Not sure about this, but condi builds are even more behind power now?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Mamma il Dio.2074" said:

> > > > @"Turkadactyl.5308" said:

> > > > "Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

> > >

> > > I'm sorry but condi has always been behind power with the exception of few bosses maybe. Now I think condi is way behind power. Consider it also from fractls point of view, all condi classes became useless. I can understand making condi less bursty in a pvp/Wvw environment which makes sense, but in pve it was just silly decision imo. Before this patch i was really open to all classes/builds as dps in fractals, and now honestly it's not worth at all to play a condi class. too many short fights, invuln phases. RIP condis. Maybe only hybrid condi weav can be still viable but havent tried yet. Anyway i may be wrong but this is my opinion at the moment. And the same applies to raid bosses. If before patch condi classes were more or less on the same level of power, now there is a huge gap. and why? honestly no clue.. leaving power weaver on 50k, and condis on 30k .. i dont really understand.

> >

> > For high-end fractal play - yes. Condi was behind (except on cm 100) and now can only fall further behind. For raids - no, condi was pretty balanced (except in 99th percentile which is irrelevant). And now it won't change that much. Clone Mirage actually got buffed, Soulbeast is more or less unchanged, Firebrand and Daredevil seem to be fairly strong according to [sC](https://snowcrows.com/builds/ "SC"). Renegade and Engi seem to be taking the big hits, possibly pushing Renegade into support and Engi toward power Holosmith.

>

> Whoa hold your horses there. You mean you actually looked at the patch notes, now at the skills affected, at the meta builds and back to the skills affected and realised not much changed for all but engy and rev?

>

> Don’t you know common sense isn’t allowed in the forums let alone deductive reasoning.

 

No, I looked at fresh SC benchmarks. Aside from Mirage, that I played myself.

[Mamma il Dio.2074]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Mamma il Dio.2074" said:

> > > > > @"Turkadactyl.5308" said:

> > > > > "Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

> > > >

> > > > I'm sorry but condi has always been behind power with the exception of few bosses maybe. Now I think condi is way behind power. Consider it also from fractls point of view, all condi classes became useless. I can understand making condi less bursty in a pvp/Wvw environment which makes sense, but in pve it was just silly decision imo. Before this patch i was really open to all classes/builds as dps in fractals, and now honestly it's not worth at all to play a condi class. too many short fights, invuln phases. RIP condis. Maybe only hybrid condi weav can be still viable but havent tried yet. Anyway i may be wrong but this is my opinion at the moment. And the same applies to raid bosses. If before patch condi classes were more or less on the same level of power, now there is a huge gap. and why? honestly no clue.. leaving power weaver on 50k, and condis on 30k .. i dont really understand.

> > >

> > > For high-end fractal play - yes. Condi was behind (except on cm 100) and now can only fall further behind. For raids - no, condi was pretty balanced (except in 99th percentile which is irrelevant). And now it won't change that much. Clone Mirage actually got buffed, Soulbeast is more or less unchanged, Firebrand and Daredevil seem to be fairly strong according to [sC](https://snowcrows.com/builds/ "SC"). Renegade and Engi seem to be taking the big hits, possibly pushing Renegade into support and Engi toward power Holosmith.

> >

> > Whoa hold your horses there. You mean you actually looked at the patch notes, now at the skills affected, at the meta builds and back to the skills affected and realised not much changed for all but engy and rev?

> >

> > Don’t you know common sense isn’t allowed in the forums let alone deductive reasoning.

>

> No, I looked at fresh SC benchmarks. Aside from Mirage, that I played myself.

 

So i still dont understand. Why nerf something that was balanced? Before all condis could compete to power in most bosses( being slightly behind, and stronger on just few bosses ) which seemed fair to me. Now i'm pretty sure condi will remain behind in most of the bosses and can be good only on the same cairn, sab, mo- Plus for other content condis become useless to play now compared to powers, since the fights are much shorter, there are invuln phases, etc like fractals. About open world in pof/hot maps condisì was great , but now it takes double of the time to kill mobs. So Please explain me xD And condi was still behind even on 100 cm, i played a lot cweaver sword focus, and had great bursts of 40-50k on first boss first 33%, where with staff i can reach even higher dps 60k+ also. It was only even on Arkk, but power could still overcome due to aoe. 99 cm ? way behind in all bosses a part from 3rd, still behind tho. and for all other fractals is useless to say. I repeeat, this balance made sense if they limited to PvP/WvW. To pve i really cant understand.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Mamma il Dio.2074" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Mamma il Dio.2074" said:

> > > > > > @"Turkadactyl.5308" said:

> > > > > > "Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm sorry but condi has always been behind power with the exception of few bosses maybe. Now I think condi is way behind power. Consider it also from fractls point of view, all condi classes became useless. I can understand making condi less bursty in a pvp/Wvw environment which makes sense, but in pve it was just silly decision imo. Before this patch i was really open to all classes/builds as dps in fractals, and now honestly it's not worth at all to play a condi class. too many short fights, invuln phases. RIP condis. Maybe only hybrid condi weav can be still viable but havent tried yet. Anyway i may be wrong but this is my opinion at the moment. And the same applies to raid bosses. If before patch condi classes were more or less on the same level of power, now there is a huge gap. and why? honestly no clue.. leaving power weaver on 50k, and condis on 30k .. i dont really understand.

> > > >

> > > > For high-end fractal play - yes. Condi was behind (except on cm 100) and now can only fall further behind. For raids - no, condi was pretty balanced (except in 99th percentile which is irrelevant). And now it won't change that much. Clone Mirage actually got buffed, Soulbeast is more or less unchanged, Firebrand and Daredevil seem to be fairly strong according to [sC](https://snowcrows.com/builds/ "SC"). Renegade and Engi seem to be taking the big hits, possibly pushing Renegade into support and Engi toward power Holosmith.

> > >

> > > Whoa hold your horses there. You mean you actually looked at the patch notes, now at the skills affected, at the meta builds and back to the skills affected and realised not much changed for all but engy and rev?

> > >

> > > Don’t you know common sense isn’t allowed in the forums let alone deductive reasoning.

> >

> > No, I looked at fresh SC benchmarks. Aside from Mirage, that I played myself.

>

> So i still dont understand. Why nerf something that was balanced? Before all condis could compete to power in most bosses( being slightly behind, and stronger on just few bosses ) which seemed fair to me. Now i'm pretty sure condi will remain behind in most of the bosses and can be good only on the same cairn, sab, mo- Plus for other content condis become useless to play now compared to powers, since the fights are much shorter, there are invuln phases, etc like fractals. About open world in pof/hot maps condisì was great , but now it takes double of the time to kill mobs. So Please explain me xD And condi was still behind even on 100 cm, i played a lot cweaver sword focus, and had great bursts of 40-50k on first boss first 33%, where with staff i can reach even higher dps 60k+ also. It was only even on Arkk, but power could still overcome due to aoe. 99 cm ? way behind in all bosses a part from 3rd, still behind tho. and for all other fractals is useless to say. I repeeat, this balance made sense if they limited to PvP/WvW. To pve i really cant understand.

 

I think it's mostly about the pvp modes indeed. Condi bombing was a real thing there (at least in WvW, I don't play sPvP) and it needed attention. I'm not convinced the changes affected the large-scale balance in PvE. Sure, some builds got hit hard. Others, not so much. I'm sure condi builds will still have their place where they used to excel (e.g. Matthias and Carin). For the rest? They'll still be lackluster where they used to (KC) and they'll probably be still usable on the rest.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Mamma il Dio.2074" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Mamma il Dio.2074" said:

> > > > > > @"Turkadactyl.5308" said:

> > > > > > "Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm sorry but condi has always been behind power with the exception of few bosses maybe. Now I think condi is way behind power. Consider it also from fractls point of view, all condi classes became useless. I can understand making condi less bursty in a pvp/Wvw environment which makes sense, but in pve it was just silly decision imo. Before this patch i was really open to all classes/builds as dps in fractals, and now honestly it's not worth at all to play a condi class. too many short fights, invuln phases. RIP condis. Maybe only hybrid condi weav can be still viable but havent tried yet. Anyway i may be wrong but this is my opinion at the moment. And the same applies to raid bosses. If before patch condi classes were more or less on the same level of power, now there is a huge gap. and why? honestly no clue.. leaving power weaver on 50k, and condis on 30k .. i dont really understand.

> > > >

> > > > For high-end fractal play - yes. Condi was behind (except on cm 100) and now can only fall further behind. For raids - no, condi was pretty balanced (except in 99th percentile which is irrelevant). And now it won't change that much. Clone Mirage actually got buffed, Soulbeast is more or less unchanged, Firebrand and Daredevil seem to be fairly strong according to [sC](https://snowcrows.com/builds/ "SC"). Renegade and Engi seem to be taking the big hits, possibly pushing Renegade into support and Engi toward power Holosmith.

> > >

> > > Whoa hold your horses there. You mean you actually looked at the patch notes, now at the skills affected, at the meta builds and back to the skills affected and realised not much changed for all but engy and rev?

> > >

> > > Don’t you know common sense isn’t allowed in the forums let alone deductive reasoning.

> >

> > No, I looked at fresh SC benchmarks. Aside from Mirage, that I played myself.

>

> So i still dont understand. Why nerf something that was balanced? Before all condis could compete to power in most bosses( being slightly behind, and stronger on just few bosses ) which seemed fair to me. Now i'm pretty sure condi will remain behind in most of the bosses and can be good only on the same cairn, sab, mo- Plus for other content condis become useless to play now compared to powers, since the fights are much shorter, there are invuln phases, etc like fractals. About open world in pof/hot maps condisì was great , but now it takes double of the time to kill mobs. So Please explain me xD And condi was still behind even on 100 cm, i played a lot cweaver sword focus, and had great bursts of 40-50k on first boss first 33%, where with staff i can reach even higher dps 60k+ also. It was only even on Arkk, but power could still overcome due to aoe. 99 cm ? way behind in all bosses a part from 3rd, still behind tho. and for all other fractals is useless to say. I repeeat, this balance made sense if they limited to PvP/WvW. To pve i really cant understand.

 

I think you’re misunderstanding both the patch and the raid and fractal builds used, how and why they are how they are.

 

Power is front loaded damage but drops off usually, there’s very few power builds that are a consistant damage level, instead it’s spikes of high damage then lulls of lower damage but evens out to be competitive at ~33k. These builds can usually lose out a lot if something goes wrong at those spike phases.

 

Condition damage is supposed to be good damage over time but takes a little bit of time to ramp up, it is much more uniform and produces less spikes in damage so it loses out a lot less if someone messes up at some point and these were/most are competitive at ~33k.

 

A lot of the condition builds (note there’s some exceptions) are much easier to perform than their power counterparts, mirage is even quite resistant to the rest of your team messing up and not giving you important buffs like spirits, banners, alacrity and quickness so you can spend most of your time focusing on the boss or really hitting the perfect timing on boss phases. As said earlier the complexity of power builds is generally higher but it varies, power DH is probably the easiest but is still harder than condi soulbeast but probably easier than rev, power holo and weaver are far more difficult than most condi builds and as mentioned above can get completely screwed over by an unfortunate turn of events such as bosses moving too much, phasing at awkward times, throwing out CC while casting something important, mostly weaver that one.

 

In fractals it’s true power builds are more effective except 100 CM, this is largely due to many encounters being either low health mobs, multiphase boss fights or low health bosses which makes any build with a decent ramp up time less ideal. The exceptions to this is condi soulbeast and firebrand (FB might have changed now) which had a very low ramp up time and so could likewise be used in all fractals without anyone caring that they were condi, this doesn’t mean they were better or quite equal just that for average players the difference won’t be that noticeable as everything will die promptly anyway.

 

As to why change it? Well in WvW burst condition damage was a real thing that was making the game mode unfun for a lot of players, same for PvP and ANet didn’t want the skills to differ so widely between the different modes. It also didn’t fit with the philosophy of condition builds being high dps but longer ramp up time so changes were (and still are as this hasn’t been met) needed to get closer to that goal.

 

In reality condition soulbeast was one of the strongest condition builds in the game and hasn’t been nerfed much at all so is still a great pick as is condi thief and mirage where you might want to run them. Power builds still suck on bosses where they sucked before and in general condition builds are easier to play so offer great damage for average players while suffering less from mistakes.

 

For the vast majority of players this patch changes very little unless you were in the 99th percentile, played scourge or condi berserker.

[zealex.9410]

"Condi build are even more behind power builds now" LUL as if that was ever the case in the past.

[Mamma il Dio.2074]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Mamma il Dio.2074" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Mamma il Dio.2074" said:

> > > > > > > @"Turkadactyl.5308" said:

> > > > > > > "Even more behind" implies that condi was behind power on most things, which it wasn't. With the exception of bosses with lots of phases that remove conditions (e.g., Keep Construct), condi builds were in a very good place in raids and high-end fractals, and they still are. As others have noted, damage is essentially the same, just takes a little longer to apply, which isn't a problem on most bosses since you've got plenty of time for conditions to tick. Perhaps a few bosses will see shifts towards a power meta, but it's really not the end of the world if bosses are varied in what works.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm sorry but condi has always been behind power with the exception of few bosses maybe. Now I think condi is way behind power. Consider it also from fractls point of view, all condi classes became useless. I can understand making condi less bursty in a pvp/Wvw environment which makes sense, but in pve it was just silly decision imo. Before this patch i was really open to all classes/builds as dps in fractals, and now honestly it's not worth at all to play a condi class. too many short fights, invuln phases. RIP condis. Maybe only hybrid condi weav can be still viable but havent tried yet. Anyway i may be wrong but this is my opinion at the moment. And the same applies to raid bosses. If before patch condi classes were more or less on the same level of power, now there is a huge gap. and why? honestly no clue.. leaving power weaver on 50k, and condis on 30k .. i dont really understand.

> > > > >

> > > > > For high-end fractal play - yes. Condi was behind (except on cm 100) and now can only fall further behind. For raids - no, condi was pretty balanced (except in 99th percentile which is irrelevant). And now it won't change that much. Clone Mirage actually got buffed, Soulbeast is more or less unchanged, Firebrand and Daredevil seem to be fairly strong according to [sC](https://snowcrows.com/builds/ "SC"). Renegade and Engi seem to be taking the big hits, possibly pushing Renegade into support and Engi toward power Holosmith.

> > > >

> > > > Whoa hold your horses there. You mean you actually looked at the patch notes, now at the skills affected, at the meta builds and back to the skills affected and realised not much changed for all but engy and rev?

> > > >

> > > > Don’t you know common sense isn’t allowed in the forums let alone deductive reasoning.

> > >

> > > No, I looked at fresh SC benchmarks. Aside from Mirage, that I played myself.

> >

> > So i still dont understand. Why nerf something that was balanced? Before all condis could compete to power in most bosses( being slightly behind, and stronger on just few bosses ) which seemed fair to me. Now i'm pretty sure condi will remain behind in most of the bosses and can be good only on the same cairn, sab, mo- Plus for other content condis become useless to play now compared to powers, since the fights are much shorter, there are invuln phases, etc like fractals. About open world in pof/hot maps condisì was great , but now it takes double of the time to kill mobs. So Please explain me xD And condi was still behind even on 100 cm, i played a lot cweaver sword focus, and had great bursts of 40-50k on first boss first 33%, where with staff i can reach even higher dps 60k+ also. It was only even on Arkk, but power could still overcome due to aoe. 99 cm ? way behind in all bosses a part from 3rd, still behind tho. and for all other fractals is useless to say. I repeeat, this balance made sense if they limited to PvP/WvW. To pve i really cant understand.

>

> I think you’re misunderstanding both the patch and the raid and fractal builds used, how and why they are how they are.

>

> Power is front loaded damage but drops off usually, there’s very few power builds that are a consistant damage level, instead it’s spikes of high damage then lulls of lower damage but evens out to be competitive at ~33k. These builds can usually lose out a lot if something goes wrong at those spike phases.

>

> Condition damage is supposed to be good damage over time but takes a little bit of time to ramp up, it is much more uniform and produces less spikes in damage so it loses out a lot less if someone messes up at some point and these were/most are competitive at ~33k.

>

> A lot of the condition builds (note there’s some exceptions) are much easier to perform than their power counterparts, mirage is even quite resistant to the rest of your team messing up and not giving you important buffs like spirits, banners, alacrity and quickness so you can spend most of your time focusing on the boss or really hitting the perfect timing on boss phases. As said earlier the complexity of power builds is generally higher but it varies, power DH is probably the easiest but is still harder than condi soulbeast but probably easier than rev, power holo and weaver are far more difficult than most condi builds and as mentioned above can get completely screwed over by an unfortunate turn of events such as bosses moving too much, phasing at awkward times, throwing out CC while casting something important, mostly weaver that one.

>

> In fractals it’s true power builds are more effective except 100 CM, this is largely due to many encounters being either low health mobs, multiphase boss fights or low health bosses which makes any build with a decent ramp up time less ideal. The exceptions to this is condi soulbeast and firebrand (FB might have changed now) which had a very low ramp up time and so could likewise be used in all fractals without anyone caring that they were condi, this doesn’t mean they were better or quite equal just that for average players the difference won’t be that noticeable as everything will die promptly anyway.

>

> As to why change it? Well in WvW burst condition damage was a real thing that was making the game mode unfun for a lot of players, same for PvP and ANet didn’t want the skills to differ so widely between the different modes. It also didn’t fit with the philosophy of condition builds being high dps but longer ramp up time so changes were (and still are as this hasn’t been met) needed to get closer to that goal.

>

> In reality condition soulbeast was one of the strongest condition builds in the game and hasn’t been nerfed much at all so is still a great pick as is condi thief and mirage where you might want to run them. Power builds still suck on bosses where they sucked before and in general condition builds are easier to play so offer great damage for average players while suffering less from mistakes.

>

> For the vast majority of players this patch changes very little unless you were in the 99th percentile, played scourge or condi berserker.

 

I understand perfectly, and we agree only pvp/wvw wise as i said in my response, because in that content it does make sense. In pve no i totally disagree. As much condi builds are easier to play they were still behind power in most scenarios. In raid, and especially in fractals and most open world too. To mention 2 factors, condi has less burst, condi doesnt have cleave damage, or it does but cant be compared, and still was behind in dps. In 100 cm i can ensure you no condi class could compare to a dh or a weaver. I play well both weaver and soulbeast/cweaver/firebrand, and i'm sorry there is no comparison in dps. As much they were good. But now they nerfed condis too much, at least for fractals. And Anet made the meta boring as before again, with decent groups taking only dh or weavers or specifically POWER dps, while before honestly every class as dps was good, if played good. And for good reasons lol. There is no fight long enough to make any condi class worth being played. Then for raid it may remain more or less the same. But raid isnt the only content you know.

[Kundry.1249]

Isn't the entire "Power vs. Condi" picture kind of bogus? Most specs only have one of either power or condi as meta builds at the moment, and spec mechanics play a larger role than the damage type. Sure, Weaver and Dragonhunter, the premier power specs, happen to have great burst AoEs, but you can't go from there to "power is bursty and has good cleave." Power mesmer (not exactly meta, but still) has very bad burst or cleave; condi Firebrand has good burst and cleave, etc.