Is it possible for a balance patch to be more worthless?

[Zlater.6789]

I literally never complained about Condi thief, its always been an easy kill for me so like for me it doesn't actually matter, I'm just reiterating the community's complaints.

I'm not upset about the state of Condi thief, I'm upset about the pointlessness of the patch, you're the one obsessing over Condi thief, but it's not the topic of this thread.

 

If its performing "roughly as intended" to you then please explain why staff thief does the same single target DPS as a Condi scourge who has busted cleave, massive defense utility, tonnes of Condi cleansing and boon strip to compensate.

Please explain why deadeye is only viable in WvW, there isn't even a testing build for deadeye on meta-battle (pvp) or qtfy/snowcrows (PvE).

[saerni.2584]

The patch wasn’t about us. It was about class balance and the issue that Scourge was stacking conditions too quickly. Now that isn’t able to happen quite as much and people are mad about Mirage because it can constantly apply confusion.

 

No thief was applying 30+ stacks of torment/confusion/poison. Spider Venom could but it required other players to all be hitting the same target so it wasn’t as much in need of adjustment.

 

The patch was small and not intended to address anything outside of burst condi and vulnerability application uptime (nerfed for several classes). It isn’t the last balance on either of those subjects. It also isn’t the only balance we will see.

 

The next quarterly balance patch early next year should be more substantial and focused on larger balance issues. That’s really all I can say without speculating too much.

 

Edit: I’ll add that any patch that nerfs other classes is good for us. Thief benefits from scourge changes for example.

[Zlater.6789]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> The patch wasn’t about us. It was about class balance and the issue that Scourge was stacking conditions too quickly. Now that isn’t able to happen quite as much and people are mad about Mirage because it can constantly apply confusion.

>

> No thief was applying 30+ stacks of torment/confusion/poison. Spider Venom could but it required other players to all be hitting the same target so it wasn’t as much in need of adjustment.

>

> The patch was small and not intended to address anything outside of burst condi and vulnerability application uptime (nerfed for several classes). It isn’t the last balance on either of those subjects. It also isn’t the only balance we will see.

>

> The next quarterly balance patch early next year should be more substantial and focused on larger balance issues. That’s really all I can say without speculating too much.

>

> Edit: I’ll add that any patch that nerfs other classes is good for us. Thief benefits from scourge changes for example.

 

Inspiring Distortion: This trait now grants 5 seconds of aegis instead of 1 second of distortion.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

I'm doing way more DPS with rifle than I was before. I'm very happy with the rifle changes.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Zlater.6789" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > The patch wasn’t about us. It was about class balance and the issue that Scourge was stacking conditions too quickly. Now that isn’t able to happen quite as much and people are mad about Mirage because it can constantly apply confusion.

> >

> > No thief was applying 30+ stacks of torment/confusion/poison. Spider Venom could but it required other players to all be hitting the same target so it wasn’t as much in need of adjustment.

> >

> > The patch was small and not intended to address anything outside of burst condi and vulnerability application uptime (nerfed for several classes). It isn’t the last balance on either of those subjects. It also isn’t the only balance we will see.

> >

> > The next quarterly balance patch early next year should be more substantial and focused on larger balance issues. That’s really all I can say without speculating too much.

> >

> > Edit: I’ll add that any patch that nerfs other classes is good for us. Thief benefits from scourge changes for example.

>

> Inspiring Distortion: This trait now grants 5 seconds of aegis instead of 1 second of distortion.

 

That’s actually a nerf to me. Boons can be corrupted and ripped. Aegis is one attack. I can do a lot against a single aegis stack that I can’t do against distortion.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> Edit: I’ll add that any patch that nerfs other classes is good for us. Thief benefits from scourge changes for example.

 

That's true for literally any class or build, not sure why you felt the need to write this :D.

[babazhook.6805]

As far as a thief being "bursty" when it comes to applying conditions, they can be so .

 

I am not talking about deathblossom and lotus training as those would not qualify as burst. I am talking about synergizing steal with some combination of BA, Improv, S/x with steal reset, mercy. needle trap and the new stolens out of DE. Contrary to what many have suggested, DrD line is not all that friendly to Condition builds and especially when it comes to applying bursts of the same.

 

In order to get this burst to work , a number of traits must be taken and a sequence of events must be allowed to occur by an enemy player. That is the enemy has a number of choices and counters available to counter that burst unlike some of the other classes where there only one thing that can be done.

 

Just as example on core build I would on occassion pull this off. Preload needle trap and steal to opponent. BA is traited. Hidden thief is traited. P/d weapon of choice. Panic strike taken in a DA/TR/SA build with potent poison. One venom taken and loaded.(spider)

 

Steal procs the trap which drops on foe. This trap triggers a venom strike and 4 poison 3 bleeds off the trap (add one poison with its immob). 3 poison comes from Serpents touch. Thief is stealthed so uses P/d auto for 5 bleed which also applies the remaining Venom poison strikes with an added 5 poison. 5 confusion is added from BA steal. Shadowstrike away for 2 torment. The foe is also immobed from needle. The burst take up all of one skill using INI.

 

Sum total 13 poison , 8 bleed , Immob , and 5 confusion.

 

Obviously this can not be done again for some time as all goes on ICD but it IS burst and significant burst. It also not something I would deem as OP or as unwarranted burst as it can rarely be pulled off. There all a lot of checks to ensure that does not happen.

[Dahkeus.8243]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > Edit: I’ll add that any patch that nerfs other classes is good for us. Thief benefits from scourge changes for example.

>

> That's true for literally any class or build, not sure why you felt the need to write this :D.

 

Probably because it’s true?

 

Look, Thief has two very strong builds for PvP (S/D and D/P) as well as several other more gimmicky builds that are viable enough for lower end play. Rifle Deadeye still needs work, but as many have pointed out before: this is an inherently bad build from a balance perspective.

 

 

Thief was practically unchanged from the patch while the two builds that have overshadowed everything else in PvP (Scourge and Firebrand) have been knocked down a peg.

 

And the outcome from the patch is that the experience of playing one in PvP is better than pre-patch. You can not-pick about certain abilities that weren’t really meaningful before getting nerfed, but if you look at the forest instead of the trees, *it’s a very good time to be a good thief*.

 

 

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Majirah.5089" said:

> > @"Kallist.5917" said:

> > Honestly. They buff stuff and your not happy? Is it because you dont use these things? Is it because they didnt give you a button that says you win? Or maybe its because they didnt buff your meta play build? Im not sure what you want, they are finally working on giving a thief more options that you are mad about it.. Hybrid DE is in a far better place today than it was yesterday, and P/D is a great set for focused damage on a venom build, they helped both of those today with this. And considering we were all fully expecting a nerf to Condition, this is all welcomed news. Also, that Cursed bullet can hit for 20K. I would love to see you doing that with your auto attack.

>

> Not trying to deny what you said. Just want to see how you do it. How do you get cursed bullet to hit for 20k? Build might and malice then hit it? Zerker stats?

 

Pretty much, not even need the might.

I've hit 20+K with it on champs in PVE. Rifle isn't useless per se, but because of the way spawns are done, and the overall game works, and how pistol is actually better, it falls behind a lot, but for big meaty stuff like champs? If you have someone tanking it, Rifle's kinda awesome.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Zlater.6789" said:

> > @"Cirrion.8951" said:

> > That's the opposite of his point =) . My friend here DOES think that condi thieves deal burst damage, which is an untrue statement. He's specifically complaining about Lotus Training and Death Blossom as being bursty skills. Both of those skills take 10-20 seconds to apply their full damage potential and need to be repeatedly applied over time to deal significant damage. That is the exact opposite of a bursty skill.

> >

> > Condi thieves didn't get nerfed because their skills already worked the way that ANet wants condi skills to work. THAT is my point.

>

> I'm actually not that concerned about the burstiness of condi thief specifically. I am concerned however about anet not addressing the problems the community has with condi thief despite them saying this is what they are trying to do. There are so many meaningful changes they could have made that would have made the game more healthy, but instead of doing something about it they left it in the too hard pile.

> One of those things would have very clearly been condi thief (as an example), both the d/d and s/d variants in both PvP and PvE game modes. One of the biggest abusers in both is lotus training, which pumps out a minimum 3 bleeds and 3 torment on each dodge roll, not including traits and combo finishers.

 

Lotus traing does NOT pump out a minumum of three bleeds and 3 torment per dodge roll. You get one of torment and one of bleed. You can only get more if there more targets wherein each added target will take a single strike of each up to three targets. In other words in a 1v1 Lotus gets you 1 torment, one cripple, one bleed. In this respect it very much like DB. DB can apply up to 9 strikes per use BUT in order to do so you need three enemy in range and each will take no more then 3 stacks each.

 

That dodge roll applying one each of torment bleed and cripple will do significantly less damage then a single dodge roll in a power build using bounding.

 

In order for those condition builds to work in an impaling build , one is relying on other traits and utilities to add more conditions , which is as it should be. If i can take multiples of Percent damage modifiers to boost my power thiefs overall damage , there no reason a condition oritented thief should not be able to take traits and utilities that boost condition damage output.

 

So how on earth can you suggest that Lotus training "abuses" condition application?

[saerni.2584]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > Edit: I’ll add that any patch that nerfs other classes is good for us. Thief benefits from scourge changes for example.

>

> That's true for literally any class or build, not sure why you felt the need to write this :D.

 

Just responding to “this patch was pointless.” It wasn’t and it helped us overall.

 

We don’t disagree on the condition burst aspect on P/D. I’ve run variations on that build for years and never felt I do “too much damage” for the commitment I make to damage at a given time.

[Cirrion.8951]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"Zlater.6789" said:

> > > @"Cirrion.8951" said:

> > > That's the opposite of his point =) . My friend here DOES think that condi thieves deal burst damage, which is an untrue statement. He's specifically complaining about Lotus Training and Death Blossom as being bursty skills. Both of those skills take 10-20 seconds to apply their full damage potential and need to be repeatedly applied over time to deal significant damage. That is the exact opposite of a bursty skill.

> > >

> > > Condi thieves didn't get nerfed because their skills already worked the way that ANet wants condi skills to work. THAT is my point.

> >

> > I'm actually not that concerned about the burstiness of condi thief specifically. I am concerned however about anet not addressing the problems the community has with condi thief despite them saying this is what they are trying to do. There are so many meaningful changes they could have made that would have made the game more healthy, but instead of doing something about it they left it in the too hard pile.

> > One of those things would have very clearly been condi thief (as an example), both the d/d and s/d variants in both PvP and PvE game modes. One of the biggest abusers in both is lotus training, which pumps out a minimum 3 bleeds and 3 torment on each dodge roll, not including traits and combo finishers.

>

> Lotus traing does NOT pump out a minumum of three bleeds and 3 torment per dodge roll. You get one of torment and one of bleed. You can only get more if there more targets wherein each added target will take a single strike of each up to three targets. In other words in a 1v1 Lotus gets you 1 torment, one cripple, one bleed. In this respect it very much like DB. DB can apply up to 9 strikes per use BUT in order to do so you need three enemy in range and each will take no more then 3 stacks each.

>

> That dodge roll applying one each of torment bleed and cripple will do significantly less damage then a single dodge roll in a power build using bounding.

>

> In order for those condition builds to work in an impaling build , one is relying on other traits and utilities to add more conditions , which is as it should be. If i can take multiples of Percent damage modifiers to boost my power thiefs overall damage , there no reason a condition oritented thief should not be able to take traits and utilities that boost condition damage output.

>

> So how on earth can you suggest that Lotus training "abuses" condition application?

 

No no, you've got it all wrong. HE doesn't think that condi thieves have a problem with being too bursty. He can kill them easily. No, he's not complaining for himself. He's complaining for 'the Community' of players less capable of killing killing condi thieves and who are being burst down by bleeds. He has yet to provide any evidence that this 'Community' exists, but as you can see he's devoted an entire thread to complaining about condi thieves on their behalf, since they cannot speak for themselves.

[Zlater.6789]

> @"Zlater.6789" said:

> These are the changes

>

> Weakening Charge: This skill now moves the thief toward a selected target, but will not allow them to travel through the target.

> **small QoL fix for a build that is almost totally unviable** _if they just put this and none of the other stuff it would have been the same._

>

> Cursed Bullet: Increased base damage by 43%.

> **GJ at making a long setup stealth attack finally do more damage than an auto attack on a weapon set that is worthless**

>

> So all of the next changes are worthless because they are pve only rifle changes

> Spotter's Shot: Increased damage by 18% in PvE only.

> **Totally pointless because its a 100% useless skill in pve**

> Three Round Burst: Increased damage by 18% in PvE Only.

> **possibly the only ok change on rifle, it is still less useful than when it was in the beta**

> Death's Retreat: Reduced initiative cost of this skill from 5 to 4 in PvE only. Poison has been adjusted from 2 stacks for 4 seconds to 1 stack for 8 seconds.

> **PvE only is a joke and a waste of skill splitting** _the issue here is that in PvE this skill has never been clicked, because we have mounts now..._

> Death's Judgment: Reduced initiative cost of this skill from 6 to 5 in PvE only.

> **Its like it doesn't even matter, because you had no initative for this anyway after you used all of your 3 round burst for damage in pve**

> Caltrops: Bleeding has been adjusted from 2 stacks for 5 seconds to 1 stack for 10 seconds.

> **An extremely tiny nerf to the burstiness of condi thief**

>

> It gets even worse

> The Ripper: Bleeding has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 7 seconds to 4 stacks for 10 seconds.

> **ACTUALLY LEGIT AN UNDERWATER SKILL**

> Shadow Strike: Increased applied torment from 2 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 6 seconds.

> **A change to p/d what even?**

> Pressure Striking: Torment duration has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 8 seconds.

> **Nobody ever used this over Bountiful theft, ever!** _Like what is crazy is that if this is taken in pve, it's not even because of this change, it's because of the interrupt change. Like it makes you think it's interesting, but then you really look at it and you realise it's just a cop out._

> Sundering Strikes: This trait has been renamed Sundering Shade. This trait now causes stealth attacks to inflict 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds with a 1-second cooldown.

> **This is just a straight up nerf to a trait nobody ever used**

>

> Don't Stop: Fixed a bug in which this trait failed to remove all instances of the listed conditions.

> **thankyou finally for a bug fix** _literally the only thing here that is appreciated, even better it's in acrobatics so you know it will always be used xD_

>

> Guys if this is what you are putting your money to, please just don't waste time on it, it is better to put that money into another expansion.

 

I changed my mind. I guess the only meaningful change that thieves actually need are a change of attitude.

 

I'm just going to play something else while all the other thieves waste their time obsessing over their bronze level buildcraft. Cya peeps.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Dahkeus.8243" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > Edit: I’ll add that any patch that nerfs other classes is good for us. Thief benefits from scourge changes for example.

> >

> > That's true for literally any class or build, not sure why you felt the need to write this :D.

>

> Probably because it’s true?

 

But that's true for literally any other class/build and it's pretty self explanatory ("if everything is getting nerfed, but you're not, it's good for you" -WOW, no way!). I don't see who would need this to be specifically typed out, even moreso to limit it to a single class like for some reason "it's good specifically for thief", while it's literally the same case for any other class/build.

 

> Look, Thief has two very strong builds for PvP (S/D and D/P) as well as several other more gimmicky builds that are viable enough for lower end play. Rifle Deadeye still needs work, but as many have pointed out before: this is an inherently bad build from a balance perspective.

 

Yes, it does. And yes, I wrote that too, so I can't help but agree :D

 

> Thief was practically unchanged from the patch while the two builds that have overshadowed everything else in PvP (Scourge and Firebrand) have been knocked down a peg.

 

There was a slight DD nerf though. Because apparently the "go to" idea of balancing DE, wasn't to buff it in one way or another, it was to try and bring down other thief build/s. And I'm not a big fan of that approach.

Also the nerfs were mostly to the simply broken specs, which probably shouldn't make it to live servers in that form, right?

 

> And the outcome from the patch is that the experience of playing one in PvP is better than pre-patch. You can not-pick about certain abilities that weren’t really meaningful before getting nerfed, but if you look at the forest instead of the trees, *it’s a very good time to be a good thief*.

 

While I get what you are saying and it makes sense, I think "very good time" is a slight overstatement. But yeah, better than before the patch probably.

[ToPNoP.2493]

The bleed reduction with caltrop was significant and unnecessary. Thief daredevil is already getting mowed down by marage, power weaver, warriors, and holosmiths. I mean, promote pof as good, but to kill a go to build for roamers entirely is really bad business. Mesmers that hit for 24k with that sword throw, weavers that can chain blast a thief in 1/2 second, holosmith with their stun lock and super high dps are all unfair to thief. Just sayin that new players can bash their face on the keyboard and kill vets with broken classes.