Deadeye is totally balanced, you guys

[MUDse.7623]

> @"eldrjth.7384" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

>

> > Conversely, both sides can be correct.

> > Everyone who denounced the sniper concept before the DE was even released knew that this would happen. You can't balance a sniper OHKO thief. It's a complete failure of design, not numbers.

> >

> > With obvious counterplay to negate the damage, it's weak. Without such tells, it's absolutely broken. If you cut the OHKO potential out but keep the playstyle, it has no value anywhere and can't deliver the numbers the concept needs.

>

> If they got rid of the one hit kill and raised the overall dps on the weapon set then there wouldnt be a problem. Who says an ohk power **had** to be part of the kit in the first place? (its ohk but think about the long ramp up time to achieve this move) and who says that in order to balance a class for PvP you have to hamstring it in PvE? Maybe its Anet who should have thought about balance more carefully when they designed DE. The rifle set as a whole feels clunky to use, kneeling should be a profession skill roll shouldnt share the same skill slot as DJ, and Dead eyes mark shouldnt take forever to cast and be uninterruptible by a players own action. Totally bad execution. Its not like they couldnt fix the issues right now, or that a sniper class is inherently a bad design, even if they wanted DJ to hit hard. Could just make it a 3 hit kill skill that cost less initiative so players can react to their HP going down.

 

the question is how much dmg is ok ? i can also hit up to 20-25k backstab with my deadeye build wich is onehit for alot of opponents that run squishy. the DJ is easier to avoid than Backstab and needs more preperation so i guess it should hit harder.

the problem is outside of stealth the defense while on rifle is rather low aside from opponents you can kite with death's retreat like most nekros and warriors and the initative costs are too high to keep up constant high preassure with it.

yes there are alot of issues with rifle and deadeye . if the DJ bullet would allways hit the marked target and not get stuck on a target on the way and thief had better access to unblockable (for instance change Hidden Killer 100% crit chance to an unblockable buff ) then further nerfs to DJ would be ok, like an even slower bullet.

but a sniper will never be in a good balanced position for competitive fight a 3HKO with that much preperation while too risky to stay out of stealth no matter the now increased damage, will put deadeye in even worse position for competitive fights and possibly strip deadeye of his WvW gimmick option, might gain a pve relevance tho depending on how much you buff it. but they already started to buff the pve dmg for it - dont think they will change the mechanic only to kill the WvW gimmick.

[Elyxia.2943]

damage on spvp is fine

problem is castime + laserlightshow (cd skills) and ini

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"eldrjth.7384" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

>

> > Conversely, both sides can be correct.

> > Everyone who denounced the sniper concept before the DE was even released knew that this would happen. You can't balance a sniper OHKO thief. It's a complete failure of design, not numbers.

> >

> > With obvious counterplay to negate the damage, it's weak. Without such tells, it's absolutely broken. If you cut the OHKO potential out but keep the playstyle, it has no value anywhere and can't deliver the numbers the concept needs.

>

> If they got rid of the one hit kill and raised the overall dps on the weapon set then there wouldnt be a problem. Who says an ohk power **had** to be part of the kit in the first place? (its ohk but think about the long ramp up time to achieve this move) and who says that in order to balance a class for PvP you have to hamstring it in PvE? Maybe its Anet who should have thought about balance more carefully when they designed DE. The rifle set as a whole feels clunky to use, kneeling should be a profession skill roll shouldnt share the same skill slot as DJ, and Dead eyes mark shouldnt take forever to cast and be uninterruptible by a players own action. Totally bad execution. Its not like they couldnt fix the issues right now, or that a sniper class is inherently a bad design, even if they wanted DJ to hit hard. Could just make it a 3 hit kill skill that cost less initiative so players can react to their HP going down.

 

DPS rarely correlates to PvP success, especially in this game-state. Aside from builds with a lot of long-duration sustain tools, burst is pretty much always how things operate in terms of actually killing a player in PvP in action-based games. Find the gap (or make one), and punish as hard and fast as possible in that time while not exposing yourself to counter-attack.

 

If they gave rifle a multi-hit burst attack, then there's really no distinction really between it and P/P Daredevil. Except P/P DrD has more mobility, better sustained boons, probably better sustained pressure, and overall superior damage with similar or superior stealth uptime. So unless DJ's damage was better than Unload (which already hits for absolutely stupid damage), the build is then forced into being a gimmick that just camps the backline and fires haphazardly, skill-lessly, while generating downs/kills. There's a reason Bearbow rangers are/were made fun of in the olden days. The same for ZvZ hammer power rev. It's a stupid build which carried terrible players into being... slightly less terrible via frustration because of one or two overtuned abilities. The DE would end up in the exact same boat and that's a slap in the face to everything the thief as a profession is designed regarding.

 

If the rifle DE is designed to fill that "sniper" fantasy, it's going to be all about burst and stealth. And there's really just no real fair or fun/interactive way to make that concept work as a whole without just changing how it plays and the entire concept of the spec. The warnings and tells are there as they are because those are the necessities to be able to out-play a massive nuke from a ranged, mobile combatant who you don't know where is located. Unlike most other stealth nukes, you're limited in your own capability to react, almost solely determined by build. D/P SA/Bound thief is just as guilty and is why I advocated for the removal of such unhealthy styles for so long. The clunkiness is a consequence for allowing the kit to exist because otherwise it simply **will** be overpowered by design based on the core thief's kit.

 

If they were going to buff DJ's consistency and speed of application, they would have to increase the initiative cost to prevent spam and probably nerf the overall amount of stealth accessible. The DE can't be a super-competitive pick without being downright oppressive or unfun to play against. And there is zero merit to trying to defend something that isn't fun to play against in a PvP context. Absolutely none.

 

The sniper concept just isn't compatible with the rest of GW2.

 

 

 

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"eldrjth.7384" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> >

> > > Conversely, both sides can be correct.

> > > Everyone who denounced the sniper concept before the DE was even released knew that this would happen. You can't balance a sniper OHKO thief. It's a complete failure of design, not numbers.

> > >

> > > With obvious counterplay to negate the damage, it's weak. Without such tells, it's absolutely broken. If you cut the OHKO potential out but keep the playstyle, it has no value anywhere and can't deliver the numbers the concept needs.

> >

> > If they got rid of the one hit kill and raised the overall dps on the weapon set then there wouldnt be a problem. Who says an ohk power **had** to be part of the kit in the first place? (its ohk but think about the long ramp up time to achieve this move) and who says that in order to balance a class for PvP you have to hamstring it in PvE? Maybe its Anet who should have thought about balance more carefully when they designed DE. The rifle set as a whole feels clunky to use, kneeling should be a profession skill roll shouldnt share the same skill slot as DJ, and Dead eyes mark shouldnt take forever to cast and be uninterruptible by a players own action. Totally bad execution. Its not like they couldnt fix the issues right now, or that a sniper class is inherently a bad design, even if they wanted DJ to hit hard. Could just make it a 3 hit kill skill that cost less initiative so players can react to their HP going down.

>

> DPS rarely correlates to PvP success, especially in this game-state. Aside from builds with a lot of long-duration sustain tools, burst is pretty much always how things operate in terms of actually killing a player in PvP in action-based games. Find the gap (or make one), and punish as hard and fast as possible in that time while not exposing yourself to counter-attack.

>

> If they gave rifle a multi-hit burst attack, then there's really no distinction really between it and P/P Daredevil. Except P/P DrD has more mobility, better sustained boons, probably better sustained pressure, and overall superior damage with similar or superior stealth uptime. So unless DJ's damage was better than Unload (which already hits for absolutely stupid damage), the build is then forced into being a gimmick that just camps the backline and fires haphazardly, skill-lessly, while generating downs/kills. There's a reason Bearbow rangers are/were made fun of in the olden days. The same for ZvZ hammer power rev. It's a stupid build which carried terrible players into being... slightly less terrible via frustration because of one or two overtuned abilities. The DE would end up in the exact same boat and that's a slap in the face to everything the thief as a profession is designed regarding.

>

> If the rifle DE is designed to fill that "sniper" fantasy, it's going to be all about burst and stealth. And there's really just no real fair or fun/interactive way to make that concept work as a whole without just changing how it plays and the entire concept of the spec. The warnings and tells are there as they are because those are the necessities to be able to out-play a massive nuke from a ranged, mobile combatant who you don't know where is located. Unlike most other stealth nukes, you're limited in your own capability to react, almost solely determined by build. D/P SA/Bound thief is just as guilty and is why I advocated for the removal of such unhealthy styles for so long. The clunkiness is a consequence for allowing the kit to exist because otherwise it simply **will** be overpowered by design based on the core thief's kit.

>

> If they were going to buff DJ's consistency and speed of application, they would have to increase the initiative cost to prevent spam and probably nerf the overall amount of stealth accessible. The DE can't be a super-competitive pick without being downright oppressive or unfun to play against. And there is zero merit to trying to defend something that isn't fun to play against in a PvP context. Absolutely none.

>

> The sniper concept just isn't compatible with the rest of GW2.

>

>

>

 

More and more I wish it had been a running hip-fire mode and a walking aim-down-sight mode instead of normal and kneeling mode. The running mode would be all about sustained damage and more of a short-ranged brawler whereas the aim-down-sight mode would be more focused on hard and soft CC with slightly less damage than the running mode as a tradeoff. That way you could support your team off while standing off point and control the opponent's bunkers, or you could run into a 1v1 with it.

 

I'm going to agree with you because there's not really a middle ground on how rifle operates due to the mechanics surrounding the damage it delivers. It's either going to be OP or UP depending on the opponent's specific build, and I don't think they can balance it with number adjustments at this point.

[Cynz.9437]

> @"Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046" said:

> After seeing threads like this I always wonder: "How would a necromancer reflect stuff?"

 

You can block it.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrosive_Poison_Cloud

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death%27s_Charge

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Minion <<

[Vertep.2498]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> Defending what DJ is capable of in WvW is a good example to show what's wrong with the community.

>

> "It's fine because other classes can do the same" (I guess realizing that these classes are equally broken is too much for some people)

so why on DE is mostly qq about this broken design and then nerf DE because of that while other broken classes will sill stay here?

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> "It's fine because it has a huge ramp up time" (where it is impossible to fight back which is the definition of bad design and unfun mechanics)

if we cant have removed same unfun playstyles from other classes then yes, its fine, why should we remove this from DE destrying him in this way while other classes will stay untouched again and still be unfun to play

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> "It's fine because you can dodge/block... it" (no you can't dodge/block a melee ranged quickness DJ out of stealth unless your reflexes are godlike)

melee ranged DJ lol, id DE is shoting DJ in melee rangethen its all for one with his risk and his the biggest glass cannon in game, just kill him by maybe 2-3 auto attacks? he have only 11k health at his setup and can say he work as no armor so every skill will hit hard him and in melee range you shouldnt have problem to kill him fast and then its your fault if you get 1shot in "melee range DJ" as you had over 15 sec mark at head to charge this 1shot and prepare to have awarness of this

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> (other thread) "It's fine because you can run into a tower" (cool thanks! we have reached the ultimate game balance, just stay near towers)

>

> I destroy bandwagon metabattle copybuild sniper noobs all day. That's not the point. These guys are nowhere near capable of using the build's full potential. Balancing should not be based on bronze players.

 

so I dont see harere to problem...if balance will be based on bronze players then DJ wont have that long time to prepare to be even able deal decent damage and wont have that many tells its incoming because bronze players have problem to kill anyone with this with that much tells this hit incoming

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Maugetarr.6823" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > @"eldrjth.7384" said:

> > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > >

> > > > Conversely, both sides can be correct.

> > > > Everyone who denounced the sniper concept before the DE was even released knew that this would happen. You can't balance a sniper OHKO thief. It's a complete failure of design, not numbers.

> > > >

> > > > With obvious counterplay to negate the damage, it's weak. Without such tells, it's absolutely broken. If you cut the OHKO potential out but keep the playstyle, it has no value anywhere and can't deliver the numbers the concept needs.

> > >

> > > If they got rid of the one hit kill and raised the overall dps on the weapon set then there wouldnt be a problem. Who says an ohk power **had** to be part of the kit in the first place? (its ohk but think about the long ramp up time to achieve this move) and who says that in order to balance a class for PvP you have to hamstring it in PvE? Maybe its Anet who should have thought about balance more carefully when they designed DE. The rifle set as a whole feels clunky to use, kneeling should be a profession skill roll shouldnt share the same skill slot as DJ, and Dead eyes mark shouldnt take forever to cast and be uninterruptible by a players own action. Totally bad execution. Its not like they couldnt fix the issues right now, or that a sniper class is inherently a bad design, even if they wanted DJ to hit hard. Could just make it a 3 hit kill skill that cost less initiative so players can react to their HP going down.

> >

> > DPS rarely correlates to PvP success, especially in this game-state. Aside from builds with a lot of long-duration sustain tools, burst is pretty much always how things operate in terms of actually killing a player in PvP in action-based games. Find the gap (or make one), and punish as hard and fast as possible in that time while not exposing yourself to counter-attack.

> >

> > If they gave rifle a multi-hit burst attack, then there's really no distinction really between it and P/P Daredevil. Except P/P DrD has more mobility, better sustained boons, probably better sustained pressure, and overall superior damage with similar or superior stealth uptime. So unless DJ's damage was better than Unload (which already hits for absolutely stupid damage), the build is then forced into being a gimmick that just camps the backline and fires haphazardly, skill-lessly, while generating downs/kills. There's a reason Bearbow rangers are/were made fun of in the olden days. The same for ZvZ hammer power rev. It's a stupid build which carried terrible players into being... slightly less terrible via frustration because of one or two overtuned abilities. The DE would end up in the exact same boat and that's a slap in the face to everything the thief as a profession is designed regarding.

> >

> > If the rifle DE is designed to fill that "sniper" fantasy, it's going to be all about burst and stealth. And there's really just no real fair or fun/interactive way to make that concept work as a whole without just changing how it plays and the entire concept of the spec. The warnings and tells are there as they are because those are the necessities to be able to out-play a massive nuke from a ranged, mobile combatant who you don't know where is located. Unlike most other stealth nukes, you're limited in your own capability to react, almost solely determined by build. D/P SA/Bound thief is just as guilty and is why I advocated for the removal of such unhealthy styles for so long. The clunkiness is a consequence for allowing the kit to exist because otherwise it simply **will** be overpowered by design based on the core thief's kit.

> >

> > If they were going to buff DJ's consistency and speed of application, they would have to increase the initiative cost to prevent spam and probably nerf the overall amount of stealth accessible. The DE can't be a super-competitive pick without being downright oppressive or unfun to play against. And there is zero merit to trying to defend something that isn't fun to play against in a PvP context. Absolutely none.

> >

> > The sniper concept just isn't compatible with the rest of GW2.

> >

> >

> >

>

> More and more I wish it had been a running hip-fire mode and a walking aim-down-sight mode instead of normal and kneeling mode. The running mode would be all about sustained damage and more of a short-ranged brawler whereas the aim-down-sight mode would be more focused on hard and soft CC with slightly less damage than the running mode as a tradeoff. That way you could support your team off while standing off point and control the opponent's bunkers, or you could run into a 1v1 with it.

>

> I'm going to agree with you because there's not really a middle ground on how rifle operates due to the mechanics surrounding the damage it delivers. It's either going to be OP or UP depending on the opponent's specific build, and I don't think they can balance it with number adjustments at this point.

 

I just wish the profession developers could have seen it coming or looked into the reasoning section of my proposal. Of all things, I'm upset they took the name. There's always a degree of unknown when people make claims about "they don't know what they're doing," but the pure existence of the DE as it is and the pursuit of that concept is quite d-kitten-ing.

[Turk.5460]

I'll just continue to stomp 95% of my opponents in WvW without even using Death's Judgement...or kneeling for that matter.

Not sure what's the big draw to that skill, the weapon plays well enough in 1v1's and small scale without having to kneel.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Cynz.9437" said:

> > @"Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046" said:

> > After seeing threads like this I always wonder: "How would a necromancer reflect stuff?"

>

> You can block it.

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrosive_Poison_Cloud

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death%27s_Charge

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Minion <<

 

Of those 3 CPC is the only remotely valid thing you listed, and even then CPC is both extremely niche (and thus rarely taken) and has a lot longer cd than all the 0 cd thief skills.

 

Death's Charge is only available to Reaper, and in case you didn't notice, Reaper doesn't exist anymore.

Minion builds likewise do not exist because minion builds are even more trash than Reaper. Any thief, including a full rifle thief, that loses to a minion necro should uninstall the game for their own incompetence.

 

Rifle thief can 1v1 any necro build of either elite spec just by kiting at 1200 range and alternating 2 round burst and autoattack.

 

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"MUDse.7623" said:

> > > @"Lithril Ashwalker.6230" said:

> > > new suggestion: Deadeye is forced to use First Person View and combat camera but in return can go up to 2000 range and gain faster initiative while kneeled

> >

> > no. if you want to change it into a sniper like in FPS games, then also with no indicator and allways oneshot on headshot. oh and no slow projectile or even dogging a bullet.

> >

> > if the class can make people create threads hat its OP and at the same time threads that it is garbage, then either side or both are wrong.

>

> Conversely, both sides can be correct.

> Everyone who denounced the sniper concept before the DE was even released knew that this would happen. You can't balance a sniper OHKO thief. It's a complete failure of design, not numbers.

>

> With obvious counterplay to negate the damage, it's weak. Without such tells, it's absolutely broken. If you cut the OHKO potential out but keep the playstyle, it has no value anywhere and can't deliver the numbers the concept needs.

>

> So at best assuming tradeoffs are made and it's just not completely busted, it becomes "good" against people who don't understand it or simply in environments with too much going on to notice the tells/lag in WvW. Which is exactly what the DE is and always will be unless totally redesigned from the ground up to be something entirely different. It will never be a competitive spec and will never be good unless ANet makes it both numerically and conceptually overpowered. Which I hope they don't. Because fighting against something like that is anti-fun.

>

> But let's face it: That's not gonna happen. People without any semblance of understanding of the balance identity of thief demanded a sniper almost daily, and not enough people spoke against it, and ANet delivered because like the people suggesting the concept, they went by "rule of cool" versus gameplay integrity.

 

Just putting a note up here... the tells and weaknesses that Deadeye has can be dampened or completely negated with clever use of the Thief's utilities or positioning. It's like people forget that thief has utilities that were designed for fighting other players. Also... players reaction times vary from person to person, and even more to circumstance. How good Deadeye really is in PvP just depends on the player. PvE wise, he's great against small shit that can be bursted down quickly. Raid wise... he's really only helpful on Wing 5 and Escort.

[Cynz.9437]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Cynz.9437" said:

> > > @"Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046" said:

> > > After seeing threads like this I always wonder: "How would a necromancer reflect stuff?"

> >

> > You can block it.

> >

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrosive_Poison_Cloud

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death%27s_Charge

> > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Minion <<

>

> Of those 3 CPC is the only remotely valid thing you listed, and even then CPC is both extremely niche (and thus rarely taken) and has a lot longer cd than all the 0 cd thief skills.

>

> Death's Charge is only available to Reaper, and in case you didn't notice, Reaper doesn't exist anymore.

> Minion builds likewise do not exist because minion builds are even more trash than Reaper. Any thief, including a full rifle thief, that loses to a minion necro should uninstall the game for their own incompetence.

>

> Rifle thief can 1v1 any necro build of either elite spec just by kiting at 1200 range and alternating 2 round burst and autoattack.

>

 

Argument that something is niche is rather moot. The reason is that in overall picture other tools may be better to pick. Which is ok. But the moment you decide to pick other tools you also decide that DE after all is not as much a threat as people make it to be.

For example, for me atm scourge/mirage in matches are bigger threat than say DH so i pick condi cleanse utilities that do not help me much vs DH but help me vs mirage/scourge. Tool are there, it is your choice not to use them.

 

Reaper exists, i have seen them in matches, i even saw GS reaper. Once again, your choice not to use them.

 

Minions can be used to block projectiles, whether you use them or not is once again, your choice. We are also talking about DE with rifle here, not about s/d or d/p.

 

The person i answered to claimed that necro basically has no way to deal with projectiles, which is wrong. They just chose not to pick tools to deal with projectiles.

 

Whether rifle thief can kill necro is also up to the said necro. I don't think it is much issue in pvp (which has plenty of LoS and where necro usually gets plenty of team support). Also, god forbid necros get countered by anything. I can't melee scourges atm for most part and necros find it fine apparently. Thief resorts to range sets like every single necro tells them in every thread (see wvw) -> necros complain about ranged thieves. What a joke, honestly.

 

P.S. i do not play DE, i find the spec useless as it gets so i find it silly to even bother complaining about it, especially when it comes from abomination like scourge that is single-handedly ruining wvw and pvp atm.

 

[Carighan.6758]

> @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> It's like you ignore the part where it's WvW and there are dozens of enemies, you can't possibly keep track of every ability that every player is using. Which is fine until you add a one-shot kill ability.

 

You waited 10-15 seconds to be one-shot.

 

**Which DPS spec has not killed you in that time yet?** Because that's the total time needed to get to the point where it deals that much damage.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> > It's like you ignore the part where it's WvW and there are dozens of enemies, you can't possibly keep track of every ability that every player is using. Which is fine until you add a one-shot kill ability.

>

> You waited 10-15 seconds to be one-shot.

>

> **Which DPS spec has not killed you in that time yet?** Because that's the total time needed to get to the point where it deals that much damage.

 

yes alot of people dont understand that point.

most people i gank on deadeye, i would kill faster with daredevil and that without warning. so i feel like its super kind of me to warn my opponents, so they got time to prepare for me. but i get alot more salty whispers on DE then i get on DD. whispers on DE are mostly what a noob and bad player i am and on DD are mostly what a miserable person i am. so most of my opponents think DD takes alot more skill to kill people i guess and i have actually been whispered to go play DD and not that 'easymode' DE.against noobs DE is really alot easier to handle than DD, but against better players DD is easier and you have to get really creative with your DE to land your damage or they will evade /block /reflect. trying to land a DJ on a target that has the reaction to avoid it, is what makes DE fun to me.

for instance after a long fight going back and forth and alot of out of combat cause i refused to fight inside the camp against the holo and him being able to avoid DJ while getting away with stealth / elixir s into the camp to reset fight quite often, he tried to simply kill me with reflect, i could have switched to basi venom right there but i didnt know if it was just baiting me to do that as he was running googles so then i wouldnt be able to remove the reveal. so i did this:

https://youtu.be/x9qDG6oakuI

that is what makes DE fun to me having to get creative, but the fight would have been alot faster (total fight duration was 5 minutes!) and the holo not so salty if i was playing daredevil i guess.

[Elementalist Owner.7802]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> > It's like you ignore the part where it's WvW and there are dozens of enemies, you can't possibly keep track of every ability that every player is using. Which is fine until you add a one-shot kill ability.

>

> You waited 10-15 seconds to be one-shot.

>

> **Which DPS spec has not killed you in that time yet?** Because that's the total time needed to get to the point where it deals that much damage.

 

What do you expect someone to do in those 10-15 seconds? You know the thief is stealthed and can one-shot you at any random point in time. You cannot predict when *exactly* the shot will be taken. So now you have to stop whatever you're doing and be **100% focused** on not getting one-shotted. Yes, you can outplay it, but you have to essentially stop playing the rest of the game to focus on it. When there are so many abilities and mechanics in the game (especially in WvW) it is NONSENSE to make your players focus on ONE attack or get instantly killed.

With other DPS specs in those 10-15 seconds you can react to taking damage, and god forbid you don't react to one single attack, you still have the ability to recover.

 

For some reason there seems to be this idea that I'm suggesting you can't avoid getting one-shotted. Obviously you can avoid it easily, but that's irrelevant to the point I'm making.

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> > @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > > @"Elementalist Owner.7802" said:

> > > It's like you ignore the part where it's WvW and there are dozens of enemies, you can't possibly keep track of every ability that every player is using. Which is fine until you add a one-shot kill ability.

> >

> > You waited 10-15 seconds to be one-shot.

> >

> > **Which DPS spec has not killed you in that time yet?** Because that's the total time needed to get to the point where it deals that much damage.

>

> What do you expect someone to do in those 10-15 seconds? You know the thief is stealthed and can one-shot you at any random point in time. You cannot predict when *exactly* the shot will be taken. So now you have to stop whatever you're doing and be **100% focused** on not getting one-shotted. Yes, you can outplay it, but you have to essentially stop playing the rest of the game to focus on it. When there are so many abilities and mechanics in the game (especially in WvW) it is NONSENSE to make your players focus on ONE attack or get instantly killed.

> With other DPS specs in those 10-15 seconds you can react to taking damage, and god forbid you don't react to one single attack, you still have the ability to recover.

>

> For some reason there seems to be this idea that I'm suggesting you can't avoid getting one-shotted. Obviously you can avoid it easily, but that's irrelevant to the point I'm making.

 

most people realize that mark, while i got alot of kills with my daredevil withot people reacting. so that is one plus you get the chance to focus on that incoming damge so its not 'out of nowhere downstate while chatting' .

yes you dont want to be lethaly punished for making a mistake. but you are granted the chance to avoid most of your opponents preassure with just every 3rd dogge. i do think in most situations constant preassure is stronger.

as deadeye cannot hit reliably his target inside a group of targets, it is currently in most situations just an annoyance in WvW. but alot of fun to me and still able to kill anyone, tho for some it takes quite a while- but time is plenty in WvW :D

 

but lets start this again, asked this before:

how do you picture a balanced sniper? not one that is freekill or you can ignore but really a balanced one?

(not like there is a 1on1 balance )

 

 

[Miroe.2054]

As a Mirage I do not find them OP. I had some of the most interesting and short fights agains deadeyes. This class really punishes you for making mistakes. They can be really frustrating in 2v1 scenario's though.

[Maugetarr.6823]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"Maugetarr.6823" said:

> > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > > @"eldrjth.7384" said:

> > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > > >

> > > > > Conversely, both sides can be correct.

> > > > > Everyone who denounced the sniper concept before the DE was even released knew that this would happen. You can't balance a sniper OHKO thief. It's a complete failure of design, not numbers.

> > > > >

> > > > > With obvious counterplay to negate the damage, it's weak. Without such tells, it's absolutely broken. If you cut the OHKO potential out but keep the playstyle, it has no value anywhere and can't deliver the numbers the concept needs.

> > > >

> > > > If they got rid of the one hit kill and raised the overall dps on the weapon set then there wouldnt be a problem. Who says an ohk power **had** to be part of the kit in the first place? (its ohk but think about the long ramp up time to achieve this move) and who says that in order to balance a class for PvP you have to hamstring it in PvE? Maybe its Anet who should have thought about balance more carefully when they designed DE. The rifle set as a whole feels clunky to use, kneeling should be a profession skill roll shouldnt share the same skill slot as DJ, and Dead eyes mark shouldnt take forever to cast and be uninterruptible by a players own action. Totally bad execution. Its not like they couldnt fix the issues right now, or that a sniper class is inherently a bad design, even if they wanted DJ to hit hard. Could just make it a 3 hit kill skill that cost less initiative so players can react to their HP going down.

> > >

> > > DPS rarely correlates to PvP success, especially in this game-state. Aside from builds with a lot of long-duration sustain tools, burst is pretty much always how things operate in terms of actually killing a player in PvP in action-based games. Find the gap (or make one), and punish as hard and fast as possible in that time while not exposing yourself to counter-attack.

> > >

> > > If they gave rifle a multi-hit burst attack, then there's really no distinction really between it and P/P Daredevil. Except P/P DrD has more mobility, better sustained boons, probably better sustained pressure, and overall superior damage with similar or superior stealth uptime. So unless DJ's damage was better than Unload (which already hits for absolutely stupid damage), the build is then forced into being a gimmick that just camps the backline and fires haphazardly, skill-lessly, while generating downs/kills. There's a reason Bearbow rangers are/were made fun of in the olden days. The same for ZvZ hammer power rev. It's a stupid build which carried terrible players into being... slightly less terrible via frustration because of one or two overtuned abilities. The DE would end up in the exact same boat and that's a slap in the face to everything the thief as a profession is designed regarding.

> > >

> > > If the rifle DE is designed to fill that "sniper" fantasy, it's going to be all about burst and stealth. And there's really just no real fair or fun/interactive way to make that concept work as a whole without just changing how it plays and the entire concept of the spec. The warnings and tells are there as they are because those are the necessities to be able to out-play a massive nuke from a ranged, mobile combatant who you don't know where is located. Unlike most other stealth nukes, you're limited in your own capability to react, almost solely determined by build. D/P SA/Bound thief is just as guilty and is why I advocated for the removal of such unhealthy styles for so long. The clunkiness is a consequence for allowing the kit to exist because otherwise it simply **will** be overpowered by design based on the core thief's kit.

> > >

> > > If they were going to buff DJ's consistency and speed of application, they would have to increase the initiative cost to prevent spam and probably nerf the overall amount of stealth accessible. The DE can't be a super-competitive pick without being downright oppressive or unfun to play against. And there is zero merit to trying to defend something that isn't fun to play against in a PvP context. Absolutely none.

> > >

> > > The sniper concept just isn't compatible with the rest of GW2.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > More and more I wish it had been a running hip-fire mode and a walking aim-down-sight mode instead of normal and kneeling mode. The running mode would be all about sustained damage and more of a short-ranged brawler whereas the aim-down-sight mode would be more focused on hard and soft CC with slightly less damage than the running mode as a tradeoff. That way you could support your team off while standing off point and control the opponent's bunkers, or you could run into a 1v1 with it.

> >

> > I'm going to agree with you because there's not really a middle ground on how rifle operates due to the mechanics surrounding the damage it delivers. It's either going to be OP or UP depending on the opponent's specific build, and I don't think they can balance it with number adjustments at this point.

>

> I just wish the profession developers could have seen it coming or looked into the reasoning section of my proposal. Of all things, I'm upset they took the name. There's always a degree of unknown when people make claims about "they don't know what they're doing," but the pure existence of the DE as it is and the pursuit of that concept is quite d-kitten-ing.

 

Well, the short video interview they had with Wooden Potatoes they addressed their attempts to balance the burst with using the malice mechanic (

@~6min). I think the real problem is they did try to make a FPS sniper and basically tried to use the lens flare tells you'd see in battlefield for counterplay. It wasn't a terrible idea, but I don't think it worked out the way they thought it would. So that's why I have suggested a rework based on different aspects of FPS games, basically using hip fire and aim down sight mechanics instead, with skills modeled after PDWs and DMRs instead of sniper rifles. In games like BF4, both of those have strong damage in their respective ranges, but neither one is a one-shot type of weapon. It could have added more flexibility to the weapon to theme it that way I think, and they could have kept the malice mechanic to build it out as more of a brawler class, getting more powerful as the fight drags on with increased boon duration and control effects instead of just more damage. Anyway, I really hope they're doing a rework, because to balance it around where it is currently, I think they're going to have to nerf the numbers into the ground in PvP/WvW so the skills end up harmless except for the glassiest of builds. I like the rifle theme, I just want to see it implemented differently than how they decided to go this time.

[arenta.2953]

i wish they'd make it so that, instead of you "losing movement imparign conditions upon ending of kneel" instead your immune to knockback and movement imparing.

 

because you never benefit from the movement imparing conditions as usually your stunned or knocked back instead of manually ending kneel.

 

[Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046]

> @"Cynz.9437" said:

 

> The person i answered to claimed that necro basically has no way to deal with projectiles, which is wrong. They just chose not to pick tools to deal with projectiles.

>

> Whether rifle thief can kill necro is also up to the said necro. I don't think it is much issue in pvp (which has plenty of LoS and where necro usually gets plenty of team support). Also, god forbid necros get countered by anything. I can't melee scourges atm for most part and necros find it fine apparently. Thief resorts to range sets like every single necro tells them in every thread (see wvw) -> necros complain about ranged thieves. What a joke, honestly.

>

> P.S. i do not play DE, i find the spec useless as it gets so i find it silly to even bother complaining about it, especially when it comes from abomination like scourge that is single-handedly ruining wvw and pvp atm.

>

 

I play Necromancer solely since guildwars1.

Interaction with objects with in DS basically came from the feverish campaigns I started and that cost many Necromancers, including me, access to this forum.

I think I can safely say that the skills you mentioned to counter flying objects are not used in most builds.

If you use these skills you are compromising an already underperforming profession/class to gain a single counter vs numerous builds/profs that have a heavy damage ranged AA, AND a very decent close combat secondary if not elite.

I'm leaving out mobility for the heck of it. .

 

For you to say , you have tools.. fix it! and then point to scourge.. Is way to easy..

 

PS: Scourge is indeed an abomination that cost necromancer dearly in diversity in every way possible especially versus ranged.

[Cynz.9437]

> @"Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046" said:

> > @"Cynz.9437" said:

>

> > The person i answered to claimed that necro basically has no way to deal with projectiles, which is wrong. They just chose not to pick tools to deal with projectiles.

> >

> > Whether rifle thief can kill necro is also up to the said necro. I don't think it is much issue in pvp (which has plenty of LoS and where necro usually gets plenty of team support). Also, god forbid necros get countered by anything. I can't melee scourges atm for most part and necros find it fine apparently. Thief resorts to range sets like every single necro tells them in every thread (see wvw) -> necros complain about ranged thieves. What a joke, honestly.

> >

> > P.S. i do not play DE, i find the spec useless as it gets so i find it silly to even bother complaining about it, especially when it comes from abomination like scourge that is single-handedly ruining wvw and pvp atm.

> >

>

> I play Necromancer solely since guildwars1.

> Interaction with objects with in DS basically came from the feverish campaigns I started and that cost many Necromancers, including me, access to this forum.

> I think I can safely say that the skills you mentioned to counter flying objects are not used in most builds.

> If you use these skills you are compromising an already underperforming profession/class to gain a single counter vs numerous builds/profs that have a heavy damage ranged AA, AND a very decent close combat secondary if not elite.

> I'm leaving out mobility for the heck of it. .

>

> For you to say , you have tools.. fix it! and then point to scourge.. Is way to easy..

>

> PS: Scourge is indeed an abomination that cost necromancer dearly in diversity in every way possible especially versus ranged.

 

But you are missing the point. If you do not pick tools that would help you vs DE then you don't see them as much as threat as other classes are. Entire complaint about DE is based on necros unwillingness to pick tools vs ranged class. YOU (necros) tell US (all melee players) to l2p and pick ranged vs scourge as counter, when we do, YOU complain about ranged.

[Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046]

In the thread ppl mention reflects as the counter.

I stated necromancer doesn't have such counters.

You bring up 3 skills that block projectiles in the entire arsenal of necromancer in relation to DE.

I would take two of those tools if they would serve me in a team fight vs DE/ranged , they simply don't.

A team fight is great until a big mark shows up and either you run, hide, die or both.

Usually both because.. well.. Necromancer.

 

A /kill is no good in any PvP game and that is exactly what DE is.

 

Now please excuse me while I take more damage then my entire health pool ;)

[Cynz.9437]

> @"Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046" said:

> In the thread ppl mention reflects as the counter.

> I stated necromancer doesn't have such counters.

> You bring up 3 skills that block projectiles in the entire arsenal of necromancer in relation to DE.

> I would take two of those tools if they would serve me in a team fight vs DE/ranged , they simply don't.

> A team fight is great until a big mark shows up and either you run, hide, die or both.

> Usually both because.. well.. Necromancer.

>

> A /kill is no good in any PvP game and that is exactly what DE is.

>

> Now please excuse me while I take more damage then my entire health pool ;)

 

Once again, you don't pick those tools because you don't see DE as much as threat as other classes, simple as it is. By the looks of it you want to have counters to everything while nobody can counter you, am understanding it right?

 

Now please excuse me while i constantly gaining full bar of condis from instant low CD aoes covering entire conquest points.

[Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046]

No you are understanding it wrong.

I didn't say that I saw DE as such a threat, its something we can't counter by play using ANY of our skills.

So we just hope and pray and learn to die with it.

I would however like to see necromancer have some sort of realistic counter to ranged /kill in our utility we could use in builds we "like to" play.

That offer exactly the kind of counter that other professions have on weapon skills.

Is that really too much?

 

You are excused as I am laying dead in the exact same low CD pools of garbage reliving the glory days of Power reaper.

[Cynz.9437]

> @"Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046" said:

> No you are understanding it wrong.

> I didn't say that I saw DE as such a threat, its something we can't counter by play using ANY of our skills.

> So we just hope and pray and learn to die with it.

> I would however like to see necromancer have some sort of realistic counter to ranged /kill in our utility we could use in builds we "like to" play.

> That offer exactly the kind of counter that other professions have on weapon skills.

> Is that really too much?

>

> You are excused as I am laying dead in the exact same low CD pools of garbage reliving the glory days of Power reaper.

 

And i want realistic counter in builds i like to play to many things (like scourges, druids, sb, mirages etc.) but i don't get to have it. And those builds that have counters get nerfed over and over and over again because thief is not allowed to be anything but +1 decap pet.

Is it too much to ask for? Judging by Anet's balancing choices, yes it is. Same applies to necros.

 

Let's lie together in pool of instant low CD aoes like Bella and Edward.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

As a main of power reaper and thief there's no point in arguing between which has it worse when both are shafted by the actually-dominant professions.