Elusive Mind

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Retsuko.2035" said:

> What if you fight someone that doesn't do any hard cc's ? the stun break on elusive mind will be useless. Surely you can use it still to cleanse, but lets say you get immobilized, you need to dodge to trigger the cleanse instead of using the dodge what it's originally intended for (avoid damage), making you more vulnerable.

>

> I think people really forget about the repercussions of using a dodge and only look at the advantage elusive mind brings, while people forget that elusive mind can be "over used", putting more risk at the mirage. But i guess people still need to figure out how to fight a mirage.

 

Yeah agreed.

 

The more I think about EM, the more I'm coming around the the view that it's kind of ok. The condi cleanse is certainly fine, and you do give up a hell of a lot when thinking about IH and Dune cloak in order to get the stunbreak. Even then, is it really such a big deal to be able to break hard cc on dodge? Given the state of gw2 combat - ie fast paced, low ttk, I don't think it's game breaking for one elite profession to be very hard to pin down.

 

What's gamebreaking is being hard to pin down combined with the burst damage output - and personally I'd rather sacrifice some of the burst to retain the elusiveness.

 

For example I think if Sword Ambush was nerfed to requiring a target, and then some confusion shaved of Jaunt plus the whole Ineptitude/BD/shatters/ambush/RiddleofSand thing, mirage would be reigned in somewhat. Do that first then see how EM is performing.

[schloumou.3982]

Give up Ori :( GW2 players dont want to time dodges, position themselves correctly or be confronted with their misplays in any form. They need to be able to stunbreak at any point... multiple times. Condi Mirage is the epitome of risk vs reward.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> Why would you ever use Elusive Mind? You lose tons of DPS from not using either of the other two traits. And as far as I know there's few encounters where it is on you to cleanse yourself, and even in raids few things ever CC you much.

 

Lol pvE Player found

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Simonoly.4352" said:

> > It could be worse. Elusive Mind could be like one of the many traits on other classes that automatically breaks stun for you or just gives you stability for sort of..existing and maybe even does some damage.

> >

> > At first I was pretty much on board with "Elusive Mind is super OP" but the more I play my other classes that have CC immunity coming out of their ears, the less on board I am with an Elusive Mind nerf.

> >

> > I've actually stopped using it now. Blink + signet of Midnight is enough stunbreaks. Then just taking Mantra of Resolve provides you with a ton of condi clear now. I like that there's build flexibility with Elusive Mind - if I want to take some more interesting utilities other than the standard two stunbreaks to mix things up I can still at least expend my endurance for breaking stun. Although relying on Elusive Mind as a sole source of stunbreak is quite risky.

>

> Soooo arguments like this really get to me. Saying that "Elusive Mind isn't OP because its on the same level as other things that are just as OP" isn't a rational argument. EM is absolutely atrocious levels of powercreep.

>

> Compare EM to HoT specs and how much resistance to CC they have. Its leagues ahead. And remember that HoT specs, even after being toned down significantly, are still better than core specs are for the most part. Just because PoF and some aspects of HoT specs are also ridiculously overpowered does not make EM balanced.

>

> Look at it this way: EM offers a stunbreak and a condi cleanse. The condi cleanse is nice, and honestly fairly powerful but not strong enough to be a GM on its own. It also feels like nothing because of how many condis are spat out by all specs right now. The stunbreak is significantly more powerful. Most stunbreaks in GW2 are 25s CD+, with the majority being 30sec CDs or more afaik. These are skills, which should be stronger than individual traits that you can take. Even if vigor didn't exist in the game at all, elusive mind averages out to 1 stunbreak every 10 seconds. With permanent vigor, which mesmer can upkeep, it averages out to 1 stunbreak every 5 seconds. This ranges from 2.5 to 5+ times more stunbreaks per time period than any other stunbreak skill in the game. And its on a trait, that also has more tacked onto it.

>

> Yes, if played properly a mirage does not need EM to avoid being stunlocked, since clever use of the other stunbreaks on the bar, along with positioning and mirage cloak to evade stuns, will make you nearly immune to stuns in the first place. So already the need for this trait is pulled into question anyway, but then we get it anyway and its far stronger than any stunbreak that exists in the game. How can you honestly claim that's balanced?

>

> Are specs in the game throwing out entirely too much hard CC at the moment? OhYes! Absolutely! That does not make EM balanced though. It just means that everything needs to be toned down.

 

Pure stunbreak is worth 10 sec CD as solo skill - aka the berserker stun break skill. - 10 second cooldown.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"schloumou.3982" said:

> Give up Ori :( GW2 players dont want to time dodges, position themselves correctly or be confronted with their misplays in any form. They need to be able to stunbreak at any point... multiple times. Condi Mirage is the epitome of risk vs reward.

 

That's been the case for a *long* time on many builds over many classes. Even before HoT you could pick out a number of easy to play core builds.

 

Gw2 is not a game for that kind of precision, and I doubt any kind of drastic sweeping changes will ever occur to shift it into that. So on that note why not have flavourful stuff even if it includes/promotes casual gameplay.

 

In any case I'm not opposed to slapping a 10s ICD on the stunbreak only (not the Condi cleanse because the Condi cleanse is fine), providing there is a very clear visual indicator on the UI as to when it is off/on cooldown.

[FaboBabo.3581]

Let me get this straight.

 

CC powercreep is the question.

EM is the answer.

 

If you Want to Change the answer, you have to Change your question.

 

A stunbreak every 5 seconds is NOT op, when you get stunned every 2 seconds. (:

[Carighan.6758]

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> A stunbreak every 5 seconds is NOT op, when you get stunned every 2 seconds. (:

 

Exactly this, but I think the previous time I alluded to this was too ambigious (that was the "PvE player found"-comment above, because in fact PvE doesn't keep you stunlocked from 100% to 0%).

 

But yeah, the **real** problem is the same one as when people complain about condi spam or short TTL: **power creep**.

 

The game has changed massively since release, everything dies near-instantly nowadays and things are spammed to kingdom come. Few skills come without 2-5 extra effects stapled on, and that's before traits, sigils and runes. Afterwards, your condi bar will fill up from a single skill hit, nevermind the 2 soft-CC + 1 hard-CC the same skill applied.

 

And **that** is the real problem. The escalation. As CC becomes more and more spammable and readily available, counter-CC has to keep up, especially on a spec which foregoes their ability to dodge for offensive use. As condi cleansing becomes more and more prevalent, conditions have to become more and more spammable which in turn devastates anyone caught with their cleanses down.

 

The whole game could use... I dunno... a 50% nerf? :tongue:

[Abelisk.4527]

The whole game could use a 50% nerf, yes please. Raids will be more challenging, more build possibilities, less extremes in PVP/WVW paving way for build diversity, among others.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> > @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > A stunbreak every 5 seconds is NOT op, when you get stunned every 2 seconds. (:

>

> Exactly this, but I think the previous time I alluded to this was too ambigious (that was the "PvE player found"-comment above, because in fact PvE doesn't keep you stunlocked from 100% to 0%).

>

> But yeah, the **real** problem is the same one as when people complain about condi spam or short TTL: **power creep**.

>

> The game has changed massively since release, everything dies near-instantly nowadays and things are spammed to kingdom come. Few skills come without 2-5 extra effects stapled on, and that's before traits, sigils and runes. Afterwards, your condi bar will fill up from a single skill hit, nevermind the 2 soft-CC + 1 hard-CC the same skill applied.

>

> And **that** is the real problem. The escalation. As CC becomes more and more spammable and readily available, counter-CC has to keep up, especially on a spec which foregoes their ability to dodge for offensive use. As condi cleansing becomes more and more prevalent, conditions have to become more and more spammable which in turn devastates anyone caught with their cleanses down.

>

> The whole game could use... I dunno... a 50% nerf? :tongue:

 

Exactly.

 

Less one hit abilitys. Less condi stacks. Less CC.

 

Condis should tick for a maximum of 3-4 k ( combi of all condis). Autohits should not be able to do 6-8k damage.

 

 

I mean like Really ; 7k damage autohit?

 

 

Im cool with nerfing the burst of condis if we nerf the one shot autoattacks too.

 

 

Nerf the whole Game.

 

 

[schloumou.3982]

> @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

 

> A stunbreak every 5 seconds is NOT op, when you get stunned every 2 seconds. (:

 

Exactly. Its clearly the games fault when you eat a stun every 2 seconds.

 

 

[Arlette.9684]

An across the board damage reduction to all sources of damage sounds reasonable. 50% is a bit extreme but 33-40 might hit the sweet spot.

 

However healing should also be nerfed by 20% or so to prevent bunker regen specs from establishin a new meta.

[Xstein.2187]

> @"schloumou.3982" said:

> > @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

>

> > A stunbreak every 5 seconds is NOT op, when you get stunned every 2 seconds. (:

>

> Exactly. Its clearly the games fault when you eat a stun every 2 seconds.

>

>

Its also apparently the players fault when traits or skills are added the the game that can apply cc at a faster rate then previously in the game's history.

 

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @"schloumou.3982" said:

> > @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

>

> > A stunbreak every 5 seconds is NOT op, when you get stunned every 2 seconds. (:

>

> Exactly. Its clearly the games fault when you eat a stun every 2 seconds.

>

>

 

Clearly my fault because i didn't dodged every 2 seconds.

 

 

Bro this is not the Daredevil Forum...

[schloumou.3982]

Please link me a build that is able to provide that amount of hard CC.

[Xstein.2187]

> @"schloumou.3982" said:

> Please link me a build that is able to provide that amount of hard CC.

 

He didn't say that one build was doing the CCing. Its clearly possible to get Ccd every 2 seconds against multiple opponents. However, just for fun, lets look at a build. Spellbreaker can now CC for 2 sec every 12 sec with Disrupting stab and CC with full counter every 8 sec.

These two skills alone make it possible to CC twice every 12 sec, or once per 6 sec.

Note, this is one build and does not include other classes that may try to CC you. It also does not include other CCs available to the spellbreaker like shield bash.

 

Now, I did not throw the 2 sec number into the mix (even though with multiple opponents it is easily possible). Instead, I am going to go back to Elusive Mind.

Elusive Mind gives you a stun break every 10 sec without vigor.

10 < 6

If we assume permanent vigor, Elusive Mind allows a stun break every 6.6666 sec.

6.6666 < 6

 

Therefore, even if we assume permanent vigor, a spell breaker can still CC at a faster rate than a mirage with Elusive Mind can stun break.

 

 

 

 

[schloumou.3982]

> @"Xstein.2187" said:

> > @"schloumou.3982" said:

> > Please link me a build that is able to provide that amount of hard CC.

>

> He didn't say that one build was doing the CCing. Its clearly possible to get Ccd every 2 seconds against multiple opponents. However, just for fun, lets look at a build. Spellbreaker can now CC for 2 sec every 12 sec with Disrupting stab and CC with full counter every 8 sec.

> These two skills alone make it possible to CC twice every 12 sec, or once per 6 sec.

> Note, this is one build and does not include other classes that may try to CC you. It also does not include other CCs available to the spellbreaker like shield bash.

>

> Now, I did not throw the 2 sec number into the mix (even though with multiple opponents it is easily possible). Instead, I am going to go back to Elusive Mind.

> Elusive Mind gives you a stun break every 10 sec without vigor.

> 10 < 6

> If we assume permanent vigor, Elusive Mind allows a stun break every 6.6666 sec.

> 6.6666 < 6

>

> Therefore, even if we assume permanent vigor, a spell breaker can still CC at a faster rate than a mirage with Elusive Mind can stun break.

>

>

>

>

 

Ok, keep stunbreaking the 0,5 sec daze of Full Counter. This trait is indeed underpowered if you want to fight the whole enemy team alone. My apologies.

I shouldnt have posted in this threat in the first place since i dont really have anything profound to add to the proposal. I just felt a bit sorry for Ori earning nothing but grieving over his attempt to improve balance. So i will leave it from here. Have fun.

[Xstein.2187]

> @"schloumou.3982" said:

> > @"Xstein.2187" said:

> > > @"schloumou.3982" said:

> > > Please link me a build that is able to provide that amount of hard CC.

> >

> > He didn't say that one build was doing the CCing. Its clearly possible to get Ccd every 2 seconds against multiple opponents. However, just for fun, lets look at a build. Spellbreaker can now CC for 2 sec every 12 sec with Disrupting stab and CC with full counter every 8 sec.

> > These two skills alone make it possible to CC twice every 12 sec, or once per 6 sec.

> > Note, this is one build and does not include other classes that may try to CC you. It also does not include other CCs available to the spellbreaker like shield bash.

> >

> > Now, I did not throw the 2 sec number into the mix (even though with multiple opponents it is easily possible). Instead, I am going to go back to Elusive Mind.

> > Elusive Mind gives you a stun break every 10 sec without vigor.

> > 10 < 6

> > If we assume permanent vigor, Elusive Mind allows a stun break every 6.6666 sec.

> > 6.6666 < 6

> >

> > Therefore, even if we assume permanent vigor, a spell breaker can still CC at a faster rate than a mirage with Elusive Mind can stun break.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> Ok, keep stunbreaking the 0,5 sec daze of Full Counter. This trait is indeed underpowered if you want to fight the whole enemy team alone. My apologies.

> I shouldnt have posted in this threat in the first place since i dont really have anything profound to add to the proposal. I just felt a bit sorry for Ori earning nothing but grieving over his attempt to improve balance. So i will leave it from here. Have fun.

 

Just thought I would say I never said mirage should be balanced against the 2 sec CC number. I also never said that mirage should be balanced against multiple opponents. All I did was compare EM to CC class on class and explain why FaboBabo wasn't necessarily wrong with his statement. I also realize Ori is trying to improve balance. I want improved balance as well. I don't have anything against people trying to improve balance in this game. However, I also don't have anything against people who state their opinions when they believe a proposed way to balance the game is wrong. As I stated in my first post on this topic, I just don't believe EM is the right starting point. Yes, full counter is only a .5 sec daze. However, the reality is if we add an internal cool down to the stun break portion of EM, if you dodge while your have that daze, you are going to have to wait for another internal cool down. And as people have pointed out here already, dodging isn't just used for stun break on mirage. Its also used for . . . . wellllll dodging. If you had permanent vigor and somehow timed it so you spent only half your dodges for dodging attacks and saved the other half just to stun break, the skill 'disrupting stab' alone would overcome your stun breaks.

6.66 x 2 = 13.3333

Disrupting stab = 2 second stun every 12 sec

13.333 >12

And I would hardly make fun of a 2 sec stun.

[FaboBabo.3581]

"Stunned every 2 seconds" is a saying, not the Reality.

 

Sometimes You dont need stunbreaks at all, sometimes you can't move.

 

Yep mostly those "stun every 2 sec" - scenarios are when outnumbered, but Mirage is a spec which should be able to disengage outnumbered fights when needed. Therefore we have EM.

 

 

Reduce Damage + Cc + Condi stacks overall and im happy to see EM changed.

 

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

Oh this is great, people trying to defend EM. The delusions are real, pretty sure most of the people defending EM said old UC was OP. Smh

[tartarus.1082]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> Oh this is great, people trying to defend EM. The delusions are real, pretty sure most of the people defending EM said old UC was OP. Smh

 

Nobody is really defending EM though most of the discussion seems to be around the idea of big picture imbalance which can be described as excesses

 

Excess stuns vs excess breaks

 

Excess cleanse vs excess condi bombs

 

Excess sustain vs excess damage and burst

 

And such most of the posts seem to agree that em is a bad trait but that CC in general needs reduced.

 

[Curunen.8729]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> Oh this is great, people trying to defend EM. The delusions are real, pretty sure most of the people defending EM said old UC was OP. Smh

 

Actually I've stated on more than one occasion that I think UC was unjustly and excessively nerfed, so please don't bring that one sided bias in here.

[PierPiero.9142]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"raynn.9254" said:

> > > @"Miroe.2054" said:

> > > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > > It needs to be changed. If you can't see that then I'm not at all sorry to say that you won't be contributing anything of value to this discussion.

> > >

> > > Well let me surpise you then. I don't think elusive mind should be changed at all. If the issue is that there is no real choice between infinite horizon and elusive mind, a solution could also be a change to infinite horizon or to the ambushes of clones.

> >

> > The reason EM should be changed is sPvP. It's insanely overpowered in that context.

> > As to the trait itself, I would much rather see the stunbreak replaced by either stronger condi cleanse or increase in duration of the mirage cloak by let's say 30%.

>

> Also WvW. To add most players complain about 2 things with mirage, the constant condition application and spikes of confusion but also that they cannot pin a mirage down. I’ve seen a lot of people say they don’t mind the damage but that you can’t stun them to set up for damage as they have stunbreak on dodge and 2 more as well as decent condition cleansing from jaunt and EM.

>

> Basically condi mirage is in a similar state as daredevil was in, maybe a few less dodges, but many people said it was too strong then so they can’t say condi mirage isn’t now.

 

In my opinion for wvw, also roaming power mirage is better than condi .... but it is a personal choice. Perhaps in 1vs 1 condi is stronger but in wvw the fight is not on a point so you can take more distance and condi mesmer is not that strong if attached from range. Other then this many pof class has great mobility and from range , for me , gs is better than staff and scepter ( i find scepter trash becouse scepter 2 is easy to predict, clone generation is bad ( you have hit 3 times ) and only scepter 3 for me is good) . I consider staff much better than GS for staff 2 but staff is really strong only if you are near the target , it is not a true range weapon as GS ( at least the autoattack , gs2 and gs 4) and this is a great advantages in an open fight . (For spvp it is all another story becouse the fight is around a point ... )

[Master Ketsu.4569]

**"Using a healing skill breaks stun, dodging removes 1 condition and heals you for 133 (0.07) health"**

 

Trait is still worth taking since it provides sustain. No longer a massive get out of jail free for stuns.

 

 

[Xstein.2187]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> **"Using a healing skill breaks stun, dodging removes 1 condition and heals you for 133 (0.07) health"**

>

> Trait is still worth taking since it provides sustain. No longer a massive get out of jail free for stuns.

>

>

This would pretty much put stun break on a 10 sec cool down, but only by making mantra of recovery mandetory, ultimately cutting down on build diversity.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> **"Using a healing skill breaks stun, dodging removes 1 condition and heals you for 133 (0.07) health"**

>

> Trait is still worth taking since it provides sustain. No longer a massive get out of jail free for stuns.

>

>

 

I'd be cool with that (rubs hands together ;) )