Defining Condition Spam

[Aeolus.3615]

Condition spam when ur fighthing equal numbers 20 vs 20 or 40 vs 40, and when u get overhwelmed by conditions every secvond theres just a few phisical damage once in a while, and everythign else is condi... 30 out of 40 players only use "conditions aoe skills that are able to cast on short cd" based gameplay cause the counter to it its has stupid has the spam n stack itself.

 

This is how ic condi spam :\, sorry about the bad english tho.

 

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> My solution bring back power meta XD i miss it

 

Well that on gw1 worked fine, conditions worked perfectly as well hexes... and that games requires real players skill and teamplay.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Genesis.5169" said:

> The term CC spam doesn't exist or is so rarely used its under my radar CC is a non-issue in this game

We're definitely playing a different game. Talks about CC spam (alongisde the terms "stunlock" and "CC train") are something that keep returning quite frequently since the very beginning of GW2. If you haven't seen those, you weren't paying attention.

 

> @"Arzurag.7506" said:

> Once applied they keep ticking but they don´t hit, nor is there the need to hit perpetually to deal damage.

So, the same as with power - you don't need to get hit perpetually for the skill to deal full damage. Once is enough.

[Genesis.5169]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Genesis.5169" said:

> > The term CC spam doesn't exist or is so rarely used its under my radar CC is a non-issue in this game

> We're definitely playing a different game. Talks about CC spam (alongisde the terms "stunlock" and "CC train") are something that keep returning quite frequently since the very beginning of GW2. If you haven't seen those, you weren't paying attention.

>

> > @"Arzurag.7506" said:

> > Once applied they keep ticking but they don´t hit, nor is there the need to hit perpetually to deal damage.

> So, the same as with power - you don't need to get hit perpetually for the skill to deal full damage. Once is enough.

 

Wanted to let the thread settle and see posts.

All the recent posts are listing grievances about conditions, none of them explain how anyone spamming skills, all i'm hearing is condition are OP please nerf again. And those who say people say CC spam and it's a term and problem that exists do me a favor is google CC spam gw2 forums tell me what your find, then Power Spam, Then condition spam.

 

Post results.

This is not a balance discussion this is about people explaining why the term exists and should we use it.

_For the last time stay on topic_

[BrokenGlass.9356]

Genesis.... I've been reading this post carefully, and I think you are talking past people who are legitimately trying to engage with you.

 

"Condi-spam" (as it's meant by those who are calling for a 'nerf' to condition builds) is as follows: *any skill which applies multiple (3 or more) stacks of any condition, which have a short cooldown and duration.*

 

The reason why "condi-spam" is bad based on this is, is because skills designed in that way make cleanses more valuable. So, like any economic equation, as the supply of condi applications goes up, so too does the demand for condi cleanse.

 

So, if you need to cleanse because some combo of three "condi-spam" style moves were just used, loading you up with 12 stacks of burning.... That's OK, if the player who just burned you can't spike that many burns with a quick combo again before your cleanse is ready.

 

This was the reason for the recent patch. Instead of chaining three moves that each do 4 stacks of burning for 5 sec. You chain the same three moves, (adjusted by the patch) to do 1 stack for 15 sec. Over time both scenarios have the same damage output. 12 stacks burn for 5 sec. Vs 3 stacks burn for 15 sec.

 

What this does, is allows more time for the player reacting to the conditions to time a cleanse. Rather than starting the encounter with 0-100 level damaging conditions on them inside the first five seconds.

 

I agree with OP. People have used this slang of "condi-spam" to infect a legitimate discussion with toxic levels of salt and agitation.

 

But the original concept of "condition builds can produce too many stacks for too short a duration too fast" was legit. And after the most recent patch, is dying a slow death.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Easiest way to explain condition spam to a complainer; Condition spam is exactly the same as physical damage spam:

 

But conditions can constantly be reapplied faster than I can clear

_Physical damage can also be applied faster than I can heal through it, so by that logic, physical damage should be nerfed_

 

Conditions are too bursty, physical damage is supposed to be bursty

_Conditions aren't bursty, it's because you were hit by multiple condition classes at once. My torment ticks for 600-800, fear ticks for 900-1000, and burning ticks for 500-600. This isn't bursty, especially because they get cleared within 1-2s, and no I can't reapply them right away. They are bursty because 5 condition classes are hitting you at once, just as 5 physical damage dealers are hitting me at once, so by that logic, physical damage should be nerfed_

 

Boons are corrupted to quickly

_Boons are applied and reapplied way too quickly_

 

_Conditions are subject to 100% immunity quite easily, why don't condition classes have access to 100% physical damage immunity?_

??? Um ??? Uh ??? Resistance boon gets corrupted easily?

_You never answered my question as to why condition classes don't have access to 100% physical damage immunity..._

Uhh.. Hmm...

_Your resistance get reapplied quickly and easily_

.......

_Obstructed Obstructed Obstructed Obstructed Obstructed?_

......

 

Um... Ya.....

[BrokenGlass.9356]

Certain classes do get physical damage immunity. It's not a boon... But that IS a thing.

 

The original problem was not that multiple classes hit someone at once. It's all a discussion of 'how much damage, how fast?'

 

*Let's compare a hypothetical situation to get the concept down.*

 

- A physical damage move hits for 8000 damage on a critical. This is spike damage, it can be avoided with blocks, dodges, and damage immunity.

 

- A stack of burning hits for say 500 per second. So, if a target burns with one stack for 16 seconds.... That's 8000.

 

So in the simplest sense, a skill that crits for 8000, is better than a 16 second burn stack. Because you can't cleanse off the damage after the first 500. Or because of resistance being much more available than damage immunity.

 

*However, this changes when you nudge the math.*

 

- Let's compare that same 8k criteria 'physical skill' against...

 

- Three skills that each do 4 stacks of burn for 5 seconds in a "condi spam" combo. Resulting in 12 total stacks. At 500 per second, per stack, that's 30,000. Which is 7,500 per tick. So, over the next five seconds, that's nearly five of those 'physical skills' in a row. And you can only counter them with cleanse, healing, and resistance.

 

Where as, in a physical build, that 8k button, is one of a few, inside lots of little 1.5k and 3k buttons. Each of which could be mitagated with toughness, healed through, blocked, distorted, or skipped with invulnerability.

 

In the above example, the condition burst becomes the "better" choice. (and yes, I know that power builds hit for bigger numbers, and more often.) but where that line of "spam" is crossed, is when the condition class burst *that quantity of stacks, in that short a time*

 

If you burst 12 burns, I cleanse... Then you burst 8 more, I cleanse.... You burst 12 more, I can't cleanse because they're out..... The condition build capable of "condition spam" always wins. This is just a design issue. (which the last patch basically fixed.)

 

 

*So to take my above condition burst example post-patch.*

 

- A combo of three moves hits you with three stacks of 15 sec burn. (each of which can be individually blocked etc.) this still totals 30,000 at 1500 per tick, instead of 7500 per tick. This also gives the condition build more time to apply more stacks.

 

This creates counterplay by forcing me to decide when I want to spend my limited budget of cleanse, rather than *having* to spend it in the first few second of a fight to begin to breathe.

 

They designed power damage to be the type of damage that can spike in this regard. If you want to play a build that spikes people 100- 0, that's what power is for.

 

Conditions were built for wars of attrition. This last patch has brought them closer to that goal than they've even been.

[Genesis.5169]

If your getting hit by multiple targets wouldn't that changes peoples philosophy?

 

Getting get buy 4 power rangers and getting hit by 4 necros should kill you just as fast when your dealing with more then 2 people everything is burst and nothing is spam because there are multiple targets coming your way. I see your point @"BrokenGlass.9356" but, i do not think its fair to view it from multiple classes bombing one target. Maybe WvW isn't a good base to discuss spam when theres usually 100+ people fighting.

[BrokenGlass.9356]

Ahhhhh, I'm not talking about multiple people bombing the same target. On that count you are correct. Eventually weight of numbers wins, no matter if we're talking condi, power, or even enough guys in soldiers gear.

 

When I made my example of 'three moves that apply condi' I'm talking about a combo being executed by one player.

 

A great example is the poison daredevil in spvp and wvw roaming. This build casts spider venom, shadowstepps in, applies imobalize, which applies 2 stacks of poison. Then they dodge, leaving caltrops, 2 stacks of bleeding per second, while imobalized in the AoE for 4 seconds, (8stacks bleed) and then lotus training dodge, for torment, cripple, and bleed. Leaving the target imobalized, poisoned (x8 stacks, 2 from trait, 6 from poison.), bleeding (x9) stacks, torment (x1) and crippled.

 

This amounts to huge amounts of condi spam.

Leaving a total of two 8 stack damaging condis, and one stack of torment and crippled applied after, thus those conditions get cleared first... Protecting the more damaging stacks.

 

And all that from pressing, 6, 2, dodge. Which can be done from stealth.

 

I'm aware this is a specific example.

 

But if the 'poison on imobalized' trait did one stack rather than 2. If the bleeding from caltrops did one stack rather than two... (and they do now.... Thanks patch!) then the same opener is a 'condi burst' opener, not a 'condi spam' opener.

 

 

It's all about "how many stacks how fast"

 

- If a condi build can spike stacks high enough that inside the first seconds of an encounter, *its as though they were taking fully buffed power damage*.... It's too strong for pvp balance.

[Genesis.5169]

Granted, but that skill execution and no spamming, as you so skillfully explained and that is what we need more of i thank you for showing me your views of the matter. AS for my opinion condition rotations should hurt as far as i am concerned. If you combo 2-4 condition skills on target it should do more damage then a power hit after 3-4 seconds not less more CD's are burned for that combo and again along the way with all the damage being done, your have oppurtinies for cleanses and mitigation and healing along the way.

 

But again this is not a balance discussion but thanks again to explaining your views of the matter.