ANet, please officially alter the three pillars

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Seera.5916" said:

> There you go assuming that casuals' have a long term goal of legendary envoy armor again.

 

You are a self professed casual, you admit to having Legendary long term goals from the start.. Doesn't seem unreasonable to think you are not alone.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> More 'doom and gloom...the game will die' if flavor-of-the-post demand isn't met.

>

> So far, none of these dire predictions have seemed to come true.

 

Really?

 

How long have you been watching?

 

Let me give you some "Doom and Gloom" just for comedy sake.

 

1999's.. EQ. We have 12 - 24 hour spawn camps, Open world weekly across the whole server Dragon raids, Kill Stealing, and Limited Rare loot, and.. Ninja Looting.

 

* EQ Casuals made a fuss that Long Spawn Camps, Kill Stealing, and rare loot drops made the game "Unfun" They said everyone should have equal access to getting the gear.

* EQ Elitist Cried back: Spawn Camps, Kill Stealing and Rare drops keep the loot special, it keeps it important, it validates our efforts.

 

WoW gets Launched in 2006. Brings with it instance Based Content, Now everyone can do a raid or kill that rare spawn.

 

After 6 years of continual growth EQ looses **80% of it's population that year**.

 

A few years pass, an it's 2011

 

* WoW Casuals: This whole DKP, and rare raid drops, where only 5 people out of 50 that showed up get any worthwhile loot, is not fun.

* WoW Elitist: We need that rare loot to keep our loot special,it keeps it important, it validates our efforts.

 

GW2 Announces a new style of MMO, Sets an idea where everyone who participates gets a trophy, removes Kill Stealing, and removal of gear grind.

 

WoW's 6 years of consecutive growth **stops**, and Between GW2 announcement in 2011, and its launch in 2012, WoW had **lost 2 Million accounts**, and is still in decline today.

 

So.. yah.. doom gloom.. sun shine and butterflies.. maybe it's nothing... maybe it's not. Some of us have been watching long enough to know when that old dance is coming back.

[Ayrilana.1396]

To be honest, if anyone is going to compare different sets of data and infer something from them (e.g. MMO population), they should understand the difference between causation and correlation first.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Evidence? I think a lot of people have at least one Legendary weapon by this point. I got my first well before HoT came out. I'm not asking for anything crazy here, just Legendary armor that's more in line with Legendary weapons.

> >

>

> https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendarySkinsWeapon

> Remember the players on gw2efficiency are the most hardcore players in existence, yet Legendary Weapon skins start at 41%, this includes the G1 Legendary weapons too, the players had 5 years to craft them. If the hardcore players are at 41% the casual players should be much lower.

 

You're kind of looking at those numbers funny. Legendary weapons would require a more casual player to have spent a large amount of time in the game (unless they cash-bought them). Looking at general population numbers is rather unhelpful for that. Look instead at the hours figures, 75% of players who spent more than 4000 hours in the game (roughly two hours a day since launch) have at least one. Half of the players that spent 2000 hours in game (averaging an hour a day) have at least one. 20% of the half-hour per day players have one, which doesn't seem at all unreasonable. And that's just the people who *have* one and have reported it to Efficiency, that doesn't mean that those who don't have one have completely given up on the idea of having one. In the case of both of mine, the time between making the decision to go for it and getting it took less than a couple weeks, having long since completed some of the more time consuming requirements.

 

>If the farming isn't exceptional then why is it that so few (hardcore) people have Legendary weapons, even though they had 5 years to farm for them.

 

Each person likely has their own reasons. Maybe they don't like the weapons that fit their preferred classes. Maybe they could afford to get one but don't care enough to spend that cost. I could probably get another couple Legendary weapons right now if I really wanted to burn myself out, but none of the ones available interest me enough to do that at the moment. Just because someone hasn't done something is no reason to believe that they can't, or won't eventually.

 

>It's not a separate topic at all, you can't call Raids a separate pillar when you spend more time in the Open World than in Raids, when you need to Raid. And then you go on and say that WVW and PVP are the same when you can play both without ever touching the other, or Open World, or Raids, or Fractals.

 

I was speaking in terms of gameplay style. The play style of sPvP and WvW are far more compatible than the play styles of open world PvE and raiding. That the developers have chosen to muddle how rewards have been handled between these modes is part of the point of this thread.

 

>I think by what you've said so far that you are by no means a casual player. You think you are a casual because you play the more "casual" parts of the game, but that doesn't make you a casual.

 

I'm a challenge-casual, not a time-casual. I'm even a time casual in one sense, in that I don't like to spend extraordinary amounts of time bound to a single activity (ie spending hours and hours trying to master a raid), but I've certainly put in more _total_ hours than a true time casual. But I definitely am not a challenge-hardcore, while I've taken on some moderate challenges, and at least attempted the more difficult stuff, I know that I do not enjoy that sort of content, and never will.

 

>You don't want legendary armor skins for all casual players, but for players like you, a hybrid between the two.

 

All players are hybrids, no players are purely any one thing. I 100% unashamedly want things that benefit hybrid players.

 

>And since you offered the polls of these forums as "evidence" of more people liking Open World, I'd say that those are irrelevant. How many of those players who prefer open world pve HAVE a Legendary Weapon? That's the part of the playerbase you want to give Legendary Armor access to and I wonder how many they actually are to warrant a change by Arenanet.

 

More data would always be appreciated.

 

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> You're kind of looking at those numbers funny.

>

 

You kinda look at the numbers funny. That's the total number of players who have a legendary weapon, not only those who play in the open world. It's also safe to assume that every single raider has at least one legendary weapon, which reduces the amount of open world farmers like yourself that have one considerably.

 

> Each person likely has their own reasons.

 

That's not a argument and doesn't help you the least bit. If they are so useless they shouldn't even make legendary weapons anymore. After all if the majority of the players, especially the open world-only players, do not even have one legendary weapon, they don't need legendary armor either.

 

> I was speaking in terms of gameplay style. The play style of sPvP and WvW are far more compatible than the play styles of open world PvE and raiding. That the developers have chosen to muddle how rewards have been handled between these modes is part of the point of this thread.

>

 

The developers didn't muddle anything, and this thread has no point.

Gameplay style between PVP and WVW is fundamentally different. They have very little in common (if any), one is close quarters node based team pvp, the other can be any kind of different things. They don't even use the same set of rules. Open World PVE and Raiding are essentially the exact same gameplay, same rules, only less players allowed in Raids. Open World PVE and Raids are the exact same thing gameplay wise, PVP and WVW are completely different.

 

> I'm a challenge-casual, not a time-casual.

>

 

So stop using poll results showing people who like the open world as your argument :)

The people that you want to give legendary armor to fulfill two criteria:

a) They have a legendary weapon if they are older players (to know what the grind is), your argument "they might not like them" can also be said about the armor, so it's irrelevant. You either love the epic grind or you don't, there is no middle ground.

b) Play only in the open world exclusively, but only if they are also legendary hunters. If they are casually moving around the open world, they are not the target audience.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> You kinda look at the numbers funny. That's the total number of players who have a legendary weapon, not only those who play in the open world. It's also safe to assume that every single raider has at least one legendary weapon, which reduces the amount of open world farmers like yourself that have one considerably.

 

But the numbers for people who have any Legendary armor are considerably lower than the number of people with at least one Legendary weapon in any given time arc.

 

>That's not a argument and doesn't help you the least bit. If they are so useless they shouldn't even make legendary weapons anymore. After all if the majority of the players, especially the open world-only players, do not even have one legendary weapon, they don't need legendary armor either.

 

That's a spurious argument, it's like saying that if the majority of people don't have coffee then they don't need doughnuts either. A player can want Legendary armor without having any particular desire for the existing weapons. The two have nothing to do with each other.

 

>Gameplay style between PVP and WVW is fundamentally different. They have very little in common (if any), one is close quarters node based team pvp, the other can be any kind of different things. They don't even use the same set of rules. Open World PVE and Raiding are essentially the exact same gameplay, same rules, only less players allowed in Raids.

 

Gameplay style between raids and open world PvE is fundamentally different. They have very little in common (if any), one is close quarters node based team PvE, the other can be any kind of different things. They don't even use the same set of rules. WvW and sPvP are essentially the exact same gameplay, same rules, only less players allowed in sPvP.

 

>So stop using poll results showing people who like the open world as your argument :)

 

Why? People who like open world IS my argument. They are the ones not being served by the current system that requires them to raid to get Envoy armor.

 

>a) They have a legendary weapon if they are older players (to know what the grind is), your argument "they might not like them" can also be said about the armor, so it's irrelevant. You either love the epic grind or you don't, there is no middle ground.

 

It's not about "people who love epic grind," it's about people being able to get what they want. If they don't want something, there's no need for them to have it. If they don't want legendary weapons, and therefore don't have any, but do want legendary armor, the former doesn't negate their right to want the latter.

 

>b) Play only in the open world exclusively, but only if they are also legendary hunters. If they are casually moving around the open world, they are not the target audience.

 

I'm genuinely not sure what the point of this statement is or how I should respond to it.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> But the numbers for people who have any Legendary armor are considerably lower than the number of people with at least one Legendary weapon in any given time arc.

>

 

That's because Legendary Armor has been around for much less amount of time.

Also, about 50% of the players with 4k+ hours have reached Fractal level 100. About 27% has max rank in PVP, and 71% have more than rank 200 in WvW. Those are NOT open world exclusive players.

 

> That's a spurious argument, it's like saying that if the majority of people don't have coffee then they don't need doughnuts either. A player can want Legendary armor without having any particular desire for the existing weapons. The two have nothing to do with each other.

>

 

This is getting funny but here you are saying that there are loads of players who only play in the open world that have no desire to get any of the legendary weapons, but they will all jump to make legendary armor if it was available.

 

> Gameplay style between raids and open world PvE is fundamentally different. They have very little in common (if any), one is close quarters node based team PvE, the other can be any kind of different things. They don't even use the same set of rules. WvW and sPvP are essentially the exact same gameplay, same rules, only less players allowed in sPvP.

>

 

Raids and open world pve use the same rules. Haven't you seen how PVP and WVW use different types of gear stats, different types of runes, different types of sigils. Also, there are skill splits that make skill work differently between WVW and PVP. On the other hand Raids and Open World PVE use the same rules so I don't even understand where you got the idea about rules being different.

 

> Why? People who like open world IS my argument.

>

 

No they are not. Those who like open world do not have legendary weapons either. You want to give them access to more legendary items, when they don't even have desire for the current ones. Your argument is for a very specific, really small, subset of open world players. Those who are hardcore farmers and want legendary armor, not every casual open world exclusive player.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>Also, about 50% of the players with 4k+ hours have reached Fractal level 100. About 27% has max rank in PVP, and 71% have more than rank 200 in WvW. Those are NOT open world exclusive players.

 

True, but neither do those numbers represent the entirety of the player population.

 

>This is getting funny but here you are saying that there are loads of players who only play in the open world that have no desire to get any of the legendary weapons, but they will all jump to make legendary armor if it was available.

 

Not all, whoever said that ALL open world players would go through the effort to get Legendary armor? "All" players don't want anything. But *enough* would, it would present a positive long term goal to *enough* players to be worth doing. If even 1/4 of open world players began actively pursuing Legendary armor then that would already be more players than currently raid.

 

>Raids and open world pve use the same rules. Haven't you seen how PVP and WVW use different types of gear stats, different types of runes, different types of sigils. Also, there are skill splits that make skill work differently between WVW and PVP. On the other hand Raids and Open World PVE use the same rules so I don't even understand where you got the idea about rules being different.

 

For the most part you can achieve PvP stat balances in WvW and PvE, you just have to go about it a different way. And yes, they split certain abilities for PvP, and many have argued that they *should* do the same for WvW, given how they often have to nerf abilities in all game modes to accommodate some imbalance that is only a factor in WvW. That they haven't already seems to be some sort of miscalculation on their part when designing the game, and the entire point of this thread is to get them to consider re-evaluating those positions and recognizing the current state of the game.

 

No two game modes are *identical,* they all have their differences, but raids are certainly more different from open world PvE than WvW is from sPvP.

 

>No they are not. Those who like open world do not have legendary weapons either.

 

Sure they do.

 

>You want to give them access to more legendary items, when they don't even have desire for the current ones.

 

Sure, because at least some of them would desire the legendary armor, whether or not they desire the weapons available. I don't understand why I have to keep explaining that this has nothing to do with having "enough" things," with having a "pile" of things that are all equally valuable and having "more" of them is better than having "less." This has nothing to do with quantitative arguments. This is bout having the things you *want* to have, and if that means that having 1 thing out of twenty is important to you when having 19 out of the 20 didn't matter to you, then that's a perfectly legitimate position to hold.

 

>Your argument is for a very specific, really small, subset of open world players. Those who are hardcore farmers and want legendary armor, not every casual open world exclusive player.

 

Where's your data on that one?

[Seera.5916]

I took casual in the context of this discussion as the player who's not likely to raid for reasons other than solely too little time. Because there are just too many valid definitions of casual.

 

Most casuals just care about skins and not necessarily the functionality. Casuals don't tend to need to have the best build for everything and will likely just 1-2 builds and that's easy enough to deal with without the stat swap ability of legendary items. Most of the feedback I've seen related to envoy armor is that it's ugly. If most people who didn't want to raid really wanted the armor, we would have seen a lot more threads pop up about how the armor is locked behind raids and not just the small handful that exist. Or a lot more unique posters in the ones that exist.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> >Also, about 50% of the players with 4k+ hours have reached Fractal level 100. About 27% has max rank in PVP, and 71% have more than rank 200 in WvW. Those are NOT open world exclusive players.

>

> True, but neither do those numbers represent the entirety of the player population.

>

 

This returns back to the original. The amount of players who play open world exclusively are less likely to have a legendary weapon, making the addition of legendary armor for them doubtful.

 

Data shows that the amount of players who have a legendary weapon in the 4k hour bracket is 70%.

The number of players that are fractal runners, that is at least went beyond T1, is 88%

The number of players that reached rank 25 in PVP (the rank needed to start Ranked games) is 83%

The number of players that reached rank 100 in WvW is 84%

In other words, at least on gw2efficiency, the number of players that are pure open world runners is very limited.

 

Do you have any kind of data to prove that those who run open world exclusively also go after legendary weapons?

Or that they are even a high enough percentage of the population

 

> No two game modes are *identical,* they all have their differences, but raids are certainly more different from open world PvE than WvW is from sPvP.

>

 

But Raids and PVE are indeed the same mode, same rules. While WVW and PVP are completely different. That you claim otherwise is funny at best.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > >Also, about 50% of the players with 4k+ hours have reached Fractal level 100. About 27% has max rank in PVP, and 71% have more than rank 200 in WvW. Those are NOT open world exclusive players.

> >

> > True, but neither do those numbers represent the entirety of the player population.

> >

>

> This returns back to the original. The amount of players who play open world exclusively are less likely to have a legendary weapon, making the addition of legendary armor for them doubtful.

>

> Data shows that the amount of players who have a legendary weapon in the 4k hour bracket is 70%.

> The number of players that are fractal runners, that is at least went beyond T1, is 88%

> The number of players that reached rank 25 in PVP (the rank needed to start Ranked games) is 83%

> The number of players that reached rank 100 in WvW is 84%

> In other words, at least on gw2efficiency, the number of players that are pure open world runners is very limited.

>

> Do you have any kind of data to prove that those who run open world exclusively also go after legendary weapons?

> Or that they are even a high enough percentage of the population

>

> > No two game modes are *identical,* they all have their differences, but raids are certainly more different from open world PvE than WvW is from sPvP.

> >

>

> But Raids and PVE are indeed the same mode, same rules. While WVW and PVP are completely different. That you claim otherwise is funny at best.

 

Source ?

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > >Also, about 50% of the players with 4k+ hours have reached Fractal level 100. About 27% has max rank in PVP, and 71% have more than rank 200 in WvW. Those are NOT open world exclusive players.

> > >

> > > True, but neither do those numbers represent the entirety of the player population.

> > >

> >

> > This returns back to the original. The amount of players who play open world exclusively are less likely to have a legendary weapon, making the addition of legendary armor for them doubtful.

> >

> > Data shows that the amount of players who have a legendary weapon in the 4k hour bracket is 70%.

> > The number of players that are fractal runners, that is at least went beyond T1, is 88%

> > The number of players that reached rank 25 in PVP (the rank needed to start Ranked games) is 83%

> > The number of players that reached rank 100 in WvW is 84%

> > In other words, at least on gw2efficiency, the number of players that are pure open world runners is very limited.

> >

> > Do you have any kind of data to prove that those who run open world exclusively also go after legendary weapons?

> > Or that they are even a high enough percentage of the population

> >

> > > No two game modes are *identical,* they all have their differences, but raids are certainly more different from open world PvE than WvW is from sPvP.

> > >

> >

> > But Raids and PVE are indeed the same mode, same rules. While WVW and PVP are completely different. That you claim otherwise is funny at best.

>

> Source ?

>

 

gw2efficiency.com :)

If you check the earlier posts they were all with data from there.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > >Also, about 50% of the players with 4k+ hours have reached Fractal level 100. About 27% has max rank in PVP, and 71% have more than rank 200 in WvW. Those are NOT open world exclusive players.

> > > >

> > > > True, but neither do those numbers represent the entirety of the player population.

> > > >

> > >

> > > This returns back to the original. The amount of players who play open world exclusively are less likely to have a legendary weapon, making the addition of legendary armor for them doubtful.

> > >

> > > Data shows that the amount of players who have a legendary weapon in the 4k hour bracket is 70%.

> > > The number of players that are fractal runners, that is at least went beyond T1, is 88%

> > > The number of players that reached rank 25 in PVP (the rank needed to start Ranked games) is 83%

> > > The number of players that reached rank 100 in WvW is 84%

> > > In other words, at least on gw2efficiency, the number of players that are pure open world runners is very limited.

> > >

> > > Do you have any kind of data to prove that those who run open world exclusively also go after legendary weapons?

> > > Or that they are even a high enough percentage of the population

> > >

> > > > No two game modes are *identical,* they all have their differences, but raids are certainly more different from open world PvE than WvW is from sPvP.

> > > >

> > >

> > > But Raids and PVE are indeed the same mode, same rules. While WVW and PVP are completely different. That you claim otherwise is funny at best.

> >

> > Source ?

> >

>

> gw2efficiency.com :)

> If you check the earlier posts they were all with data from there.

 

Ok.. so that's just based on the people who joined that site.. its' not indicative of the whole population. Thanks.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

>

> Ok.. so that's just based on the people who joined that site.. its' not indicative of the whole population. Thanks.

 

Of course it's not, I never once claimed it was. I used gw2efficiency to show how few of the population of that website (41%) have a Legendary Weapon and it's more than safe to assume that for the entire population of the game there is an even lower percentage of players (don't have to explain why I hope) with a legendary weapon.

The rest of the data was used to show side by side the percentage of players having a legendary, with the percentages of players that play PVP, WVW and Fractals

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Seera.5916" said:

> I took casual in the context of this discussion as the player who's not likely to raid for reasons other than solely too little time. Because there are just too many valid definitions of casual.

 

Since we're discussing players who aren't raiding, why not just use the definition "people who aren't raiding, for various reasons?"

 

> Most casuals just care about skins and not necessarily the functionality. Casuals don't tend to need to have the best build for everything and will likely just 1-2 builds and that's easy enough to deal with without the stat swap ability of legendary items.

 

True enough.

 

>Most of the feedback I've seen related to envoy armor is that it's ugly.

 

And by and large it is very ugly, but bits and pieces of it can be pretty cool in combination with other armors. Mostly fashion wars involves tasteful (or deliberately distasteful) combinations.

 

>If most people who didn't want to raid really wanted the armor, we would have seen a lot more threads pop up about how the armor is locked behind raids and not just the small handful that exist. Or a lot more unique posters in the ones that exist.

 

It's been a slow drip. It's been two years now since Legendary Armor was announced, and over that entire time there have almost always been at least one thread about it. It's a consistent complaint, it's just not one that ANet have yet shown any movement on. That doesn't mean that people want it to happen any less, it just means they've gotten tired of asking and getting no positive response. Don't take submission for agreement.

 

>Do you have any kind of data to prove that those who run open world exclusively also go after legendary weapons?

 

No, and nor would I care to make such a point.

 

>Or that they are even a high enough percentage of the population

 

What data we do have, in the form of numerous player polls, indicate that the supermajority of players vastly prefer open world content. Whether that means that they *never* do other things or not, it would still be of benefit to allow them to advance through their preferred activities.

 

>But Raids and PVE are indeed the same mode, same rules. While WVW and PVP are completely different. That you claim otherwise is funny at best.

 

We have a [rabbit or duck](https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/02/14/12/duck-rabbit.png) situation here. You see it how you want to see it, and nothing I say could convince you to shift your perspective on the issue, but that does not mean that your perspective is more correct than mine.

 

 

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > >Also, about 50% of the players with 4k+ hours have reached Fractal level 100. About 27% has max rank in PVP, and 71% have more than rank 200 in WvW. Those are NOT open world exclusive players.

> >

> > True, but neither do those numbers represent the entirety of the player population.

> >

>

> This returns back to the original. The amount of players who play open world exclusively are less likely to have a legendary weapon, making the addition of legendary armor for them doubtful.

>

> Data shows that the amount of players who have a legendary weapon in the 4k hour bracket is 70%.

> The number of players that are fractal runners, that is at least went beyond T1, is 88%

> The number of players that reached rank 25 in PVP (the rank needed to start Ranked games) is 83%

> The number of players that reached rank 100 in WvW is 84%

> In other words, at least on gw2efficiency, the number of players that are pure open world runners is very limited.

>

> Do you have any kind of data to prove that those who run open world exclusively also go after legendary weapons?

> Or that they are even a high enough percentage of the population

>

> > No two game modes are *identical,* they all have their differences, but raids are certainly more different from open world PvE than WvW is from sPvP.

> >

>

> But Raids and PVE are indeed the same mode, same rules. While WVW and PVP are completely different. That you claim otherwise is funny at best.

 

No they are not. Raids are DESIGNED to be tightly tuned to give content to players who want challenges that require precise build and skill combinations across 10 players. skill rotation is king. all other PVE is about giving RPG style content in a mmo environment.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> What data we do have, in the form of numerous player polls, indicate that the supermajority of players vastly prefer open world content. Whether that means that they *never* do other things or not, it would still be of benefit to allow them to advance through their preferred activities.

>

 

That's irrelevant. Only those who play open world exclusively AND go for legendary weapons will see any benefit from such a change. Those who don't care for Legendary weapons wont' see a benefit in giving them Legendary armor (they'll still not get it) it's a completely different type of player.

 

> We have a [rabbit or duck](https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/02/14/12/duck-rabbit.png) situation here. You see it how you want to see it, and nothing I say could convince you to shift your perspective on the issue, but that does not mean that your perspective is more correct than mine.

>

>

 

Your perspective is objectively flawed. WVW and PVP use DIFFERENT rules while Raids use the exact same rules as open world PVE. Outside the number of players there is no difference between a Raid and an open world boss, there are even bosses that use similar abilities like the Vale Guardian and the Bloodstone Fen version.

On the other hand, PVP and WVW use different rules and mechanics.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > What data we do have, in the form of numerous player polls, indicate that the supermajority of players vastly prefer open world content. Whether that means that they *never* do other things or not, it would still be of benefit to allow them to advance through their preferred activities.

> >

>

> That's irrelevant. Only those who play open world exclusively AND go for legendary weapons will see any benefit from such a change. Those who don't care for Legendary weapons wont' see a benefit in giving them Legendary armor (they'll still not get it) it's a completely different type of player.

>

> > We have a [rabbit or duck](https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/02/14/12/duck-rabbit.png) situation here. You see it how you want to see it, and nothing I say could convince you to shift your perspective on the issue, but that does not mean that your perspective is more correct than mine.

> >

> >

>

> Your perspective is objectively flawed. WVW and PVP use DIFFERENT rules while Raids use the exact same rules as open world PVE. Outside the number of players there is no difference between a Raid and an open world boss, there are even bosses that use similar abilities like the Vale Guardian and the Bloodstone Fen version.

> On the other hand, PVP and WVW use different rules and mechanics.

 

incorrrect - see post above.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> No they are not. Raids are DESIGNED to be tightly tuned to give content to players who want challenges that require precise build and skill combinations across 10 players. skill rotation is king. all other PVE is about giving RPG style content in a mmo environment.

 

PVP has hotjoin, custom arena, unranked, ranked and automatic tournaments, they use the same set rules but they are content for different types of players, for the various challenge levels.

PVE has open world PVE, story, dungeons, fractals and Raids (open world has many varieties, from easy farming, to hardcore world bosses like Triple Trouble). Exact same rules, but content for different challenge levels.

WVW has roaming, guild vs guild, siege, squad vs squad, all different challenge levels again, but same rules between them (different than the others)

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>Only those who play open world exclusively AND go for legendary weapons will see any benefit from such a change.

 

How so? Are you arguing that someone who raids, but HATES raiding and loves open world, would not benefit in *any* way from being able to shift his play back to the open world he enjoys?

 

Are you arguing that if someone does not *currently* collect Legendary weapons, that it's *impossible* for them to be interested in any other type of legendary item?

 

I'm really not sure where your confidence comes from here.

 

>Those who don't care for Legendary weapons wont' see a benefit in giving them Legendary armor

 

Why not? Again, it's like you're saying that if someone doesn't like coffee then they'll never be interested in doughnuts. They are two completely separate concepts. Players can have completely independent interest in either OR both.

 

>Your perspective is objectively flawed. WVW and PVP use DIFFERENT rules while Raids use the exact same rules as open world PVE.

 

It's all a spectrum. Anet has *chosen* to place walls in between here and there, players have *chosen* to divide themselves along completely different lines, which matters more is an arbitrary distinction. Think of it like those colonial territories where the empires divided up a landmass in ways that made sense to them from above, but as it turned out made no sense to the people on the ground, and yet to you, "here is the national border, running right through the middle of where people live. Deal with it." I'm noting that the existing border lines don't reflect the player experiences.

 

ANet would be capable of re-aligning those divider lines if they saw fit to. Part of the point of this thread is to ask them to consider doing so. Make the formal divisions better reflect the community-driven divisions.

 

> there are even bosses that use similar abilities like the Vale Guardian and the Bloodstone Fen version.

 

And yet would you consider them "basically the same encounters?" Should the Bloodstone VG and Ember Slothazor count for proccing the raid achievements and drops connected to the raid versions? That might simplify a lot of things, really. They *are* basically the same thing, right?

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> ANet would be capable of re-aligning those divider lines if they saw fit to. Part of the point of this thread is to ask them to consider doing so. Make the formal divisions better reflect the community-driven divisions.

 

Think about this, you are arguing against a group of people that want to put you in a box and tell you what you should and should not enjoy., while knowing nothing about you or what players like you would in fact enjoy at all.

[Zaklex.6308]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> >Only those who play open world exclusively AND go for legendary weapons will see any benefit from such a change.

>

> How so? Are you arguing that someone who raids, but HATES raiding and loves open world, would not benefit in *any* way from being able to shift his play back to the open world he enjoys?

>

> Are you arguing that if someone does not *currently* collect Legendary weapons, that it's *impossible* for them to be interested in any other type of legendary item?

>

> I'm really not sure where your confidence comes from here.

>

> >Those who don't care for Legendary weapons wont' see a benefit in giving them Legendary armor

>

> Why not? Again, it's like you're saying that if someone doesn't like coffee then they'll never be interested in doughnuts. They are two completely separate concepts. Players can have completely independent interest in either OR both.

>

> >Your perspective is objectively flawed. WVW and PVP use DIFFERENT rules while Raids use the exact same rules as open world PVE.

>

> It's all a spectrum. Anet has *chosen* to place walls in between here and there, players have *chosen* to divide themselves along completely different lines, which matters more is an arbitrary distinction. Think of it like those colonial territories where the empires divided up a landmass in ways that made sense to them from above, but as it turned out made no sense to the people on the ground, and yet to you, "here is the national border, running right through the middle of where people live. Deal with it." I'm noting that the existing border lines don't reflect the player experiences.

>

> ANet would be capable of re-aligning those divider lines if they saw fit to. Part of the point of this thread is to ask them to consider doing so. Make the formal divisions better reflect the community-driven divisions.

>

> > there are even bosses that use similar abilities like the Vale Guardian and the Bloodstone Fen version.

>

> And yet would you consider them "basically the same encounters?" Should the Bloodstone VG and Ember Slothazor count for proccing the raid achievements and drops connected to the raid versions? That might simplify a lot of things, really. They *are* basically the same thing, right?

>

 

Suggestion, quit while you think you're ahead, if you want some of the Legendary armor then give in and do the Raid(s), it's part of the requirement. If you're unwilling to do that, then you really don't want the pieces as badly as you say you do. It really is that simple, it's just another part of PvE, which is what you seem to enjoy playing, and that is one of the 3 parts of this game...along with WvW and PvP. Don't care how you want to break them down, ArenaNet defined them in the beginning and that's it. it's their game, they can do what they want with it...people that like playing it will continue to play it whether they get Legendary armor or not.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

>Suggestion, quit while you think you're ahead, if you want some of the Legendary armor then give in and do the Raid(s), it's part of the requirement.

 

But then I would have to do raiding, which is just AWFUL, and I would be spending hours of my life doing something that I do not enjoy in the slightest. Time is the most precious resource, never listen to anyone telling you to waste yours.

 

>If you're unwilling to do that, then you really don't want the pieces as badly as you say you do.

 

No, I want them **exactly** as much as I say I do, which is " I am perfectly content without them < **Exactly as much as I _actually_ want them** < I am willing to raid to get them."

 

>it's just another part of PvE, which is what you seem to enjoy playing,

 

But the variety of PvE that it is based around is the antithesis of the type of PvE I enjoy about this game. If I enjoyed that type of PvE then I would be playing WoW or FF14 right now instead of GW2.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Zaklex.6308" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > >Only those who play open world exclusively AND go for legendary weapons will see any benefit from such a change.

> >

> > How so? Are you arguing that someone who raids, but HATES raiding and loves open world, would not benefit in *any* way from being able to shift his play back to the open world he enjoys?

> >

> > Are you arguing that if someone does not *currently* collect Legendary weapons, that it's *impossible* for them to be interested in any other type of legendary item?

> >

> > I'm really not sure where your confidence comes from here.

> >

> > >Those who don't care for Legendary weapons wont' see a benefit in giving them Legendary armor

> >

> > Why not? Again, it's like you're saying that if someone doesn't like coffee then they'll never be interested in doughnuts. They are two completely separate concepts. Players can have completely independent interest in either OR both.

> >

> > >Your perspective is objectively flawed. WVW and PVP use DIFFERENT rules while Raids use the exact same rules as open world PVE.

> >

> > It's all a spectrum. Anet has *chosen* to place walls in between here and there, players have *chosen* to divide themselves along completely different lines, which matters more is an arbitrary distinction. Think of it like those colonial territories where the empires divided up a landmass in ways that made sense to them from above, but as it turned out made no sense to the people on the ground, and yet to you, "here is the national border, running right through the middle of where people live. Deal with it." I'm noting that the existing border lines don't reflect the player experiences.

> >

> > ANet would be capable of re-aligning those divider lines if they saw fit to. Part of the point of this thread is to ask them to consider doing so. Make the formal divisions better reflect the community-driven divisions.

> >

> > > there are even bosses that use similar abilities like the Vale Guardian and the Bloodstone Fen version.

> >

> > And yet would you consider them "basically the same encounters?" Should the Bloodstone VG and Ember Slothazor count for proccing the raid achievements and drops connected to the raid versions? That might simplify a lot of things, really. They *are* basically the same thing, right?

> >

>

> Suggestion, quit while you think you're ahead, if you want some of the Legendary armor then give in and do the Raid(s), it's part of the requirement. If you're unwilling to do that, then you really don't want the pieces as badly as you say you do. It really is that simple, it's just another part of PvE, which is what you seem to enjoy playing, and that is one of the 3 parts of this game...along with WvW and PvP. Don't care how you want to break them down, ArenaNet defined them in the beginning and that's it. it's their game, they can do what they want with it...people that like playing it will continue to play it whether they get Legendary armor or not.

>

>

 

If I wanted to raid for loot, I'd quit this game go back to my previous MMO. Did you ever pause to consider that many came here simply because this game did not have raids?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > ANet would be capable of re-aligning those divider lines if they saw fit to. Part of the point of this thread is to ask them to consider doing so. Make the formal divisions better reflect the community-driven divisions.

>

> Think about this, you are arguing against a group of people that want to put you in a box and tell you what you should and should not enjoy., while knowing nothing about you or what players like you would in fact enjoy at all.

 

Think about this. You're attempting to get a poster who has been impervious to all attempts at reason to see reason.