So... regarding Distortion

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > Have you considered, that maybe, just maybe, Anet didn't want whole groups of players to ignore a multitude of different boss mechanics (mechanics raid devs spent a lot of time devising) with a single click?

> > > Perhaps you might now need to actually learn to run greens or jump the waves, or manage your damage in order to not be killed by Gorse retal

> > > (oh, who i am kidding, i'm sure alternative methods are already devised)

> >

> > Have you considered that using the single click is a risk? Basically you trust your chrono to have proper timing. If he does, you get rewarded, if he doesn't you get punished. It's a fair trade.

> Sure it's a risk. Doing the mechanics the intended way is also a risk (because you can fail them). Pushing the responsibility on chrono minimizes the risk, as only one person (well, one per subgroup) needs to get it right, instead of the whole group.

> You'd be surprised how many players were either completely unaware of some of the boss mechanics, or were unable to cope with them because up to now they were always depending on someone else to take care of those.

>

> That actually promoted _less_ skilled play.

>

>

 

It's less skill on an individual level. But it's teamplay. It's playing *with* others, as opposed to playing *next to* others. So it is ultimately better gameplay.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > Have you considered, that maybe, just maybe, Anet didn't want whole groups of players to ignore a multitude of different boss mechanics (mechanics raid devs spent a lot of time devising) with a single click?

> > > > Perhaps you might now need to actually learn to run greens or jump the waves, or manage your damage in order to not be killed by Gorse retal

> > > > (oh, who i am kidding, i'm sure alternative methods are already devised)

> > >

> > > Have you considered that using the single click is a risk? Basically you trust your chrono to have proper timing. If he does, you get rewarded, if he doesn't you get punished. It's a fair trade.

> > Sure it's a risk. Doing the mechanics the intended way is also a risk (because you can fail them). Pushing the responsibility on chrono minimizes the risk, as only one person (well, one per subgroup) needs to get it right, instead of the whole group.

> > You'd be surprised how many players were either completely unaware of some of the boss mechanics, or were unable to cope with them because up to now they were always depending on someone else to take care of those.

> >

> > That actually promoted _less_ skilled play.

> >

> >

>

> It's less skill on an individual level. But it's teamplay. It's playing *with* others, as opposed to playing *next to* others. So it is ultimately better gameplay.

 

I'm torn on this.

 

I'm not happy with the change (especially since now we get distorted and everyone else gets aegis which makes things even weirder), but I was getting tired that 8 out of 10 people could basically not know mechanics for some fights. The reason I'm disappointed with the change is mostly because the amount of fights this truly affected was 2 (VG and Gorse) at best with VG green skips being the most significant. Every other fight was slightly speed up but no drastic mechanics were skipped.

 

The biggest reason for change is that now theoretically chrono could be replaced (which it already could for most compositions but people are lazy to try out new things). Saying theoretically because practically I doubt this will happen making this change even more idiotic but who knows what future nerfs are in store for chrono.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > Have you considered, that maybe, just maybe, Anet didn't want whole groups of players to ignore a multitude of different boss mechanics (mechanics raid devs spent a lot of time devising) with a single click?

> > > > > Perhaps you might now need to actually learn to run greens or jump the waves, or manage your damage in order to not be killed by Gorse retal

> > > > > (oh, who i am kidding, i'm sure alternative methods are already devised)

> > > >

> > > > Have you considered that using the single click is a risk? Basically you trust your chrono to have proper timing. If he does, you get rewarded, if he doesn't you get punished. It's a fair trade.

> > > Sure it's a risk. Doing the mechanics the intended way is also a risk (because you can fail them). Pushing the responsibility on chrono minimizes the risk, as only one person (well, one per subgroup) needs to get it right, instead of the whole group.

> > > You'd be surprised how many players were either completely unaware of some of the boss mechanics, or were unable to cope with them because up to now they were always depending on someone else to take care of those.

> > >

> > > That actually promoted _less_ skilled play.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > It's less skill on an individual level. But it's teamplay. It's playing *with* others, as opposed to playing *next to* others. So it is ultimately better gameplay.

>

> I'm torn on this.

>

> I'm not happy with the change (especially since now we get distorted and everyone else gets aegis which makes things even weirder), but I was getting tired that 8 out of 10 people could basically not know mechanics for some fights. The reason I'm disappointed with the change is mostly because the amount of fights this truly affected was 2 (VG and Gorse) at best with VG green skips being the most significant. Every other fight was slightly speed up but no drastic mechanics were skipped.

>

> The biggest reason for change is that now theoretically chrono could be replaced (which it already could for most compositions but people are lazy to try out new things). Saying theoretically because practically I doubt this will happen making this change even more idiotic but who knows what future nerfs are in store for chrono.

 

I'm not sure 8/10 people not knowing the mechanics is a realistic scenario. Sure, in theory you could do that. But it would take an already experienced group with excellent chronos which gets progressively replaced until none of the original roster, barring the chronos, remain in it. My point is, every more or less static group started with the basics, nailed them down and only later got to the point where chronos sped up the process by distorting. For the record, in my static we never distorted greens on VG and Gorse retal. Guess people just didn't see the point of it - we already have the routine and it seemed like an unnecessary effort to practice these, so we just stuck with what was working.

 

As for the theoretical alternatives - yeah, there's that. A Firebrand can now (in theory) share Aegis + Stab while supplying quickness and reasonable dps. But the problem is, you end up needing two specific builds instead of one to supply two vital buffs. And the one specific build is already abundant around, so what's the point? If Firebrand+Renegade clearly outperform Chrono+dps (or heck, even chrono+druid), it might end up used by the big boys and end up in the meta. But support Renegade feels a bit fiddly to me, as if it tries to do a bit too much and it makes it not as reliable. We'll see.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > Have you considered, that maybe, just maybe, Anet didn't want whole groups of players to ignore a multitude of different boss mechanics (mechanics raid devs spent a lot of time devising) with a single click?

> > > > > Perhaps you might now need to actually learn to run greens or jump the waves, or manage your damage in order to not be killed by Gorse retal

> > > > > (oh, who i am kidding, i'm sure alternative methods are already devised)

> > > >

> > > > Have you considered that using the single click is a risk? Basically you trust your chrono to have proper timing. If he does, you get rewarded, if he doesn't you get punished. It's a fair trade.

> > > Sure it's a risk. Doing the mechanics the intended way is also a risk (because you can fail them). Pushing the responsibility on chrono minimizes the risk, as only one person (well, one per subgroup) needs to get it right, instead of the whole group.

> > > You'd be surprised how many players were either completely unaware of some of the boss mechanics, or were unable to cope with them because up to now they were always depending on someone else to take care of those.

> > >

> > > That actually promoted _less_ skilled play.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > It's less skill on an individual level. But it's teamplay. It's playing *with* others, as opposed to playing *next to* others. So it is ultimately better gameplay.

>

> I'm torn on this.

>

> I'm not happy with the change (especially since now we get distorted and everyone else gets aegis which makes things even weirder), but I was getting tired that 8 out of 10 people could basically not know mechanics for some fights. The reason I'm disappointed with the change is mostly because the amount of fights this truly affected was 2 (VG and Gorse) at best with VG green skips being the most significant. Every other fight was slightly speed up but no drastic mechanics were skipped.

>

> The biggest reason for change is that now theoretically chrono could be replaced (which it already could for most compositions but people are lazy to try out new things). Saying theoretically because practically I doubt this will happen making this change even more idiotic but who knows what future nerfs are in store for chrono.

 

I´m glad that they changed distortion sharing.

While i do not agree with how they´ve changed it, i think its a step in the right direction.

 

Giving Invuln to 5 other players was way to strong.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > Have you considered, that maybe, just maybe, Anet didn't want whole groups of players to ignore a multitude of different boss mechanics (mechanics raid devs spent a lot of time devising) with a single click?

> > > > > > Perhaps you might now need to actually learn to run greens or jump the waves, or manage your damage in order to not be killed by Gorse retal

> > > > > > (oh, who i am kidding, i'm sure alternative methods are already devised)

> > > > >

> > > > > Have you considered that using the single click is a risk? Basically you trust your chrono to have proper timing. If he does, you get rewarded, if he doesn't you get punished. It's a fair trade.

> > > > Sure it's a risk. Doing the mechanics the intended way is also a risk (because you can fail them). Pushing the responsibility on chrono minimizes the risk, as only one person (well, one per subgroup) needs to get it right, instead of the whole group.

> > > > You'd be surprised how many players were either completely unaware of some of the boss mechanics, or were unable to cope with them because up to now they were always depending on someone else to take care of those.

> > > >

> > > > That actually promoted _less_ skilled play.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > It's less skill on an individual level. But it's teamplay. It's playing *with* others, as opposed to playing *next to* others. So it is ultimately better gameplay.

> >

> > I'm torn on this.

> >

> > I'm not happy with the change (especially since now we get distorted and everyone else gets aegis which makes things even weirder), but I was getting tired that 8 out of 10 people could basically not know mechanics for some fights. The reason I'm disappointed with the change is mostly because the amount of fights this truly affected was 2 (VG and Gorse) at best with VG green skips being the most significant. Every other fight was slightly speed up but no drastic mechanics were skipped.

> >

> > The biggest reason for change is that now theoretically chrono could be replaced (which it already could for most compositions but people are lazy to try out new things). Saying theoretically because practically I doubt this will happen making this change even more idiotic but who knows what future nerfs are in store for chrono.

>

> I'm not sure 8/10 people not knowing the mechanics is a realistic scenario. Sure, in theory you could do that. But it would take an already experienced group with excellent chronos which gets progressively replaced until none of the original roster, barring the chronos, remain in it. My point is, every more or less static group started with the basics, nailed them down and only later got to the point where chronos sped up the process by distorting. For the record, in my static we never distorted greens on VG and Gorse retal. Guess people just didn't see the point of it - we already have the routine and it seemed like an unnecessary effort to practice these, so we just stuck with what was working.

>

> As for the theoretical alternatives - yeah, there's that. A Firebrand can now (in theory) share Aegis + Stab while supplying quickness and reasonable dps. But the problem is, you end up needing two specific builds instead of one to supply two vital buffs. And the one specific build is already abundant around, so what's the point? If Firebrand+Renegade clearly outperform Chrono+dps (or heck, even chrono+druid), it might end up used by the big boys and end up in the meta. But support Renegade feels a bit fiddly to me, as if it tries to do a bit too much and it makes it not as reliable. We'll see.

 

You are looking at this from a static perspective. I'm looking at it from a PUG perspective (since my static fell apart 8 weeks ago I've been chrono tanking full clears weekly).

 

The skill some people bring at 250 or even 400+ LI (askinf for more just becomes silly eventually) is sometimes scary bad. I'm talking people who completely panic if something goes wrong due to lack of encounter understanding besides the "everything goes according to plan rotation". This is especially true on wing bosses where many PUGs will:

 

- not volunteer for canons on Sabetha (the easiest wing boss) and not throw properly

- go retard mode on Matthias because mechanics be hard

- don't clear shards at Xera so I can pull her out even after caps lock "screaming" to clear a specific marker

- dodging Deimos smash, not stepping into black, picking up tears, avoiding hands if a phase is messy

- cover distort for aegis on deimos was almost required because tear pickup is usually bad

 

The amount of carry one was able to do with a single chrono was both liberating (because I had it in my hand to make sure the wing/raid succeeded even if idiots were present) and annoying/taxing because of all the extra work.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > > Have you considered, that maybe, just maybe, Anet didn't want whole groups of players to ignore a multitude of different boss mechanics (mechanics raid devs spent a lot of time devising) with a single click?

> > > > > > > Perhaps you might now need to actually learn to run greens or jump the waves, or manage your damage in order to not be killed by Gorse retal

> > > > > > > (oh, who i am kidding, i'm sure alternative methods are already devised)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Have you considered that using the single click is a risk? Basically you trust your chrono to have proper timing. If he does, you get rewarded, if he doesn't you get punished. It's a fair trade.

> > > > > Sure it's a risk. Doing the mechanics the intended way is also a risk (because you can fail them). Pushing the responsibility on chrono minimizes the risk, as only one person (well, one per subgroup) needs to get it right, instead of the whole group.

> > > > > You'd be surprised how many players were either completely unaware of some of the boss mechanics, or were unable to cope with them because up to now they were always depending on someone else to take care of those.

> > > > >

> > > > > That actually promoted _less_ skilled play.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > It's less skill on an individual level. But it's teamplay. It's playing *with* others, as opposed to playing *next to* others. So it is ultimately better gameplay.

> > >

> > > I'm torn on this.

> > >

> > > I'm not happy with the change (especially since now we get distorted and everyone else gets aegis which makes things even weirder), but I was getting tired that 8 out of 10 people could basically not know mechanics for some fights. The reason I'm disappointed with the change is mostly because the amount of fights this truly affected was 2 (VG and Gorse) at best with VG green skips being the most significant. Every other fight was slightly speed up but no drastic mechanics were skipped.

> > >

> > > The biggest reason for change is that now theoretically chrono could be replaced (which it already could for most compositions but people are lazy to try out new things). Saying theoretically because practically I doubt this will happen making this change even more idiotic but who knows what future nerfs are in store for chrono.

> >

> > I'm not sure 8/10 people not knowing the mechanics is a realistic scenario. Sure, in theory you could do that. But it would take an already experienced group with excellent chronos which gets progressively replaced until none of the original roster, barring the chronos, remain in it. My point is, every more or less static group started with the basics, nailed them down and only later got to the point where chronos sped up the process by distorting. For the record, in my static we never distorted greens on VG and Gorse retal. Guess people just didn't see the point of it - we already have the routine and it seemed like an unnecessary effort to practice these, so we just stuck with what was working.

> >

> > As for the theoretical alternatives - yeah, there's that. A Firebrand can now (in theory) share Aegis + Stab while supplying quickness and reasonable dps. But the problem is, you end up needing two specific builds instead of one to supply two vital buffs. And the one specific build is already abundant around, so what's the point? If Firebrand+Renegade clearly outperform Chrono+dps (or heck, even chrono+druid), it might end up used by the big boys and end up in the meta. But support Renegade feels a bit fiddly to me, as if it tries to do a bit too much and it makes it not as reliable. We'll see.

>

> You are looking at this from a static perspective. I'm looking at it from a PUG perspective (since my static fell apart 8 weeks ago I've been chrono tanking full clears weekly).

>

> The skill some people bring at 250 or even 400+ LI (askinf for more just becomes silly eventually) is sometimes scary bad. I'm talking people who completely panic if something goes wrong due to lack of encounter understanding besides the "everything goes according to plan rotation". This is especially true on wing bosses where many PUGs will:

>

> - not volunteer for canons on Sabetha (the easiest wing boss) and not throw properly

> - go kitten mode on Matthias because mechanics be hard

> - don't clear shards at Xera so I can pull her out even after caps lock "screaming" to clear a specific marker

> - dodging Deimos smash, not stepping into black, picking up tears, avoiding hands if a phase is messy

> - cover distort for aegis on deimos was almost required because tear pickup is usually bad

>

> The amount of carry one was able to do with a single chrono was both liberating (because I had it in my hand to make sure the wing/raid succeeded even if idiots were present) and annoying/taxing because of all the extra work.

 

Oh, I get your point now. Agreed. The level of incompetence in pugs can be mind-boggling. From this perspective, the change kind of makes sense, exactly because of how much a chrono could carry his group. But it makes pugs even more annoying, for the same reason. Huh...

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > > > Have you considered, that maybe, just maybe, Anet didn't want whole groups of players to ignore a multitude of different boss mechanics (mechanics raid devs spent a lot of time devising) with a single click?

> > > > > > > > Perhaps you might now need to actually learn to run greens or jump the waves, or manage your damage in order to not be killed by Gorse retal

> > > > > > > > (oh, who i am kidding, i'm sure alternative methods are already devised)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Have you considered that using the single click is a risk? Basically you trust your chrono to have proper timing. If he does, you get rewarded, if he doesn't you get punished. It's a fair trade.

> > > > > > Sure it's a risk. Doing the mechanics the intended way is also a risk (because you can fail them). Pushing the responsibility on chrono minimizes the risk, as only one person (well, one per subgroup) needs to get it right, instead of the whole group.

> > > > > > You'd be surprised how many players were either completely unaware of some of the boss mechanics, or were unable to cope with them because up to now they were always depending on someone else to take care of those.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That actually promoted _less_ skilled play.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > It's less skill on an individual level. But it's teamplay. It's playing *with* others, as opposed to playing *next to* others. So it is ultimately better gameplay.

> > > >

> > > > I'm torn on this.

> > > >

> > > > I'm not happy with the change (especially since now we get distorted and everyone else gets aegis which makes things even weirder), but I was getting tired that 8 out of 10 people could basically not know mechanics for some fights. The reason I'm disappointed with the change is mostly because the amount of fights this truly affected was 2 (VG and Gorse) at best with VG green skips being the most significant. Every other fight was slightly speed up but no drastic mechanics were skipped.

> > > >

> > > > The biggest reason for change is that now theoretically chrono could be replaced (which it already could for most compositions but people are lazy to try out new things). Saying theoretically because practically I doubt this will happen making this change even more idiotic but who knows what future nerfs are in store for chrono.

> > >

> > > I'm not sure 8/10 people not knowing the mechanics is a realistic scenario. Sure, in theory you could do that. But it would take an already experienced group with excellent chronos which gets progressively replaced until none of the original roster, barring the chronos, remain in it. My point is, every more or less static group started with the basics, nailed them down and only later got to the point where chronos sped up the process by distorting. For the record, in my static we never distorted greens on VG and Gorse retal. Guess people just didn't see the point of it - we already have the routine and it seemed like an unnecessary effort to practice these, so we just stuck with what was working.

> > >

> > > As for the theoretical alternatives - yeah, there's that. A Firebrand can now (in theory) share Aegis + Stab while supplying quickness and reasonable dps. But the problem is, you end up needing two specific builds instead of one to supply two vital buffs. And the one specific build is already abundant around, so what's the point? If Firebrand+Renegade clearly outperform Chrono+dps (or heck, even chrono+druid), it might end up used by the big boys and end up in the meta. But support Renegade feels a bit fiddly to me, as if it tries to do a bit too much and it makes it not as reliable. We'll see.

> >

> > You are looking at this from a static perspective. I'm looking at it from a PUG perspective (since my static fell apart 8 weeks ago I've been chrono tanking full clears weekly).

> >

> > The skill some people bring at 250 or even 400+ LI (askinf for more just becomes silly eventually) is sometimes scary bad. I'm talking people who completely panic if something goes wrong due to lack of encounter understanding besides the "everything goes according to plan rotation". This is especially true on wing bosses where many PUGs will:

> >

> > - not volunteer for canons on Sabetha (the easiest wing boss) and not throw properly

> > - go kitten mode on Matthias because mechanics be hard

> > - don't clear shards at Xera so I can pull her out even after caps lock "screaming" to clear a specific marker

> > - dodging Deimos smash, not stepping into black, picking up tears, avoiding hands if a phase is messy

> > - cover distort for aegis on deimos was almost required because tear pickup is usually bad

> >

> > The amount of carry one was able to do with a single chrono was both liberating (because I had it in my hand to make sure the wing/raid succeeded even if idiots were present) and annoying/taxing because of all the extra work.

>

> Oh, I get your point now. Agreed. The level of incompetence in pugs can be mind-boggling. From this perspective, the change kind of makes sense, exactly because of how much a chrono could carry his group. But it makes pugs even more annoying, for the same reason. Huh...

 

Absolutely, I'll have to wait and see how everything pans out. I do expect PUG runs on select bosses to have a slight turn for the worse.

 

From a high end "push your group to the max" perspective the change was very disrupting.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Imhariel.5683" said:

> So yeah, uhm I guess Distortion is gone and so far the reaction from the raiding community seems to be somewhere between "eh don't care" "good riddance" and "NOOOOOOOOOO".

> In every discussion that happened, on this forum and elsewhere, there seemd to be a consensus that the trait that shares distortion is to strong and prevents other classes from ever being a viable option in replacing a chrono... on tuesday we learned that the devs agree.

>

> For everyone that is either not aware what is going on or has not red the patchnotes yet:

> Chrono was able to to distort himself that means 1 second of invulnerability for him, while this is still possible chrono is now unable to share this distortion to his group via inspiring distortion. Chrono also got a buch of other ways to generate tons and tons of quickness via mantra of concentration.

>

> With this change and the other changes to chrono the class has become very stale to me and to other raid chronos. From what was a very cool high skill ceiling, very active class to a very low skill ceiling class. When you wanted to distort Gorseval slams before you had to hit the timing and distort just before his fist hits the ground, now you have a 5 second window in timing. From what felt like a really rewarding thing to pull of is now a really easy but unfun thing that just kinda happens.

>

> "but..." you might say, "now you've got aegis and the class becomes easier to learn for newcomers".

> First things first: aegis

> This boon is not great, not even close to decent, because wing 1-4 were designed with distortion in mind that means while you can't block with aegis you can distort them, same thing with samarog waves and a million other mechanics have these nasty "one hit to strip aegis, one to deal dmg". This makes the trait just utterly useless in a lot of situations .

> "but at least it's easier to learn"

> Yep, true but there is almost nothing to master you can not really do more than giving 100% quickness/100% alacrity that is now the best you can do.

>

> "Well, don't just sit there and whine! what do you want?"

> Here is what I want either give the chronos back distortion but make it a group wide block for 1 second. This would get around things like VG greens and other mechanics that can not be blocked.

> OR

> change the boon itself: make aegis a 1 second block. This would also impact the wvw and pvp crowd. I don't really play these modes tell me if it is to op, if it is I would propose that after you got aegis you get a debuff (kinda like revealed) that you can not get it again for x seconds.

>

> at the very least change the god-forsaken name: inspiring distortion?

>

>

>

>

> TLDR: Distortion gone, good chronos kinda sad, aegis no skill=no fun. Make aegis good plox

 

It argue its the other way around. The first few wings were designed with neither distort aegis in mind hence why crucial mechanics can be distorted in earlier wings and cant in later ones.

 

And lol if an attack ca be blocked i moght argue in cases the new distort can be harder to pull off. A 1 source of dmg block makes it alot more valueable and good timing is key as in 5 sec a whole lot of things can happen.

[Imhariel.5683]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

 

> And lol if an attack ca be blocked i moght argue in cases the new distort can be harder to pull off. A 1 source of dmg block makes it alot more valueable and good timing is key as in 5 sec a whole lot of things can happen.

 

But that is only if somthing can actually dmg you in these 5 seconds, for most encounters that is not really the reality and where it is the difficulty did not change. Also you can now fail the timing and with a little luck (aka. no one getting hit) still block the attack.