Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update

[ParaldaWind.4523]

I actually think this is a really eloquent solution to this problem. Right now the issue is that condi-burst is unavoidable and instant (and often ranged AOE, to boot). If we can slow that down, it would help balance a ton. Power should be for bursting, condis should be for sustain.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

When will Shadow Trap be addressed?!

[EoNenmacil.2361]

Please be careful with this patch. I dont want to go back to a Pre condi GW2. If this is done wrong it will push 80% of condi builds out of Raids and Fotm. Please be very careful with this kind of change.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

" but we ask that you keep discussion to the items we're focusing on here. " I will make a thread and truly really hopefully (more words) hope one of you guys at least address it. It's regarding Shadow Trap for the thieves. (edited this comment to not seem rude)

[Bottles.2095]

> @"Lithril Ashwalker.6230" said:

> " but we ask that you keep discussion to the items we're focusing on here. " tbh, weve been asking for alot of fixes and tweaking of specific things, skills have been broken for years, gathering dust in utility bar because they do not work and you guys seem to throw those out the window for new skills when no one can fix the ones we had before. you want build diversity but i just want skills to work...please consider fixing Shadow Trap, there are countless threads made regarding it.

 

That's a fair complaint but clearly this isn't the place to do it. When you're specifically requested to keep feedback on topic and use that as a segue to giving feedback that's not on the topic, you're being rude and not terribly productive.

[Vulf.3098]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> To re-iterate and hopefully clarify something - this update is NOT an end-all resolution to power and condition builds, it is a step toward the goal of accentuating differences will lead to healthier options in several game modes. This is also a smaller scope update.

>

> We'll be listening to your feedback on these types of changes, but we ask that you keep discussion to the items we're focusing on here.

 

I am more concerned about specializations like Revenant that already has a ramp up condi build for PvE but their condition build in PvP is complete trash. A more power oriented build in PvP is already the go to for Herald so are we going to effectively be lowering the damage on condi renegade which is an already DoA build in PvP/WvW?

 

Yes I agree with condition damage burst being nerfed on certain specs but this is not necessarily an issue with all condi builds right now. The reason why a more power oriented rev build is not taken in raids in PvE is due to the fact that it is significantly under performing compared to other power builds in the game. Lowering the condi damage counterpart is not going to fix this issue with build variety and if you lower the damage too much Rev will go back to not being taken in raids at all like it was towards the end of HoT.

 

 

 

 

[Elcoyote solitaire.9052]

Finaly a good move! Condition is a plague in game right now and it is quite the only way to win. I remember a time when conditions were ads to annoy and degen while physically killing and not the other way around.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> To re-iterate and hopefully clarify something - this update is NOT an end-all resolution to power and condition builds, it is a step toward the goal of accentuating differences will lead to healthier options in several game modes. This is also a smaller scope update.

>

> We'll be listening to your feedback on these types of changes, but we ask that you keep discussion to the items we're focusing on here.

 

Here is something to think about.. Every other game uses Direct Damage and Damage Over Time skills for attacks, and Damage Over Time attacks are mitigated by armor and stats as well. In fact, unlike gw2, I’ve never come across a game that didn’t use armor and stats to mitigate a form of damage.

 

From a post I made recently...

 

"These will be simplified suggestions... The changes will be great for wvw, and the rest of the game too.

 

AMA quotes to start...

“We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

 

“Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

 

The Suggestions...

1. A stat, that players can build for with gear, that mitigates condi damage... Toughness would be my personal preference.

 

2. Remove condition damage from auto-attacks.

 

3. Weapon attacks designed for condition damage are changed to DoT (damage over time) skills using 1 particular condition damage per tick. Examples using the AMA quotes for guidance... A power weapon skill is assigned to hit for 1,000 raw damage. A new condi DoT skill is assigned to hit for 1,200 condition damage, and hits an opponent for 300 condition DoT damage over 4 seconds.

 

Ranger Shortbow damage type examples using the above suggestion...

~Crossfire- X power damage. No bleeds.

~Poison Volley- X poison DoT over X seconds.

~Quick Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.

~Crippling Shot- X bleed DoT over X seconds.

~Concussion Shot- X power damage.

 

*You keep in place all the other secondary “stuff” going on with the skills. So Quick Shot still provides evade and swiftness... Crippling Shot still provides cripple and immobilize...

 

4. Assign each individual weapon skill and slot skill to use only 1 type of DoT damaging condition. You still keep secondary movement impairing and hard conditions on skills... Look at the difference between these skills and you’ll see what I mean.

 

Way crazy and over-the-top condi skill, and highlights the overarching condi issues this game faces...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Spite

 

Well designed condi skill, and what I’m talking about with the above with assigning 1 DoT condi to all skills.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Is_Power

 

5. Cleansing skills become power and condi DoT damage mitigation skills, but they still remove secondary soft (cripple, chill, ...) and hard (daze, knock down... ) condition effects. These redesigned cleanses do not remove condi DoT damage...

 

6. Skills that produce hard condition effects remain the same.

 

7. All stats and equipment remain and function the same way, except expertise...Either remove expertise so the devs can have duration control on skills for balance, or expertise can function like precision does, but only for condi DoT damage."

[Ahlen.7591]

Just do it right, don't want to have spend a load of gold/resources to re-stat all my armor again.

[likeaboss.7258]

> @Ahlen.7591 said:

> Just do it right, don't want to have spend a load of gold/resources to re-stat all my armor again.

 

let's hope, but the hope will probably be in vane. anet's true goal is to just make every class equally bad so it's all balanced

[XxsdgxX.8109]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> To re-iterate and hopefully clarify something - this update is NOT an end-all resolution to power and condition builds, it is a step toward the goal of accentuating differences will lead to healthier options in several game modes. This is also a smaller scope update.

>

> We'll be listening to your feedback on these types of changes, but we ask that you keep discussion to the items we're focusing on here.

 

I know guys that you said that you would stick to the quarterly cadence but smaller more constant balance patches is the way to go, so lets see

Thanks again!

[Ghos.1326]

> @Sarrs.4831 said:

> > @Umbramare.9156 said:

> > How to kill condi classes in PvE 101.

>

> Honestly this is something that's needed.

>

> Condition classes *should* do more damage but there should be more ramp and time involved in doing that damage. That's the whole point of a DOT class.

> Power classes buy their instant damage by doing less damage overall.

 

This. Just this. Finally someone that gets it. DoT = Damage Over Time. What is damage over time if it bursts? it's not doing damage over time, it's simply applying large damage in little to no time at all. Conditions should be, as intended, damage over time damage applications, or debuffs to enemies. So glad that someone sees this.

[S Z G.4359]

I'm not quite sure if this is the right place to ask, but is the balance team going to look at buffing underwater fighting in the future. (I know anet doesn't really have support for underwater combat because everyone hate it. Probably because fighting underwater is as fun as punching yourself in the face...)

 

I was always wondering why warriors had:

> _Forceful Greatsword_ : "Gain might on a critical hit with a **greatsword** or _**spear**_. Greatsword and spear skills deal more damage and recharge faster."

 

This buffs their underwater weapon.

 

While say for example necro or guard have

>_Lingering Curse_ : "While wielding a scepter, your condition damage is increased. Conditions inflicted by scepter skills have increased durations." and

>_Zealous Blade_ : "Attacks with your greatsword deal extra damage and heal you. Greatsword abilities have reduced recharge."

 

No buffing of any underwater weapons. I think buffing the trident for necro and the guard would help in underwater combat. (Not really sure about the other classes)

 

**Unrelated note**: Why does underwater rez'ing suck so bad? What was the reason for reducing the healing power there?

[Ashyri.5426]

Im hoping for focus buffs soooooo badly! I just loved the new "The Binding of Ipos" and I wish it could be more useful, specially for necro since it fits the class perfectly.

By the way, thank you very much for it and congratulations on this masterpiece.

[Zaxares.5419]

> @Jinks.2057 said:

> Also people need to realize they can tweak raid bosses and PvE content. What this means if they lower the overall DPS in the game by 10k they can easily lower the overall raid boss HPS by certain amount to compensate.

 

**This.** I think, in fact, the best approach to balance would be to simply set a moderate DPS limit (say, 10-15k) and then draw a line in the sand and go "This is the highest DPS that will ever be allowed in GW2." Any builds that can surpass it get nerfed. Build types that can't meet it get buffed. And then you can design all encounters around it and adjust HP totals for raids and world bosses to match.

 

This applies to PvP too since I honestly feel that one of the big downsides to the PvP scenes is that individual fights tend to be over WAY too fast due to the DPS creep ever since HoT came out. If you're good, you can kill your opponent in a matter of seconds, (and even good fights tend to be over in 20-30 seconds), which just doesn't translate into a good viewing experience for streaming. For the average viewer, it's like the action is over before you really understand what's going on. (Imagine if you went to see a boxing match and every single fight ends with a one-hit KO in the first round.) It's not like the GW1 PvP scene, which tended to be more drawn out and had more opportunities for counter-play and teammates who could res you.

[Justine.6351]

Mutilate defenses looks like a nerf in a longer fight when considering targeted destruction/ focused siphoning for everything other than sword auto attacking. Rev just doesn't have alot of upkeep on vulnerability otherwise which puts the other 2 minor traits in destruction in an awkward spot for anything other than sword aa.

 

Should probably change it from elite to any utility skill and put it at 3stacks:5sec and/or allow it to affect all targets struck before cd.

[Rhyse.8179]

> @Jinks.2057 said:

> Also people need to realize they can tweak raid bosses and PvE content. What this means if they lower the overall DPS in the game by 10k they can easily lower the overall raid boss HPS by certain amount to compensate.

>

> What they can't do is balance the player skill aspect. They can only balance the classes in terms of PvP.

>

> This is why ALL balance should be based on PvP since you can nerf PvE content to compensate for PvP balance changes.

 

GW2 has too many game modes and they all have vastly different balance needs. There are two options: Balance based on PVP, which will result in GW2 being a perpetual salt mine (see: the last 5 years), or to balance for separate game modes.

 

PVP needs control and burst.

PVE needs DPS and sustain.

WVW needs... a reason to exist. That was sarcasm. TBH I don't play it so I dunno what it needs.

Raids need DPS, more DPS, and a Druid. And also more DPS.

 

You simply can't balance one of these game modes based on the other (except perhaps wvw and pvp). It's not possible. Adjusting a boss's HP can't alter the fundamentally different requirements of each environment. Players and developers both have to accept that. If my beloved condi Reaper isn't viable as top tier raid spec, fine. Raids are demanding like that, there isn't room for a sub-par spec. We accept that or don't raid; that's part of accessing that game mode. But I don't want to be denied a slice of cake that I've already baked so someone else can get a cookie. The issue is untargeted changes having unintended consequences. Nerfing deathshroud for *all* builds, in *all* game modes, in order to buff power specs in raids was a huge mistake that has sparked a huge wave of anger. And angry players are not likely to be or remain paying players. It's in Anet's own interest not to pull these stunts.

 

I don't think the game will ever truly be balanced. It's structurally impossible from the game design - there are too many opposed demands to meet. But the closest you can get will be to balance each mode separately. Without the ability to target balance changes specifically where they are needed, there will always be a cascade of unintended consequences, and a bottomless quarry full of salt will be mined with gusto. Balance can be changed without changing skill or class funcitonality, btw. Stat scaling, condition durations, crit magnitudes, all the hidden stats behind each skill can be adjusted as needed per game mode. There are lots of ways to adjust balance with altering the feel and flow of a build. Besides which, PVP and PVE builds are so widely different that it really doesn't matter if they feel the same, because nobody will ever use the same build in both modes.

[Vulf.3098]

> @Justine.6351 said:

> Mutilate defenses looks like a nerf in a longer fight when considering targeted destruction/ focused siphoning for everything other than sword auto attacking. Rev just doesn't have alot of upkeep on vulnerability otherwise which puts the other 2 minor traits in destruction in an awkward spot for anything other than sword aa.

>

> Should probably change it from elite to any utility skill and put it at 3stacks:5sec and/or allow it to affect all targets struck before cd.

 

You would be able to apply 25 stacks instantly with burst of strength but it wouldn't have any real sustainability unless you were condi herald.

[ZeteCommander.4937]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> Wintersday is coming fellow Tyrians and, during the recent AMA, I made reference to a [small balance update](

) and I wished to follow-up to let you know that we're aiming to release that update next Tuesday, 12/12.

>

> ---

>

> We've heard your frustrations with the burstiness of conditions invalidating power builds across game modes (though for differing reasons in each). Conditions have always been intended as a way to achieve strong sustained damage *once it has ramped up*.

>

> This small update has primary two foci:

> * Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage. This should create more opportunities for counterplay, but also feel satisfying to keep conditions rolling once you’ve ramped them up.

> - i.e. We’re tuning some skills that apply damaging conditions so that they apply less stacks up front, but last for longer. In total duration they’re almost the same before and after.

> - e.g. Purging Flames: Burning has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 8 seconds.

> * Re-vamping several passive vulnerability traits to offer more distinct opportunities or create synergy with other traits (rather than being standalone). At small amounts vulnerability doesn’t feel good and adding more vulnerability to something that is capped on it has little value. These changes will offer chances to spike up vulnerability when it is ebbing or encourage new build styles.

> - e.g. Mutilate Defenses: This trait has been reworked and renamed to "Expose Defenses". This trait now causes your first attack when entering combat to inflict 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds. This ability refreshes whenever you use an elite skill.

>

> As always, we’ll be looking for your feedback once you have had a chance to play with the upcoming changes. We’ll start a post here after December 12th to hear your thoughts, so please prepare your most constructive feedback.

>

> See you in the lands!

>

 

 

Now ,there are too many cleaning skills. After the update, condition damage will be useless in PvP (wvw).And there are few weapons that are power damage , only to choose condition

[WolfsFang.2301]

Why not create a separate server to test out balance patches? You can turn them on two weeks before a planned balance patch to gather opinions. I said this in the reddit ama but a small team can only test/scope so much compared to a community of players.

[Cynn.1659]

Rip condi builds, anything with invuln phases, condi becomes instantly useless in there.

[Rhyse.8179]

> @ZeteCommander.4937 said:

> Now ,there are too many cleaning skills. After the update, condition damage will be useless in PvP (wvw).And there are few weapons that are directly damage , only to choose condition

So much this. Conditions are not a choice, or a move to be countered by a particular defense. They are dropped, en masse, by every skill a condition build has. People complain about condition spam, but there's no other choice for a condi weapon user. Some autoattack chains drop 2 or 3 different conditions, even without player input. How do you build balance/countermove system around that? Either you drop enough conditions to be effective, or all your damage is negated by a universal counter (condi cleanse). The middle ground is razor thin.

 

Condi builds are fundamentally the same as power builds - you attack until the target dies. It's a part of the class design. I'm not sure how they can fix it without a *major* overhaul. The only idea I have is to split every cleanse into dps/control cleanses, instead of every cleanse being a universal counter to everything.

 

[GoodWithGravy.8019]

Some ideas off the top of my head, my attempts at solutions haven’t had much thought.....

 

Reaper changes were mixed, in PvE it needs ~20% more avg dps, consider a significant power boost to abilities in shroud which allows competitive dps if life force is managed well.

 

Condi wasn’t the only thing HoT made OP: CC spam needed to be toned down before stability stripping became so widespread. Now it really needs to be.

 

Make weakness affect conditions, add more cast times and telegraphs to major condi abilities. Not much more can be said without seeing the effects of ramping changes.

 

Please consider making some scourge corrupts into strips in wvw.

 

Scourge shade obstruction if owner does not have line of sight - is this intended? It seems to defeat the point of having them.

 

Put an ICD on receiving retaliation damage (at least in wvw). Abilities which do many small hits are currently unusable.

 

Nike WARs in wvw need some kind of counter-play to their escape. They have too much damage, active defence and passive defence to go with their escape abilities. RTL type mechanics on their mobility skills could be a solution. This would have to be skill split.

 

Ele mist form in wvw often does more harm than good since being able to use abilities was removed in its early nerf, now condi is so powerful, being locked out of cleanses undermines the skill. Consider adding ~3 of resistance to it.

 

Bug? - tempest’s eye of the storm trait lets you get stunned (and then stun breaks) even if you have stability. This interrupts any casts occuring. Please make the trait only proc if you do not have stability.

 

Zergs have been 40-60% guardians since release due to their overwhelming support and survival abilities, make some (skill split) alterations to bring in line with other classes.

 

Can’t emphasise the skill splits enough.

 

Please seriously consider the consequences in wvw when you try to balance.

[Medlar.7450]

> @Vrita.7846 said:

> Hopefully Necro will see some love in PvE, they're already underperforming as it is, they don't need to get nerfed further. Necro ramp up time in PvE is really slow compared to other condis classes, and it doesn't help that condi cleanses actually hurt our dps because we can't transfer condis we apply to ourselves. Just give Necros SOMETHING for a change. Someone already mentioned to remove the ICD on Demonic Lore in PvE only, that would help immensely.

 

We have plague sending (curses adept 2), dagger 4 and staff 4. We have several condi transfers open to us, we don't need any more of them.

[Zenith.7301]

Wing 5 favored power classes yet somehow condi specs are being nerfed for no reason whatsoever. Xera, Sabetha, Deimos, Keep Construct, Samarog, Groseval all favor power specs as well. It makes no sense whatsoever other than pure PvP-based hysteria.

 

Your problem isn't that condi is too strong in PvE, it's that you've failed to make any power specs outside guardian, ele, and engineer viable at all.

 

Power ranger, power necro/reaper, power mesmer, power warrior, power thief all pathetically weak compared to dragonhunter, weaver, or holosmith.

 

You've done nothing serious to bring all these classes up in terms of viable power builds. That's why most builds in the game are condi, because most classes don't even have the option to play a power build.