Wintersday Balance Update: Feedback Thread

[Mr Godlike.6098]

(PvP ELE) :

 

Why fury change? What was broken or needed to fix?

 

Why nerfing condi on class with irrelevant condi builds?

 

What was overall goal of balance team with changes on ele?

 

What direction should build crafters for ele in pvp should look now after this changes? What are balance team suggestions?

[Ghos.1326]

> @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > @"RabbitUp.8294" said:

> > > @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > > * Firebrand F2 #4 shouldn't be buffed without shaving heals somewhere else, as it becomes even more superior compared to Tempest or Tablet Revenant.

> >

> > Tempest's staff and Rev's tablet are not gated by a 40s cooldown.

>

> I would like to remind you few facts:

> * Tempest doesn't use Staff in sPvP as it's pretty horrible there.

> * Rev Tablet is gated by energy and it doesn't have enough cleanse.

> * CDs on Staff - Geyser has 20s CD and Healing Rain has 40s CD, AA heals for nothing.

> * Fireband healing is superior to Tempest and Revenant in every single way, especially if we take amount of cleanse Firebrand has.

>

> ~Your dear pocket Firebrand.

 

Exactly. Any build that is a hybrid bunker/support should not be doing both so extraordinarily well that every other profession that uses a hybrid bunker/support build becomes obsolete. As well, doing both bunker/support so extraordinarily well means that almost nothing can kill you.

Firebrand did not need a buff, it needed toning down on the heals it can put out. So that wasn't a smart move on the side of the devs this time around. A lot of the other changes are quite nice though.

[Allarius.5670]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> The primary design for confusion is 'burst'; it's expected to deliver a lot of stacks at once for low duration, punishing skill usage for a short while and then falling off quickly. Due to this difference in nature, we chose to leave it alone in this patch.

 

I wanted to thank you for sharing the thought process behind confusion and its gameplay intent. I really appreciate when you and other developers open up and pass along this kind of information. Not only do I personally find it interesting, but I also think it helps the community better understand and appreciate where you stand on the current state of the game, skills, balance, and gameplay mechanics. Additionally, I think it helps narrow down feedback to better speak to the gameplay intent and why players may or may not feel it is successful in achieving its goals.

 

Again, thank you!

[Ghos.1326]

 

> @"sniperman.1738" said:

> I feel that and I must say this. Anet what you did is saddening, I read the changes to necromancer, mainly them being scourge skills, thats quite the nerf there, miles just tell necros, to take a backseat in condi from now on or damage in general. You guys at Arena really need to take a detailed look at Necromancer, along with its elite specs Reaper and Scourage, and look at how under classed it is, and do something about it to save the profession from humiliation. If you have to revamp the whole class and its elite specs in the next quarterly balance patch, but do something to bring necro back instead of digging its grave deeper and deeper.

 

Dude Necromancer has been very strong in pvp for a looong time. Just because it's not overbearingly OP to where it can't be countered by anything doesn't mean Necromancer is shunned, or hated or being brought in the wrong direction. If anything, scourge is REALLY buffed with the changes to barrier. It doesn't bleed away anymore, it stays up for a whole 5 seconds before finally disappearing....that's VERY strong. You guys are now super survivable. Reaper does a crap ton of damage, and has nice chill application so you really can't get away. Why buff them more and make them one-shot everything they see or touch?

Lets for example take a look at renegade and core engineer/scrapper in general. They are shown a lot less love than necromancer, honestly. Relax man, learn the changes, become familiar and skilled with what is new. These changes are good (save a few that was really bad ideas, not on necromancer side).

[Ghos.1326]

> @"Karl McLain.5604" said:

> The primary design for confusion is 'burst'; it's expected to deliver a lot of stacks at once for low duration, punishing skill usage for a short while and then falling off quickly. Due to this difference in nature, we chose to leave it alone in this patch.

 

Hey Karl,

Thanks for making this clear. I am pleased to see the intention of the confusion condition. However, I have been scrolling through and reading some of the comments regarding this, and I have to agree with them (not to the overly negative extent). Confusion was given a buff on a skill, and mesmers in general can keep a pretty high confusion stack on players for long time, so buffing the uptime of the confusion on the mirage was not a good step to take towards balance. I welcome the extra stack with open arms, it does fit your suggested theme for the confusion condition, but increasing its uptime is not a step in the right direction, I feel. The confusion burst should, as you said, be "bursty", but needs to keep low durations. Because being unable to use skills for anything more than 2 seconds is a little much.

With this said, keep in mind some other uses of skills on some professions:

-For escape situations, i.g. Engineer's Rifle 5 skill

-For blast/leap/etc finishers, i.g. Thief 2 skill in fields for stealth or other combo effects

Though one can also argue that, this is the point of confusion, to apply counterplay opportunities against these things, to hamper the opponent for a while, it still should not last so long that nothing can be done for the entirety of the fight.

Hope what I said was helpful!

[Ertrak.9506]

This changes actually feels good. Went into wvw and we were actually able to not have to rely solely on pirate shipping tactics (spell breaker bubble still needs a nerf).

 

Irenio, can you please look into buffing Condi Rev for PvE please? These balance changes were good and need but they had a side effect that knocked Condi rev below where it should be in raids compared to other dps builds (ie Condi mirage)

[Sodeni.6041]

I don't play PvP that much so I can only speak for PvE.

 

I really like that you buffed mirage's damage since it's a spec that has zero support and is a pure dps class! I still wish that you reviewed some traitlines because a lot of them focus around shattering but mirage usually doesn't shatter for max dps. Each choosable trait category (minor, master, grandmaster) should at least have one trait that favours mirage and doesn't involve shatters. Also I'd like to have a f5 (not a shatter!) that either lets you consume all mirrors on the battleground so you gain mirage cloak (cd of maybe 60 seconds) or something else. Just seeing the same shatter skills as a normal mesmer without new f1-f4 or at least an f5 feels so flavourless to me since mirage doesn't even shatter in the first place in PvE.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

> @"Ertrak.9506" said:

> This changes actually feels good. Went into wvw and we were actually able to not have to rely solely on pirate shipping tactics (spell breaker bubble still needs a nerf).

>

> Irenio, can you please look into buffing Condi Rev for PvE please? These balance changes were good and need but they had a side effect that knocked Condi rev below where it should be in raids compared to other dps builds (ie Condi mirage)

 

Condi rev lost 0 damage. It just has higher ramp up time now and even that is relatively miniscule since most of it's major damaging abilities are pulsing fields or low application and therefore weren't touched.

[Morwath.9817]

What I would like to see "hotfixed" :

* Confusion damage reduced in sPvP by ~20%.

* Arcane Prowess gives now 3 stacks of Might for 6 seconds instead of 1 for 8 seconds.

* Mutilate Defenses refreshed whenever Revenant switches Legend rather than uses Elite.

* Barier granted by Scrouge skills reduced, added better scalling with Healing Power to compensate.

* Firebrand F2 #1 healing reduced by 15%, to balance overall healing output increased by buff of F2 #4.

* Merciful Intervention rerolled back to prepatch and it's revive effect moved to Rebound (Tempest Elite skill).

 

 

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Morwath.9817" said:

> What I would like to see "hotfixed" :

> * Arcane Prowess gives now 3 stacks of Might for 6 seconds instead of 1 for 8 seconds.

 

Please no. I actually want more might traits to follow this example, of giving out only 1 stack of might but for longer durations. Due to how powerful 25stacks of might is, to me its something that should be primarily coming from might generation skills, not from traits. Yet right now in PvE the might generation comes almost entirely from traits, because they will pump out both high stacks and relatively high duration of might simultaneously.

[Carona Guaricha.5820]

 

 

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> To re-iterate and hopefully clarify something - this update is NOT an end-all resolution to power and condition builds, it is a step toward the goal of accentuating differences will lead to healthier options in several game modes. This is also a smaller scope update.

 

Just stop thinking you guys could balance more than one game mode at once. To not split the PvE and PvP Builds in a Balance Patch is a very very bad idea. Split these apart and the PvP Balance, on which you are struggling for years to make a fair PvP Balance, will be far more feasible.

[Kirin.7306]

You forgot Mirage. Jeez please do something (not buff ffs)

[Morwath.9817]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > What I would like to see "hotfixed" :

> > * Arcane Prowess gives now 3 stacks of Might for 6 seconds instead of 1 for 8 seconds.

>

> Please no. I actually want more might traits to follow this example, of giving out only 1 stack of might but for longer durations. Due to how powerful 25stacks of might is, to me its something that should be primarily coming from might generation skills, not from traits. Yet right now in PvE the might generation comes almost entirely from traits, because they will pump out both high stacks and relatively high duration of might simultaneously.

 

**Arcane Prowess** was **Arcane Fury** pre 12/12, which was giving **Fury** and current version of **Arcane Prowess** is pure nerf compared to prepatch day.

Elementalist was supposed to be buffed, not nerfed.

[OriOri.8724]

> @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > > What I would like to see "hotfixed" :

> > > * Arcane Prowess gives now 3 stacks of Might for 6 seconds instead of 1 for 8 seconds.

> >

> > Please no. I actually want more might traits to follow this example, of giving out only 1 stack of might but for longer durations. Due to how powerful 25stacks of might is, to me its something that should be primarily coming from might generation skills, not from traits. Yet right now in PvE the might generation comes almost entirely from traits, because they will pump out both high stacks and relatively high duration of might simultaneously.

>

> **Arcane Prowess** was **Arcane Fury** pre 12/12, which was giving **Fury** and current version of **Arcane Prowess** is pure nerf compared to prepatch day.

> Elementalist was supposed to be buffed, not nerfed.

 

I know it was a nerf to eles. I was just saying that I wish more might stacking traits followed this example of only giving out 1 might, maybe 2 for some traits.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Mr Godlike.6098" said:

> (PvP ELE) :

>

> Why fury change? What was broken or needed to fix?

>

 

The answer will most likely be infuriating but also very logic: Anet wanted to get rid of the "vuln on crit" trait and thought that it would be good to add the vuln on top of electric discharge (which was a clever choice). However, this left a minor trait blank in the "crit" traitline and what come to mind when you think of crit? Fury. Then they felt that the boon would be redundant if you could have access to it from both arcane and air magic so they replaced it in arcane with might which they feel like is a good damage increase.

 

> Why nerfing condi on class with irrelevant condi builds?

>

 

The tune down aimed at skills/traits that dished out a lot of in built damaging conditions. This wasn't aimed at any build in particular. Look they even made the change on underwater skills.

 

> What was overall goal of balance team with changes on ele?

>

 

Most likely there were no "goal" appart the fact that they wanted to get rid of the vuln on crit trait and change the high damaging condition stacks number skills the way they thought would tune down the ramp up of conditions. No specific goal for elementalist just a common goal on conditions for the game.

 

> What direction should build crafters for ele in pvp should look now after this changes? What are balance team suggestions?

 

It's not their job to suggest builds to players, this is something that players have to find by themself.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Morwath.9817" said:

> What I would like to see "hotfixed" :

> * Confusion damage reduced in sPvP by ~20%.

> * Arcane Prowess gives now 3 stacks of Might for 6 seconds instead of 1 for 8 seconds.

> * Mutilate Defenses refreshed whenever Revenant switches Legend rather than uses Elite.

> * Barier granted by Scrouge skills reduced, added better scalling with Healing Power to compensate.

> * Firebrand F2 #1 healing reduced by 15%, to balance overall healing output increased by buff of F2 #4.

> * Merciful Intervention rerolled back to prepatch and it's revive effect moved to Rebound (Tempest Elite skill).

 

I would also suggest, on top of the 20% (though i would say more like 30%) remove the passive damage it deals. Make it so that it only deals damage when you use an ability. Maybe make it so that you can still auto attack without taking any damage.

 

I would say REVERT the Arcane Prowess change. But if its too be changed (again) no more might, maybe Might on Crit hits or something. Make it more meaningful. So that its not so passive

 

I would agree with this change, though it would actually increase the cool down when you use Mal or that new one?

 

Yes! I would say a 25% decrease at base, say 50% increase for Healing Power bonus. Odd numbers, but you get the idea.

 

Decrease in healing is defo needed, i dont play this so not sure a good number, playing against it can be very tedious.

[otto.5684]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > What I would like to see "hotfixed" :

> > * Arcane Prowess gives now 3 stacks of Might for 6 seconds instead of 1 for 8 seconds.

>

> Please no. I actually want more might traits to follow this example, of giving out only 1 stack of might but for longer durations. Due to how powerful 25stacks of might is, to me its something that should be primarily coming from might generation skills, not from traits. Yet right now in PvE the might generation comes almost entirely from traits, because they will pump out both high stacks and relatively high duration of might simultaneously.

 

I agree with you that the might stacking is growing out of hand lately. Though this was unnecessary nerf to ele, which is already performing very poorly in sPvP. And honestly changing it from 1 stack to 3 or 5 is not of much relevance. Fury was far more useful.

 

[InsaneQR.7412]

I like the revisiting if power ranger. I am a little dissapointed on the new trait farsighted though. I like the change that you now can dodge without losing the dmg bonus that steady focus gave, but i am not a fan of the projectile only part because it limits it to 3 ranger weapons and some OH skills.

I like the improvement on GS it needed some improvement.

 

What i missed was improvement on sword. The AA is fine but the other 2 skills are very clunky and slow. Especially hornet sting-monarchsleap chain is clunky nowadays and some improvent on that would be beneficial for the weapon.

 

In addition to that i would also see some improvements on dagger OH and dagger MH 2.

OH is bland and outdated and needs some improvements and especially some range.

MH dagger 2 is just an improved AA and i would like see better synergy with SBeast traits like predators cunning and twice as vicious.

 

The condi changes werent that big of a deal but it made torch 4 even more unflavorful and utility free. Some improvements there could be nice too.

 

Last but not least i want zo complain (sorry i know i complain all over the place) about signet if the wild. The passive is really good. The animation is gorgeous, but the active effect is borderline mediocre. Its good against breakbars but does not benefit any playstyle. Some hard CC would be nice to see and would give it still a unique niche.

 

I could go on for days with pet improvements but i think my input for weapons and the signet are enough for the moment.

 

PS: I assume you fixed the spider beastmode poisoncloud, its working but i cant see any of this in the patchnotes.

Greetings.

 

 

[Ertrak.9506]

> @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > @"Ertrak.9506" said:

> > This changes actually feels good. Went into wvw and we were actually able to not have to rely solely on pirate shipping tactics (spell breaker bubble still needs a nerf).

> >

> > Irenio, can you please look into buffing Condi Rev for PvE please? These balance changes were good and need but they had a side effect that knocked Condi rev below where it should be in raids compared to other dps builds (ie Condi mirage)

>

> Condi rev lost 0 damage. It just has higher ramp up time now and even that is relatively miniscule since most of it's major damaging abilities are pulsing fields or low application and therefore weren't touched.

 

I would agree if my dps hadn't dropped 2-3k post patch for using the same gear traits buffs and rotation. Either something is bugged or something was actually nerfed.

[Remix.2086]

You can't please everyone. I for one definitely enjoy this patch. I actually have time to use clears with a 1s cast time. And it's not needed beyond useless. Its about right for scourges. You still have to out play them but they don't get to instadown you if you come within melee.

 

I say good job. Keep up the good work. Definitely a step in the right direction.

 

Condi players will cry because they actually have to play the game. So keep pressing and force the bads to get good.

 

Thanks for a good patch.

[reikken.4961]

If confusion is supposed to be burst, you need to _severely_ shorten the duration. As well as remove the ability to stack up so much torment in tandem with it. Currently a mirage can apply lots of confusion as well as nearly every other condition simultaneously, and the confusion lasts so long that if you try to wait it out, you die to other damage. There is no correct choice.

 

I also don't understand the logic behind nerfing skills that were already extremely underused.

[reikken.4961]

> @"Morwath.9817" said:

> What I would like to see "hotfixed" :

> * Confusion damage reduced in sPvP by ~20%.

 

I would rather see the _duration_ take a cut. Since it's apparently supposed to be a burst condition. Maybe -33%. Or 40-50% and buff the skill use damage.

 

 

[gmmg.9210]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> The strength line already gives you endurance regen on landing a burst attack, which are on really short CDs as it is. It has plenty of endurance regen, especially looking at signet of stamina. 5 endurance per stack of might was ridiculous, especially when you also consider all of the sustain that warrior has. Might makes right is probably too weak to be a GM trait now, I agree with you, but it should not go back to 5 endurance per stack of might. Absolutely nothing over 3, but I think that 2 is good considering building momentum and Signet of stamina is always an option if you want to build a dodge spam build.

 

I can see why people thought 5 endurance was too much but 2 is too little. Again it takes a full 25 stacks of might to gain one dodge. And of course, even when going might crazy, this is hard to maintain. So yes I agree that 3 would be preferable. Even if they nerfed healing as a result, I'd still rather that.

 

Also, and I can't believe I'm saying this, I preferred Stick and Move to what they have now. Adding an additional 10 power per stack of might doesn't add up to 10% damage bonus unless it's near 20 stacks. Why?? We basically got a dmg nerf, a grandmaster trait nerf, but don't worry guys they made reckless dodge give one stack of might now when it actually hits someone.

 

Basically, core warrior is bad again, congrats Anet. Now if you want to be competitive you HAVE to go SB.

Also condi's are still broken.

[Morwath.9817]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > > > What I would like to see "hotfixed" :

> > > > * Arcane Prowess gives now 3 stacks of Might for 6 seconds instead of 1 for 8 seconds.

> > >

> > > Please no. I actually want more might traits to follow this example, of giving out only 1 stack of might but for longer durations. Due to how powerful 25stacks of might is, to me its something that should be primarily coming from might generation skills, not from traits. Yet right now in PvE the might generation comes almost entirely from traits, because they will pump out both high stacks and relatively high duration of might simultaneously.

> >

> > **Arcane Prowess** was **Arcane Fury** pre 12/12, which was giving **Fury** and current version of **Arcane Prowess** is pure nerf compared to prepatch day.

> > Elementalist was supposed to be buffed, not nerfed.

>

> I know it was a nerf to eles. I was just saying that I wish more might stacking traits followed this example of only giving out 1 might, maybe 2 for some traits.

 

I don't know how I should read your post (?), you want:

a) nerf Might sources to **Arcane Prowess** level across all professions;

or

b) you want to nerf few other Ele traits to **Arcane Prowess** level (?)

 

While I would love to see nerf to Fire reverted - Cantrips should give Might once again and Blinding Ashes should have ICD reduced from 8s to 4s as it was when it was introduced with new current trait system, as those were extremly good in 2015, I don't think they would be even close to _too good_ in 2018...

I completly disagree with leaving **Arcane Prowess** as it's, it's not only nerf, it's barely useful.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"reikken.4961" said:

> > @"Morwath.9817" said:

> > What I would like to see "hotfixed" :

> > * Confusion damage reduced in sPvP by ~20%.

>

> I would rather see the _duration_ take a cut. Since it's apparently supposed to be a burst condition. Maybe -33%. Or 40-50% and buff the skill use damage.

 

50% Reduced duration across the board for Confusion. No increase in damage. PvP and WvW Only. So the PvEers dont cry. It does NOT need a damage increase due to just how insanely high the stacks can get inside a second or 2, You will be taking 3k+ damage per a skill usage with ease. I take 2.5k+ ticks with just 10 (i say "just" but thats low for what they can do...) stacks of confusion.