Lack of difficult content

[mercury ranique.2170]

> @"Davin Miler.2810" said:

> > @"Lambent.6375" said:

> > When was teq scaled down?

> > The only teq change I remember since the revamp is when they changed his health pool, and allowed him to be crit.

>

> It was changed a long long time ago

>

> Edit: September 17th 2013 to be exact

 

September 17th, 2013 was the Tequatl Rising update.

It was scaled up in that update, not down.

Before it was a regular boss fight. Then it got elevated and the fight was made a lot harder It's when the mega cannon and the need for turrets was added.

[Davin Miler.2810]

> @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > @"Davin Miler.2810" said:

> > > @"Lambent.6375" said:

> > > When was teq scaled down?

> > > The only teq change I remember since the revamp is when they changed his health pool, and allowed him to be crit.

> >

> > It was changed a long long time ago

> >

> > Edit: September 17th 2013 to be exact

>

> September 17th, 2013 was the Tequatl Rising update.

> It was scaled up in that update, not down.

> Before it was a regular boss fight. Then it got elevated and the fight was made a lot harder It's when the mega cannon and the need for turrets was added.

 

Ah, well that's the only thing I could find on the wiki and I haven't been around for very long myself (almost exactly a year) but I heard from many many people that they distinctly remember if getting downscaled at some point

 

[mercury ranique.2170]

> @"Davin Miler.2810" said:

> > @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > > @"Davin Miler.2810" said:

> > > > @"Lambent.6375" said:

> > > > When was teq scaled down?

> > > > The only teq change I remember since the revamp is when they changed his health pool, and allowed him to be crit.

> > >

> > > It was changed a long long time ago

> > >

> > > Edit: September 17th 2013 to be exact

> >

> > September 17th, 2013 was the Tequatl Rising update.

> > It was scaled up in that update, not down.

> > Before it was a regular boss fight. Then it got elevated and the fight was made a lot harder It's when the mega cannon and the need for turrets was added.

>

> Ah, well that's the only thing I could find on the wiki and I haven't been around for very long myself (almost exactly a year) but I heard from many many people that they distinctly remember if getting downscaled at some point

>

 

It did get very slightly downscaled after that. But in my memory it was very minor.

The reason it seems so much easier is cause:

1: 95% of the players know the mechanics, while shortly after it was like 10%

2: with elite specialisations, players skills and dps have increased a lot.

[Kiza.5630]

Sorry but no thanks. I hope we will never again see open world content that is tuned up so much that dedicated and tightly-knit communities form around it just to play it. I love the current concept where I can decide to organize an event just by putting up an entry on LFG and gather people for it. Some of them will still fail if you don't organize players. And that is how the majority of people in the game play.

 

All of them vary in difficulty already. Palawadan is not easy per se. It's just that the game can't scale it high enough. It's a complete joke with 1.5 full squads on the map where everything will just melt in AOE fields.

 

Serpents' Ire has become quite difficult as mostly newbies play it these days. I've done it recently and it failed once and was very close to failing the other times. If you tune that up, even more people will get frustrated and never attempt it again.

 

TL;DR: please keep designing open world content for rag-tag crews gather via LFG rather than communities who play it together regularly. Make 50-man raids if you must.

[Davin Miler.2810]

> @"Kiza.5630" said:

> Sorry but no thanks. I hope we will never again see open world content that is tuned up so much that dedicated and tightly-knit communities form around it just to play it. I love the current concept where I can decide to organize an event just by putting up an entry on LFG and gather people for it. Some of them will still fail if you don't organize players. And that is how the majority of people in the game play.

>

> All of them vary in difficulty already. Palawadan is not easy per se. It's just that the game can't scale it high enough. It's a complete joke with 1.5 full squads on the map where everything will just melt in AOE fields.

>

> Serpents' Ire has become quite difficult as mostly newbies play it these days. I've done it recently and it failed once and was very close to failing the other times. If you tune that up, even more people will get frustrated and never attempt it again.

>

> TL;DR: please keep designing open world content for rag-tag crews gather via LFG rather than communities who play it together regularly. Make 50-man raids if you must.

 

50 man raids is basically what I'm going for. That's something you need to coordinate and be skilled for. Currently our community is really falling apart due to the fact that anyone can just set up a squad and win basically any event. Our community was built around completing difficult content as a team and it is really sad to see it slowly die when people would rather not even commit to joining us on TeamSpeak and set up their own squad.

[Kiza.5630]

Thing is, the majority of people don't _want_ to join some voice chat just to play the game. They do however want epic events GW2 is known for like the HoT maps. None of them required coordination beyond what the map chat provided (original VB and TD excluded). Which is why they were so successful.

 

Anything like raids that require voice chat (I have played my fair share of that in other games) will never be as successful. It's not because all other players are inherently bad or stupid. I've found some very good and interesting people not in any guild or organisation throughout the years. They just don't want all the obligations that come with it. And the drama. ;)

 

So my vote goes to 50-man raids if they really must add zerg-sized content that requires more coordination than the current large scale events. I still think that only a handful would play it.

[Raikidd.5803]

I like hard open world metas, but we will probably not see anet implementing one again because is hard to coordinate 50-100 people. You will always get the guy that just auto attacks, goes afk, waits for a ress, doesn't want to listen to the commander, etc. and if you got an event where everyone needs to do something you will probably fail it.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Hard content is not very wanted by community they easy content with alot of rewards sorry but its how it is and nothing will change that

[Davin Miler.2810]

Actually, hard content is very much wanted by our community. They have grown bored from events such as TT and the like and would like to see new, fresh events that aren't mindless running around. If you like to just farm stuff, there are more than enough lfg groups for that

[starlinvf.1358]

> @"Davin Miler.2810" said:

> > @"mercury ranique.2170" said:

> > > @"Davin Miler.2810" said:

> > > > @"Lambent.6375" said:

> > > > When was teq scaled down?

> > > > The only teq change I remember since the revamp is when they changed his health pool, and allowed him to be crit.

> > >

> > > It was changed a long long time ago

> > >

> > > Edit: September 17th 2013 to be exact

> >

> > September 17th, 2013 was the Tequatl Rising update.

> > It was scaled up in that update, not down.

> > Before it was a regular boss fight. Then it got elevated and the fight was made a lot harder It's when the mega cannon and the need for turrets was added.

>

> Ah, well that's the only thing I could find on the wiki and I haven't been around for very long myself (almost exactly a year) but I heard from many many people that they distinctly remember if getting downscaled at some point

>

 

The down scaling was happened because of the change to Condi stacks. To compensate for the estimated DPS increase of the uncap, all world bosses had their HP pools roughly doubled. However.... the DPS ramp up varied a lot between levels, so some were being killed faster, while others were taking twice as long. Frozen Maw in particular went from 7 seconds to a minute and a half.

Teq was a problem because of how the Burn phase works. Normally Teq takes normal damage with an average armor value. Phase 1 you just hammer away at him until you hit 75%, then the event goes in to Battery phase. Presuming that succeeds, the Mega laser fires, and Teq takes 5% damage and suffers from either a massive armor debuff or a large incoming damage multiplier. In either case, he takes a ton of extra power damage until he recovers. If he recovers, then the debuff expires, and he resumes attacking. This process repeats every 25% of his health until he dies. Now Teq's HP is tuned with those burn phases in mind, and is meant to take the majority of that damage during the Burn phase.

By doubling his HP, which is already purposely over tuned, they cut the effectiveness of power damage by half during a burn phase, and to a quarter outside of it. Since condi damage isn't affected by armor/dmgX, it offers better sustained damage outside of burn, but doesn't get any bonuses during it. So while the total DPS is higher due to the uncap, they doubled the DPS requirements to do a Burn through from phase 1 burn to phase 2 battery. Since power DPS wasn't changed, and Condi DPS doesn't get the damage bonus, the first day after the change, Groups were struggling to do a burn through, and got stuck having to fight Teq with his normal armor value for most of Phase 2, 3 and 4. While it wasn't impossible to win, it took nearly the entire length of the Meta timer to succeed. Not long after, they released another patch to adjust for the current damage distribution, and the event settled back into its normal routine.

[Eltiana.9420]

The best two open world events are Triple Trouble and Auric Basin imo (I can't speak for PoF metas as I have yet to really participate in any of them). Not only due they require group coordination, but they also required map coordination. They're also both really fun when you get the mechanics down and not overly difficult for people just jumping in and they they don't take forever ala Dragon's Stand. The problem with TD and DS metas are while sure, each path has its own mechanics, it doesn't really require map coordination beyond making each group has enough people. Obviously, both TT and AB use the 'each thing needs to die within x amount of time of each other', but I think there is definitely more space for this kind of meta design needing map coordination to be explored.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

> @"Ameepa.6793" said:

> > @"Dashiva.6149" said:

> > Maybe it is nostalgia, but I remember the Marionette meta being decently difficult in Open World, mostly because it required some detailed coordination and not just being a zergfest. I hope they bring it back in some way or form.

> >

> > The problem with Open World Bosses generally is that much of the difficulty disappears with large number of player and inconsequential death (players can WP and keep throwing their bodies in a short amount of time).

>

> Do you also remember that the marionette was doable only for about three days after release just because of that difficulty? It was a repeating theme with all s1 releases. The most hardcore completed the achies in the first three days and stopped doing them after that, and then the difficulty was too high for the rest to complete them.

>

> Which is what happens with too difficult content. Think for example Triple Wurms now and how restricted they are. You are not even allowed to join that without joining the communities organizing that. I'm not sure if that's a good thing either. Considerin for example how many people get to do the wurms daily versus how many get to do Istan meta daily.

>

>

 

Marionette existed during the pre mega server days, there were many servers (mine included) that didn't beat it until 15 or more days in and I'm sure there were a few smaller servers that never beat it.

 

I'd love to see what mega servers would do for that event, and the nostalgia factor would be awesome as well, but trust that not everyone beat it within the first 3 days last time, but if it were reintroduced, most everyone could this time and that would benefit both nostalgia hunters and the unlucky people that never got to experience a win at all whether for lack of people or lack of the game at the time.

[Grim West.3194]

An open world raid would be cool. Especially if it could kill every player and npc in the whole zone if it fails. (Don't awaken the Sleeper!). Maybe even burn the trees and melt the mountains for a day or so. That would be a lot of fun.

[Hevoskuuri.3891]

Instead of complaining about lack of difficult content while running around with a min/maxed meta build, take off your armor and run with green weapons. There's difficult content for ya!

[Dashiva.6149]

I wouldn't say I want harder content necessarily, because it attracts elitist players and becomes restrictive like Triple Wurm, but more _variety_. The worldbosses we have are cool, but they are all basically the same concept: break some form of barrier/portals/bar, then hit an object with a healthpool with a large target on it.

 

The reason I mentioned the Marionette earlier was that it was very different from other WB up until that point (and that has come after), which caused it to have its own set of challenges.

* It required some prep beforehand (enough people in each lane, Inform newer less experienced players about phases and Champion behavior).

* Defense phase,: preventing minions from slipping through, basically player zerg vs ai zerg.

* Arena phase: up to 25 people in a lane gets randomly split up into 5 groups and then are tasked with completing a certain task while the rest of the zerg holds the line.

* No obnoxious clock that ticks down, just a very clear win and lose condition not based on a huge healthpool.

 

This combined made it feel like a nice mix between Open World / Raid that I enjoyed. Of course it would have become easier over time like everything else.

Dragons Stand and Silverwastes might have some parallells but it is mostly mindless zerging for the most part without that level of detail required.

 

That said I wouldn't want it or new content like it to be as restrictive or hard as Triple Wurm. If that is a community or game problem however, that is a seperate debate I feel.

[pah.4931]

> @"Dashiva.6149" said:

> I wouldn't say I want harder content necessarily, because it attracts elitist players and becomes restrictive like Triple Wurm, but more _variety_. The worldbosses we have are cool, but they are all basically the same concept: break some form of barrier/portals/bar, then hit an object with a healthpool with a large target on it.

>

> The reason I mentioned the Marionette earlier was that it was very different from other WB up until that point (and that has come after), which caused it to have its own set of challenges.

> * It required some prep beforehand (enough people in each lane, Inform newer less experienced players about phases and Champion behavior).

> * Defense phase,: preventing minions from slipping through, basically player zerg vs ai zerg.

> * Arena phase: up to 25 people in a lane gets randomly split up into 5 groups and then are tasked with completing a certain task while the rest of the zerg holds the line.

> * No obnoxious clock that ticks down, just a very clear win and lose condition not based on a huge healthpool.

>

> This combined made it feel like a nice mix between Open World / Raid that I enjoyed. Of course it would have become easier over time like everything else.

> Dragons Stand and Silverwastes might have some parallells but it is mostly mindless zerging for the most part without that level of detail required.

>

> That said I wouldn't want it or new content like it to be as restrictive or hard as Triple Wurm. If that is a community or game problem however, that is a seperate debate I feel.

 

I think triple worm is a great example of why "more difficult open world content" is a bad idea. As someone who took a long break from the game, coming back to world bosses that are hard and, because of that, almost never run by enough people who care (since many already have achievements / mastery points) ... it's almost impossible to do these events. They fail more often than they succeed and then people stop doing them.

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> > @"Dashiva.6149" said:

> > I wouldn't say I want harder content necessarily, because it attracts elitist players and becomes restrictive like Triple Wurm, but more _variety_. The worldbosses we have are cool, but they are all basically the same concept: break some form of barrier/portals/bar, then hit an object with a healthpool with a large target on it.

> >

> > The reason I mentioned the Marionette earlier was that it was very different from other WB up until that point (and that has come after), which caused it to have its own set of challenges.

> > * It required some prep beforehand (enough people in each lane, Inform newer less experienced players about phases and Champion behavior).

> > * Defense phase,: preventing minions from slipping through, basically player zerg vs ai zerg.

> > * Arena phase: up to 25 people in a lane gets randomly split up into 5 groups and then are tasked with completing a certain task while the rest of the zerg holds the line.

> > * No obnoxious clock that ticks down, just a very clear win and lose condition not based on a huge healthpool.

> >

> > This combined made it feel like a nice mix between Open World / Raid that I enjoyed. Of course it would have become easier over time like everything else.

> > Dragons Stand and Silverwastes might have some parallells but it is mostly mindless zerging for the most part without that level of detail required.

> >

> > That said I wouldn't want it or new content like it to be as restrictive or hard as Triple Wurm. If that is a community or game problem however, that is a seperate debate I feel.

>

> I think triple worm is a great example of why "more difficult open world content" is a bad idea. As someone who took a long break from the game, coming back to world bosses that are hard and, because of that, almost never run by enough people who care (since many already have achievements / mastery points) ... it's almost impossible to do these events. They fail more often than they succeed and then people stop doing them.

 

Well the lack of equitable rewards compared to Teq may be a cause since I get rewarded better doing Teq. It also requires some coordination which is difficult when you have players that just do their own thing.

[Dashiva.6149]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

> > > @"Dashiva.6149" said:

> > > I wouldn't say I want harder content necessarily, because it attracts elitist players and becomes restrictive like Triple Wurm, but more _variety_. The worldbosses we have are cool, but they are all basically the same concept: break some form of barrier/portals/bar, then hit an object with a healthpool with a large target on it.

> > >

> > > The reason I mentioned the Marionette earlier was that it was very different from other WB up until that point (and that has come after), which caused it to have its own set of challenges.

> > > * It required some prep beforehand (enough people in each lane, Inform newer less experienced players about phases and Champion behavior).

> > > * Defense phase,: preventing minions from slipping through, basically player zerg vs ai zerg.

> > > * Arena phase: up to 25 people in a lane gets randomly split up into 5 groups and then are tasked with completing a certain task while the rest of the zerg holds the line.

> > > * No obnoxious clock that ticks down, just a very clear win and lose condition not based on a huge healthpool.

> > >

> > > This combined made it feel like a nice mix between Open World / Raid that I enjoyed. Of course it would have become easier over time like everything else.

> > > Dragons Stand and Silverwastes might have some parallells but it is mostly mindless zerging for the most part without that level of detail required.

> > >

> > > That said I wouldn't want it or new content like it to be as restrictive or hard as Triple Wurm. If that is a community or game problem however, that is a seperate debate I feel.

> >

> > I think triple worm is a great example of why "more difficult open world content" is a bad idea. As someone who took a long break from the game, coming back to world bosses that are hard and, because of that, almost never run by enough people who care (since many already have achievements / mastery points) ... it's almost impossible to do these events. They fail more often than they succeed and then people stop doing them.

>

> Well the lack of equitable rewards compared to Teq may be a cause since I get rewarded better doing Teq. It also requires some coordination which is difficult when you have players that just do their own thing.

 

And yet we are able to do Tarir meta, which also requires some form of coordination, with minimal communication these days. Although I agree the rewards (or lack thereof) is a big factor.

[zombyturtle.5980]

I think OP needs to clarify his post abit. I assume what he wants is open world content that requires coordination, splitting of groups and difficulty that makes it necessary to have some basic organizing, but not raid level. (similar to AUric basin and Tangled depths, not like triple trouble), rather than just harder content in general which most people dont want.

 

I think its also really important to have appropriate rewards that justify the time and difficulty of the content, but arent over the top like istans have been.

 

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"Dashiva.6149" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"pah.4931" said:

> > > > @"Dashiva.6149" said:

> > > > I wouldn't say I want harder content necessarily, because it attracts elitist players and becomes restrictive like Triple Wurm, but more _variety_. The worldbosses we have are cool, but they are all basically the same concept: break some form of barrier/portals/bar, then hit an object with a healthpool with a large target on it.

> > > >

> > > > The reason I mentioned the Marionette earlier was that it was very different from other WB up until that point (and that has come after), which caused it to have its own set of challenges.

> > > > * It required some prep beforehand (enough people in each lane, Inform newer less experienced players about phases and Champion behavior).

> > > > * Defense phase,: preventing minions from slipping through, basically player zerg vs ai zerg.

> > > > * Arena phase: up to 25 people in a lane gets randomly split up into 5 groups and then are tasked with completing a certain task while the rest of the zerg holds the line.

> > > > * No obnoxious clock that ticks down, just a very clear win and lose condition not based on a huge healthpool.

> > > >

> > > > This combined made it feel like a nice mix between Open World / Raid that I enjoyed. Of course it would have become easier over time like everything else.

> > > > Dragons Stand and Silverwastes might have some parallells but it is mostly mindless zerging for the most part without that level of detail required.

> > > >

> > > > That said I wouldn't want it or new content like it to be as restrictive or hard as Triple Wurm. If that is a community or game problem however, that is a seperate debate I feel.

> > >

> > > I think triple worm is a great example of why "more difficult open world content" is a bad idea. As someone who took a long break from the game, coming back to world bosses that are hard and, because of that, almost never run by enough people who care (since many already have achievements / mastery points) ... it's almost impossible to do these events. They fail more often than they succeed and then people stop doing them.

> >

> > Well the lack of equitable rewards compared to Teq may be a cause since I get rewarded better doing Teq. It also requires some coordination which is difficult when you have players that just do their own thing.

>

> And yet we are able to do Tarir meta, which also requires some form of coordination, with minimal communication these days. Although I agree the rewards (or lack thereof) is a big factor.

 

Yeah. I think lack of rewards is probably the bigger factor as I doing see triple wurm being any more difficult (mechanics wise) than HoT metas.

[Jasmine.8195]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> First people says content is too hard then now its too easy cant people just decide

 

No, because people have opinions and are not a unified borg collective. For me the content is perfect with just the right amount of hard when I ask for it via challenge modes, group metas, fractals, and certain jump puzzles.

[Biff.5312]

I'd like to see more of a mix. They don't have to make everything harder, but it would be nice to have SOME real challenges. Also when solo-playing it would be nice if there were more champions you could kill that aren't either too easy or simply impossible to solo. On the whole though, this MMO is better than most in those terms. Most games are nerfed to the point where a small child can win every encounter, in order to draw subscribers from an increasingly young pool. GW2 is the best I've played in terms of providing some difficulty if you want to seek it out.

[Silencio.2604]

Yeah any time I'm doing pve content in big groups I feel like falling asleep. Did tequatl get scaled down or did we get stronger and they need to scale it up? I've been away for a long time so..

It feels like most things only scale up to 20 person group or something. After doing it all for a while I just feel like I can't be bothered with doing it anymore, no challenge makes it feel like work. It's like trying to hit mobs and do enough damage for it to count before they are evaporated.

[Aerlen.5326]

No.

No.

No.

No.

 

People like you have made this game a living hell for those of us who are skilled but who either have some disability or don't care to play "I Want To Be The Guy" every time Anet creates new content. I blame people like you for HoT being a ridiculous mess and "Hearts and Minds" being stupid hard and all the garbage "artificial difficulty" in Living World Season 3. This game already has challenges for most players - the problem is the high tier elites find exploits, bugs, and ways to cheese it or they just do it so many times that it becomes easy and then they cry and cry and cry for more things while the rest of us are either ticked off, can't do it, gave up, or are still finding it challenging.

 

You have raids and high tier fractals. Go do them in green gear.

[Albadaran.1283]

More difficult open world events for huge groups is a bad idea. Alternatively Anet could add new guild events with high difficulty level. I like the way PoF and HoT combine open world discovery and hard content. Players who found HoT too hard now return better prepared after playing PoF. No need to change that. So, again, as for teamplay, add new Guild content.