Why did we get an xpac weapon that does nothing?

[Buran.3796]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> I would disagree with that statement. As ANOTHER poster already observed, there was a desire by the community to have a ranged condi weapon to compliment the Mace ... the SB is it ... if I recall correctly, it wasn't even out of a PVP/WvW interest.

>

 

Uhhh... I was one of the most vocal beggars pleading for a condi ranged weapon even before the PoF leaks that happened in January of this year. The reason was clear: condi Revenant was useles in both PvP and WvW roaming due lacked mobility enough to keep the pace of Thieves, Mesmers, Rangers and Warriors, so they were able kite at range and kill us effortlesly without the condi Rev being able to put any condi pressure over then.

 

Then the shortbow was known and I was happy: "they heard us".

 

Finally the beta arrived... and I had to throw up. The weapon wasn't only sub par in terms of performance (pure damage), and lacked any usable and meaningful tool for player vs player interaction (blocks, evades, movement skills... ) but also was so clunky in the way it releases it's sub par skills even in PvE (with all the random obstacles which prevents any use of #3, #4 and #5) that I entirely stopped to run both the short bow, Kalla and even the traitline in less than two weeks after the PoF release. I mean, Wooden Potatoes in the beta review of the Renegade fell in downed state two times fighting vs a bot in the Hall of Mist. The beta also cleared my mind because before the expansion was looking at the possibility to craft Chuka & Champawat, so being the spec and its weapon so dysmally bad for PvP/WvW helped me to save ~3.000 gold coins.

 

Was also a mind opener because showed me how clueless the devs seems to be about the competitive gamemodes. I mean: you see Harada playing it's own Tekken games and you known that He knowns what's doing. I can't remember the lastest time I saw an ANet programmer playing WvW/PvP, much less at high level playing.

[otto.5684]

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > > @"Buran.3796" said:

> > > I personally don't play hammer, but short bow has nothing remotely comparable to the degree of usefulness the hammer provides:

> >

> > Against anyone that knows how to play. Hammer offers nothing. Get Melee. Boom it loses most of its damage. It will do well against bad players which luckily is what Anet have targeted this game towards now. They have shown through FORCED bad balance that promotes builds over skill that Anet doesnt care what so ever about having SKILLED players. They would happily lose all the good players for bad players if it meant more Gem store purchases.

>

> >

>

> Maybe you should take a look at Bryvanent streams on twitch, because He's beating necros with hammer at platinum tiers in season 9... I known, I known: is not legend tier, but happens that NA legend tier doesn't exist because the population is so low that there's less than 10 dudes at that rank. Soo... albeit sub-optimal for the task, currently hammer can beat very good necro players (and some others)if used smartly, in part due He doesn't pair it with staff but with sword + shield, which means that still can kill things in mele.

 

A bit off the main topic, but my experience as well that hammer does really good against scourges. It is not ideal solo, but if you keep your distance in a team fight, it plays like deadeye, dealing more damage with no setup and better mobility.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> I would argue that feedback != Anet taking action, so be careful when you make that correlation. See, when the feedback is mostly threads like THIS, you can't, at all, be surprised it's ignored. Players need to step up and call these threads out, EVEN if you think SBow isn't good. These threads have a NEGATIVE impact in Anet using our experience to help them out.

 

Aaaaand he does it again...what a surprise.

[GoZero.9708]

Renegade is only useful if you don't take the Renegade-specific weapon and don't really use the Renegade-specific legend. That goes double in WvW and triple in PvP. Of all the PoF Elite Specs it's widely regarded as the worst because the only damn good it does is Kalla's Fervor benefiting DPS of older builds and the F2-4 skills adding two decent support skills and a really weird to aim AoE burst. I mean just look at all the Elite specs from PoF and you'll see just how much Renegade falls short of all of them.

Firebrand, Spellbreaker, and Scourge are so popular I don't even need to bring up what makes each so good, Holosmith, Deadeye, and Mirage have huge DPS increases with close range damage, range damage, and condi damage with their weapons and skills respectively, and Soulbeast and Weaver have huge class changing features that give them a lot of flexibility and add in a good number of alternative strategies. Meanwhile little Renegade has lower DPS when using almost anything related to Kalla's Legend besides group-share bleeds, has one of the worst trait lines in the game where only the Grandmaster traits dictate anything about the build (oh yeah two traits that activate when gaining Fury but Kalla's only access to fury is when you hit an enemy that's already halfway defeated), and was gifted with the awesome aspect of having _AOEs with healthbars_.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> Obtena, how can you say a forum discussion isn't a place to make discussion of discontent?

 

No, I'm saying that people should take a little more effort to present their discontent in a way that is discussable to begin with. For some reason, we get the opposite:

 

"Yo Anet, Rev sucks, FIX IT" ... **literally**

 

If you honestly care about how Anet regards this class and the collective feedback/opinion we have of it, threads like this should be getting SLAMMED into submission.

 

 

 

 

[JayAction.9056]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> > Obtena, how can you say a forum discussion isn't a place to make discussion of discontent?

>

> No, I'm saying that people should take a little more effort to present their discontent in a way that is discussable to begin with. For some reason, we get the opposite:

>

> "Yo Anet, Rev sucks, FIX IT" ... **literally**

>

> If you honestly care about how Anet regards this class and the collective feedback/opinion we have of it, threads like this should be getting SLAMMED into submission.

>

>

>

>

 

There is nothing else to be said. Renegade and short bow are bad enough that 5 minutes on the pvp dummy or playing it against a semi decent PVE target would give you an idea of how bad it is.

 

I think it's weird that it even need be brought to attention. It's been months.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"JayAction.9056" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> > > Obtena, how can you say a forum discussion isn't a place to make discussion of discontent?

> >

> > No, I'm saying that people should take a little more effort to present their discontent in a way that is discussable to begin with. For some reason, we get the opposite:

> >

> > "Yo Anet, Rev sucks, FIX IT" ... **literally**

> >

> > If you honestly care about how Anet regards this class and the collective feedback/opinion we have of it, threads like this should be getting SLAMMED into submission.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> There is nothing else to be said. Renegade and short bow are bad enough that 5 minutes on the pvp dummy or playing it against a semi decent PVE target would give you an idea of how bad it is.

>

> I think it's weird that if even need be brought to attention. It's been months.

 

How bad it is isn't relevant. I know that's a completely foreign concept to you but I can only point to the many places in this game where 'bad' stuff exists.

[JayAction.9056]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"JayAction.9056" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> > > > Obtena, how can you say a forum discussion isn't a place to make discussion of discontent?

> > >

> > > No, I'm saying that people should take a little more effort to present their discontent in a way that is discussable to begin with. For some reason, we get the opposite:

> > >

> > > "Yo Anet, Rev sucks, FIX IT" ... **literally**

> > >

> > > If you honestly care about how Anet regards this class and the collective feedback/opinion we have of it, threads like this should be getting SLAMMED into submission.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > There is nothing else to be said. Renegade and short bow are bad enough that 5 minutes on the pvp dummy or playing it against a semi decent PVE target would give you an idea of how bad it is.

> >

> > I think it's weird that if even need be brought to attention. It's been months.

>

> How bad it is isn't relevant. I know that's a completely foreign concept to you but I can only point to the many places in this game where 'bad' stuff exists.

 

I don't think there is anybody NA that is doing better on rev than me. Hasn't been since like season 1. It obviously needs some buffs. Whatever else you are saying to justify it being bad is just smoke.

[Obtena.7952]

Sure it needs buffs ... but it being a bad weapon isn't the reason for it. Being bad is just a consequence of other weapons being good. That's intended by the design of the game; it can't BE any other way.

 

Also, just stating the obvious, in a most sarcastic way doesn't help anyone here figure out what needs to be done ... Again "REV BAD, ... FIX NOW" ... so insightful. I don't take issue with what you are saying (though it's pretty thin on content to begin with), it's HOW you are saying it ... or more clearly, what you aren't saying.

[JayAction.9056]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Sure it needs buffs ... but it being a bad weapon isn't the reason for it. Being bad is just a consequence of other weapons being good. That's intended by the design of the game; it can't BE any other way.

>

> Also, just stating the obvious, in a most sarcastic way doesn't help anyone here figure out what needs to be done ... Again "REV BAD, ... FIX NOW" ... so insightful.

 

You look like an idiot straight up. You say it needs buffs but the reason for needing a buff is not because it's bad? For what other reason would something need buffs?

 

Brah you live in the twilight zone.

[Obtena.7952]

You're the one making a thread about why SB is a bad weapon that does nothing ... and you say I'm the idiot because I recognize Anet has deeper reasons for changing how weapons work? Wow ... yes, you have this all figured out with your BRAH thread ... Anet is just stampeding to buff every single thing in this game ... just because BAD. I can't wait to see the results.

[Kain Francois.4328]

It's a ranged condi weapon.

 

It really should've been baseline though, since this essentially locks non-renegades out of range condi.

 

Perhaps the bow needs some more tweaking, but it's by no means pointless. You just don't seem to like its role.

[Kaizok.7839]

I like the SB (I don't take mace + axe anymore). But, I must admit that it's a bad weapon.

AA is ok.

Skill 2 : there 1, or sometimes, 2 arrows that miss. Ground is problematic and can nullify the attack.

Skill 3 : is the hardest skill to land on this entire game. A single step make you completely waste the skill. And like skill 2, ground and walls are a problem.

Skill : 4 is slow, so you need to use #5 just before to knockdown your enemy or you will miss. And you can't use it without line of sight.

Skill : 5 is decent, i like it.

 

So, the skills have real problems. We don't have any evade or movement ability like sb of others class.

And this is just for the weapon, Kalla have a lot of problems too.

[Minax.3284]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Sure it needs buffs ... but it being a bad weapon isn't the reason for it. Being bad is just a consequence of other weapons being good. That's intended by the design of the game; it can't BE any other way. [...]

 

This only holds true to a certain degree in game design.

 

A power gap is perfectly reasonable and something that will always happen in any game that gives you multiple options to build a character in. And that is totally fine as long as it doesn't go into extremes. If there is a difference in power between different talents/skills/classes that is more than~10-20% it will kick playstyles from 'not optimal, but viable' to 'not competitive' and people will generally want to avoid them; outliers (in either direction) need to be brought in line.

 

If you read up on game design and look at change logs from other games over multiple patch cycles you can usually see this happen, especially in MMOs. If it doesn't, you tend to end up with "non-options": playstyles that exist on paper, but in real situations are so terrible in comparison to the alternatives that only die-hard fans will use them for their flair. This generally leads to severe under representation, which in turn will make developers less likely to spend a lot of time on the issue - making it even less likely to get said playstyles brought to a viable level.

 

TL;DR Yes, there will always be 'best' and 'worst' weapons, but in good game design the power gap between them cannot be literal country miles.

[Obtena.7952]

I'm not here to argue that SB isn't good or how wide the good/bad gap is. I've already said it's not a good weapon and I think it needs to be improved ... and I have no doubt that even if it takes years, changes are made. Therefore, there isn't any real value in just expressing how bad something is. My whole point is that the OP thinks he's doing some massive service for us by simply pointing this obvious fact out in his sensational, sarcastic manner. As a community, we need to demand more of ourselves if we expect Anet to take us seriously. Honestly, how does an Anet dev come to the forum and read this thread (and many others like it) and think they are getting good value for their time? Threads like this are a major disservice to anyone who cares enough to make thoughtful feedback. It's like adding a drop of the most pure water to a cesspool. Frankly, the OP doesn't care about the class enough to do this. He cares enough about making himself cool by making jokes though ... real helpful.

 

I'm ticked off that people who seemingly care don't take the effort to give good feedback and CONTRIBUTE to threads such as this. Do yourselves a favour ... ignore this thread and post thoughtful ideas here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/20380/how-can-the-shortbow-be-improved#latest

 

[Milan.9035]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> I'm not here to argue that SB isn't good or how wide the good/bad gap is. I've already said it's not a good weapon and I think it needs to be improved ... and I have no doubt that even if it takes years, changes are made. Therefore, there isn't any real value in just expressing how bad something is. My whole point is that the OP thinks he's doing some massive service for us by simply pointing this obvious fact out in his sensational, sarcastic manner. As a community, we need to demand more of ourselves if we expect Anet to take us seriously. Honestly, how does an Anet dev come to the forum and read this thread (and many others like it) and think they are getting good value for their time? Threads like this are a major disservice to anyone who cares enough to make thoughtful feedback. It's like adding a drop of the most pure water to a cesspool. Frankly, the OP doesn't care about the class enough to do this. He cares enough about making himself cool by making jokes though ... real helpful.

>

> I'm ticked off that people who seemingly care don't take the effort to give good feedback and CONTRIBUTE to threads such as this. Do yourselves a favour ... ignore this thread and post thoughtful ideas here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/20380/how-can-the-shortbow-be-improved#latest

>

 

Hahaha, this dude is funny

 

 

Anyways there is too much wrong with renegade. This is a aspec that should have been stopped at the brainstorming session. Now its too late to make it useable in pvp or wvw. Lets move on.

[Aninika.6819]

I get Obtena's point but the way you're arguing it is just as bad as the people you're complaining about. SB is in a bad place, and I don't have any constructive criticism for it because I won't touch it, but Anet will probably fix it next balance patch because their balance style is fixing under used traits/skills/weapons (which is why sword OH got changes that no one asked for). If no one, or barely anyone, is using SB, they'll fix it so that more people start using it.

[Garr.1823]

> @"Aninika.6819" said:

>but Anet will probably fix it next balance patch because their balance style is fixing under used traits/skills/weapons (which is why sword OH got changes that no one asked for). If no one, or barely anyone, is using SB, they'll fix it so that more people start using it.

 

No one using Renegade. Even people who use it (~1/50 revenants) don't use Kalla skill line - cause it is a pinnacle of mental impotence.

It was clear when Renegade was in beta, and still nothing was changed.

Nothing at all. So I would not rely on Anet fast reaction on .. anything. To be honest - I don't think that they will change anything. I just hope that person who is responsible for Renegade (especially utility skills) would not be allowed to ruin anything again.

Next global update, new profession, something like that, in several years - could be.

[JayAction.9056]

> @"Garr.1823" said:

> > @"Aninika.6819" said:

> >but Anet will probably fix it next balance patch because their balance style is fixing under used traits/skills/weapons (which is why sword OH got changes that no one asked for). If no one, or barely anyone, is using SB, they'll fix it so that more people start using it.

>

> No one using Renegade. Even people who use it (~1/50 revenants) don't use Kalla skill line - cause it is a pinnacle of mental impotence.

> It was clear when Renegade was in beta, and still nothing was changed.

> Nothing at all. So I would not rely on Anet fast reaction on .. anything. To be honest - I don't think that they will change anything. I just hope that person who is responsible for Renegade (especially utility skills) would not be allowed to ruin anything again.

> Next global update, new profession, something like that, in several years - could be.

 

im with it, co sign