PvP Discussion: Maps

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

**Concerning conquest maps:**

Whatever it is you do, make sure that map objectives such as skyhammer/shrines/beasts/lord kill are mechanics designed to allow a losing team to take a risk for a possible comeback, rather than be easy for a winning team to create snowball. Examples of what I mean:

* Legacy lord kills - It is advantageous for a winning team to hold nodes and defend their own lord. It is not advantageous for a winning team to push for a lord kill because a lord kill is largely a risk and if it fails, the losing team can turn a match around very quickly. A lord kill is advantageous to push for a losing team who hits 350 points vs let's say 450 and they know that the lord kill is only possible way to win the match. <- This is a good mechanic. The designed encourages comeback rather than snowball.

* Coliseum artifacts - In a nutshell, a losing team that tries to go for objectives begins to lose harder because that 1 person going to grab the artifact leaves their team 4v5 staggered if not 3v5 staggered and they lose all the nodes this way which is way more of a boon to the winning team than the small combat bonuses are a boon to the losing team. However, an already winning team actually has time to send 1 person to grab an artifact when the losing team is staggered and it allows for an even harder win. <- This is a bad mechanic. The design encourages snowball for the winning team and almost no possibility for a losing team to gain a comeback.

The other maps are fine. I just wanted to use these two as examples. Coliseum artifacts are the only objectives that I feel need to be redesigned.

 

**Concerning stronghold:**

It's not that stronghold is a bad game mode. It's that it lacks dynamic vs. conquest so naturally people will prefer conquest. Few simple suggestion that I think would add a lot more dynamic:

* Remove door breakers. Add bomb kits that players carry themselves to gates or maybe small siege options like a Charzooka that can damage doors. Make these things usable through "special action key" so that players can still fight each other with normal skill actions. <- This is less killing NPCs and a lot more killing players.

* Make archers stronger and path their AI to go defend their own gate, rather than push the enemy gate. <- This is offers immediate difference in choice between summoning for gate pushing or summoning for gate defense. This is just more dynamic and that is what the game mode needs.

* Make heroes stronger ffs. They should hit players like a brick to the face and be much more durable, especially now after PoF DPS. They should also have an option when summoned, to push enemy gate or go defend it's own gate. <- More dynamic.

* Lords feel fine but they still melt to a full team push that is unchecked. Maybe it should gain Righteous Indignation for 10s once it hits 25% health. This gives a losing team a bit more time to defend a lord and makes the lord much more dangerous to stack and DPS on so casually.

 

**Concerning 2v2:**

One main thing:

* No one likes the mechanic where healing stops and the damage pit appears if the timer runs out. We've tried this in tournaments and it's pretty imbalanced actually. Some builds get screwed by it whilst others benefit it. It would be a good idea to remove that mechanic and simply make the match end when the timer runs out and declare the win based on whichever team had the highest numbers of DPS dealt/damage healed or something like that. I dunno you guys figure it out. But the damage pit fundamental needs to be changed.

 

**Concerning Courtyard:**

Wild idea here but I think these changes would be amazing and fresh:

* Rename the game mode/map if you have to.

* Make it 10 vs. 10 death match with no respawns - best 2/3 wins the match

* Each team gets to select & summon a powerful NPC to take into the 10 vs. 10. When I say powerful, I mean powerful. Add a bunch of cool shit in there to use like: Scarlet, Eir Stegalkin, Mai Trin, Trahearne, ect.. ect.. You guys have plenty of GW2 lore to work with, don't waste it. Make these NPCs seriously impact the battle so that the difference is large between a character meant to DPS, Buff Boons or Hard Heal. The objective to win is still to kill all enemy players. The NPC does nothing but assist the players, nothing special other than being able to fill a role that the team lacks or maybe just wants in. If all players die and an NPC is still standing, that team still loses. Dunno, it's a rough draft idea but sounds fun to me. Could probably polish out some cooler ideas for mechanics with a little thought.

 

[MailMail.6534]

Skyhammer

* I love the lack of breakable glass.

* The hammer mechanic is meaningful but not in an over powered way.

* It seems a bit cumbersome moving around this map. It seems a bit congested due to all the sharp edges and platforms. Maybe that's part of the aesthetic but it's annoying to me.

* Back to the hammer, I think the platform should be a lot larger AND the threat of falling off should be increased. This is a tricky balance, but I always feel like the hammer fight is just a spam fest due to how small it is. Making it larger and getting rid of those barriers would help make that fight a bit more interesting.

 

Khylo

* Figure out some way to increase the meaningfulness of treb. Damage increase? AOE increase? Maybe have treb hits to a point have the potential to neutralize enemy points (like, each hit takes a 1/4th of the point away). I'm not exactly sure, but right now, they are NEVER used.

* Also, the mid fight is very cumbersome. I refuse to fight on that point. Not only is it harder to blink around but also plain just hard to walk. Just very tedious for no reason. The smallness of mid makes using the camera difficult too at times.

* While I love the side points on this map, the mid point alone makes this one of my least favorite maps.

 

Foefire

* Increase toughness of Lord. Give him some condition clearing abilities. AOE stuns. A few unblockables if you don't break its bar. He's too easy to 1v1 for some classes. General buffs to Lord's allies would be great. Come on, the Lord's team should be formidable.

* Spacing of the points are fantastic.

* Blink spots are amazing, but not OP for those classes that can take advantage of them.

 

Capricorn

* I love the mechanic here and how it exponentially gets better the more you ring bell. It changes the incentives ever so slightly depending on the situation.

* Spacing of the points here are a bit far, but I don't think it's a a bad thing to have some variety in the maps. It's not too much.

* I also like the higher ground space above the mid point. It gives leeway for some strategic positioning.

 

Coliseum

* I think this map seems to be in a good place.

* The secondary mechanics are unique and situational. Can really help turn some fights.

 

Forest

* Another map that I think is in perfect balance. Really good side mechanics that aren't necessary but can be used in clutch situations as well. Maybe it would be great if killing the beasts gave you an ACTION HOT KEY SKILL for a limited time! Probably an AOE stun (claw swipe) and a pull (axe throw & return).

 

Temple

* Perfect!

 

Spirit

* This map is so frustrating. The mid fight is a crap shoot when the camera is blocked by trees and foilage all the time.

* Orb isn't really impactful. I love the new skills added to orb though. This does make it fun to capture.

[Byron.1902]

Feedback:

 

**Skyhammer** - open up the centre of the turrets on either side of mid and have the jump pads inside them. stops any annoying unintended jump pad interactions from genuine node recycling. also giving outplay potential for the node via los inside possible turret doorways as well as jump pad fake-outs.

 

*****

 

**Spirit Watch** - Make the central Orb less of a respawn objective. Perhaps split the CTF mech into 2 orbs. Each one placed between sides and mid. whichever channel is completed first gains the orb at that shrine and the other orb despawns entirely. Giving scope to 3 cap playstyle and punishing a macro game that relies on overloading one side of the map (orb is too powerful running to close).

 

Or Make the Orb mech work differently until you have a map layout more favourable (think orb opposite spawn was a mistake - capricorn bell is much smarter in macro design for instance). You could give a 1min warning that 1 of the 3 capture points will hold an orb for 25s in which time it is worth double points (i.e a moving single capture point Temple-like mech). Teams would have time to prep an offense or defense of that node, whilst a reactive rotational macro games plays out around it. (just maybe make a design clause in which the same node cannot hold an Orb 2x in a row or maybe it solely appears in a re-worked (access) mid node?

 

*****

 

**Champions Dusk** - First off, I'm kinda hoping that 'Stronghold' becomes an amalgamated GvG space. I'd love to see this re-worked as a GvG Leaderboard concept. Have some 5v5 battleground style maps and a 15v15 or 20v20 Obsidian Sanctum instance as a map (also could put the 2v2 'arenas' in there and am hoping for 3v3 down the road). Guilds can earn rating for a leaderboard plus perhaps wins gift some WvW points for crossover? yes pls.

 

As for Champion's Dusk i think the supply mechanic isn't great. perhaps replace it with 3 Capture points. mid generates +1 supply for your 'Garrison'(?) which spawns mobs at regular intervals (sup carry mech is a bit of a bore). mid capture 'sup' grants the mobs extra stats (e.g +20 armour, +20 power per sup?). Side nodes grant a stacking amount of 'Mist Essence' when captured. When they reach 50(?) you spawn your pushing champion.

 

This way you play more classic conquest for longer till you are in a position to reach end-game lord push. Home becomes ur champion generator, Mid = mob lane buff, Far = champion denial. Proper Macro Game is still operational - strong mid-game node becomes established on the node that becomes most important for that moment in time, side node 2v1 still exits on the opposite side of the map and +1ing can still effect the outcome.

 

I'd also change the way the Fort works. Make assaulting the Lord a Time investment mechanic (similar to Foefire). Macro game needs to figure out when its right to push and when not. Don't think ending the game with Lord stomp is smart as you see insta push lord cheese mechs and possible win trading occur. I'd put something like a 'Garrison Captain' between gates 1 and 2 and have him worth 25 points and Lord worth 75. Return the map into a more transitioned version of conquest. Think it didn't gain traction as you tried to re-invent the wheel

 

*****

 

**Arenas** (2v2s, 3v3s) - I'd love to see a life stock mechanic similar to Super Smash bros. Each player starts with 3 stocks and loses one on death with 5s respawn. Players are out when they lose all stocks. That way you get to play a cool-down management strategy properly over several minutes play and not what we saw with courtyard (insta burst and then farm). Teams would smartly trade stocks and cooldowns as smart play presents win conditions, rather than 100-0 faceroll.

[Frozenblade.6039]

I already wrote this to another thread. But, I think it is more suitable for here.

Why don't we have rated matches like Arathi basin (15vs15 Resource Race) or Alterac Valley (40vs40 warfare)? What are the drawbacks? 10vs10, 15vs15, 40vs40 can create totally new build and class balance, strategies and variety. It can lead more content, and expand PvP player base dramatically.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I believe that trying to make Battle of Champion’s Dusk too different from more classic 'moba' games was a mistake. Those games ended up like that after years of development. There's no need to reinvent the wheel trying to make it too different when the intention was clearly a similar style.

So why trying to come up with great differences when we already know what works?

 

With that in mid, here are the changes I recommend for **Battle of Champion’s Dusk**:

 

* Scrap the supply mechanic and make waves of 'henchmen' NPCs automatic.

* They will now be grawl and hylek instead skritt and tengu.

* The pirate side will have grawl, while the knights will have hylek.

* Each wave will come with 2 melee warriors, 2 short range archers and 1 long range support shaman.

* The warriors do a bit less damage, but have more health and toughness.

* The archers do a bit more damage, but take more damage too.

* The shamans do little damage and are weaker than rangers, but pulse regeneration and might in an area around themselves every 3 seconds.

* These NPCs prioritize attacking enemy NPCs, enemy champions, enemy defenses, the lord, and players, in that order.

* Make both lanes both offensive and defensive.

* The lord's chamber is moved to the center, and the spawning area is moved behind the lord's chamber.

* Have two paths to the lord for both sides, with 2 sets of gates and defenses each before reaching the lord's chamber, then the paths converge on it.

* The lord's chamber no longer has a gate. But the NPCs inside are not changed.

* It will be possible to sneak behind the first set of gates as there is a path between the lanes behind them, but the area behind the second set will be fully enclosed and one of the gates must be destroyed to reach the other side.

* Replace the trebuchet and NPCs at the gates with automated turrets to the sides of the gate, and a large siege machine behind the gate.

* These defenses prioritize attacking NPCs and will only attack players if there's no enemy NPCs in range.

* The pirate side could have something like [bandit turrets](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandit_Turret "bandit turrets") on the sides of the gate, and something like a [Pirate Turret](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pirate_Turret "Pirate Turrets") behind it.

* The knight's side could have something something like [iron legion turrets](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Turret_(environmental_weapon)" Iron legion turrets") on the sides of the gate and something like a giant Hylek turret behind them.

* These defenses have 1500 range, attack one target at a time once every 2 seconds and deal a lot of damage to players and player-summoned creatures, but reduced damage to NPCs.

* The attack of the large siege machine is much stronger, has 2000 unit range and also causes chilled, slow and 5 stacks of vulnerability for 10s to players. Making it rather hard to destroy without the cover of NPCs.

* The turrets and gates are not immune to critical hits and conditions, but they are immune to all forms of control or disabling conditions like blindness or weakness.

* Replace the champion summoning spots on the sides with camps of 3 hostile skritt 'mercenaries'.

* Defeating them makes them go neutral, and turns their spot into a quick capture area that is captured in 3 seconds. Capturing that area recruits them and makes them join their closest lane.

* The skritt will advance in the lane and attack enemy players and NPCs in range throwing junk until they are close enough to a gate, a tower, a large siege defense, or the lord. Once they are close enough, they take out a bomb, rush to their target, and detonate it in melee as they do their "escape underground" despawn animation.

* Skritt bombs will do massive damage to structures and the lord, but not so much to players and NPCs.

* The skritt camps first spawns after the first 3 mins of the match, and take 5 mins to refresh after being captured.

* Replace the trebuchets with a mercenary camp that has an ogre and its devourer pet. Like the skritt, they can be defeated and recruited to one's side.

* Ogres hit gates, defenses and the lord hard, but not so much against other enemy NPCs and players.

* The ogre camps first spawn 2 min after the start of the match, and take 3 min to refresh after being captured.

* The central supply spot is replaced with a summoning chamber for the mists champions and it is now the only spot for summoning them.

* When summoned they will join the lane with the least damage to the enemy structures.

* Champions are a bit stronger now, and can quickly kill NPC henchmen with a large AoE attack, and hit players rather hard, but they are not particularly tougher.

* Champions will prioritize attacking the lord, players in their way, gates and towers, and other NPCs, in that order.

 

[Ziggityzog.7389]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> I believe that trying to make Battle of Champion’s Dusk too different from more classic 'moba' games was a mistake. Those games ended up like that after years of development. There's no need to reinvent the wheel trying to make it too different when the intention was clearly a similar style.

> So why trying to come up with great differences when we already know what works?

>

> With that in mid, here are the changes I recommend for **Battle of Champion’s Dusk**:

>

> * Scrap the supply mechanic and make waves of 'henchmen' NPCs automatic.

> * They will now be grawl and hylek instead skritt and tengu.

> * The pirate side will have grawl, while the knights will have hylek.

> * Each wave will come with 2 melee warriors, 2 short range archers and 1 long range support shaman.

> * The warriors do a bit less damage, but have more health and toughness.

> * The archers do a bit more damage, but take more damage too.

> * The shamans do little damage and are weaker than rangers, but pulse regeneration and might in an area around themselves every 3 seconds.

> * These NPCs prioritize attacking enemy NPCs, enemy champions, enemy defenses, the lord, and players, in that order.

> * Make both lanes both offensive and defensive.

> * The lord's chamber is moved to the center, and the spawning area is moved behind the lord's chamber.

> * Have two paths to the lord for both sides, with 2 sets of gates and defenses each before reaching the lord's chamber, then the paths converge on it.

> * The lord's chamber no longer has a gate. But the NPCs inside are not changed.

> * It will be possible to sneak behind the first set of gates as there is a path between the lanes behind them, but the area behind the second set will be fully enclosed and one of the gates must be destroyed to reach the other side.

> * Replace the trebuchet and NPCs at the gates with automated turrets to the sides of the gate, and a large siege machine behind the gate.

> * These defenses prioritize attacking NPCs and will only attack players if there's no enemy NPCs in range.

> * The pirate side could have something like [bandit turrets](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandit_Turret "bandit turrets") on the sides of the gate, and something like a [Pirate Turret](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pirate_Turret "Pirate Turrets") behind it.

> * The knight's side could have something something like [iron legion turrets](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Turret_(environmental_weapon)" Iron legion turrets") on the sides of the gate and something like a giant Hylek turret behind them.

> * These defenses have 1500 range, attack one target at a time once every 2 seconds and deal a lot of damage to players and player-summoned creatures, but reduced damage to NPCs.

> * The attack of the large siege machine is much stronger, has 2000 unit range and also causes chilled, slow and 5 stacks of vulnerability for 10s to players. Making it rather hard to destroy without the cover of NPCs.

> * The turrets and gates are not immune to critical hits and conditions, but they are immune to all forms of control or disabling conditions like blindness or weakness.

> * Replace the champion summoning spots on the sides with camps of 3 hostile skritt 'mercenaries'.

> * Defeating them makes them go neutral, and turns their spot into a quick capture area that is captured in 3 seconds. Capturing that area recruits them and makes them join their closest lane.

> * The skritt will advance in the lane and attack enemy players and NPCs in range throwing junk until they are close enough to a gate, a tower, a large siege defense, or the lord. Once they are close enough, they take out a bomb, rush to their target, and detonate it in melee as they do their "escape underground" despawn animation.

> * Skritt bombs will do massive damage to structures and the lord, but not so much to players and NPCs.

> * The skritt camps first spawns after the first 3 mins of the match, and take 5 mins to refresh after being captured.

> * Replace the trebuchets with a mercenary camp that has an ogre and its devourer pet. Like the skritt, they can be defeated and recruited to one's side.

> * Ogres hit gates, defenses and the lord hard, but not so much against other enemy NPCs and players.

> * The ogre camps first spawn 2 min after the start of the match, and take 3 min to refresh after being captured.

> * The central supply spot is replaced with a summoning chamber for the mists champions and it is now the only spot for summoning them.

> * When summoned they will join the lane with the least damage to the enemy structures.

> * Champions are a bit stronger now, and can quickly kill NPC henchmen with a large AoE attack, and hit players rather hard, but they are not particularly tougher.

> * Champions will prioritize attacking the lord, players in their way, gates and towers, and other NPCs, in that order.

>

 

Noooooo just please no don't ruin stronghold. Stronghold is where i live because its the only competitive place in gw2 pvp. Circle dancing speed maps are just zzzZZZzzz and have been since a few months after launch. Dont ruin a perfectly good map. Make a second one with those mechanics or just fix the bugs like heroes going for players and not doors. Don't bring stronghold to the unplayable level of conq. It's fine as is minus bugs.

[Delweyn.1309]

GW2 really miss something bigger than small seize maps, something diffrent from arena. Because 5v5 or 2v2 are arena, not really Battlegrounds.

 

I know the game is not designed for big fights but a big map of 10v10 or 15v15, and objectives to dispatch people is what is really missing in GW2's pvp.

- An item could be used to smash people in an area, depending of how many of them are stuck together.

- A debuff could increase damages taken depending of how many allies are near.

 

Continue to work on small seize arenas will not resolve the problem of players who are not doing pvp because :

- A lot of pve players need something between wvw and arena to have fun

- 1 afk player in a team of 5 and all the match is spoiled for the team

- weaker player will get hunted and reked because they can't "hide" in the number of their team.

 

On the other hand :

- bigger teams will compensate a bit the difference of levels of players. (if in a 5v5, some strong players are put together, the match will not be balanced)

- in big teams, you don't have to work on a system to try to balance teams. Leave the random system. The number of player will compensate.

- Bigger maps and it will allow more types of gameplay (hit and run - hide and seek...)

- 1 afk is less a pain in the team.

 

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On the pvp forum, there are a lot of players who only see pvp changes in their eye of pvpers. So small encounters to makes them shine in duel is what they only want.

 

But you know it, the majority of GW2 player base are pvers. And if they don't do more pvp it's because of the current state of pvp.

And I really think that you should try now to focus on some game mode that will please them more than small seizes maps.

 

Thank you.