We should prepare for more Mirage nerfs

[ZhouX.8742]

> @Dawdler.8521 said:

> Someone doesnt play WvW where condi is killing the game...

>

> This is more than likely aimed at scourge, not mirage. Confusion/torment specs do damage sure but its actually a pretty weak PvP burster and its few condis to cleanse. Most have dumped mesmer condi specs in favor of shatter spike builds because a condi memser isnt even remotely competetive against a condi scourge. They just press a few buttons and bam you got like 10 conditions on you and certain death because you are dropping 5k+ hp a second instantly. PvE raid dps is irrelevant. Thats the real burst. Now make these ~50% of the foes you meet and glhf.

>

> Or at least I would hope so.

 

It applies everywhere, condi builds dominate all game modes at the moment. In WvW and PvP this is mostly due to 2 classes - Scourge and condi Mirage. In PvE you'll see almost every top damage spec condi based or straight support for the most part.. This has been needed for a while to tone down the effectiveness of condi builds over power in all game modes.

[Genesis.5169]

> @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> > @Genesis.5169 said:

> > LOL Mesmers will never have nice things.

> >

> > 

> >

> >

> > 5 Year old mesmer i remember back during core where everyone cried about mass invis and portal, then in HoT when every cried about bunker even tho FB bunker is FAR worse. I'm really tired of this the community hates the class because they can't faceroll it so they cry nerf and Anet being who they are just listen to tears and throws objectivity out of the window ima just delete the mesmer now because its clear unless mesmers are stuck at the bottom of the dps list and at the bottom of pvp the community will never be satisfied.

> >

> > GG anet and GW2 community i wish you all a terrible god kitten holiday.

> >

> > @Genesis.5169 said:

> > I know how you feel but you should try to play other classes, mesmers are terrible at taging in large OW event like lake doric and DS as a mesmer you have to put in alot of work and when your on cd you really get punished. I've played as a holo/ele/gaurd/necro and i can tell you they have way better OW experience due to the fact that they have tools that are always readily available vs us we have to wait on clones or phantasm cds. Chrono may have it somewhat easier then mirage but your still relying on wells that have fairly long cds to tag and if your taging with them your not getting the alacrity from it unless your in the fight standing on it which opens up other cans of worms because some fights you just can't stay in melee in, and to boot your ranged aoe options outside of well is staff and gs 3 and 4 is laughable compare to what classes can do with just there autos.

>

> So your whole argument was based on tagging mobs in open world trains? That's it?

> And if you needed Alacrity for these sort of content, have you tried running Sigil of Frenzy?

>

>

>

 

Is that not the metric on which we base how we some one does in OW content? Single player content in the OW can be done by any class in any spec with any gear. And Certain even in this respect in no category does a mesmer do better then any class. I would argue in OW mesmer falls below average in quality of life in OW content.

 

Survivability = Necro/Warrior

Aoe = Ele

Single Target = Engineer/Gaurdian

HP = Necro

Movement Speed = Ele

Active defenses = Gaurdian/Necro

Passive Defenses = Ele/Gaurdian

Healing = Druid/Tempest

 

Honorable mention ranger pets do the same job as our phantasms in OW PvE such as tanking mobs and extra damages, ofcouse having 3 phantasms is better then one pet but then your likely not to shatter thus baring you from your class mechanics, which is a huge QoL issue that no class has.

 

Honestly i could be wrong here i've been on a mesmer for awhile and i play other classes to there are huge contrasts in OW settings with those classes and mesmers. Mesmers are amazing for instance content though for buffs and break bars. If you feel differently explain maybe i am missing something.

 

_Even the rate of how we aoe farm is the slowest around....._

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @Genesis.5169 said:

> > @AliamRationem.5172 said:

> > > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > > @Levetty.1279 said:

> > > > This will kill condi in PvE for anything that isn't a raid boss/high level fractal. Clone Mirage needs buffing up to be back above Phantasms (and not be buggy) which a general condition nerf isn't likely to give, the last thing Mesmer needs is more ramp up and power Mesmer is terrible outside of PvP so its not like this is opening anything up to us.

> > > >

> > > > I swear all you people care about is hitting that test golem.

> > >

> > > Funnily enough, mesmer already struggles in general open world PvE due its poor class mechanics. This won't make it any worse than we've been dealing with for the past 5 years.

> >

> > Actually, Condi mirage is fantastic for open world. But that's due in large part to the Condi burst. Depending how hard we get hit, this could have a significant impact on the first legitimately awesome mesmer spec in open world.

>

> I know how you feel but you should try to play other classes, mesmers are terrible at taging in large OW event like lake doric and DS as a mesmer you have to put in alot of work and when your on cd you really get punished. I've played as a holo/ele/gaurd/necro and i can tell you they have way better OW experience due to the fact that they have tools that are always readily available vs us we have to wait on clones or phantasm cds. Chrono may have it somewhat easier then mirage but your still relying on wells that have fairly long cds to tag and if your taging with them your not getting the alacrity from it unless your in the fight standing on it which opens up other cans of worms because some fights you just can't stay in melee in, and to boot your ranged aoe options outside of well is staff and gs 3 and 4 is laughable compare to what classes can do with just there autos.

 

Your priorities are different. I don't spend a lot of time running with the zerg. Mirage has strong burst, sustained dps, and survivability. That's why I say it's strong in open world.

 

Mirage it's also particularly vulnerable to Condi burst nerfs because it relies on clones, which deal no power damage on AA. We don't have a strong power burst setup to fall back on with mirage. Take away Condi burst and we may end up hating open world play again even if it works out fine in raids.

[Xibalbar.7459]

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19600/upcoming-wintersday-balance-update

>

> Looks like they are killing condi in PvE to appease the 5 people who still play PvP.

 

To bad tons of people dont play one mode exclusive and gw2 offers more than raid. At end, how you know the changes will kill your dps in all? Its same damage over longer duration. Higher stackings possible? Your hidden powerdamage called condis was not like DAMAGE OVER TIME should work. But these 5 ppl will clap!

[Kundry.1249]

While burst condi in pvp probably needs some work, GW2 condis aren't really proper DoTs in the sense of most other MMOs anyway, especially as far as high-end PvE (boss fights) is concerned. In games like WoW or FFXIV, the main characteristic of a DoT is that they have higher DPET (damage per execute time) than direct damage skills, and hence take higher priority in the rotation, but can't be stacked so that after applying your DoTs you'd use your other skills in the rotation. In GW2 conditions are infinitely stackable so you keep using condi skills in your rotation non-stop. The main feature of GW2 condis in PvE is that they ignore toughness.

[KeoLegend.5132]

I hope Condi gets killed.

Imo it should be some extra damage you add to your POWER that isn't mitigated by armor. Instead ppl focus 120% of their damage on it.

 

Maybe they start bringing Power Mesmer/Chrono up again, how i loved that Crit-Swordsman class <3

[apharma.3741]

Just going to post this here because some people are either too blind or too kitten to actually understand why the rebalance is going to be a non issue for mesmer.

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19481/30-2k-dps-mirage-clone-build#latest

 

Watch the video, look at the skills in game. There are only 3 skills used that inflict anything over 2 stacks of any condition. They won’t nerf prestige because it’s a non issue, crystal sands is a non issue outside of PvE which only leaves jaunt as possibly being affected, which won’t significantly ramp up the time to get to max DPS. At 10s after starting they were doing 20k, 20s after starting 24.8k and close to max at 30s after starting with an incredibly simple and easy to execute rotation. It is literally let your clones auto and use your ambush skill as much as possible while spamming elite, heal and crystal shards off CD.

 

Cyninja made a good list of the locations as to why the balance doesn’t affect anything but raids really, even then if you want to play condi mirage chances are unless you’re playing with really good players you’ll likely be the top on boss dps due to simple rotations. Just people won’t take more than 1 condi mirage.

[Zoser.7245]

> @"Xibalbar.7459" said:

> > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19600/upcoming-wintersday-balance-update

> >

> > Looks like they are killing condi in PvE to appease the 5 people who still play PvP.

>

> To bad tons of people dont play one mode exclusive and gw2 offers more than raid. At end, how you know the changes will kill your dps in all? Its same damage over longer duration. Higher stackings possible? Your hidden powerdamage called condis was not like DAMAGE OVER TIME should work. But these 5 ppl will clap!

 

The dps no, but the build yes. Without a burst of conditions the conditon builds become boring against power builds, it was like that since the beginning of the game and will be next week too. And the majority of players will avoid the slower builds, so yes, PVE will be affected with less viable and/or played builds. And that could affect the player base of some specializations and professions too. It'll depend of how hard the nerf is individually and this happen because they don't split game modes properly. It's to be seen if the boring tank meta could comes back to PVP. WvW due to it's nature will be more balanced.

 

It doesn't exist a law that say how a condition must work. A designer decide what to create or not, change, etc. They even can erase the power damage of the game and invent whatever they want.

 

WvW is fun due to the community and all subgames modes there, sieges, duels, roaming, raids, etc. But PVP in this game become boring and repetitive after few days playing, toxic players still live there, and the small player base of PVP confirm it, for dailies and no more. So those players should profit to clap all they can while some players still remain there all time playing against the same players.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @OriOri.8724 said:

> > > @Levetty.1279 said:

> > > This will kill condi in PvE for anything that isn't a raid boss/high level fractal. Clone Mirage needs buffing up to be back above Phantasms (and not be buggy) which a general condition nerf isn't likely to give, the last thing Mesmer needs is more ramp up and power Mesmer is terrible outside of PvP so its not like this is opening anything up to us.

> > >

> > > I swear all you people care about is hitting that test golem.

> >

> > Funnily enough, mesmer already struggles in general open world PvE due its poor class mechanics. This won't make it any worse than we've been dealing with for the past 5 years.

>

> Actually, Condi mirage is fantastic for open world. But that's due in large part to the Condi burst. Depending how hard we get hit, this could have a significant impact on the first legitimately awesome mesmer spec in open world.

 

Mirage suffers from a lack of easily accessible AoE options. Shatters have large drawbacks to using them, and sometimes are too slow to tag somethign in an event anyway due to needing to wait for the illusions to run up to the target to shatter. Not to mention that the only way for mirage to fix the single target aspect of mesmer's illusions (which is the real pain point for OW PvE if we're being honest) is to micromanage them and continuously switch targets right before one dies to conditions. That's pure tediousness that no other class has to deal with in PvE.

 

So no, Mirage really isn't fantastic for OW compared to pretty much every other profession. Its better than core mesmer, yea, but still not great. Its a strong dueling class, good for soloing champions. I won't deny that, but that isn't OW PvE

[Zoser.7245]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> Just going to post this here because some people are either too blind or too kitten to actually understand why the rebalance is going to be a non issue for mesmer.

>

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19481/30-2k-dps-mirage-clone-build#latest

>

> Watch the video, look at the skills in game. There are only 3 skills used that inflict anything over 2 stacks of any condition. They won’t nerf prestige because it’s a non issue, crystal sands is a non issue outside of PvE which only leaves jaunt as possibly being affected, which won’t significantly ramp up the time to get to max DPS. At 10s after starting they were doing 20k, 20s after starting 24.8k and close to max at 30s after starting with an incredibly simple and easy to execute rotation. It is literally let your clones auto and use your ambush skill as much as possible while spamming elite, heal and crystal shards off CD.

>

> Cyninja made a good list of the locations as to why the balance doesn’t affect anything but raids really, even then if you want to play condi mirage chances are unless you’re playing with really good players you’ll likely be the top on boss dps due to simple rotations. Just people won’t take more than 1 condi mirage.

 

For the Mirage, the nerf could come from the amount of conditions that you can stack in a combo with your clones. It isn't about that build, take into account that the golem doesn't spam skills and doesn't move. The upcoming balance, if affects us, will be due to other game mode, not PVE. Imagine if they decide to use the new count system in some way about that, too scary! I believe that they should split better the game modes and stop f*****. But we'll see next week.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Zoser.7245" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > Just going to post this here because some people are either too blind or too kitten to actually understand why the rebalance is going to be a non issue for mesmer.

> >

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19481/30-2k-dps-mirage-clone-build#latest

> >

> > Watch the video, look at the skills in game. There are only 3 skills used that inflict anything over 2 stacks of any condition. They won’t nerf prestige because it’s a non issue, crystal sands is a non issue outside of PvE which only leaves jaunt as possibly being affected, which won’t significantly ramp up the time to get to max DPS. At 10s after starting they were doing 20k, 20s after starting 24.8k and close to max at 30s after starting with an incredibly simple and easy to execute rotation. It is literally let your clones auto and use your ambush skill as much as possible while spamming elite, heal and crystal shards off CD.

> >

> > Cyninja made a good list of the locations as to why the balance doesn’t affect anything but raids really, even then if you want to play condi mirage chances are unless you’re playing with really good players you’ll likely be the top on boss dps due to simple rotations. Just people won’t take more than 1 condi mirage.

>

> For the Mirage, the nerf could come from the amount of conditions that you can stack in a combo with your clones. It isn't about that build, take into account that the golem doesn't spam skills and doesn't move. The upcoming balance, if affects us, will be due to other game mode, not PVE. Imagine if they decide to use the new count system in some way about that, too scary! I believe that they should split better the game modes and stop f*****. But we'll see next week.

 

I know but the people my post is directed at are only concerned at PvE. In PvP mesmer stacks conditions far too quickly and does need toning down, I think we will see a change to jaunt most likely but the rest is a lot harder to figure out as it’s multiple skills doing 2 confusion being used to put 8-14 confusion on someone quickly. I don’t think anyone can say that condi mirage is balanced and keep a straight face, we aren’t even seeing IH builds which can burst crazy amounts of conditions though are more risky as no EM.

[Xibalbar.7459]

> @"Zoser.7245" said:

> > @"Xibalbar.7459" said:

> > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19600/upcoming-wintersday-balance-update

> > >

> > > Looks like they are killing condi in PvE to appease the 5 people who still play PvP.

> >

> > To bad tons of people dont play one mode exclusive and gw2 offers more than raid. At end, how you know the changes will kill your dps in all? Its same damage over longer duration. Higher stackings possible? Your hidden powerdamage called condis was not like DAMAGE OVER TIME should work. But these 5 ppl will clap!

>

> The dps no, but the build yes. Without a burst of conditions the conditon builds become boring against power builds, it was like that since the beginning of the game and will be next week too. And the majority of players will avoid the slower builds, so yes, PVE will be affected with less viable and/or played builds. And that could affect the player base of some specializations and professions too. It'll depend of how hard the nerf is individually and this happen because they don't split game modes properly. It's to be seen if the boring tank meta could comes back to PVP. WvW due to it's nature will be more balanced.

>

> It doesn't exist a law that say how a condition must work. A designer decide what to create or not, change, etc. They even can erase the power damage of the game and invent whatever they want.

>

> WvW is fun due to the community and all subgames modes there, sieges, duels, roaming, raids, etc. But PVP in this game become boring and repetitive after few days playing, toxic players still live there, and the small player base of PVP confirm it, for dailies and no more. So those players should profit to clap all they can while some players still remain there all time playing against the same players.

 

What is the point if DAMAGE OVER TIME is working like powerdamage?

[Zenith.7301]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @Levetty.1279 said:

> > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19600/upcoming-wintersday-balance-update

> >

> > Looks like they are killing condi in PvE to appease the 5 people who still play PvP.

>

> TBF having conditions spike their damage near instantly goes against the entire reasoning behind them being DoT effects. This has the potential to be quite a good balance change in the long run

 

Not really. The majority of the top raid fights already favor power builds. Xera, Deimos, the whole Wing 5, Sabetha, KC, Gorseval, Samarog, Vale Guardian. Basically any fight with adds that need to be quickly cleaved down or boss that has phasing that clears condi ramp up royally screws condi builds.

 

Fractals already favor weaver/DH.

 

Condi builds were never dominant in PvE for being condi. They were dominant because outside ele, guardian, and engineer, Anet has done diddly squat to make ranger/necro/mesmer/warrior/revenant power builds not total garbage.

 

It is their abject failure in bringing the vast majority of power builds up to weaver/DH/holosmith that has skewed representation, not the strength of condi.

 

This is as usual total PvP hysteria ruining builds for PvE.

 

> @"Xibalbar.7459" said:

> > @"Zoser.7245" said:

> > > @"Xibalbar.7459" said:

> > > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19600/upcoming-wintersday-balance-update

> > > >

> > > > Looks like they are killing condi in PvE to appease the 5 people who still play PvP.

> > >

> > > To bad tons of people dont play one mode exclusive and gw2 offers more than raid. At end, how you know the changes will kill your dps in all? Its same damage over longer duration. Higher stackings possible? Your hidden powerdamage called condis was not like DAMAGE OVER TIME should work. But these 5 ppl will clap!

> >

> > The dps no, but the build yes. Without a burst of conditions the conditon builds become boring against power builds, it was like that since the beginning of the game and will be next week too. And the majority of players will avoid the slower builds, so yes, PVE will be affected with less viable and/or played builds. And that could affect the player base of some specializations and professions too. It'll depend of how hard the nerf is individually and this happen because they don't split game modes properly. It's to be seen if the boring tank meta could comes back to PVP. WvW due to it's nature will be more balanced.

> >

> > It doesn't exist a law that say how a condition must work. A designer decide what to create or not, change, etc. They even can erase the power damage of the game and invent whatever they want.

> >

> > WvW is fun due to the community and all subgames modes there, sieges, duels, roaming, raids, etc. But PVP in this game become boring and repetitive after few days playing, toxic players still live there, and the small player base of PVP confirm it, for dailies and no more. So those players should profit to clap all they can while some players still remain there all time playing against the same players.

>

> What is the point if DAMAGE OVER TIME is working like powerdamage?

 

 

There's no point to damage over time if power damage has burst and is competitive in sustained damage.

 

Burst damage is always better than damage over time.

 

In WoW, DoTs are good because they allow for cleaving and can be used to spread damage over spread targets.

 

In GW2, direct damage and most damage from melee weapons cleaves baseline, so spreading dots has no advantage to make up for their lack of burst. Every attack except for thief/necro dagger is already aoe.

 

There is virtually no advantage whatsoever to dots in this game in PvE, since burst damage cleaves better, aoes better, deals with priority adds better, and works better in burst/stun phases better.

 

Power builds are not weak. Weaver is the best class in game, and the world first clear of Wing 5 used DH.

 

What's weak is the power builds for necro/revenant/thief/warrior/mesmer/ranger that Anet won't even bother buffing enough because of PvP as usual.

[Carighan.6758]

But the example given in that thread actually seems like a PvE **buff** for conditions?

 

3 stacks for 5 seconds is 15 effective seconds of burning.

2 stacks for 8 seconds is 16 total.

 

Unless I'm missing something here. Where is the nerf part. Other than the more PvP-relevant but potential, which makes little sense on condition centric specs to begin with.

[Zoser.7245]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> But the example given in that thread actually seems like a PvE **buff** for conditions?

>

> 3 stacks for 5 seconds is 15 effective seconds of burning.

> 2 stacks for 8 seconds is 16 total.

>

> Unless I'm missing something here. Where is the nerf part. Other than the more PvP-relevant but potential, which makes little sense on condition centric specs to begin with.

 

Use the second example:

**Mutilate Defenses:** (Adept minor trait of Devastation, Revenant)

Critically striking a foe gives you a chance to apply vulnerability.

Chance on Critical Hit: 33%

Vulnerability.png Vulnerability (6s): 1% Incoming Damage, 1% Incoming Condition Damage.

 

**After the nerf:** (a revamp in the dev's words................ ha ha ha.....)

- e.g. Mutilate Defenses: This trait has been reworked and renamed to "Expose Defenses". This trait now causes your first attack when entering combat to inflict 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds. This ability refreshes whenever you use an elite skill.

 

Or in other words, pass from a usefull trait that works all the time helping with your sustain to a crap trait that will only worth if by casuality you open the combat with a premature elite skill...

 

It's better wait till after the patch. The first example is like hey! we'll make the conditions slower but nothing more, you'll end doing more or less the same damage, all is ok. The second example is like a tease of the many we have seen in the past and a clear nerf. So it's better to wait and read all the changes. We don't know how many balance changes each specialization will receive. One single change can't be a lot relevant, a handful of them could be a disaster.

 

On practice, in open world you'll lose farm and profits against power based builds, because they'll clean all trash before you do enough damage. Of course, hybrid builds with viper or sinister, etc, should still work but not as good as now. In raid it doesn't matter, benchmarks will reign there as usual and chrono (for now) should be there (who knows). In pvp you should be dead before start to be a threat to your enemy and if not, they'd have enough time to clean and blink out. Call it counterplay... They has the right to burst you but you can't do the same with conditions... because yes, or by the face. You must to waste your invulneravility or aegis to prevent their burst damage but they don't want to waste their cleanses with your burst, so next week they'll don't need it, some seconds later after down you to the ground, perhaps, they'll use it if necessary. That's all from the player's point of view.

 

How hard it'll be, it's to be seen, only they know or even unknown watching other mistakes done before. Perhaps all this is more simple, make cycles of domination on purpose, force people to adapt and never let things settle too much. In other words, shake the meta and market, do business... from the anet's point of view.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Zoser.7245" said:

> > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > But the example given in that thread actually seems like a PvE **buff** for conditions?

> >

> > 3 stacks for 5 seconds is 15 effective seconds of burning.

> > 2 stacks for 8 seconds is 16 total.

> >

> > Unless I'm missing something here. Where is the nerf part. Other than the more PvP-relevant but potential, which makes little sense on condition centric specs to begin with.

>

> Use the second example:

> **Mutilate Defenses:** (Adept minor trait of Devastation, Revenant)

> Critically striking a foe gives you a chance to apply vulnerability.

> Chance on Critical Hit: 33%

> Vulnerability.png Vulnerability (6s): 1% Incoming Damage, 1% Incoming Condition Damage.

>

> **After the nerf:** (a revamp in the dev's words................ ha ha ha.....)

> - e.g. Mutilate Defenses: This trait has been reworked and renamed to "Expose Defenses". This trait now causes your first attack when entering combat to inflict 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds. This ability refreshes whenever you use an elite skill.

>

> Or in other words, pass from a usefull trait that works all the time helping with your sustain to a crap trait that will only worth if by casuality you open the combat with a premature elite skill...

>

> It's better wait till after the patch. The first example is like hey! we'll make the conditions slower but nothing more, you'll end doing more or less the same damage, all is ok. The second example is like a tease of the many we have seen in the past and a clear nerf. So it's better to wait and read all the changes. We don't know how many balance changes each specialization will receive. One single change can't be a lot relevant, a handful of them could be a disaster.

>

> On practice, in open world you'll lose farm and profits against power based builds, because they'll clean all trash before you do enough damage. Of course, hybrid builds with viper or sinister, etc, should still work but not as good as now. In raid it doesn't matter, benchmarks will reign there as usual and chrono (for now) should be there (who knows). In pvp you should be dead before start to be a threat to your enemy and if not, they'd have enough time to clean and blink out. Call it counterplay... They has the right to burst you but you can't do the same with conditions... because yes, or by the face. You must to waste your invulneravility or aegis to prevent their burst damage but they don't want to waste their cleanses with your burst, so next week they'll don't need it, some seconds later after down you to the ground, perhaps, they'll use it if necessary. That's all from the player's point of view.

>

> How hard it'll be, it's to be seen, only they know or even unknown watching other mistakes done before. Perhaps all this is more simple, make cycles of domination on purpose, force people to adapt and never let things settle too much. In other words, shake the meta and market, do business... from the anet's point of view.

 

I will admit, for PvE I am 100% more worried about the vulnerability changes than anything else. It seems they want to get rid of many ways to keep 25 vuln on enemies yet the harsh reality is that we have been skirting ever closer to that reality for a long time with many top raiding guilds several months ago highlighting a lack of vulnerability conditions as a weakness of builds and comps. Who knows, storm spirit meta?

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @Levetty.1279 said:

> > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19600/upcoming-wintersday-balance-update

> > >

> > > Looks like they are killing condi in PvE to appease the 5 people who still play PvP.

> >

> > TBF having conditions spike their damage near instantly goes against the entire reasoning behind them being DoT effects. This has the potential to be quite a good balance change in the long run

>

> Not really. The majority of the top raid fights already favor power builds. Xera, Deimos, the whole Wing 5, Sabetha, KC, Gorseval, Samarog, Vale Guardian. Basically any fight with adds that need to be quickly cleaved down or boss that has phasing that clears condi ramp up royally screws condi builds.

>

> Fractals already favor weaver/DH.

>

> Condi builds were never dominant in PvE for being condi. They were dominant because outside ele, guardian, and engineer, Anet has done diddly squat to make ranger/necro/mesmer/warrior/revenant power builds not total garbage.

>

> It is their abject failure in bringing the vast majority of power builds up to weaver/DH/holosmith that has skewed representation, not the strength of condi.

>

> This is as usual total PvP hysteria ruining builds for PvE.

>

 

So I have to point out that PvP and WvW do exist, and in those modes this is absolutely the healthiest thing they could have done to conditions without heavy handed nerfs to them.

 

And the problems you pointed out about raid bosses. I was not intending to argue that condi builds are currently favored in all high end content, I apologize if it came off that way. And I do agree that condi faces a lot of problems with some encounters due to needing to ramp up, and encounter design working against that. I think that's a problem that needs to be fixed with the encounters themselves rather than keeping conditions in such a burst state. It could be stuff like phasing keeps the state of the conditions on the boss when it phases. Plus, its not unhealthy for some encounters to favor power builds, or to favor condition builds even after these changes. As long as its a healthy mix (ie some favor condi builds, some favor power, some favor neither) then it will be better in my opinion

[Zenith.7301]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > @Levetty.1279 said:

> > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19600/upcoming-wintersday-balance-update

> > > >

> > > > Looks like they are killing condi in PvE to appease the 5 people who still play PvP.

> > >

> > > TBF having conditions spike their damage near instantly goes against the entire reasoning behind them being DoT effects. This has the potential to be quite a good balance change in the long run

> >

> > Not really. The majority of the top raid fights already favor power builds. Xera, Deimos, the whole Wing 5, Sabetha, KC, Gorseval, Samarog, Vale Guardian. Basically any fight with adds that need to be quickly cleaved down or boss that has phasing that clears condi ramp up royally screws condi builds.

> >

> > Fractals already favor weaver/DH.

> >

> > Condi builds were never dominant in PvE for being condi. They were dominant because outside ele, guardian, and engineer, Anet has done diddly squat to make ranger/necro/mesmer/warrior/revenant power builds not total garbage.

> >

> > It is their abject failure in bringing the vast majority of power builds up to weaver/DH/holosmith that has skewed representation, not the strength of condi.

> >

> > This is as usual total PvP hysteria ruining builds for PvE.

> >

>

> So I have to point out that PvP and WvW do exist, and in those modes this is absolutely the healthiest thing they could have done to conditions without heavy handed nerfs to them.

>

> And the problems you pointed out about raid bosses. I was not intending to argue that condi builds are currently favored in all high end content, I apologize if it came off that way. And I do agree that condi faces a lot of problems with some encounters due to needing to ramp up, and encounter design working against that. I think that's a problem that needs to be fixed with the encounters themselves rather than keeping conditions in such a burst state. It could be stuff like phasing keeps the state of the conditions on the boss when it phases. Plus, its not unhealthy for some encounters to favor power builds, or to favor condition builds even after these changes. As long as its a healthy mix (ie some favor condi builds, some favor power, some favor neither) then it will be better in my opinion

 

It's garbage binary design. I shouldn't feel pressured to swap to a condi or power class because an encounter totally gimps you like KC or Xera or Samarog or Deimos. It's plain stupid. The new wing goes as far as to spam reistance, completely gutting most condi specs since not even a necromancer or mesmer can keep up with stripping and they'd need to sacrifice key utility to do so, so people bring power specs instead. This is not about a difference of 10% output, some fights completely gimp condition specs, and the only scenario in which condition specs get anywhere close to that is maybe Matthias out of all the boss fights, and even there weavers are doing pretty damn well.

 

I don't want to go back to another several years of ele and guardian dominance while everyone else is screwed. The condi "meta" saw by far the most class representation there has ever been, since power spec balance across classes is a total mess.

 

WvW is impossible to balance, it's ridiculous to even try balancing about it. It's 30-40 man zerg fights in a pvp format that for some incredibly stupid reason allows PvE gear and consumables. How about they start by addressing that instead of gutting builds in PvE as collateral.

 

Put condi duration caps and disallow runes, food, and sigils that are not allowed in spvp. Reduce crit damage cap to 60% just like spvp, remove condi duration extension just like spvp. That's the best you can do, and zerg combat is going to be an imbalanced mess no matter what. You'll just substitute condition bombs for melee trains instead, with guardians pinballing the zerg all over once there are no condition spikes to pressure them out.

 

Then there's spvp where thief is power and the meta roamer, mesmer is power and meta team utility/roamer, soulbeast plays power, holosmith is power, warrior plays power. Only necro plays condition and that's because the power spec for necro is absolute garbage.

 

So I really don't get this whining and the most important, easily balanced format of PvE being demolished for the sake of zergfests that will move on to complain against the next thing they lose to, as pvp players always have.

 

PvE content is static, so it can be balance around. PvP will always be imbalanced, because it pits people of disparate skill against each other. It's a virtually impossible format to balance since nothing stays constant. It's a complete waste of resources for a format that a fraction of the people play at the expense of the vast majority of PvE players.

[Amineo.8951]

> @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > > @Levetty.1279 said:

> > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19600/upcoming-wintersday-balance-update

> > > > >

> > > > > Looks like they are killing condi in PvE to appease the 5 people who still play PvP.

> > > >

> > > > TBF having conditions spike their damage near instantly goes against the entire reasoning behind them being DoT effects. This has the potential to be quite a good balance change in the long run

> > >

> > > Not really. The majority of the top raid fights already favor power builds. Xera, Deimos, the whole Wing 5, Sabetha, KC, Gorseval, Samarog, Vale Guardian. Basically any fight with adds that need to be quickly cleaved down or boss that has phasing that clears condi ramp up royally screws condi builds.

> > >

> > > Fractals already favor weaver/DH.

> > >

> > > Condi builds were never dominant in PvE for being condi. They were dominant because outside ele, guardian, and engineer, Anet has done diddly squat to make ranger/necro/mesmer/warrior/revenant power builds not total garbage.

> > >

> > > It is their abject failure in bringing the vast majority of power builds up to weaver/DH/holosmith that has skewed representation, not the strength of condi.

> > >

> > > This is as usual total PvP hysteria ruining builds for PvE.

> > >

> >

> > So I have to point out that PvP and WvW do exist, and in those modes this is absolutely the healthiest thing they could have done to conditions without heavy handed nerfs to them.

> >

> > And the problems you pointed out about raid bosses. I was not intending to argue that condi builds are currently favored in all high end content, I apologize if it came off that way. And I do agree that condi faces a lot of problems with some encounters due to needing to ramp up, and encounter design working against that. I think that's a problem that needs to be fixed with the encounters themselves rather than keeping conditions in such a burst state. It could be stuff like phasing keeps the state of the conditions on the boss when it phases. Plus, its not unhealthy for some encounters to favor power builds, or to favor condition builds even after these changes. As long as its a healthy mix (ie some favor condi builds, some favor power, some favor neither) then it will be better in my opinion

>

> It's garbage binary design. I shouldn't feel pressured to swap to a condi or power class because an encounter totally gimps you like KC or Xera or Samarog or Deimos. It's plain stupid. The new wing goes as far as to spam reistance, completely gutting most condi specs since not even a necromancer or mesmer can keep up with stripping and they'd need to sacrifice key utility to do so, so people bring power specs instead. This is not about a difference of 10% output, some fights completely kitten condition specs, and the only scenario in which condition specs get anywhere close to that is maybe Matthias out of all the boss fights, and even there weavers are doing pretty kitten well.

>

> I don't want to go back to another several years of ele and guardian dominance while everyone else is screwed. The condi "meta" saw by far the most class representation there has ever been, since power spec balance across classes is a total mess.

>

> WvW is impossible to balance, it's ridiculous to even try balancing about it. It's 30-40 man zerg fights in a pvp format that for some incredibly stupid reason allows PvE gear and consumables. How about they start by addressing that instead of gutting builds in PvE as collateral.

>

> Put condi duration caps and disallow runes, food, and sigils that are not allowed in spvp. Reduce crit damage cap to 60% just like spvp, remove condi duration extension just like spvp. That's the best you can do, and zerg combat is going to be an imbalanced mess no matter what. You'll just substitute condition bombs for melee trains instead, with guardians pinballing the zerg all over once there are no condition spikes to pressure them out.

>

> Then there's spvp where thief is power and the meta roamer, mesmer is power and meta team utility/roamer, soulbeast plays power, holosmith is power, warrior plays power. Only necro plays condition and that's because the power spec for necro is absolute garbage.

>

> So I really don't get this whining and the most important, easily balanced format of PvE being demolished for the sake of zergfests that will move on to complain against the next thing they lose to, as pvp players always have.

>

> PvE content is static, so it can be balance around. PvP will always be imbalanced, because it pits people of disparate skill against each other. It's a virtually impossible format to balance since nothing stays constant. It's a complete waste of resources for a format that a fraction of the people play at the expense of the vast majority of PvE players.

 

If condi dies then:

-Condi Renegade dies

-Condi Warrior dies

-Soulbeast dies

-Mirage dies

-Scourge is sent to hell because it's already semi-dead

-Condi DD dies

-Firebrand dies

 

And there are only 3 viable power specs in this game: Dragonhunter, Holosmith and Weaver which means much less diversity.

[Zenith.7301]

> @"Amineo.8951" said:

> > @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > > > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > > > @Levetty.1279 said:

> > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/19600/upcoming-wintersday-balance-update

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Looks like they are killing condi in PvE to appease the 5 people who still play PvP.

> > > > >

> > > > > TBF having conditions spike their damage near instantly goes against the entire reasoning behind them being DoT effects. This has the potential to be quite a good balance change in the long run

> > > >

> > > > Not really. The majority of the top raid fights already favor power builds. Xera, Deimos, the whole Wing 5, Sabetha, KC, Gorseval, Samarog, Vale Guardian. Basically any fight with adds that need to be quickly cleaved down or boss that has phasing that clears condi ramp up royally screws condi builds.

> > > >

> > > > Fractals already favor weaver/DH.

> > > >

> > > > Condi builds were never dominant in PvE for being condi. They were dominant because outside ele, guardian, and engineer, Anet has done diddly squat to make ranger/necro/mesmer/warrior/revenant power builds not total garbage.

> > > >

> > > > It is their abject failure in bringing the vast majority of power builds up to weaver/DH/holosmith that has skewed representation, not the strength of condi.

> > > >

> > > > This is as usual total PvP hysteria ruining builds for PvE.

> > > >

> > >

> > > So I have to point out that PvP and WvW do exist, and in those modes this is absolutely the healthiest thing they could have done to conditions without heavy handed nerfs to them.

> > >

> > > And the problems you pointed out about raid bosses. I was not intending to argue that condi builds are currently favored in all high end content, I apologize if it came off that way. And I do agree that condi faces a lot of problems with some encounters due to needing to ramp up, and encounter design working against that. I think that's a problem that needs to be fixed with the encounters themselves rather than keeping conditions in such a burst state. It could be stuff like phasing keeps the state of the conditions on the boss when it phases. Plus, its not unhealthy for some encounters to favor power builds, or to favor condition builds even after these changes. As long as its a healthy mix (ie some favor condi builds, some favor power, some favor neither) then it will be better in my opinion

> >

> > It's garbage binary design. I shouldn't feel pressured to swap to a condi or power class because an encounter totally gimps you like KC or Xera or Samarog or Deimos. It's plain stupid. The new wing goes as far as to spam reistance, completely gutting most condi specs since not even a necromancer or mesmer can keep up with stripping and they'd need to sacrifice key utility to do so, so people bring power specs instead. This is not about a difference of 10% output, some fights completely kitten condition specs, and the only scenario in which condition specs get anywhere close to that is maybe Matthias out of all the boss fights, and even there weavers are doing pretty kitten well.

> >

> > I don't want to go back to another several years of ele and guardian dominance while everyone else is screwed. The condi "meta" saw by far the most class representation there has ever been, since power spec balance across classes is a total mess.

> >

> > WvW is impossible to balance, it's ridiculous to even try balancing about it. It's 30-40 man zerg fights in a pvp format that for some incredibly stupid reason allows PvE gear and consumables. How about they start by addressing that instead of gutting builds in PvE as collateral.

> >

> > Put condi duration caps and disallow runes, food, and sigils that are not allowed in spvp. Reduce crit damage cap to 60% just like spvp, remove condi duration extension just like spvp. That's the best you can do, and zerg combat is going to be an imbalanced mess no matter what. You'll just substitute condition bombs for melee trains instead, with guardians pinballing the zerg all over once there are no condition spikes to pressure them out.

> >

> > Then there's spvp where thief is power and the meta roamer, mesmer is power and meta team utility/roamer, soulbeast plays power, holosmith is power, warrior plays power. Only necro plays condition and that's because the power spec for necro is absolute garbage.

> >

> > So I really don't get this whining and the most important, easily balanced format of PvE being demolished for the sake of zergfests that will move on to complain against the next thing they lose to, as pvp players always have.

> >

> > PvE content is static, so it can be balance around. PvP will always be imbalanced, because it pits people of disparate skill against each other. It's a virtually impossible format to balance since nothing stays constant. It's a complete waste of resources for a format that a fraction of the people play at the expense of the vast majority of PvE players.

>

> If condi dies then:

> -Condi Renegade dies

> -Condi Warrior dies

> -Soulbeast dies

> -Mirage dies

> -Scourge is sent to hell because it's already semi-dead

> -Condi DD dies

> -Firebrand dies

>

> And there are only 3 viable power specs in this game: Dragonhunter, Holosmith and Weaver which means much less diversity.

 

Yeah, people are not understanding how royally these changes are gonna screw PvE.

 

I'm sick and tired of this game living and dying by the whims of barely played PvP.

[apharma.3741]

Of course we will have to wait and see how the changes go through, it may mean only certain skills are changed (likely because they said it’s not a large patch) while many are still left intact so the changes won’t be huge and ramp up times aren’t affected too much. There’s also a big difference between skills used for PvE and PvP as well as how they behave, generally most people have few issues with offhand torch on ranger because it’s easy to dodge and you can walk out of bonfire, same with many skills like this.

 

Also as far as condi vs power in raids goes, currently while “top raid fights favour power builds” this depends entirely on who is playing. Maybe it is for the top 5% of players when likewise playing in a group solely comprised of top players who can support them doing that DPS but most raid groups aren’t like that are they? A lot have these 1 or 2 players that are being carried a bit by the others, some have people carried a lot. Condi builds also synergise better which is a point a lot of people are missing and I find it utter lunacy that no-one seems to be remembering that epidemic is the absolute best cleave in raids bar non, even meteor doesn’t hold a candle to epi especially when you’re in a group where all dps is condi.

 

Condi also has many other things going for it in a lot of builds, if you fluff up the rotation a little or are interrupted it’s less of an issue but on power builds you can get set back by a lot and never fully recover. Condi doesn’t need to be over a health threshold to do maximum damage and has much more simple rotations most of the time offering high dps for low complexity, currently. Currently we have condition, damage over time builds, spiking up to max dps within seconds of entering a fight, sure it’s not as front loaded as some power builds but no way you can say it’s good for the game to have DoT builds putting that much condi out so quick in any mode as it doesn’t make condi vs power an interesting choice at all.

 

This whole thread stinks of what qT and top raid guilds tell people not to be, class kittens. Wait for the changes to come through then see how the ramp up is affected, it’s doubtful any condi class will fall out of use because as I say they’re much more simple and less affected by mistakes. There are absolutely no raid encounters that you will fail by running condi, absolutely none.

[Zenith.7301]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> Of course we will have to wait and see how the changes go through, it may mean only certain skills are changed (likely because they said it’s not a large patch) while many are still left intact so the changes won’t be huge and ramp up times aren’t affected too much. There’s also a big difference between skills used for PvE and PvP as well as how they behave, generally most people have few issues with offhand torch on ranger because it’s easy to dodge and you can walk out of bonfire, same with many skills like this.

>

> Also as far as condi vs power in raids goes, currently while “top raid fights favour power builds” this depends entirely on who is playing. Maybe it is for the top 5% of players when likewise playing in a group solely comprised of top players who can support them doing that DPS but most raid groups aren’t like that are they? A lot have these 1 or 2 players that are being carried a bit by the others, some have people carried a lot. Condi builds also synergise better which is a point a lot of people are missing and I find it utter lunacy that no-one seems to be remembering that epidemic is the absolute best cleave in raids bar non, even meteor doesn’t hold a candle to epi especially when you’re in a group where all dps is condi.

>

> Condi also has many other things going for it in a lot of builds, if you fluff up the rotation a little or are interrupted it’s less of an issue but on power builds you can get set back by a lot and never fully recover. Condi doesn’t need to be over a health threshold to do maximum damage and has much more simple rotations most of the time offering high dps for low complexity, currently. Currently we have condition, damage over time builds, spiking up to max dps within seconds of entering a fight, sure it’s not as front loaded as some power builds but no way you can say it’s good for the game to have DoT builds putting that much condi out so quick in any mode as it doesn’t make condi vs power an interesting choice at all.

>

> This whole thread stinks of what qT and top raid guilds tell people not to be, class kittens. Wait for the changes to come through then see how the ramp up is affected, it’s doubtful any condi class will fall out of use because as I say they’re much more simple and less affected by mistakes. There are absolutely no raid encounters that you will fail by running condi, absolutely none.

 

What you say is not even borne by the parsing data on raidar. A median weaver (hard) is still leading a median dragonhunter (faceroll easy) by about 7k DPS on keep construct as an example, and the gap gets even larger against condi builds on unfavorable fights to condi, which are the bosses you normally don't even bother pugging.

 

Condi builds are no easier than a dragonhunter or holosmith. Playing a condi soulbeast is pretty damn involved compared to playing any power build that is not a weaver.

 

You people always say to wait and see, but I don't need to wait to know what I'll see.

 

Mirage was wrecked out of existence, as was scourge. 10k+ dps loss in their "balance" changes, removing the specs completely from raiding outside the niche epidemic one trick pony.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > Of course we will have to wait and see how the changes go through, it may mean only certain skills are changed (likely because they said it’s not a large patch) while many are still left intact so the changes won’t be huge and ramp up times aren’t affected too much. There’s also a big difference between skills used for PvE and PvP as well as how they behave, generally most people have few issues with offhand torch on ranger because it’s easy to dodge and you can walk out of bonfire, same with many skills like this.

> >

> > Also as far as condi vs power in raids goes, currently while “top raid fights favour power builds” this depends entirely on who is playing. Maybe it is for the top 5% of players when likewise playing in a group solely comprised of top players who can support them doing that DPS but most raid groups aren’t like that are they? A lot have these 1 or 2 players that are being carried a bit by the others, some have people carried a lot. Condi builds also synergise better which is a point a lot of people are missing and I find it utter lunacy that no-one seems to be remembering that epidemic is the absolute best cleave in raids bar non, even meteor doesn’t hold a candle to epi especially when you’re in a group where all dps is condi.

> >

> > Condi also has many other things going for it in a lot of builds, if you fluff up the rotation a little or are interrupted it’s less of an issue but on power builds you can get set back by a lot and never fully recover. Condi doesn’t need to be over a health threshold to do maximum damage and has much more simple rotations most of the time offering high dps for low complexity, currently. Currently we have condition, damage over time builds, spiking up to max dps within seconds of entering a fight, sure it’s not as front loaded as some power builds but no way you can say it’s good for the game to have DoT builds putting that much condi out so quick in any mode as it doesn’t make condi vs power an interesting choice at all.

> >

> > This whole thread stinks of what qT and top raid guilds tell people not to be, class kittens. Wait for the changes to come through then see how the ramp up is affected, it’s doubtful any condi class will fall out of use because as I say they’re much more simple and less affected by mistakes. There are absolutely no raid encounters that you will fail by running condi, absolutely none.

>

> What you say is not even borne by the parsing data on raidar. A median weaver (hard) is still leading a median dragonhunter (faceroll easy) by about 7k DPS on keep construct as an example, and the gap gets even larger against condi builds on unfavorable fights to condi, which are the bosses you normally don't even bother pugging.

>

> Condi builds are no easier than a dragonhunter or holosmith. Playing a condi soulbeast is pretty kitten involved compared to playing any power build that is not a weaver.

>

> You people always say to wait and see, but I don't need to wait to know what I'll see.

>

> Mirage was wrecked out of existence, as was scourge. 10k+ dps loss in their "balance" changes, removing the specs completely from raiding outside the niche epidemic one trick pony.

 

On KC, nice of you to cherry pick the one fight ele has been the best at because of large hit box.

 

VG

Power builds median 11k except yolosmith at 13k

Condi builds median 10k

 

Gorseval

Power builds median12-14k weaver is ahead but not by much.

Condi builds median 12-15k

 

Sabetha

Power builds median 9-12k holosmith being the exception at 15k

Condi builds median 12-14k

Note: this depends entirely on who has to jump, usually power builds but in a full condi comp condi jumps too so these numbers will always be weird.

 

Slothasor

Power builds median 10-12k

Condi builds median all close to 10k

 

Bandit trio

No data.

 

Matthias

Power builds median 7.5-8.5k with holosmith hitting 10.6k alone

Condi builds median 10.6-14k most are 11k range and only mirage is top for obvious reasons.

 

Escort

No data.

 

KC

Power builds median 17-20k with weaver at 25k but this fight is heavily skewed towards burst which is where power shines.

Condi builds median 11.7-13k doubtful they would fail for running condi though.

 

Xera - only taking first half of fight as teleports skew numbers a lot but the actual on boss fight changes very little.

Power builds median 8.3-11k lots of spread most in the lower part of range

Condi builds median 10-11k

 

Cairn

Power builds median 6-14k there’s such a massive spread here that comparing is almost impossible most 10k or below.

Condi builds median 10-19k a big spread but all condi builds are noticeably outperforming most power builds.

 

Mursaat Overseer

Power builds median 19-22k DD and tempest noticeably lower 13 and 15k respectively

Condi builds median 19-24k there are some further down, weaver, scourge and engineer all in 16-17k, I don’t count reaper as this is after the changes forcing it away from condi.

 

Samarog

Power builds median 8-11.5k

Condi build median 7-9k this fight clearly hurts condi because of invuln phases but condi is much better on Rigom phase and tighter median.

 

Deimos

Power builds median 10.5-14k only weaver is 14k most are 10.5k or lower.

Condi builds median 11k most are around this mark give or take.

 

I won’t include wing 5 as it’s too new for reliable data. I discounted outdated builds mostly and obviously discounted condi druid as it’s a support spec in dps clothing. Data is from 28th Nov patch. Numbers are approximated unless a range is given.

 

So yeah apart from 2 fights the median weaver isn’t massively doing more dps over the fight with them performing worse in other fights. There’s also about the same number of fights skewed to condi builds as there are skewed to power builds. Not seeing where condi is being made to be a worse choice, I mean we can start looking at 90th percentile if you want but generally speaking condi reigns supreme for a fair chunk of it with weaver being one of the only consistant power builds to pull away in most fights but most power builds lag behind till MO and the rest of wing 4 and yes I mean the only 3 you consider competitive. We shouldn’t compare power and condi on KC and Cairn imo because the fights heavily favour one over the other respectively.

 

Edit: likewise Matthias and Samarog favour condi and power respectively so comparisons on them are not good to make either. However one thing is clear, there’s very few fights where running a condi comp for whatever reason instead of power will cause you to fail with maybe the exception of KC if you have 5 median condi dps, they would have to be pulling 90th percentile numbers to clear that I would think.

[musu.9205]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

 

> Condi also has many other things going for it in a lot of builds, if you fluff up the rotation a little or are interrupted it’s less of an issue but on power builds you can get set back by a lot and never fully recover. Condi doesn’t need to be over a health threshold to do maximum damage and has much more simple rotations most of the time offering high dps for low complexity, currently. Currently we have condition, damage over time builds, spiking up to max dps within seconds of entering a fight, sure it’s not as front loaded as some power builds but no way you can say it’s good for the game to have DoT builds putting that much condi out so quick in any mode as it doesn’t make condi vs power an interesting choice at all.

>

 

"Condi also has many other things going for it in a lot of builds, if you fluff up the rotation a little or are interrupted it’s less of an issue but on power builds you can get set back by a lot and never fully recover"

 

except that's not true , all builds even weaver has skill priority list ,gw2 doesn't really have solid resource system to make such punishing gameplay as "never fully recover "

take a look at holosmith burst window with > 50% heat or Elements of Rage(8) under 100% quickness .

 

"no way you can say it’s good for the game to have DoT builds putting that much condi out so quick in any mode as it doesn’t make condi vs power an interesting choice at all"

 

as long as that massive condi burst isn't instantly application with passive traits , short cd and many cover condition ,also condi cleanse exists in pvp , condition dmg is fine . scourge and mirage balance problem is not due to condition being burst .otherwise burn guard would be meta in pvp already .also in other game the ways to remove dot are very limited which isn't true in gw2 . you fail a dodge , you die to power damage , you fail to condition cleanse you die to condition damage . the problem is too many cover condition through passive gameplay or instantly casting skills.

 

stop treating gw2 condition dmg as DOT in other games .

gw2 condition damage was balanced around the** constantly reapply** and stack both dmg /sec in pve .it is different gameplay . if anet fails to balance the damage in pvp , ask for specific nerf / buff to certain spec / skill / trait . condition doesn't need to be slow .

 

when condition was actually slow , it was never meta , and it will never be meta .even with current balance the aoe condition cleanse from support spec was/ is / will be always stronger than any single condition spec . it was bunker guard , aura tempest and now it is firebrand . condition spec either becomes useless or op with stupid amount of aoe like scourge in pvp. support was/is broken in pvp . but anyway anet listened to this clueless playerbase .without changing to game mode and how support works in this game , there is no way to balance condition in pvp .we are on a wheel now .

 

and back to topic , anet should remove /rework elusive mind before nerfing mirage burst . it's a freaking glassy spec which has 1 dmg condition - confusion ,2 cover conditions - blind + torment without much sustain , its EM alone which makes meta build too forgiving . anet could remove daze or clone generation from sword ambush which will have zero impact on pve .

but hey let's take worst possible path to balance all game mode .

 

 

 

 

[musu.9205]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Zenith.7301" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > Of course we will have to wait and see how the changes go through, it may mean only certain skills are changed (likely because they said it’s not a large patch) while many are still left intact so the changes won’t be huge and ramp up times aren’t affected too much. There’s also a big difference between skills used for PvE and PvP as well as how they behave, generally most people have few issues with offhand torch on ranger because it’s easy to dodge and you can walk out of bonfire, same with many skills like this.

> > >

> > > Also as far as condi vs power in raids goes, currently while “top raid fights favour power builds” this depends entirely on who is playing. Maybe it is for the top 5% of players when likewise playing in a group solely comprised of top players who can support them doing that DPS but most raid groups aren’t like that are they? A lot have these 1 or 2 players that are being carried a bit by the others, some have people carried a lot. Condi builds also synergise better which is a point a lot of people are missing and I find it utter lunacy that no-one seems to be remembering that epidemic is the absolute best cleave in raids bar non, even meteor doesn’t hold a candle to epi especially when you’re in a group where all dps is condi.

> > >

> > > Condi also has many other things going for it in a lot of builds, if you fluff up the rotation a little or are interrupted it’s less of an issue but on power builds you can get set back by a lot and never fully recover. Condi doesn’t need to be over a health threshold to do maximum damage and has much more simple rotations most of the time offering high dps for low complexity, currently. Currently we have condition, damage over time builds, spiking up to max dps within seconds of entering a fight, sure it’s not as front loaded as some power builds but no way you can say it’s good for the game to have DoT builds putting that much condi out so quick in any mode as it doesn’t make condi vs power an interesting choice at all.

> > >

> > > This whole thread stinks of what qT and top raid guilds tell people not to be, class kittens. Wait for the changes to come through then see how the ramp up is affected, it’s doubtful any condi class will fall out of use because as I say they’re much more simple and less affected by mistakes. There are absolutely no raid encounters that you will fail by running condi, absolutely none.

> >

> > What you say is not even borne by the parsing data on raidar. A median weaver (hard) is still leading a median dragonhunter (faceroll easy) by about 7k DPS on keep construct as an example, and the gap gets even larger against condi builds on unfavorable fights to condi, which are the bosses you normally don't even bother pugging.

> >

> > Condi builds are no easier than a dragonhunter or holosmith. Playing a condi soulbeast is pretty kitten involved compared to playing any power build that is not a weaver.

> >

> > You people always say to wait and see, but I don't need to wait to know what I'll see.

> >

> > Mirage was wrecked out of existence, as was scourge. 10k+ dps loss in their "balance" changes, removing the specs completely from raiding outside the niche epidemic one trick pony.

>

> On KC, nice of you to cherry pick the one fight ele has been the best at because of large hit box.

>

> VG

> Power builds median 11k except yolosmith at 13k

> Condi builds median 10k

>

> Gorseval

> Power builds median12-14k weaver is ahead but not by much.

> Condi builds median 12-15k

>

> Sabetha

> Power builds median 9-12k holosmith being the exception at 15k

> Condi builds median 12-14k

> Note: this depends entirely on who has to jump, usually power builds but in a full condi comp condi jumps too so these numbers will always be weird.

>

> Slothasor

> Power builds median 10-12k

> Condi builds median all close to 10k

>

> Bandit trio

> No data.

>

> Matthias

> Power builds median 7.5-8.5k with holosmith hitting 10.6k alone

> Condi builds median 10.6-14k most are 11k range and only mirage is top for obvious reasons.

>

> Escort

> No data.

>

> KC

> Power builds median 17-20k with weaver at 25k but this fight is heavily skewed towards burst which is where power shines.

> Condi builds median 11.7-13k doubtful they would fail for running condi though.

>

> Xera - only taking first half of fight as teleports skew numbers a lot but the actual on boss fight changes very little.

> Power builds median 8.3-11k lots of spread most in the lower part of range

> Condi builds median 10-11k

>

> Cairn

> Power builds median 6-14k there’s such a massive spread here that comparing is almost impossible most 10k or below.

> Condi builds median 10-19k a big spread but all condi builds are noticeably outperforming most power builds.

>

> Mursaat Overseer

> Power builds median 19-22k DD and tempest noticeably lower 13 and 15k respectively

> Condi builds median 19-24k there are some further down, weaver, scourge and engineer all in 16-17k, I don’t count reaper as this is after the changes forcing it away from condi.

>

> Samarog

> Power builds median 8-11.5k

> Condi build median 7-9k this fight clearly hurts condi because of invuln phases but condi is much better on Rigom phase and tighter median.

>

> Deimos

> Power builds median 10.5-14k only weaver is 14k most are 10.5k or lower.

> Condi builds median 11k most are around this mark give or take.

>

> I won’t include wing 5 as it’s too new for reliable data. I discounted outdated builds mostly and obviously discounted condi druid as it’s a support spec in dps clothing. Data is from 28th Nov patch. Numbers are approximated unless a range is given.

>

> So yeah apart from 2 fights the median weaver isn’t massively doing more dps over the fight with them performing worse in other fights. There’s also about the same number of fights skewed to condi builds as there are skewed to power builds. Not seeing where condi is being made to be a worse choice, I mean we can start looking at 90th percentile if you want but generally speaking condi reigns supreme for a fair chunk of it with weaver being one of the only consistant power builds to pull away in most fights but most power builds lag behind till MO and the rest of wing 4 and yes I mean the only 3 you consider competitive. We shouldn’t compare power and condi on KC and Cairn imo because the fights heavily favour one over the other respectively.

>

> Edit: likewise Matthias and Samarog favour condi and power respectively so comparisons on them are not good to make either. However one thing is clear, there’s very few fights where running a condi comp for whatever reason instead of power will cause you to fail with maybe the exception of KC if you have 5 median condi dps, they would have to be pulling 90th percentile numbers to clear that I would think.

 

2-3k dps difference per dps slot result like 10k-15k total dps difference .and why holosmith has to be something special ? its not like its insanely hard to play .

and how you thought samarog favour condi and power respectively .

and for many bosses , power build is better for mechanic like shard clean , cannon etc .