PvP Discussion: Matchmaking and Leagues

[Zlater.6789]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > @"Zlater.6789" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > > @"Zlater.6789" said:

> > > > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065"

> > > > Sorry about being late to the party, but I really wanted to ask you a question.

> > > > I remember that the match maker tries to assemble teams based on different classes and it tries it's hardest to separate classes on each team to prevent class stacking. I was thinking that the bigger the game is the less viable this becomes, each elite spec aims to have 3 different design routes with 2 elite specs that's already 6 each class.

> > > >

> > > > Instead of making class diversity a priority, is there any possibility that we might see a "role" feature in the future?

> > > > A way for a player to say I'm playing as a 'bruiser' so that way the team doesn't end up with 5 bruises the matchmaker can say OK we need a bunker ummmmm let's get this FB bunker because we don't have either of those yet.

> > >

> > > Sadly, the community voted down locking classes. Without that, class MMR and anti class stacking fails. The players can always re roll.

> >

> > That's not what I'm asking

>

> The matchmaker attempting to prevent class stacking is irrelevant for two reasons:

>

> The players can re-roll.

>

> Duo queue, which forces a combination on the matchmaker.

 

You're rambling, are you OK?

Talking about adding roles, not about class stacking.

[Bazooka.3590]

Plz Ben don't think MM is working. It never worked properly but nowadays it is catastrophic. The game is unplayable now.

[Just look at this.](https://postimg.org/image/zac7sodw5/ "Just look at this.")

Most of the matches are total blowouts. MM is not working. If you cannot fix it plz stop the leagues.

 

[Fideles Erbstück.7382]

Ok if anet decides to listen for once i guess i should take that opportunity. SO my problem right now is 1,6k rating is achieved sooo easily. its hard to stay under it to play with friends. And i agree in a competetive game with healthy playerbase a soloq only makes sense. But lets be realistic here. Gw2 pvp population is waaay to low. The skill ratings dont even matter since the difference in skill is way to high( like maybe 50 players play on a decent lvl), and i personally just wanna ennjoy the pvp with soemone on ts . I know its highly unlikely but i would love if you guys would jsut delete it and change back to dynamic queues, or atleast increase the border for duoq to legy like u planned it at the beginning.

[MailMail.6534]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> In a recent random sample of 100,000 matches, we found that in approximately 95% of matches, the difference between the average skill rating of each team was less than 50 points. The matchmaker is doing a good job in most cases.

>

> One thing to keep in mind is that just because the average skill rating of each team is close, that doesn’t mean you won’t have a blowout match. Some maps just tend to snowball, some players tend to give up when they get a bit behind, etc. This can lead to a blowout even if the average skill rating of each team was fairly close.

>

 

This is quite the receipt! Hopefully players understand a bit more about the success [and sometimes failures] of the matchmaking system.

[Bazooka.3590]

> @"MailMail.6534" said:

> > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > In a recent random sample of 100,000 matches, we found that in approximately 95% of matches, the difference between the average skill rating of each team was less than 50 points. The matchmaker is doing a good job in most cases.

> >

> > One thing to keep in mind is that just because the average skill rating of each team is close, that doesn’t mean you won’t have a blowout match. Some maps just tend to snowball, some players tend to give up when they get a bit behind, etc. This can lead to a blowout even if the average skill rating of each team was fairly close.

> >

>

> This is quite the receipt! Hopefully players understand a bit more about the success [and sometimes failures] of the matchmaking system.

 

Ye we understand that skill rating alone is totally not enough to measure your league rank.

The build unbalance is super Big in this game. MM can't ignore this.

 

There is two choice here:

1. Balance the builds

or

2. MM system should check everyone's build (not just class and rating) and try to set up the game according to this.

If MM finds not enough player for an 5v5 it makes a 4v4 or 3v3 but **balanced** game. (Of course it needs smaller maps too)

 

 

If you can't do neither of this I think PVP in this game going to die.

[Lihvar.7045]

So I have a suggestion, I'm a programmer and I've been also working with statistics. Matchmaking for the current PvP game mode (aka 3 cap. points, 5 v 5) DOESN'T WORK. This goes for all the pvp games using similar matchmaking methods, where wins and losses are counted in a TEAM BASED game. From what I have noticed almost 87% of my matches end in 150± to 500 score, showing the team imbalance. the rest 13% are 400-500, which clearly shows how faulty the current matchmaking system is. You cannot(you can, but you shouldn't) use individual player rating in a game where it requires teamwork.

So here is my suggestion, you guys have already added to the scoreboard to show which player did most damage/support/capping/ressing. THESE are the stats that should be counted for each player. So let's put it in an example. So player A has Damage rating of 7/10, support(healing, cc, resurrections, and some other useful stuff can go here) 3/10, point hold/capture 8/10, and you could add some extras that could be class based(like mobility, but this I could see being pointless, idk how the games complete structure) and so with rating each players capability with these sections/sub-sections you could generate much better teams by putting a player with good support with a player with damage/kill ratio, with a player who is a good "tactitan" (eg. holds points/ does map objectives). The thing is, you can really go in depth with this. Players average of these sections could be presented as their rank. The complete math of this matchmaking system is too complex for me to write it in this post, but hopefully you get the idea. If not, but you are interested I could try my best to explain it in a follow-up post.

[xp eke xp.6724]

Your idea looks like the idea of lol: you choose a role you want to play and for that you get the points.

The thing is that guildwars 2 is much more complicated then lol, you have more options to get carried by your own streghts or the weaknesses of others and ofc every class can do every thing, its just like you have main roles (that you play like over 90%) and secondary rolles (cause someone failed or it´s just needed) and even third roles (like hope to hold the aggro of bad players). So think on, how to use that. Cause it can work :)

 

Maybe to bring a reward system for a good actions like on lol

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> This thread is to discussion matchmaking and league play. To kick off the thread, I wanted to talk a bit about the current state of the matchmaker.

>

> In a recent random sample of 100,000 matches, we found that in approximately 95% of matches, the difference between the average skill rating of each team was less than 50 points. The matchmaker is doing a good job in most cases. Things get more problematic at the very low and very high skill ratings. Our change to duo queue for 1600+ ranked players is part of our efforts to address this. In addition to that modification, we’re working on some fine tuning on the matchmaker. Our simulation with the proposed changes extended the favorable difference ratio mentioned above from 95% to over 99% of matches. I can’t give you specific dates on when these changes go live, but we’ll be looking to trial them on the unranked queue somewhat soon™.

>

> One thing to keep in mind is that just because the average skill rating of each team is close, that doesn’t mean you won’t have a blowout match. Some maps just tend to snowball, some players tend to give up when they get a bit behind, etc. This can lead to a blowout even if the average skill rating of each team was fairly close.

>

 

You are not comparing apples to apples here. Team average doesn't take into account the sometimes HUGE variances. It also doesn't take into account the class composition of the teams.

 

I once worked for a Japanese managed company. We needed to make a presentation to the corporate convention on our "Kaizen" performance. Trouble was, we had no time or budget to do any Kaizen work. *I personally rewrote the report, by presenting the statistics in a different way and showed a 33% improvement in performance, simply by presentation of chosen statistics.*

 

Match quality needs to improve. I think there's general agreement on that point. I think the best path to do that would be to lock classes and have the matchmaker take class comp into account. This would offset some of the balance issues.

[Frozenblade.6039]

Still, you can change classes before match starts, right?

[Frozenblade.6039]

First 10 tier matches need a re-work. For example; you start season with 950 rating and end up 1280. This doesn't make sense. Isn't it mean the player put wrong tier in the first place?

[Forgotten by Jana.7819]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> Doing this would lead to chaos. Is there a player you know you're likely to lose to? Block them. I don't think that even ANET would permit this.

 

Dont know if you understood what i said . You would block players from your team , so you dont get matched up again .

 

 

[Ithilwen.1529]

> @"Forgotten by Jana.7819" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > Doing this would lead to chaos. Is there a player you know you're likely to lose to? Block them. I don't think that even ANET would permit this.

>

> Dont know if you understood what i said . You would block players from your team , so you dont get matched up again .

>

>

 

Same issue. You don't like a player? Think they are "bad?" Block them. Pretty soon the already small pool becomes unusable because matches are forbidden. Preventing being matched with or against a player is essentially the same. In both cases, it's a means to exploit and in both cases it would wreak havoc.

[Bazooka.3590]

Are you still listening to us Ben?

Or are we just writing to ourselves again?

Nice update but PVP is still unplayable now. It doesn't fix anything.

We've already gave you hundreds of suggestions. Can we hope in a PVP fix soon or should we leave this game too?

 

[Namless.4028]

> @"Bazooka.3590" said:

> Are you still listening to us Ben?

> Or are we just writing to ourselves again?

> Nice update but PVP is still unplayable now. It doesn't fix anything.

> We've already gave you hundreds of suggestions. Can we hope in a PVP fix soon or should we leave this game too?

>

 

Dont expect anything during this season.

I just hope that it will be better next season

[Bazooka.3590]

> @"Namless.4028" said:

> > @"Bazooka.3590" said:

> > Are you still listening to us Ben?

> > Or are we just writing to ourselves again?

> > Nice update but PVP is still unplayable now. It doesn't fix anything.

> > We've already gave you hundreds of suggestions. Can we hope in a PVP fix soon or should we leave this game too?

> >

>

> Dont expect anything during this season.

> I just hope that it will be better next season

 

I want to hear a promise at least... after 5 years... fuck

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @"Bazooka.3590" said:

> Are you still listening to us Ben?

> Or are we just writing to ourselves again?

> Nice update but PVP is still unplayable now. It doesn't fix anything.

> We've already gave you hundreds of suggestions. Can we hope in a PVP fix soon or should we leave this game too?

>

 

We're still reading. I have high hopes that we'll get several of our planned matchmaking changes in soonish, but it's not likely this month. I don't want to get more specific than that, since the code/testing isn't done yet and there is always the possibility something changes.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @"Bazooka.3590" said:

> > Are you still listening to us Ben?

> > Or are we just writing to ourselves again?

> > Nice update but PVP is still unplayable now. It doesn't fix anything.

> > We've already gave you hundreds of suggestions. Can we hope in a PVP fix soon or should we leave this game too?

> >

>

> We're still reading. I have high hopes that we'll get several of our planned matchmaking changes in soonish, but it's not likely this month. I don't want to get more specific than that, since the code/testing isn't done yet and there is always the possibility something changes.

 

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @"Bazooka.3590" said:

> > Are you still listening to us Ben?

> > Or are we just writing to ourselves again?

> > Nice update but PVP is still unplayable now. It doesn't fix anything.

> > We've already gave you hundreds of suggestions. Can we hope in a PVP fix soon or should we leave this game too?

> >

>

> We're still reading. I have high hopes that we'll get several of our planned matchmaking changes in soonish, but it's not likely this month. I don't want to get more specific than that, since the code/testing isn't done yet and there is always the possibility something changes.

 

Anet has been changing the matchmaking for years now...years after its introduction...still the same complaints and so I ask myself, I ask you what's the point of all this?

 

-No matter how many times you will reduce/increase the ranking range

-No matter how many times you change the formula

 

**The fundamental problem will remain : You cannot gauge personal skill based on random team performance**, the whole idea behind it is absurd, why should I be judged based on the performances of random goons? why their mistakes must influence my future?

 

 

[Forgotten by Jana.7819]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

 

> Anet has been changing the matchmaking for years now...years after its introduction...still the same complaints and so I ask myself, I ask you what's the point of all this?

>

> -No matter how many times you will reduce/increase the ranking range

> -No matter how many times you change the formula

>

> **The fundamental problem will remain : You cannot gauge personal skill based on random team performance**, the whole idea behind it is absurd, why should I be judged based on the performances of random goons? why their mistakes must influence my future?

>

 

You said it right , the whole system needs a change , they can make that players are set to 1 point skill difference and nothing will change still.

Millions of times people said classes need to be sorted in matches and million times we see same answer .

 

 

[Bazooka.3590]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @"Bazooka.3590" said:

> > Are you still listening to us Ben?

> > Or are we just writing to ourselves again?

> > Nice update but PVP is still unplayable now. It doesn't fix anything.

> > We've already gave you hundreds of suggestions. Can we hope in a PVP fix soon or should we leave this game too?

> >

>

> We're still reading. I have high hopes that we'll get several of our planned matchmaking changes in soonish, but it's not likely this month. I don't want to get more specific than that, since the code/testing isn't done yet and there is always the possibility something changes.

 

Thank you. That's good to hear:)

[maddoctor.2738]

I didn't know on which of the PVP threads to ask but I'll do it here since it affects matchmaking:

Can rating loss/gain depend on game performance and not just team ratings? I know it's something that is asked a LOT but since this is a feedback gathering thread it deserves the attention.

[Ben Phongluangtham.1065]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> I didn't know on which of the PVP threads to ask but I'll do it here since it affects matchmaking:

> Can rating loss/gain depend on game performance and not just team ratings? I know it's something that is asked a LOT but since this is a feedback gathering thread it deserves the attention.

 

The problem is, measuring individual performance in a meaningful way is very difficult to do programatically. I know we have top stats, but they don't generally tell the whole story. Individual performance is a very situational thing. If we tried to adjust ratings based on stats, we'd have people chasing stats rather than the win. That's why we value the win over everything else.

[Bazooka.3590]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > I didn't know on which of the PVP threads to ask but I'll do it here since it affects matchmaking:

> > Can rating loss/gain depend on game performance and not just team ratings? I know it's something that is asked a LOT but since this is a feedback gathering thread it deserves the attention.

>

> The problem is, measuring individual performance in a meaningful way is very difficult to do programatically. I know we have top stats, but they don't generally tell the whole story. Individual performance is a very situational thing. If we tried to adjust ratings based on stats, we'd have people chasing stats rather than the win. That's why we value the win over everything else.

 

Something has to be done because of the bad team setups what MM can make and the class unbalance killing pvp.

If someone falls hundreds of rank points not of his own fault he will just quit pvp or the leauges at least. And it's perfectly understandable.

Total blowout matches (happen sadly very often) are frustrating in themselves but when you lost -1X -2X rank points because of MM made you a catastrophic team setup against a pro tank/healer condi team then you just don't want to play or you going crazy.

I can see 3 options now to fix this:

-Balance the builds (never gonna happen)

-Rewrite MM (never gonna happen)

-Make the rank points lost reasonable and fair for those who were trolled by the MM system (that's the easiest way I think)

 

and a bonus (I hope it's not gonna happen)

-Just cease the leauges (if you really can't find a way to fix pvp)

 

If you have other plans we are all curious for that I think.

[Rufo.3716]

I think the best thing at this point is to do away with the whole ranked match thing. Have seasons just for progression with pips and make the whole MM rating internal. Ranking on the leaderboards means next to nothing anyway. I have one account that hovers between high gold/plat and one that is mired in silver.

[ReaverKane.7598]

I think revisiting the bonuses we used to get/still get in pips and apply those to Rank points would be a good idea.

Like the win streak bonus, the bonus you'd get after a big loss streak. You have a pip bonus when you lose a close game, etc.

Those could be applied to rank points.

But you're not wrong that top stats don't tell the whole story.

Often i find that when i actually play well, and help out a lot i tend to get the least Top stats. Like i go far, help kill enemies, but leave capping to my team mates, they get the capture point, i get a kill which they also get.

Same with defense, i help defend, and move on, there's one less defense point. In the end i worked a lot for that win and get no top score.

[TenzKu.1509]

For me, fixing PvP comes down to this:

Stop penalizing good players for being on bad teams (who loose) when it was you who put them there, Anet. It makes me feel hopeless to know that I'm going to loose, even though I'm playing well, just because my teammates are clueless. That's it. That's all it is. Please find a better way to algorithmicly judge if a player is being effective for their team each game, and don't penalize them if they are.