Wintersday Balance Update: Feedback Thread

[Ghos.1326]

> @"Aylaine.1036" said:

 

> Axe was buffed because it was heavily nerfed with the bugfix in a previous patch. It's pretty balanced now, but it was pretty lackluster before the Wintersday patch and super broken in the patch before. Also axe doesn't have burst so it makes sense that it wouldn't be included. To add to all of this, axe is rarely used in PvP from what I see. Everyone goes sword for survivability + daze + mobility. The axe buffs were 100% targeted at PvE based on what ANet said when axe ambush was nerfed, that they would monitor changes and make adjustments. That's why it's pretty idiotic to see everyone saying Mirage got some massive PvP buff when it did not. Mentioning mantras is something all mesmers have access to, so that's out too.

>

>

 

I don't see how it's idiotic to say they got buffed, when they did. If applying 13+ stacks of confusion instantly, and them lasting for 10 years to where you can never attack through the entirety of the fight is not a buff, then one could say that they love being op. Lets not forget that, confusion not only ticks damage over time, but also hurts you for using a skill. This is not balanced at all. It opens no counterplay for other players.

Now, if we had something like the confusion being applied, but it only lasted 3-4 seconds, then I personally welcome this change, since according to ANet, confusion is supposed to be a burst style condition. It doesn't make it bursty when it lasts forever, or at least until your next condi clear (for some professions it's anywhere above 30 seconds) is up. Yeah by that time you're dead. That's not balance. That is an honest foresight on the dev's part. Mistakes happen, we're human, but they gotta address and fix this.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Ghos.1326" said:

> I don't see how it's idiotic to say they got buffed, when they did. If applying 13+ stacks of confusion instantly, and them lasting for 10 years to where you can never attack through the entirety of the fight is not a buff, then one could say that they love being op. Lets not forget that, confusion not only ticks damage over time, but also hurts you for using a skill. This is not balanced at all. It opens no counterplay for other players.

> Now, if we had something like the confusion being applied, but it only lasted 3-4 seconds, then I personally welcome this change, since according to ANet, confusion is supposed to be a burst style condition. It doesn't make it bursty when it lasts forever, or at least until your next condi clear (for some professions it's anywhere above 30 seconds) is up. Yeah by that time you're dead. That's not balance. That is an honest foresight on the dev's part. Mistakes happen, we're human, but they gotta address and fix this.

 

Condition removal means NOTHING when facing Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage. They have too much constant application that you will NEVER have enough removals to counter the huge burst of Torment and Confusion you will get, on top of the constant application you also get. The problem is also that Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage have all of that and they have no natural counter. You cant lock them down, you cant burst them down with all the stealth, blocks, mobility, target drops and everything else with their boons and everything they are by FAR the most broken of the Condi builds. It might take me minutes to beat a Condi Scourge, the problem is you simply cant beat a Condi Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage. There isnt enough condition removal/immunities for anyone to really be a viable threat to the bunker Condi Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage

 

 

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > > @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > > > > * Rev Tablet is gated by energy and it doesn't have enough cleanse.

> > > >

> > > > The energy gate is not as significant as a 40s cooldown.

> > > >

> > > > >* Fireband healing is superior to Tempest and Revenant in every single way, especially if we take amount of cleanse Firebrand has.

> > > >

> > > > And it's exactly the opposite in pve, where firebrand is by far the worst of the actual healer builds. Cleansing is also irrelevant for most of the content.

> > > >

> > > > Until anet realises the need for splitting, it's one mode over the other. So, instead of asking for nerfs to one the worse support specs in pve, how about making Ventari and

> > > > Tempest more viable for pvp?

> > > >

> > >

> > > FB is not meant to be played as support in PvE. Healing output does not determine if you play a support role or not. You have to provide offensive buffs. That is why only chrono and rev are used for this role.

> >

> > Says who? Also, firebrand doesn't just heal, it has quickness, too. So, how is a class designed around that party quickness access not meant to be support? How is rev more of a support, besides the numbers being better balanced for rev's healing?

> >

> > > And you are right, FB healing is not the best, but it is spikes when using ToR, which is what makes it ideal for sPvP. No class can do massive quick heals the way FB does.

> >

> > Drui's CA has more healing. They are just gated by their resource, which they have a harder time building in pvp.

> >

> > > It does not need a split. The heal scaling of most ToR skills needs to be nerfed.

> >

> > Why would the scalings in pve need to be nerfed?

>

> One word: alacrity. For Druid it used to be grace of the land. FB does not offer something unique for a raid group.

>

> Good design or not, that is a different question. Reality is support classes in pve are played for their offensive buffs. Quickness is not a rare commodity.

 

Alacrity is exactly as rare as quickness; only chrono and Rev have alacrity and only chrono and FB have quickness.

 

So, again, you cannot say Rev is supposed to be a support while FB is not.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > Now to all those complaining, let me ask you this.

> > **What would you estimate the ratio of mesmers you encouter is, compared to spellbreakers or daredevils?**

> > I’m willing to bet it’s pretty low, cuz I play on T1 and Mesmer is not quite like a unicorn but definitely rare enough. Now have you stopped for a moment to ask yourselves why?

>

> I roam, and i see Mesmers/Chrono/Mirage more than any other class. Bar none. Out of all of them i have encountered, like 2 of them weren't bunker condi. They are everywhere when roaming. I am on T1 EU, what about you? Yesturday alone i encountered like 6 or 7 different Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage and ALL of them were bunker condi based. Your ONLY option to "fight" them is to run. At least Scourge has a counter (range) and STILL can be killed in Melee but you have to be careful. Mesmer you just cant do anything.

 

T1 SoS, I see 1 Mezz for every 4 Spellbreakers, ~3 Rangers and ~3 Thieves.

 

Also if you have standard enemy models on (it’s on by default now), how do you know it’s a different mezz and not the same one killing you over and over?

 

P.S. 6-7 Mesmers in how big of a time pool?

Cuz 6-7 Mesmers in 3-4 hours sounds about right. How many Spellbreakers/Rangers did you see in the same amount of time?

 

P.S.2 Mesmer is already one of the more underplayed professions in the game and you are unlikely to see them anywhere other than roaming because the mechanics suck at zerging and roaming and small scale is the only place where they shine.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > I don't see how it's idiotic to say they got buffed, when they did. If applying 13+ stacks of confusion instantly, and them lasting for 10 years to where you can never attack through the entirety of the fight is not a buff, then one could say that they love being op. Lets not forget that, confusion not only ticks damage over time, but also hurts you for using a skill. This is not balanced at all. It opens no counterplay for other players.

> > Now, if we had something like the confusion being applied, but it only lasted 3-4 seconds, then I personally welcome this change, since according to ANet, confusion is supposed to be a burst style condition. It doesn't make it bursty when it lasts forever, or at least until your next condi clear (for some professions it's anywhere above 30 seconds) is up. Yeah by that time you're dead. That's not balance. That is an honest foresight on the dev's part. Mistakes happen, we're human, but they gotta address and fix this.

>

> Condition removal means NOTHING when facing Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage. They have too much constant application that you will NEVER have enough removals to counter the huge burst of Torment and Confusion you will get, on top of the constant application you also get. The problem is also that Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage have all of that and they have no natural counter. You cant lock them down, you cant burst them down with all the stealth, blocks, mobility, target drops and everything else with their boons and everything they are by FAR the most broken of the Condi builds. It might take me minutes to beat a Condi Scourge, the problem is you simply cant beat a Condi Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage. There isnt enough condition removal/immunities for anyone to really be a viable threat to the bunker Condi Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage

>

>

 

I can think of a very popular and very mainstream right now, Spellbreaker build that completely negates any and all of that condi pressure. Do you see anyone complaining about it?

Also a couple of sword devil builds that do the same thing.

[Aylaine.1036]

> @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > @"Aylaine.1036" said:

>

> > Axe was buffed because it was heavily nerfed with the bugfix in a previous patch. It's pretty balanced now, but it was pretty lackluster before the Wintersday patch and super broken in the patch before. Also axe doesn't have burst so it makes sense that it wouldn't be included. To add to all of this, axe is rarely used in PvP from what I see. Everyone goes sword for survivability + daze + mobility. The axe buffs were 100% targeted at PvE based on what ANet said when axe ambush was nerfed, that they would monitor changes and make adjustments. That's why it's pretty idiotic to see everyone saying Mirage got some massive PvP buff when it did not. Mentioning mantras is something all mesmers have access to, so that's out too.

> >

> >

>

> I don't see how it's idiotic to say they got buffed, when they did. If applying 13+ stacks of confusion instantly, and them lasting for 10 years to where you can never attack through the entirety of the fight is not a buff, then one could say that they love being op. Lets not forget that, confusion not only ticks damage over time, but also hurts you for using a skill. This is not balanced at all. It opens no counterplay for other players.

> Now, if we had something like the confusion being applied, but it only lasted 3-4 seconds, then I personally welcome this change, since according to ANet, confusion is supposed to be a burst style condition. It doesn't make it bursty when it lasts forever, or at least until your next condi clear (for some professions it's anywhere above 30 seconds) is up. Yeah by that time you're dead. That's not balance. That is an honest foresight on the dev's part. Mistakes happen, we're human, but they gotta address and fix this.

Is that people using axe or sword? How many Mirages have you seen using axe? Granted I know they're out there, but the only adjustments to Mirage in the patch were aimed at the axe for PvE. They can't possibly be considered buffs for PvP when everyone is running sword for the blinding dissipation build which is where most of the problems are coming from. I'm not saying Mirage doesn't need nerfs, because it does. I just think they need to be targeted at PvP not PvE. But several people complaining can't or won't tell the difference there because of how salty they are. If anything needs to be adjusted for PvP, it's confusion and how it works.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> T1 SoS, I see 1 Mezz for every 4 Spellbreakers, ~3 Rangers and ~3 Thieves.

>

> Also if you have standard enemy models on (it’s on by default now), how do you know it’s a different mezz and not the same one killing you over and over?

>

> P.S. 6-7 Mesmers in how big of a time pool?

> Cuz 6-7 Mesmers in 3-4 hours sounds about right. How many Spellbreakers/Rangers did you see in the same amount of time?

>

> P.S.2 Mesmer is already one of the more underplayed professions in the game and you are unlikely to see them anywhere other than roaming because the mechanics suck at zerging and roaming and small scale is the only place where they shine.

 

For the ability to be able to see server name, rank, race and gender. They were the separate ones i encountered and i encountered several of them multiple times. That would be in the same of like an, maybe 2 of roaming and as said encountered several of them multiple times.

 

In WvW, i am betting its not one of the least played at all. I see them in zergs and groups, i see them duo roaming because apparently being a single Condi Mesmer is too hard for some. Maybe its different, guessing SoS is a NA server? Maybe its different over there but over here, will encounter a few warriors. Not many.

 

 

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> I can think of a very popular and very mainstream right now, Spellbreaker build that completely negates any and all of that condi pressure. Do you see anyone complaining about it?

> Also a couple of sword devil builds that do the same thing.

 

Well. Spellbreaker isnt exactly under powered itself. Though i would love to see this build that negates "any and all" of condi preasure. Since the Resistance got a nerf i dont see how they can negate all.

 

Against SOME condi builds Weaver can stand a chance. Is it a 100% win? Not a chance and you still have to work for it. Know when to attack. Know when you need to get the hell away form them and their AoE of death around themselves if they are Scourge. However against Mesmer? Nope.

 

 

[Arlette.9684]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > I can think of a very popular and very mainstream right now, Spellbreaker build that completely negates any and all of that condi pressure. Do you see anyone complaining about it?

> > Also a couple of sword devil builds that do the same thing.

>

> Well. Spellbreaker isnt exactly under powered itself. Though i would love to see this build that negates "any and all" of condi preasure. Since the Resistance got a nerf i dont see how they can negate all.

>

> Against SOME condi builds Weaver can, against Mesmer. Nope.

>

>

 

Do your homework, it’s out there.

Edit: I said any and all of THAT condi pressure, pointing at Mesmer specifically. Mezz don’t have a plethora of cover condis to mask their damage dealers. So an average of 3 condi clears per cycle are usually enough to stip the beefy stacks. As far as the application speed I agree, it’s quite a bit out there.

 

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > T1 SoS, I see 1 Mezz for every 4 Spellbreakers, ~3 Rangers and ~3 Thieves.

> >

> > Also if you have standard enemy models on (it’s on by default now), how do you know it’s a different mezz and not the same one killing you over and over?

> >

> > P.S. 6-7 Mesmers in how big of a time pool?

> > Cuz 6-7 Mesmers in 3-4 hours sounds about right. How many Spellbreakers/Rangers did you see in the same amount of time?

> >

> > P.S.2 Mesmer is already one of the more underplayed professions in the game and you are unlikely to see them anywhere other than roaming because the mechanics suck at zerging and roaming and small scale is the only place where they shine.

>

> For the ability to be able to see server name, rank, race and gender. They were the separate ones i encountered and i encountered several of them multiple times. That would be in the same of like an, maybe 2 of roaming and as said encountered several of them multiple times.

>

> In WvW, i am betting its not one of the least played at all. I see them in zergs and groups, i see them duo roaming because apparently being a single Condi Mesmer is too hard for some. Maybe its different, guessing SoS is a NA server? Maybe its different over there but over here, will encounter a few warriors. Not many.

>

>

 

What you’re describing sounds like population distribution problem and should auto correct itself.

Not sure what the meta on EU is but on NA we’ve been dealing with condi for the past 2-2.5 years and people have generally adapted their builds to be more effective against them.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> Do your homework, it’s out there.

 

Well, seeing as i dont have a Warrior and dont ever plan on having one. Why would i research it? I have no desire to play such a boring class.

 

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> What you’re describing sounds like population distribution problem and should auto correct itself.

> Not sure what the meta on EU is but on NA we’ve been dealing with condi for the past 2-2.5 years and people have generally adapted their builds to be more effective against them.

 

Well, given that its been like that even before PoF, i highly doubt that. Mesmer/Chrono back then was highly used in condi builds. They still are. They just now have a 3rd Condi spec to cheese about with. Condi has been the meta the game has forced for years. No shock. Nothing new. The problem has always been Application > Removal by like 90-10 and until it becomes skill based to win as a condi build nothing will chance. Once its no longer a walk in the park to win as, they will move on to the next easy to win build and class.

 

 

[Arlette.9684]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > Do your homework, it’s out there.

>

> Well, seeing as i dont have a Warrior and dont ever plan on having one. Why would i research it? I have no desire to play such a boring class.

>

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > What you’re describing sounds like population distribution problem and should auto correct itself.

> > Not sure what the meta on EU is but on NA we’ve been dealing with condi for the past 2-2.5 years and people have generally adapted their builds to be more effective against them.

>

> Well, given that its been like that even before PoF, i highly doubt that. Mesmer/Chrono back then was highly used in condi builds. They still are. They just now have a 3rd Condi spec to cheese about with. Condi has been the meta the game has forced for years. No shock. Nothing new. The problem has always been Application > Removal by like 90-10 and until it becomes skill based to win as a condi build nothing will chance. Once its no longer a walk in the park to win as, they will move on to the next easy to win build and class.

>

>

 

That’s the thing, they already have, it’s called Game... uugh sorry Spellbreaker.

[otto.5684]

> @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > > > @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > > > > > * Rev Tablet is gated by energy and it doesn't have enough cleanse.

> > > > >

> > > > > The energy gate is not as significant as a 40s cooldown.

> > > > >

> > > > > >* Fireband healing is superior to Tempest and Revenant in every single way, especially if we take amount of cleanse Firebrand has.

> > > > >

> > > > > And it's exactly the opposite in pve, where firebrand is by far the worst of the actual healer builds. Cleansing is also irrelevant for most of the content.

> > > > >

> > > > > Until anet realises the need for splitting, it's one mode over the other. So, instead of asking for nerfs to one the worse support specs in pve, how about making Ventari and

> > > > > Tempest more viable for pvp?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > FB is not meant to be played as support in PvE. Healing output does not determine if you play a support role or not. You have to provide offensive buffs. That is why only chrono and rev are used for this role.

> > >

> > > Says who? Also, firebrand doesn't just heal, it has quickness, too. So, how is a class designed around that party quickness access not meant to be support? How is rev more of a support, besides the numbers being better balanced for rev's healing?

> > >

> > > > And you are right, FB healing is not the best, but it is spikes when using ToR, which is what makes it ideal for sPvP. No class can do massive quick heals the way FB does.

> > >

> > > Drui's CA has more healing. They are just gated by their resource, which they have a harder time building in pvp.

> > >

> > > > It does not need a split. The heal scaling of most ToR skills needs to be nerfed.

> > >

> > > Why would the scalings in pve need to be nerfed?

> >

> > One word: alacrity. For Druid it used to be grace of the land. FB does not offer something unique for a raid group.

> >

> > Good design or not, that is a different question. Reality is support classes in pve are played for their offensive buffs. Quickness is not a rare commodity.

>

> Alacrity is exactly as rare as quickness; only chrono and Rev have alacrity and only chrono and FB have quickness.

>

> So, again, you cannot say Rev is supposed to be a support while FB is not.

 

Couple of classes do have access to quickness. It surely is rare, but surely not as much alacrity. Only Chrono has access to both, and that is primarily why it is used in the support role.

 

I have heard that some group run support rev for alacrity with FB dps providing quickness, taking Chrono out the equation.

 

I am not aware of people running FB as support in PvE. Clearly 100% quickness and the healing are not enough.

[Turk.5460]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> Now to all those complaining, let me ask you this.

> **What would you estimate the ratio of mesmers you encouter is, compared to spellbreakers or daredevils?**

> I’m willing to bet it’s pretty low, cuz I play on T1 and Mesmer is not quite like a unicorn but definitely rare enough. Now have you stopped for a moment to ask yourselves why?

 

I see far more Chronos and Mirages roaming than I do Spellbreakers. I see more Mesmers than I do any other profession aside from Thief.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > > > > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> > > > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> > > > > > Please Revert it. Much of the sPvP community agrees with me on this.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/320394

> > > > > >

> > > > > Based on 10 people's opinions on forums where all you can see is negativity and whining?

> > > >

> > > > sPvP crowd almost universally views this patch as bad.

> > > No, it's your opinion, projected to everyone else. Just stop.

> >

> > Go visit sPvP forums and rev forums. Heck, majority of feedback in this thread are overwhelmingly negative towards the changes.

> >

> People come to the forum the complain. If they are satisfied they won't really come and praise Anet on the forums, just enjoy the game. Should have learnt that by now, that's why the whole forum is full of negativity and whining, not just the pvp ones btw (it's natural anyway)

 

Maybe it's full of negativity because all the changes the balance team have made recently have been backwards and in contradiction to their stated goals?

 

I mean seriously, name three good things this patch did.

 

 

[DinesenDK.5067]

From a Warrior perspective, I can only say this for now.

 

Resistance feels close to useless against Scourges. You might have reduced the condi burst output, but that just leaves the warrior to die a bit slower. In a 1vs1 the following pretty much happens everytime.: Tons of condis is put on the warrior, as it tries to take the Scourge down. War can then pop resist or Heal/cleanse to counter it. If I heal and cleanse, the same condis are back on me shortly after. If I resist, the resist is corrupted, and the condis are back on me a few seconds later anyways. This time I must use my heal/cleanse, but the result is the same because 10 sec later the same condis are back on me, and this time I am out of defenses and a sitting duck. On top of that, put the fact, that my stability is corrupted as well, and I am slowed, which means, I can now not even keep up with the Scourge, and then the Torment hits because I move too. I honestly think it is over the top, as you simply don't have the power or survival tools to sustain the scourge to his dead in the same few moments it takes the Scourge to delete the warrior.

 

If it is just me who needs to learn, then I would be happy if someone could teach me how to work around the current issue, as I can't find an answer to it.

 

Ideas:

 

Make Resistance and stability none-corruptable.

Reduce timer on heals that cleanses conditions as well - Perhaps even make them instant casts, to bring more than passive healing into play as well?

Change how Torment works.

Change how corruption works.

Increase Warriors Power while affected by a condition by X%

[Arlette.9684]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > Now to all those complaining, let me ask you this.

> > **What would you estimate the ratio of mesmers you encouter is, compared to spellbreakers or daredevils?**

> > I’m willing to bet it’s pretty low, cuz I play on T1 and Mesmer is not quite like a unicorn but definitely rare enough. Now have you stopped for a moment to ask yourselves why?

>

> I see far more Chronos and Mirages roaming than I do Spellbreakers. I see more Mesmers than I do any other profession aside from Thief.

 

What’s your server tier and EU or NA?

[sniperman.1738]

> @"Ghos.1326" said:

>

> > @"sniperman.1738" said:

> > I feel that and I must say this. Anet what you did is saddening, I read the changes to necromancer, mainly them being scourge skills, thats quite the nerf there, miles just tell necros, to take a backseat in condi from now on or damage in general. You guys at Arena really need to take a detailed look at Necromancer, along with its elite specs Reaper and Scourage, and look at how under classed it is, and do something about it to save the profession from humiliation. If you have to revamp the whole class and its elite specs in the next quarterly balance patch, but do something to bring necro back instead of digging its grave deeper and deeper.

>

> Dude Necromancer has been very strong in pvp for a looong time. Just because it's not overbearingly OP to where it can't be countered by anything doesn't mean Necromancer is shunned, or hated or being brought in the wrong direction. If anything, scourge is REALLY buffed with the changes to barrier. It doesn't bleed away anymore, it stays up for a whole 5 seconds before finally disappearing....that's VERY strong. You guys are now super survivable. Reaper does a crap ton of damage, and has nice chill application so you really can't get away. Why buff them more and make them one-shot everything they see or touch?

> Lets for example take a look at renegade and core engineer/scrapper in general. They are shown a lot less love than necromancer, honestly. Relax man, learn the changes, become familiar and skilled with what is new. These changes are good (save a few that was really bad ideas, not on necromancer side).

 

Not everything is about PvP, this game is built around PvE, so please take your PvP bias else where, my complain is geared towards PvE, hence why i wrote it the way I did as necromancer keeps getting crushed on hard in PvE. PvP is a slowly dying off game mode in this game, so PvE is where it matters most right now.

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > > @"otto.5684" said:

> > > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > > > > > @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > > > > > > * Rev Tablet is gated by energy and it doesn't have enough cleanse.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The energy gate is not as significant as a 40s cooldown.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >* Fireband healing is superior to Tempest and Revenant in every single way, especially if we take amount of cleanse Firebrand has.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And it's exactly the opposite in pve, where firebrand is by far the worst of the actual healer builds. Cleansing is also irrelevant for most of the content.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Until anet realises the need for splitting, it's one mode over the other. So, instead of asking for nerfs to one the worse support specs in pve, how about making Ventari and

> > > > > > Tempest more viable for pvp?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > FB is not meant to be played as support in PvE. Healing output does not determine if you play a support role or not. You have to provide offensive buffs. That is why only chrono and rev are used for this role.

> > > >

> > > > Says who? Also, firebrand doesn't just heal, it has quickness, too. So, how is a class designed around that party quickness access not meant to be support? How is rev more of a support, besides the numbers being better balanced for rev's healing?

> > > >

> > > > > And you are right, FB healing is not the best, but it is spikes when using ToR, which is what makes it ideal for sPvP. No class can do massive quick heals the way FB does.

> > > >

> > > > Drui's CA has more healing. They are just gated by their resource, which they have a harder time building in pvp.

> > > >

> > > > > It does not need a split. The heal scaling of most ToR skills needs to be nerfed.

> > > >

> > > > Why would the scalings in pve need to be nerfed?

> > >

> > > One word: alacrity. For Druid it used to be grace of the land. FB does not offer something unique for a raid group.

> > >

> > > Good design or not, that is a different question. Reality is support classes in pve are played for their offensive buffs. Quickness is not a rare commodity.

> >

> > Alacrity is exactly as rare as quickness; only chrono and Rev have alacrity and only chrono and FB have quickness.

> >

> > So, again, you cannot say Rev is supposed to be a support while FB is not.

>

> Couple of classes do have access to quickness. It surely is rare, but surely not as much alacrity. Only Chrono has access to both, and that is primarily why it is used in the support role.

>

> I have heard that some group run support rev for alacrity with FB dps providing quickness, taking Chrono out the equation.

 

A couple of classes have *selfish* quickness, which doesn't matter at all, because it's neither permanent, nor do these skills see any use in meta builds. Quickness, like alacrity, is very much expected to be provided for the group by a support build.

 

There's a difference between saying that a class is not currently used as support, because a competing choice (chrono) exists and that a class was never meant to be support. FB was very much designed to be used as support, the balance is just not there yet.

 

> I am not aware of people running FB as support in PvE. Clearly 100% quickness and the healing are not enough.

 

Because of chrono. Alacrity Renegade is not seeing play for the same reason. But they do see some play as healers, because their numbers are in a good spot. FB is not there yet, and it needs pve buffs.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"sniperman.1738" said:

> > @"Ghos.1326" said:

> >

> > > @"sniperman.1738" said:

> > > I feel that and I must say this. Anet what you did is saddening, I read the changes to necromancer, mainly them being scourge skills, thats quite the nerf there, miles just tell necros, to take a backseat in condi from now on or damage in general. You guys at Arena really need to take a detailed look at Necromancer, along with its elite specs Reaper and Scourage, and look at how under classed it is, and do something about it to save the profession from humiliation. If you have to revamp the whole class and its elite specs in the next quarterly balance patch, but do something to bring necro back instead of digging its grave deeper and deeper.

> >

> > Dude Necromancer has been very strong in pvp for a looong time. Just because it's not overbearingly OP to where it can't be countered by anything doesn't mean Necromancer is shunned, or hated or being brought in the wrong direction. If anything, scourge is REALLY buffed with the changes to barrier. It doesn't bleed away anymore, it stays up for a whole 5 seconds before finally disappearing....that's VERY strong. You guys are now super survivable. Reaper does a crap ton of damage, and has nice chill application so you really can't get away. Why buff them more and make them one-shot everything they see or touch?

> > Lets for example take a look at renegade and core engineer/scrapper in general. They are shown a lot less love than necromancer, honestly. Relax man, learn the changes, become familiar and skilled with what is new. These changes are good (save a few that was really bad ideas, not on necromancer side).

>

> Not everything is about PvP, this game is built around PvE, so please take your PvP bias else where, my complain is geared towards PvE, hence why i wrote it the way I did as necromancer keeps getting crushed on hard in PvE. PvP is a slowly dying off game mode in this game, so PvE is where it matters most right now.

 

This is a very ignorant thing to say. And my opinions will stay where it will be. Since we're on pve though, necro scourge is real good in pve right now as well. I've yet to see a group I was in that did not have at least one scourge. One suggestion: play a build that actually works for the time being, until other traits are buffed and the ones that are good now are either nerfed or untouched. kthnx. You're welcome.

Also, the post I quoted said nothing in there about this being a PvE orientated post. Once again, you're welcome.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"DinesenDK.5067" said:

> From a Warrior perspective, I can only say this for now.

>

> Resistance feels close to useless against Scourges. You might have reduced the condi burst output, but that just leaves the warrior to die a bit slower. In a 1vs1 the following pretty much happens everytime.: Tons of condis is put on the warrior, as it tries to take the Scourge down. War can then pop resist or Heal/cleanse to counter it. If I heal and cleanse, the same condis are back on me shortly after. If I resist, the resist is corrupted, and the condis are back on me a few seconds later anyways. This time I must use my heal/cleanse, but the result is the same because 10 sec later the same condis are back on me, and this time I am out of defenses and a sitting duck. On top of that, put the fact, that my stability is corrupted as well, and I am slowed, which means, I can now not even keep up with the Scourge, and then the Torment hits because I move too. I honestly think it is over the top, as you simply don't have the power or survival tools to sustain the scourge to his dead in the same few moments it takes the Scourge to delete the warrior.

>

> If it is just me who needs to learn, then I would be happy if someone could teach me how to work around the current issue, as I can't find an answer to it.

>

> Ideas:

>

> Make Resistance and stability none-corruptable.

> Reduce timer on heals that cleanses conditions as well - Perhaps even make them instant casts, to bring more than passive healing into play as well?

> Change how Torment works.

> Change how corruption works.

> Increase Warriors Power while affected by a condition by X%

 

Yeah. No. Warriors dont need to be even more broken thanks. So you have a build that can FINALLY counter you and now suddenly condition builds need to be nerfed and Warrior needs to be buffed.

 

I said it for a LONG time on here and in the game, the ONLY time when Condition builds would see a nerf - When Warriors are no longer immune to all condition builds in the game. Guess what changed recently happened? Now suddenly, Warriors have to work to counter conditions. I mean you still have more up time on Resistance as well as good condition removal to be able to fight them, apparently spellbreaker completely counters Condi Mesmer as well....

 

1) No Resistance and Stability should NOT be immune to corrupts

2) So on top of your pasisve healing and your healing traits you want MORE healing!?

3) I agree that Torment and Confusion needs to be changed

4) Other than removing it from Scepter auto attack, Corruption is fine.

5) Yeah. No. You can already go full zerk gear and still have 3k+ Armour and 20k health. You dont need more power.

[Turk.5460]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > Now to all those complaining, let me ask you this.

> > > **What would you estimate the ratio of mesmers you encouter is, compared to spellbreakers or daredevils?**

> > > I’m willing to bet it’s pretty low, cuz I play on T1 and Mesmer is not quite like a unicorn but definitely rare enough. Now have you stopped for a moment to ask yourselves why?

> >

> > I see far more Chronos and Mirages roaming than I do Spellbreakers. I see more Mesmers than I do any other profession aside from Thief.

>

> What’s your server tier and EU or NA?

 

My server is in every post I make...

 

Tier 2/3 NA - I left EU long ago as it was generally not challenging in roaming, EU roamers seem to be walking potatoes...This is also the reason I left T1 on both accounts, the zerging is great, the solo roaming...doesn't really exist in T1 unless its ungodly offpeak hours.

[Arlette.9684]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > Now to all those complaining, let me ask you this.

> > > > **What would you estimate the ratio of mesmers you encouter is, compared to spellbreakers or daredevils?**

> > > > I’m willing to bet it’s pretty low, cuz I play on T1 and Mesmer is not quite like a unicorn but definitely rare enough. Now have you stopped for a moment to ask yourselves why?

> > >

> > > I see far more Chronos and Mirages roaming than I do Spellbreakers. I see more Mesmers than I do any other profession aside from Thief.

> >

> > What’s your server tier and EU or NA?

>

> My server is in every post I make...

>

> Tier 2/3 NA - I left EU long ago as it was generally not challenging in roaming, EU roamers seem to be walking potatoes...This is also the reason I left T1 on both accounts, the zerging is great, the solo roaming...doesn't really exist in T1 unless its ungodly offpeak hours.

 

You’ll have to excuse me, mobile site doesn’t show sigs. T1 roaming does exist mind you, you just have to get used to the idea of never fighting even numbers.

 

As per our discussion, I have no observations on t2-3 and the roaming scene there. But if what you say is true then kudos to the people on those tiers for playing a class like mesmer over standard sword thief hit and run. Like seriously how does one not get bored of 2, dodge, dodge, dodge, 2, rinse and repeat? Throw a trap or poison for personal touch somewhere in there. Or play ranger and spam 2 on cooldown while max ranging at all time.

 

P.S. Thanks for the insight.

[Turk.5460]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > @"Turk.5460" said:

> > > > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > > Now to all those complaining, let me ask you this.

> > > > > **What would you estimate the ratio of mesmers you encouter is, compared to spellbreakers or daredevils?**

> > > > > I’m willing to bet it’s pretty low, cuz I play on T1 and Mesmer is not quite like a unicorn but definitely rare enough. Now have you stopped for a moment to ask yourselves why?

> > > >

> > > > I see far more Chronos and Mirages roaming than I do Spellbreakers. I see more Mesmers than I do any other profession aside from Thief.

> > >

> > > What’s your server tier and EU or NA?

> >

> > My server is in every post I make...

> >

> > Tier 2/3 NA - I left EU long ago as it was generally not challenging in roaming, EU roamers seem to be walking potatoes...This is also the reason I left T1 on both accounts, the zerging is great, the solo roaming...doesn't really exist in T1 unless its ungodly offpeak hours.

>

> You’ll have to excuse me, mobile site doesn’t show sigs. T1 roaming does exist mind you, you just have to get used to the idea of never fighting even numbers.

>

> As per our discussion, I have no observations on t2-3 and the roaming scene there. But if what you say is true then kudos to the people on those tiers for playing a class like mesmer over standard sword thief hit and run. Like seriously how does one not get bored of 2, dodge, dodge, dodge, 2, rinse and repeat? Throw a trap or poison for personal touch somewhere in there. Or play ranger and spam 2 on cooldown while max ranging at all time.

>

> P.S. Thanks for the insight.

 

Standard Thief is still D/P DrD, this is true on all tiers, though. I barely see Sword/X Thieves anymore since it's FOTM band-wagon lost steam a month after the S/D buff. I personally play no-stealth Rifle deadeye and have great success.

[Refia Montes.3205]

>MIRAGE IS OP

>Why did you buff Axe Mirage, it was already cancer enough

>Like Axe was even used in PvP anyways.

>The cancer build is the interrupt Ineptitude Mirage.

>which never used Axe to stack condis, along with using Elusive Mind.

[Refia Montes.3205]

:pensive: the forums as always are full of salt.