KrHome.1920 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 > @"Jojo.6590" said: > Nice straw man argumentation! You didn't convince anybody except Condi Mirage players who now can feel ultra pro because of "highest skillcap" class and stuff... (I guess you meant "skill floor" - otherwise your argument doesn't even make sense in a straw man context) But your Number 1 hilarious argument ist your enumeration of what other classes can do.... (I guess you meant "could do" if they could hit you in your 5 seconds invincible frame before you disengage or if they wouldn't kill themselfes because of 10+ stacks of confusion reapplied within a few seconds after they cleansed it) A build that punishes opponents for fighting back should not additionally be ultra mobile, immune to stunbreaks or invulnerable during attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 > @"KrHome.1920" said: > A build that punishes opponents for fighting back should not additionally be ultra mobile, immune to stunbreaks or invulnerable during attacks. And people have been arguing for years that a class with teleports and evades up the kitten shouldnt have permastealth either but then Anet gave them a single attack that can hit for 25K+ instead. Well, after giving them even more evades and teleports. Anet clearly want this so why question it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToPNoP.2493 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"ToPNoP.2493" said: > > Mirage dominates in wvw also, as a thief player a Mesmer can hit for 24k and take virtually no damage. if I do happen to get a backstab off, they just heal to full, go invuln, and enjoy 30 seconds of 5k hits for shatter Mesmer, 24k for sword. even Mesmer players are saying it needs a nerf > > you cant just spamm interrupts against mirage, but unless you fail (no worries i do that myself from time to time) , you should allways kill the mirage in 1 on 1 as thief in WvW. power mirage can indeed oneshot you with a shatter, but depending on build you can oneshot them with backstab - gl to the mesmer to avoid that - avoiding the shatter is easier. if they are condi, they are basically free kill for you if you run shadow arts - this is build wars, at least as thief you can counter anything. > > like 4 years ago i roamed exclusively on double sword + GS or staff mesmer for a while and i didnt like the torch.. so with now more mobility and target break skills i fellt like i can again play a mesmer with double swords and its was fun but when i had to fight too many 1 vs 3+ i saw myself switching back to my thief. > dont know about condi mirage but i dont think they can better handle multiple opponents and that is what actually matters in roaming in WvW - for group play id say there are equal or better options out there. > > so no mirage is not too op in WvW, but people in WvW cry about everything. scoruge is also not OP and deadeye also , but people cry about it. the only thing that i feel need tuning is enchantment collapse getting at least 1sec ICD. aside from that its all fine. but WvW players dont like changes - see DBL, so they want anet to 'fix' everything instead of adapting. > not everyone wants to play a sword duelist class. I am not standing in one spot waiting my turn, I am roaming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToPNoP.2493 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 > @"Carighan.6758" said: > > @"ToPNoP.2493" said: > > Apparently you have not seen thieves get smashed by mesmers. 1 hit every time. Do you even play wvw, or are you just protecting that over powered toon because its not build carry but your true skill? No matter what the reason, if you are not hiding in a zerg then you'd be aware of the burst that Mesmer can do 2 times and at any moment during an insanely long invis period, the full burst is enough to 1 hit a warrior I am sure, strait through the auto defy pain. And any condi Mesmer is just insane, toughness, resistance, cleanse, invuln, invis, and many many clones to eventually wear down even the tankiest of thief builds. I don't really know how the clone mes fairs against warrior, the weaver's insane burst made me park my warrior and play thief only, if I cant win I will run away and simply tap keeps. Chatting with Mesmer duelers on bg, they are saying it is too op. But really, all pof specs are half again as stong as the majority of pre pof specs. Hopefully the new will wear off enough so that Anet can return all specs to semi equal settings. For now, I will avoid all mesmers no matter the rank, I don't expect to win against them anyway. The things we realize in reality land. > > This is pure gold. > > Thanks, you made my morning so much more enjoyable. I mean, I heavily doubt you actually play any sort of PvP (because your statements are so far in the hyperbole they defy a basic understanding of the game mode), but they're sure funny to read. Some sort of 0P or AVGN influence in there, I guess. Who said anything about pvp? I guess you missed the acronym "wvw." I quit pvp during the first season I tried due to noticing one player carrying teams of 5 for 70 consecutive wins. I don't care if the person has the best computer with the best internet connection, brand new g13 and most advanced mouse possible. I just can not see that happening with random team mates. However, i do go in competitions using random classes to learn how to play them. I did this with all of my mains, thief was never meant to be my main, but I'm forced to it by pof. Really, you did not say anything other than you think I do not PVP, well bro, you are right. Way to contribute, pure gold indeed. BTW, nice words. Do you do the word a day calendar or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 > @"ToPNoP.2493" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"ToPNoP.2493" said: > > > Mirage dominates in wvw also, as a thief player a Mesmer can hit for 24k and take virtually no damage. if I do happen to get a backstab off, they just heal to full, go invuln, and enjoy 30 seconds of 5k hits for shatter Mesmer, 24k for sword. even Mesmer players are saying it needs a nerf > > > > you cant just spamm interrupts against mirage, but unless you fail (no worries i do that myself from time to time) , you should allways kill the mirage in 1 on 1 as thief in WvW. power mirage can indeed oneshot you with a shatter, but depending on build you can oneshot them with backstab - gl to the mesmer to avoid that - avoiding the shatter is easier. if they are condi, they are basically free kill for you if you run shadow arts - this is build wars, at least as thief you can counter anything. > > > > like 4 years ago i roamed exclusively on double sword + GS or staff mesmer for a while and i didnt like the torch.. so with now more mobility and target break skills i fellt like i can again play a mesmer with double swords and its was fun but when i had to fight too many 1 vs 3+ i saw myself switching back to my thief. > > dont know about condi mirage but i dont think they can better handle multiple opponents and that is what actually matters in roaming in WvW - for group play id say there are equal or better options out there. > > > > so no mirage is not too op in WvW, but people in WvW cry about everything. scoruge is also not OP and deadeye also , but people cry about it. the only thing that i feel need tuning is enchantment collapse getting at least 1sec ICD. aside from that its all fine. but WvW players dont like changes - see DBL, so they want anet to 'fix' everything instead of adapting. > > > > not everyone wants to play a sword duelist class. I am not standing in one spot waiting my turn, I am roaming... cool i am also roaming, rarely dueling (maybe once every 3-4 month) and i dont play with sword currently on my thief but maybe i will try soon just for a change. and while roaming you have even better chance against most classes, including mesmers. as many people there blow off too much of their CDs as they fear you will run away if they dont kill you fast enough, so if you avoid their inital spamm they are easier to kill. while in a duell people will use their stuff better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carighan.6758 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 > @"ToPNoP.2493" said: > Who said anything about pvp? I guess you missed the acronym "wvw." Erm, you said PvP. "Player versus Player". That's what WvW is, generally. I mean some players exclusively fight objectives but even those tend to aim their skills at the enemy players sometimes. I think you confused it with sPvP, the 5v5 game mode. Which is also a form of PvP, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svarty.8019 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 > @"CharmedWitchery.1750" said: > Haven't actively played for about 2 months, been wvwing last couple of days and people are calling mirage broken. I was playing it at PoF launch and some time after, can't remember anyone saying build was op back then. I check every patch notes for mesmer changes, there were no significant buffs as far as I know. So what happened? A friend of mine says that even semi-potatoes can play mesmers now. Maybe people are calling for Mirage nerfs because more people are trying out the Mirage due to their other classes being nerfed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jojo.6590 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 > @"KrHome.1920" I can see where you would become confused to think that my first statement is a straw man argument. Since in my argument I do to an extent agree that mirage in some aspects is over powered ( that being the stun break) and I also acknowledge the other side(s). This invalidates the idea that my argument is a straw man one. Now on the other hand, your argument is more of a straw man one. This is because you refuse to acknowledge the other side of the argument and as your statement progress you become more aggressive/ defensive with your argument, increasing your attacks against the “straw man”. you’re “argument” also lacks little to no actual support for your claims expect for your opinion of how mirage is OP. Your only valid argument is the high ability to break stuns. Though I did already state this and in so agree with you that this is over powered. Other then this your argument is all over the place, it’s very incohesive. This is also pointed out by how heated you seem to be in your statement over someone simply playing devil's advocate. When being heated you’re less likely to make a decent argument, let alone someone will understand your view. With all of this in mind, your argument uses more aspects of a straw man. Learning how to manipulate your dodges/ evades for either some burst damage or to be used defensively is a high skill cap, thinking other wise is just baffling. Mirage’s main gimmick is this, the spec is centered around this gimmick. If you do not utilize this correctly as a mirage you will die. Simply put this is a very high skill cap mechanic, espicaly since mirage does not get a 3rd endurance bar like another specific spec that has a greater amount of mobility, insane amounts of stealth, and massive damage burst. When fighting a mirage don’t blow your burst right away, wait until after they've used up a dodge (bait them to use it), then punish them for it, it’s really simple. People would understand this more if they actually took the time and ask (as I did my self) “what am I (your self) doing wrong?” Find a decent mirage or people in your guild that play the spec and duel them, pick their brain, learn how the class works. But sadly most people rather cry “OP, nerf” rather then taking the time to learn and adapt to the changing meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 Mirage is the most OP spec in the game. It is actually greater in power than scourge due to having no inherent weakness. Yes Scourge carries team fights, but they need a firebrand. Mirage needs no one to carry a game besides him/herself. As for people doubting what Helseth said that's pretty funny. Yes I agree the fella isn't the best theory crafter for mesmer since he said Mirage was going to be trash tier when Frostball (I think that's who it was), myself, and others were saying Mirage is going to be broken OP. Turns out the later correct (as usual) and Helseth was again incorrect in his theory crafting, BUT once the power level of mirage was revealed his assessments is 100% accurate since he has played the spec. Let me put in terms you understand. Most ppl here that reside on this forum hate thieves so i'll use that class to illustrate what Mirage is at this time. Imagine a thief that retains all it's mobility & gains more elusiveness along with the abilty to 100-0 anyone class in the game with it's condi burst while being the absolute strongest 1v1 spec in the entire game that can also hold points for periods of time as well. That spell it out for ya? (Yes I know mirage isn't as fast as a Daredevil thief but it's the 2nd fastest class in the game) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levetty.1279 Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > Imagine a thief that retains all it's mobility & gains more elusiveness along with the abilty to 100-0 anyone class in the game with it's condi burst while being the absolute strongest 1v1 spec in the entire game that can also hold points for periods of time as well. We don't need to imagine it, that is the thief that is in game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 > @"Levetty.1279" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > Imagine a thief that retains all it's mobility & gains more elusiveness along with the abilty to 100-0 anyone class in the game with it's condi burst while being the absolute strongest 1v1 spec in the entire game that can also hold points for periods of time as well. > > We don't need to imagine it, that is the thief that is in game. You lose to thieves 1v1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tartarus.1082 Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > Mirage is the most OP spec in the game. It is actually greater in power than scourge due to having no inherent weakness. Yes Scourge carries team fights, but they need a firebrand. > > Mirage needs no one to carry a game besides him/herself. > > As for people doubting what Helseth said that's pretty funny. Yes I agree the fella isn't the best theory crafter for mesmer since he said Mirage was going to be trash tier when Frostball (I think that's who it was), myself, and others were saying Mirage is going to be broken OP. > > Turns out the later correct (as usual) and Helseth was again incorrect in his theory crafting, BUT once the power level of mirage was revealed his assessments is 100% accurate since he has played the spec. > > Let me put in terms you understand. Most ppl here that reside on this forum hate thieves so i'll use that class to illustrate what Mirage is at this time. > > Imagine a thief that retains all it's mobility & gains more elusiveness along with the abilty to 100-0 anyone class in the game with it's condi burst while being the absolute strongest 1v1 spec in the entire game that can also hold points for periods of time as well. > > That spell it out for ya? > > (Yes I know mirage isn't as fast as a Daredevil thief but it's the 2nd fastest class in the game) Tbh though at the beta it was trash tier. It's only now considered op because of how much buffs and fixes the spec has received since launch, bringing out the real capability of the toolkit. I was actually running a spec similar to the carrion innep just with all the mid defensive traits and nightmare rune for the blind proc on jaunt. As the patches have continued and the glaring mechanical design flaws have been fixed the build has gradually gotten to its current status. Basically, at the time I don't think helseth was wrong about mirage. He wasn't evaluating what it could be, but what it was at the time. In contrast, frostball was talking about the carrion burst build and claiming it had potential but the design was trash. In all honesty though the spec is literally being carried by a single op trait and condi burst synergy. Design wise it's pretty trashy and lacks any coherent logic and rational behind the traits. I mean hey one of the traits literally just gives you protection after you dodge lol. In contrast if you look at SB, the spec is clearly motivated by lockdown and boonstrip capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oozo.7856 Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 Both the thief and the mesmer are low risk/high reward classes in straight up fighting that are easy to play since they have multiple tools to reset fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 > @"CharmedWitchery.1750" said: > Haven't actively played for about 2 months, been wvwing last couple of days and people are calling mirage broken. I was playing it at PoF launch and some time after, can't remember anyone saying build was op back then. I check every patch notes for mesmer changes, there were no significant buffs as far as I know. So what happened? Well, its easy. It had a lot of bugs, and when those bugs were fixed it exploded into top DPS. Then they fixed that a bit, which toned it down to top3 DPS. Then when they nerfed everyone else that relied on condis, they actually boosted Mirage, so it's become a bit too powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 > @"tartarus.1082" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > Mirage is the most OP spec in the game. It is actually greater in power than scourge due to having no inherent weakness. Yes Scourge carries team fights, but they need a firebrand. > > > > Mirage needs no one to carry a game besides him/herself. > > > > As for people doubting what Helseth said that's pretty funny. Yes I agree the fella isn't the best theory crafter for mesmer since he said Mirage was going to be trash tier when Frostball (I think that's who it was), myself, and others were saying Mirage is going to be broken OP. > > > > Turns out the later correct (as usual) and Helseth was again incorrect in his theory crafting, BUT once the power level of mirage was revealed his assessments is 100% accurate since he has played the spec. > > > > Let me put in terms you understand. Most ppl here that reside on this forum hate thieves so i'll use that class to illustrate what Mirage is at this time. > > > > Imagine a thief that retains all it's mobility & gains more elusiveness along with the abilty to 100-0 anyone class in the game with it's condi burst while being the absolute strongest 1v1 spec in the entire game that can also hold points for periods of time as well. > > > > That spell it out for ya? > > > > (Yes I know mirage isn't as fast as a Daredevil thief but it's the 2nd fastest class in the game) > > Tbh though at the beta it was trash tier. It's only now considered op because of how much buffs and fixes the spec has received since launch, bringing out the real capability of the toolkit. I was actually running a spec similar to the carrion innep just with all the mid defensive traits and nightmare rune for the blind proc on jaunt. As the patches have continued and the glaring mechanical design flaws have been fixed the build has gradually gotten to its current status. > > Basically, at the time I don't think helseth was wrong about mirage. He wasn't evaluating what it could be, but what it was at the time. In contrast, frostball was talking about the carrion burst build and claiming it had potential but the design was trash. > > In all honesty though the spec is literally being carried by a single op trait and condi burst synergy. Design wise it's pretty trashy and lacks any coherent logic and rational behind the traits. I mean hey one of the traits literally just gives you protection after you dodge lol. In contrast if you look at SB, the spec is clearly motivated by lockdown and boonstrip capabilities. Helseth was wrong. Everyone who said Mirage was going to be broken said you need time to evaluate the spec. Y'all just wanted to shout it down and say it was trash tier. Y'all still try to maintain that stance saying other classes beat Mirage lol. Mirage is OP and broken. Mirage needs a heavy nerf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 > @"Oozo.7856" said: > Both the thief and the mesmer are low risk/high reward classes in straight up fighting that are easy to play since they have multiple tools to reset fights. > Mesmer takes extremely more skill than necro....even mirage takes more skill than scourge. Necro is in the bottom of the "skill required" category. It's a beginner class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"tartarus.1082" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > Mirage is the most OP spec in the game. It is actually greater in power than scourge due to having no inherent weakness. Yes Scourge carries team fights, but they need a firebrand. > > > > > > Mirage needs no one to carry a game besides him/herself. > > > > > > As for people doubting what Helseth said that's pretty funny. Yes I agree the fella isn't the best theory crafter for mesmer since he said Mirage was going to be trash tier when Frostball (I think that's who it was), myself, and others were saying Mirage is going to be broken OP. > > > > > > Turns out the later correct (as usual) and Helseth was again incorrect in his theory crafting, BUT once the power level of mirage was revealed his assessments is 100% accurate since he has played the spec. > > > > > > Let me put in terms you understand. Most ppl here that reside on this forum hate thieves so i'll use that class to illustrate what Mirage is at this time. > > > > > > Imagine a thief that retains all it's mobility & gains more elusiveness along with the abilty to 100-0 anyone class in the game with it's condi burst while being the absolute strongest 1v1 spec in the entire game that can also hold points for periods of time as well. > > > > > > That spell it out for ya? > > > > > > (Yes I know mirage isn't as fast as a Daredevil thief but it's the 2nd fastest class in the game) > > > > Tbh though at the beta it was trash tier. It's only now considered op because of how much buffs and fixes the spec has received since launch, bringing out the real capability of the toolkit. I was actually running a spec similar to the carrion innep just with all the mid defensive traits and nightmare rune for the blind proc on jaunt. As the patches have continued and the glaring mechanical design flaws have been fixed the build has gradually gotten to its current status. > > > > Basically, at the time I don't think helseth was wrong about mirage. He wasn't evaluating what it could be, but what it was at the time. In contrast, frostball was talking about the carrion burst build and claiming it had potential but the design was trash. > > > > In all honesty though the spec is literally being carried by a single op trait and condi burst synergy. Design wise it's pretty trashy and lacks any coherent logic and rational behind the traits. I mean hey one of the traits literally just gives you protection after you dodge lol. In contrast if you look at SB, the spec is clearly motivated by lockdown and boonstrip capabilities. > > Helseth was wrong. > > Everyone who said Mirage was going to be broken said you need time to evaluate the spec. Y'all just wanted to shout it down and say it was trash tier. Y'all still try to maintain that stance saying other classes beat Mirage lol. > > Mirage is OP and broken. > > Mirage needs a heavy nerf > It was weak initially - eg 0.75s evade on dodge, bugged skills (eg axe 3, IA, ambushes...), the awful shatter mirror trait, false oasis on 30s, and so on. The multiple fixes, quality of life changes and buffs have changed that. So Mirage pre-pof launch and Mirage now are not comparable in strength. No I'm not saying to go back to a 0.75s dodge - the 1s dodge is necessary to make up for lack of movement out of any aoe. Also I like that weapons such as axe allow flexibility in builds, such that we are not forced into traiting Illusions and performing shatter spam if playing any kind of hybrid or condi build. Small tweaks like reducing Jaunt to 2 stacks confusion for longer duration, reduce axe 3 and scepter 2 to 4 stacks of their respective conditions, and make other small shavings like that. Personally I'd like a radical change such as deleting/merging F2 into F1, so we have only 3 core shatters. Then rebalance core, chrono and mirage accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"tartarus.1082" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > Mirage is the most OP spec in the game. It is actually greater in power than scourge due to having no inherent weakness. Yes Scourge carries team fights, but they need a firebrand. > > > > > > > > Mirage needs no one to carry a game besides him/herself. > > > > > > > > As for people doubting what Helseth said that's pretty funny. Yes I agree the fella isn't the best theory crafter for mesmer since he said Mirage was going to be trash tier when Frostball (I think that's who it was), myself, and others were saying Mirage is going to be broken OP. > > > > > > > > Turns out the later correct (as usual) and Helseth was again incorrect in his theory crafting, BUT once the power level of mirage was revealed his assessments is 100% accurate since he has played the spec. > > > > > > > > Let me put in terms you understand. Most ppl here that reside on this forum hate thieves so i'll use that class to illustrate what Mirage is at this time. > > > > > > > > Imagine a thief that retains all it's mobility & gains more elusiveness along with the abilty to 100-0 anyone class in the game with it's condi burst while being the absolute strongest 1v1 spec in the entire game that can also hold points for periods of time as well. > > > > > > > > That spell it out for ya? > > > > > > > > (Yes I know mirage isn't as fast as a Daredevil thief but it's the 2nd fastest class in the game) > > > > > > Tbh though at the beta it was trash tier. It's only now considered op because of how much buffs and fixes the spec has received since launch, bringing out the real capability of the toolkit. I was actually running a spec similar to the carrion innep just with all the mid defensive traits and nightmare rune for the blind proc on jaunt. As the patches have continued and the glaring mechanical design flaws have been fixed the build has gradually gotten to its current status. > > > > > > Basically, at the time I don't think helseth was wrong about mirage. He wasn't evaluating what it could be, but what it was at the time. In contrast, frostball was talking about the carrion burst build and claiming it had potential but the design was trash. > > > > > > In all honesty though the spec is literally being carried by a single op trait and condi burst synergy. Design wise it's pretty trashy and lacks any coherent logic and rational behind the traits. I mean hey one of the traits literally just gives you protection after you dodge lol. In contrast if you look at SB, the spec is clearly motivated by lockdown and boonstrip capabilities. > > > > Helseth was wrong. > > > > Everyone who said Mirage was going to be broken said you need time to evaluate the spec. Y'all just wanted to shout it down and say it was trash tier. Y'all still try to maintain that stance saying other classes beat Mirage lol. > > > > Mirage is OP and broken. > > > > Mirage needs a heavy nerf > > > > It was weak initially - eg 0.75s evade on dodge, bugged skills (eg axe 3, IA, ambushes...), the awful shatter mirror trait, false oasis on 30s, and so on. > > The multiple fixes, quality of life changes and buffs have changed that. So Mirage pre-pof launch and Mirage now are not comparable in strength. > > No I'm not saying to go back to a 0.75s dodge - the 1s dodge is necessary to make up for lack of movement out of any aoe. Also I like that weapons such as axe allow flexibility in builds, such that we are not forced into traiting Illusions and performing shatter spam if playing any kind of hybrid or condi build. > > Small tweaks like reducing Jaunt to 2 stacks confusion for longer duration, reduce axe 3 and scepter 2 to 4 stacks of their respective conditions, and make other small shavings like that. > > Personally I'd like a radical change such as deleting/merging F2 into F1, so we have only 3 core shatters. Then rebalance core, chrono and mirage accordingly. Here's the problem with your assessments. Anet can't balance with precision. Their track record shows you this. I agree they need to precisely adjust Mirage, but even the correct nerfs are going to make this forum explode. This is because the needed nerfs are heavy to begin with. The amount of things Mirage does great is too much and you are going to have to sacrifice 50% of them to get balanced. Maybe more if everyone wanted to keep the mobility of Mirage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Oozo.7856" said: > > Both the thief and the mesmer are low risk/high reward classes in straight up fighting that are easy to play since they have multiple tools to reset fights. > > > > Mesmer takes extremely more skill than necro....even mirage takes more skill than scourge. > > Necro is in the bottom of the "skill required" category. It's a beginner class Pot, meet kettle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"tartarus.1082" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > Mirage is the most OP spec in the game. It is actually greater in power than scourge due to having no inherent weakness. Yes Scourge carries team fights, but they need a firebrand. > > > > > > > > > > Mirage needs no one to carry a game besides him/herself. > > > > > > > > > > As for people doubting what Helseth said that's pretty funny. Yes I agree the fella isn't the best theory crafter for mesmer since he said Mirage was going to be trash tier when Frostball (I think that's who it was), myself, and others were saying Mirage is going to be broken OP. > > > > > > > > > > Turns out the later correct (as usual) and Helseth was again incorrect in his theory crafting, BUT once the power level of mirage was revealed his assessments is 100% accurate since he has played the spec. > > > > > > > > > > Let me put in terms you understand. Most ppl here that reside on this forum hate thieves so i'll use that class to illustrate what Mirage is at this time. > > > > > > > > > > Imagine a thief that retains all it's mobility & gains more elusiveness along with the abilty to 100-0 anyone class in the game with it's condi burst while being the absolute strongest 1v1 spec in the entire game that can also hold points for periods of time as well. > > > > > > > > > > That spell it out for ya? > > > > > > > > > > (Yes I know mirage isn't as fast as a Daredevil thief but it's the 2nd fastest class in the game) > > > > > > > > Tbh though at the beta it was trash tier. It's only now considered op because of how much buffs and fixes the spec has received since launch, bringing out the real capability of the toolkit. I was actually running a spec similar to the carrion innep just with all the mid defensive traits and nightmare rune for the blind proc on jaunt. As the patches have continued and the glaring mechanical design flaws have been fixed the build has gradually gotten to its current status. > > > > > > > > Basically, at the time I don't think helseth was wrong about mirage. He wasn't evaluating what it could be, but what it was at the time. In contrast, frostball was talking about the carrion burst build and claiming it had potential but the design was trash. > > > > > > > > In all honesty though the spec is literally being carried by a single op trait and condi burst synergy. Design wise it's pretty trashy and lacks any coherent logic and rational behind the traits. I mean hey one of the traits literally just gives you protection after you dodge lol. In contrast if you look at SB, the spec is clearly motivated by lockdown and boonstrip capabilities. > > > > > > Helseth was wrong. > > > > > > Everyone who said Mirage was going to be broken said you need time to evaluate the spec. Y'all just wanted to shout it down and say it was trash tier. Y'all still try to maintain that stance saying other classes beat Mirage lol. > > > > > > Mirage is OP and broken. > > > > > > Mirage needs a heavy nerf > > > > > > > It was weak initially - eg 0.75s evade on dodge, bugged skills (eg axe 3, IA, ambushes...), the awful shatter mirror trait, false oasis on 30s, and so on. > > > > The multiple fixes, quality of life changes and buffs have changed that. So Mirage pre-pof launch and Mirage now are not comparable in strength. > > > > No I'm not saying to go back to a 0.75s dodge - the 1s dodge is necessary to make up for lack of movement out of any aoe. Also I like that weapons such as axe allow flexibility in builds, such that we are not forced into traiting Illusions and performing shatter spam if playing any kind of hybrid or condi build. > > > > Small tweaks like reducing Jaunt to 2 stacks confusion for longer duration, reduce axe 3 and scepter 2 to 4 stacks of their respective conditions, and make other small shavings like that. > > > > Personally I'd like a radical change such as deleting/merging F2 into F1, so we have only 3 core shatters. Then rebalance core, chrono and mirage accordingly. > > Here's the problem with your assessments. > > Anet can't balance with precision. Their track record shows you this. I agree they need to precisely adjust Mirage, but even the correct nerfs are going to make this forum explode. This is because the needed nerfs are heavy to begin with. The amount of things Mirage does great is too much and you are going to have to sacrifice 50% of them to get balanced. Maybe more if everyone wanted to keep the mobility of Mirage. I personally disagree that the nerfs have to be that heavy (ie "50%"). I'm aware of the usual balance nuking, though there's always a slight optimism that the next patch could potentially be more elegant. We'll just have to wait and see the outcome in a future balance patch, but I believe they need to be careful how they handle mirage as it could go from strong to unplayable depending on what changes take place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jinks.2057 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > @"tartarus.1082" said: > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > Mirage is the most OP spec in the game. It is actually greater in power than scourge due to having no inherent weakness. Yes Scourge carries team fights, but they need a firebrand. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage needs no one to carry a game besides him/herself. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for people doubting what Helseth said that's pretty funny. Yes I agree the fella isn't the best theory crafter for mesmer since he said Mirage was going to be trash tier when Frostball (I think that's who it was), myself, and others were saying Mirage is going to be broken OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > Turns out the later correct (as usual) and Helseth was again incorrect in his theory crafting, BUT once the power level of mirage was revealed his assessments is 100% accurate since he has played the spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me put in terms you understand. Most ppl here that reside on this forum hate thieves so i'll use that class to illustrate what Mirage is at this time. > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine a thief that retains all it's mobility & gains more elusiveness along with the abilty to 100-0 anyone class in the game with it's condi burst while being the absolute strongest 1v1 spec in the entire game that can also hold points for periods of time as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > That spell it out for ya? > > > > > > > > > > > > (Yes I know mirage isn't as fast as a Daredevil thief but it's the 2nd fastest class in the game) > > > > > > > > > > Tbh though at the beta it was trash tier. It's only now considered op because of how much buffs and fixes the spec has received since launch, bringing out the real capability of the toolkit. I was actually running a spec similar to the carrion innep just with all the mid defensive traits and nightmare rune for the blind proc on jaunt. As the patches have continued and the glaring mechanical design flaws have been fixed the build has gradually gotten to its current status. > > > > > > > > > > Basically, at the time I don't think helseth was wrong about mirage. He wasn't evaluating what it could be, but what it was at the time. In contrast, frostball was talking about the carrion burst build and claiming it had potential but the design was trash. > > > > > > > > > > In all honesty though the spec is literally being carried by a single op trait and condi burst synergy. Design wise it's pretty trashy and lacks any coherent logic and rational behind the traits. I mean hey one of the traits literally just gives you protection after you dodge lol. In contrast if you look at SB, the spec is clearly motivated by lockdown and boonstrip capabilities. > > > > > > > > Helseth was wrong. > > > > > > > > Everyone who said Mirage was going to be broken said you need time to evaluate the spec. Y'all just wanted to shout it down and say it was trash tier. Y'all still try to maintain that stance saying other classes beat Mirage lol. > > > > > > > > Mirage is OP and broken. > > > > > > > > Mirage needs a heavy nerf > > > > > > > > > > It was weak initially - eg 0.75s evade on dodge, bugged skills (eg axe 3, IA, ambushes...), the awful shatter mirror trait, false oasis on 30s, and so on. > > > > > > The multiple fixes, quality of life changes and buffs have changed that. So Mirage pre-pof launch and Mirage now are not comparable in strength. > > > > > > No I'm not saying to go back to a 0.75s dodge - the 1s dodge is necessary to make up for lack of movement out of any aoe. Also I like that weapons such as axe allow flexibility in builds, such that we are not forced into traiting Illusions and performing shatter spam if playing any kind of hybrid or condi build. > > > > > > Small tweaks like reducing Jaunt to 2 stacks confusion for longer duration, reduce axe 3 and scepter 2 to 4 stacks of their respective conditions, and make other small shavings like that. > > > > > > Personally I'd like a radical change such as deleting/merging F2 into F1, so we have only 3 core shatters. Then rebalance core, chrono and mirage accordingly. > > > > Here's the problem with your assessments. > > > > Anet can't balance with precision. Their track record shows you this. I agree they need to precisely adjust Mirage, but even the correct nerfs are going to make this forum explode. This is because the needed nerfs are heavy to begin with. The amount of things Mirage does great is too much and you are going to have to sacrifice 50% of them to get balanced. Maybe more if everyone wanted to keep the mobility of Mirage. > > I personally disagree that the nerfs have to be that heavy (ie "50%"). I'm aware of the usual balance nuking, though there's always a slight optimism that the next patch could potentially be more elegant. > > We'll just have to wait and see the outcome in a future balance patch, but I believe they need to be careful how they handle mirage as it could go from strong to unplayable depending on what changes take place. Mirage can do too much. You can't maintain it's mastery in so much and have a balanced game. The nerfs needed will turn this forum into an ocean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musu.9205 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > @"tartarus.1082" said: > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > > > > > > Mirage is the most OP spec in the game. It is actually greater in power than scourge due to having no inherent weakness. Yes Scourge carries team fights, but they need a firebrand. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mirage needs no one to carry a game besides him/herself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for people doubting what Helseth said that's pretty funny. Yes I agree the fella isn't the best theory crafter for mesmer since he said Mirage was going to be trash tier when Frostball (I think that's who it was), myself, and others were saying Mirage is going to be broken OP. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Turns out the later correct (as usual) and Helseth was again incorrect in his theory crafting, BUT once the power level of mirage was revealed his assessments is 100% accurate since he has played the spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me put in terms you understand. Most ppl here that reside on this forum hate thieves so i'll use that class to illustrate what Mirage is at this time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Imagine a thief that retains all it's mobility & gains more elusiveness along with the abilty to 100-0 anyone class in the game with it's condi burst while being the absolute strongest 1v1 spec in the entire game that can also hold points for periods of time as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That spell it out for ya? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Yes I know mirage isn't as fast as a Daredevil thief but it's the 2nd fastest class in the game) > > > > > > > > > > > > Tbh though at the beta it was trash tier. It's only now considered op because of how much buffs and fixes the spec has received since launch, bringing out the real capability of the toolkit. I was actually running a spec similar to the carrion innep just with all the mid defensive traits and nightmare rune for the blind proc on jaunt. As the patches have continued and the glaring mechanical design flaws have been fixed the build has gradually gotten to its current status. > > > > > > > > > > > > Basically, at the time I don't think helseth was wrong about mirage. He wasn't evaluating what it could be, but what it was at the time. In contrast, frostball was talking about the carrion burst build and claiming it had potential but the design was trash. > > > > > > > > > > > > In all honesty though the spec is literally being carried by a single op trait and condi burst synergy. Design wise it's pretty trashy and lacks any coherent logic and rational behind the traits. I mean hey one of the traits literally just gives you protection after you dodge lol. In contrast if you look at SB, the spec is clearly motivated by lockdown and boonstrip capabilities. > > > > > > > > > > Helseth was wrong. > > > > > > > > > > Everyone who said Mirage was going to be broken said you need time to evaluate the spec. Y'all just wanted to shout it down and say it was trash tier. Y'all still try to maintain that stance saying other classes beat Mirage lol. > > > > > > > > > > Mirage is OP and broken. > > > > > > > > > > Mirage needs a heavy nerf > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was weak initially - eg 0.75s evade on dodge, bugged skills (eg axe 3, IA, ambushes...), the awful shatter mirror trait, false oasis on 30s, and so on. > > > > > > > > The multiple fixes, quality of life changes and buffs have changed that. So Mirage pre-pof launch and Mirage now are not comparable in strength. > > > > > > > > No I'm not saying to go back to a 0.75s dodge - the 1s dodge is necessary to make up for lack of movement out of any aoe. Also I like that weapons such as axe allow flexibility in builds, such that we are not forced into traiting Illusions and performing shatter spam if playing any kind of hybrid or condi build. > > > > > > > > Small tweaks like reducing Jaunt to 2 stacks confusion for longer duration, reduce axe 3 and scepter 2 to 4 stacks of their respective conditions, and make other small shavings like that. > > > > > > > > Personally I'd like a radical change such as deleting/merging F2 into F1, so we have only 3 core shatters. Then rebalance core, chrono and mirage accordingly. > > > > > > Here's the problem with your assessments. > > > > > > Anet can't balance with precision. Their track record shows you this. I agree they need to precisely adjust Mirage, but even the correct nerfs are going to make this forum explode. This is because the needed nerfs are heavy to begin with. The amount of things Mirage does great is too much and you are going to have to sacrifice 50% of them to get balanced. Maybe more if everyone wanted to keep the mobility of Mirage. > > > > I personally disagree that the nerfs have to be that heavy (ie "50%"). I'm aware of the usual balance nuking, though there's always a slight optimism that the next patch could potentially be more elegant. > > > > We'll just have to wait and see the outcome in a future balance patch, but I believe they need to be careful how they handle mirage as it could go from strong to unplayable depending on what changes take place. > > Mirage can do too much. You can't maintain it's mastery in so much and have a balanced game. The nerfs needed will turn this forum into an ocean nerf EM , janut confusion stack , sword ambush there will be not much left for mirage . next best thing would be mirror cloak could cover burst combo , but i dont think power build is meta and condi use janut to set up sword ambush + shatter combo anyway . i dont see a mirage can do too much without that 3 things . i dont see anything else that needs heavy nerf . maybe riddle of sand could use some icd . and if they ever nerf those , they better buff other ambush , even sword ambush needs some help , it fails to connect its target way too often . also like Curunen.8729 said , mirage was so bad in beta they changed many things , somehow you thought your opinion based on mirage beta version was correct ? mirage and its core feature like target swap , detarget , mirror and ambush .even after all those changes , only sword ambush stands out , staff ambush is ok i guess . mirror and target swap are jokes . detarget feature is just not so practical in pvp . yes it has broken op trait like EM but rest of trait line is just trash and uninteresting .1.5s protection on dodge .mirror on a 60s cd skill etc .compare its traits to DD , tempest , herald , zerker most gen 1 elite , you know what i mean . in its core , mirage is still a mess , ofc people will rage if it gets heavily nerf without any fix to other ambush and mirror . also you have to remember , it will affect other game mode mainly pve raid where mirage is still not too great despite being high dps (lacking of good cleave and utility is huge drawback ). in general , i think gen 2 elite spec failed to deliver what each class actually needed in both pve and pvp .everything that's op is due to their new overloaded abilities , and often has little to do with their core funnction. weaver : more skills but most useful utilities are gated behind longer cd .it's easy to notice that anet designed sword skills with defensive skills on number 2 skill to make up for that , but it's not enough . spellbreaker : FC or the whole spec is supposed to be some sort of counter but in the end of day it's just a huge buff to core war passive defense . deadeye : new steal is just plain bad design . malice system doesn't fit any game content .kneel +DJ has far less punishment in wvw . they should have just made this spec a ranged supporter but hey thief wanted a sniper . scourge : let's make what was broken op on necro even more broken without fixing their active defense issue and selfish nature , but barrier is so useful ./s renegade : AI never worked in this game , shortbow skill design is so laughable (a skill only useful when ranged , a skill only useful when close without any gap close skill or knockback ) firebrand : its clear anet dont want to adjust all those traits for a single elite , so they went lazy route . tomes ended up with long cd which make this spec less useful as support in pve but op in pvp . and no any resource to limit their ability to be offensive and defensive what can go wrong with that ? soulbeast : a passive buff + some gimmick skills nothing more mirage : half of the features simple don't work in any practical ways. they created this mess based on concept art .and basically a buff to condi mes which most people hate to play and play against (some are l2p issue but still the last thing mesmer needs is a feature like detarget , op vs noob, nearly useless vs good players ) holosmith : finally some spec we use its core function in all game mode also same as intended - high risk / high reward (maybe stability is too good now but general concept remains true ) . itself is well designed , but anet still failed to fit it into engi . no interaction with many traits and weapons , but thats more to do with kit and engi core design . 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rcobey.4825 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 Here's my take on this whole situation, in general: As a player who has recently picked up Guild Wars 2 and is thoroughly enjoying pwning noobs (and non noobs) on my Mirage, this is really not the game for PVP. It has so many amazing aspects about it; professions like engineer and mesmer are such unique styles of play compared to other MMOs, and provide so many different options and possibilities for different play styles....but this is also the reason why it's so difficult to achieve a strong balance among professions, especially in PVP. The more variety and unique abilities you provide, the harder it will be to constantly balance relative to other professions also with numerous, unique abilities. Coming from someone who has PVP'd frequently in other MMOs (and MOBAs, for better or for worse), Guild wars 2 PVP should be taken lightly. It's a gorgeous game, but due to it's lack of focus on pvp by the dev team, as well as the sheer impossibility of balance, it's not a game to be taken too seriously PVP wise. I'm sure this won't be a very popular post, but it's just the opinions and observations of a fairly new(b) player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trepidation Lost.3469 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 Mirage is only op if condi, the only reason power Mesmer is a thing again is because it's so squishy and elusive mind actually gives some defence against direct damage and cleansing without going into inspiration. All you people crying to nerf it, specify a nerf to condi, not power. Mirage one hit me QQ? Have you been living under a rock ? Thief has been able to 18k backstab from invis then run away since day 1 Now a Mesmer can do it, ( mind they have to press a lot more buttons, blink, gs 2 dodge, jaunt and shatter ) Mirage also has a lot less access to invis than thief and is still not faster ( tested it many times, especially vs said thief who can use the jump sword bug to continually teleport off of ambient creatures and walls) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oozo.7856 Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 > @"Jinks.2057" said: > > @"Oozo.7856" said: > > Both the thief and the mesmer are low risk/high reward classes in straight up fighting that are easy to play since they have multiple tools to reset fights. > > > > Mesmer takes extremely more skill than necro....even mirage takes more skill than scourge. > > Necro is in the bottom of the "skill required" category. It's a beginner class Try to roam solo as a necro and tell me how it goes compared to a thief or mesmer. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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