thought about before bringing in a child.

 

 

[serialkicker.5274]

> @Rezzet.3614 said:

> Thats how you know they have done a good job creating a charactar when you care enough to hate or love it on personality alone

 

Well that's such a overused lame excuse. In that case Trahearne was a great character. Or Preston Garvey.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

I genuinely felt bad for him when his mother died. I did. I was right there with him, and I even gave him a little bit of leeway to get through all of his fee-fees about it.

 

But now? Now its time to grow up, and he just hasn't. Now he's just an insipid whining twit of a manchild that can kindly go play with the sharks for all I care. There is nothing to redeem at this point. He can go back and drink with his norn buddies and complain about his life or he can STFU and take orders like a good soldier in this fight against forces trying to destroy the world. He's no longer needed and I'd be happy to see him get eaten by Kralky at this point.

[TexZero.7910]

> @melociraptors.9835 said:

> Unless the devs are playing a very long game with his character (and I have some suspicions of what that may be)

I'm no dev, but i can tell you they are. It's even clearer with the most recent chapter.

[Cyrin.1035]

> @Rezzet.3614 said:

> Thats how you know they have done a good job creating a charactar when you care enough to hate or love it on personality alone

 

IMO, I wouldn’t call creating an unlikable character or making a character unlikable a good job. It’s the easiest and worst thing a writer can do to their character and what any amateur writer has done.

 

Braham started out intelligent and interesting and then he was turned into this. Just because he’s now the opposite doesn’t make him a complex and well-written character. Making him conflicted in a way that makes us still support his endeavor or admire him would have been a better job in writing. At this point I neither agree with, admire, like, or can stand the character anymore.

 

This is just making characters their opposite without properly developing them to that point.

 

Braham isn’t just hated on personality, but also his words, ideas, plans, and his actions.

[Toolbox.9375]

> @Rezzet.3614 said:

> Thats how you know they have done a good job creating a charactar when you care enough to hate or love it on personality alone

 

I hate Wendy Koopa for her personality, too. Absolutely does not make her a good character. :P

[Cragga the Eighty Third.60]

Well, Braham is a big, fluffy twerp, but in spite of all his whining, he rezzed me several times when I was down, so I can no longer loathe him completely. I'd have had several checkpoint restarts without his assistance. Ready for his attack of self-awareness and apologetic remorse ANY time now.

[hugo.4705]

I hate braham, and I hate Trahearne more than him, a good new that we killed him in HoT story. But I have to take him on my back again everytime I make a new toon... I don't like much all the characters of the current guild... Rytlock is still my fav with Taimi, all the others are useless at my eyes. It's not a real bloodthirst... When you hate somebody too much you just want him to suffer/die but it's limited to your mind because you can't actually do anything about that; it's a virtual character and since they are "your allies" you can't hit them... This game is soo restrictive.. I remember in the PoF story with Kasmeer at Amnoon: YOU MUST CHOOSE SUNSPEAR, you haven't choose them! choose them!! It's soo anoying! In a game where you censed to be free of your acts... I have been forced to kill Kudu and Caudecus against my voluntee, and more: Balthazar is my chosen god in character creation and I'v killed him...

[Dashiva.6149]

I don't mind his VA (Sam Riegel is great) but the character is so underwhelmingly written that I lost all interest in him loooong ago. I remain convinced that he is a weak human in disguise because no Norn would have such big issues about death, considering the invidualistic culture of their race and that few die of old age. Jora was forced to _kill her own brother_, and didn't turn into a psycho.

 

The best opportunity they had for him so far for some good character development would have been when he arrived back in Hoelbrak, fired his arrow at the tooth of Jormag and _the arrow shattered against it._ Braham would have been dumbfounded, realized that the dragons are much bigger than him and his issues and rejoined our party as a new, slighty wiser person.

But that didn't happen.

 

Braham is a poor representation of a race otherwise full of badasses.

 

Edit: And poor Rox got the short stick again. I wanna see more of her, but she keeps being stuck in the sidelines! Digging her new outfit though.

[Therys.4368]

I feel like they missed an opportunity in LS4. The instant he hears of Taimi in danger, I wished his Big Brother instincts would've kicked in. That suddenly there are more important things than his pride and resentment. That the possibility of losing another person dear to him is much more important. The little Asura he had always guarded while she was working on the leyline re-calibrator, who then also saved his life in Rata Novus, now needs him more than ever. He should've just charged in screaming. He's no stranger to doing that. But no. instead lets start blaming the Commander again. He treats the Commander like a personal enemy or life-long rival, not the comrade we met and fought alongside since Flame and Frost. I get it, lets try to make him more than a dumb ker-braham person. Here, have some emotions.

 

He does not have a justifiable reason to hate the commander. If it was unjustifiable anger brought on by anguish, reason and logic that he has shown earlier should've taken over by now because anger burns itself out. You know what this is? I think this is the "idiot plot". The plot that happens because a character is being an idiot. Often seen in horror movies just so people die or in children's cartoons to create drama. The simmering resentment in him now, that has lasted this long, flies in the face of what the commander and him have been through and prior posts have made long lists backing this.

 

Remember Anakin Skywalker in the prequels growing up and then hating Obi Wan? **This is worse than that.**