How would you redesign the thief?

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > @"Lithril Ashwalker.6230" said:

> > rework Shadow trap to make it actually work instead of semi porting you back

>

> Is that happening for you within the 10k range? If you are out of that it will only port short distance but towards direction of the trap. I'll try testing again to see if it falls short of the trap within range.

 

it will depending on terrain. sometimes you need direct line of sight...good luck having a straight line 100% of the time at half that in pvp maps. this is why i mentioned in another thread to make it ignore such things like Phase Traversal does on revenant...that and Phase Traversal STILL ports you as close as possible AT MAX RANGE if out of range.

[Orpheal.8263]

Under the point, that I want to see Daredevil and Deadeye aspects merged into the Thief, so that it receives two new E-Specs as better replacements, which are then by design no silly sidegrades of the Core Thief, but actually real specializations with different gameplay mechanics, my redesign concept would look under my new conviction that maximum 3 Elite Specs with each adding 2 Weapons is best like this:

 

**Spec 1: Dervish Weapons**

- Staff

- Axes

 

**Spec 2: Assassin Weapons**

- Chakram

- Gauntlets

 

**Spec 3: Rogue Weapons**

- Longbow

- Whip

 

**Core Thief Mechanics** = Dual Weapon Skills, Stealth Assaults/Malice, Initiative & Steal

**Dervish Mechanic** = Replaces Steal with Combat Styles/ Dances are its Utility Skills Type and count as Stances

**Assassin Mechanic** = Enhances Initiative with Chakra and replaces Steal with Finger Signs/ Shadow Controls are its Utility Skill Type and they count as Mantras

**Rogue Mechanics** = Enhances Initiative with Shadow Instinct, replaces Steal with Disarmaments/ Survival Skills are its Utility Skill type of Choice

 

----

 

**Core Thief Skills**

 

**Swords**

SA1) *"Malicious" Flashing Blades* (if Dual Swords) > A long ranged Leap Attack with that you deal damage to all foes in sight of sight and cause Weakness to them.

If you had collected from using Stealth Assaults enough Malice, then you will perform a Malicious Flashing Blades, which causes additionally Bleeding and Vulnerability Stacks to each hit foe and the dealt Damage is slightly stronger, but therefore is its range shorter.

SA2) *"Malicious" Unsuspecting Strike* (if only MH Sword) > An attack with your sword against a target, which doesn't suspect you out from the shadows, so that you will caught it by surprise defensiveless, making this attack unblockable and cause the more damaeg to a foe, so more Health it has, letting it work basically like Heartseeker, but just the other way around. If you had enough Malice, from using enough SA's, then you will perform a Malicious Unsuspecting Strike, which grants you also additionally Might Stacks and Quickness after performing the Strike.

 

1) *Sonic Thrust > Twing Fangs > Dark Repulser* > A 4 Hit Combo-String, beginning with a fast short leap attack, which emits a little Sonic Thrust that pierces through the hit target and can hit up to 3 Enemies behind your Target Enemy, followed by two fast unblockable strikes which steal a Boon and cause Bleeding, finishing it with a fast Shadow Step Attack into the back of your Target which causes Blindness

2) *Jagged Strike* > Attack a foe and cause Cripple and Torment to the hit Target.

3) *Infiltrator's Strike/Infiltrator's Return* (OH Sword) > Perform a Shadow Step Attack, that stuns foes and steals a Boon, on return you lose two Conditions. Deals more Damage and stuns longer, if the foe had no Boons

3.1) *Flanking Strike/Larcerous Strike* (OH Dagger) > Evade around your Target and strike the foe from behind./ Moves one of your Conditions to your foe. Deals more Damage, if you had more Conditions on you, than your Target.

3.2) *Pistol Whip/Ninetails Strike* (OH Pistol) > Stuns your target, while autoblocking attacks in its stun attack animation, followed by 9 rapid fast strikes that you can perform then while being able to move, in the stun attack phase you are rooted

3.3) *Palm Strike (OH No Weapon) > Strike a foe and launch the foe away from you. If this Attack interrupted a foe, it will suffer from Pulmonary Impact, causing some seconds later more damage. If you interrupted your Target, you gain Vigor after this Attack.

4) *Repeating Strikes* > Gain for a short while the ability to hit with your attacks a target always twice, or cause twice as much Condition Stacks, if attacks can deal Conditions.

5) *Horns of the Ox* > Thrust both swords into your Target, causing a Knockdown and Bleedings for a while, while you evade backwards after the attack as you draw your swords out of yoru target.

 

**Daggers**

SA1) *"Malicious" Assassination* (if Dual Daggers) > Perform a Backstab Attack that is unblockable and deals double damage, if hit from behind. When you have enough Malice, you will perform a Malicious Assassination, which will deal unlike the normal version triple damage, if hit from behind and you gain some Health back, if that attack killed or downed the target, more Health, if you actually killed with it a target.

SA 2) *"Malicious" Shadow Fang* (if only MH Dagger) > You strike a target, stealing a Boon and sealing the stolen boon for your Target away, so that your victim can't regain the stolen Boon for the next 20 seconds. if you had enough Malice to perform the malicious version of this Skill, then you will seal the Boon away for 30 seconds for your enemy

1) *Twin Strikes > Wild Strike > Lotus Strike* > A 4hit Combo-String, beginnign with two simple strikes, followed by a wild uppercut strike, which lets you gain Vigor and Fury, finished with a final poisonous Strike, which deals more Poison Stacks, so more other Conditions the Target suffers on.

2) *Heartseeker* > A medium ranged Leap Attack, and with that I mean now a range of 600, not 450, which deals increased Damage so lesser Health the Target has.

3) *Death Blossom* (OH Dagger) > An evasive small AoE 3-hit Attack, causing Bleedings to each hit foe per Strike that hits them.

3.1) *Malicious Strike*> Strike a foe and corrupt a Boon with the Attack to a Condition. Deals more damage and causes Poison, if the foe had no boons to corrupt. (OH Sword)

3.2) *Shadow Shot* > Shoot unblockable at your target, causing Blindness and shadow step to it for a second strike. (OH Pistol)

3.3) *Mantis Touch* > Strike at your Target and leech some of its Health based on a percentage of your dealt Damage, then evade backwards and regain some Initiative, if the evade was successfully evading an incoming attack (OH No Weapon)

4) *Dancing Daggers* > Throw a bouncing Dagger, which cripples and torments foes which it hits

5) *Cloak and Dagger* > Gain stealth without needing to hit a target anymore. But if you take the risk of dealing damage with this attack, you will be now rewarded with dealing more Vulnerability and Weakness to the Target. The Initiative Cost is now 6 therefore.

 

 

As you can see so far from these two examples, what Ive done so far with my concept is:

 

- Merging Malice into the Stealth Assault Attacks, turning malice into a general kind of Charge Up Mechanic, which gains more intensity, so more oftenly you use Stealth Assaults, making basically Malice an Upgrade of Stealth, because its, kinda say - "malicious" to attack somebody, who can't see you ... and thts kind of the current Deadeye gameplay, which I think should be part of thief in general, because its such a signature move for thieves to be malicious ;)

This way becomes Deadeye pretty much obsolete, if Rifle would become a baselined Thief Weapon from a merge of Harpoon Gun to remove this even more so obsolete Weapon Type from the game.

- Changed mostly Sword into more of a Hybrid Weapon, which can work good as Power, but also as Condition Weapon, instead of lettign it be only a Power Weapon by desing. In return becomes Dagger slightly better at Conditions.

- Fixed the 6 years old issue of Pistol Whip rooting us, without that you can move freely for the damage portion of this skill, where mobility is needed, the stun part that is rottign you is only therefore that, that you make sure you use this skill only, when you are sure that you will hit and to prevent mindless skill spam.

- Fixed the 6 years old issue of Cloak and Dagger, being too risky for its cost just to get Stealth and made the skill more rewarding for the players which willingly want that risk for the cost of increased Initiative Cost by +1

- Moved the Crippling from the Sword from AA to its second attack to replace the old AA Strign with a better more interestign one that helps making Sword a better hybrid weapon and because the now strong woudl be op, if it would keep the Cripple, so it had to move to 2 as a little nerf in how often and fast Sword can deal Cripple

- Dagger stood the way it is mostly, because I think daggers is already in a good spot tbh. Aside of fixing CnD and DB's issues and makign the Weapon more affinitive to Condition Builds.

[Lonami.2987]

Revisiting the redesign ideas in a short way, plus [some new elite specialization ideas](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38383) to see how this redesign would improve future content too:

 

* **Thief:** Steal is gone. The new mechanic is the belt, mechanic slot skills where you can equip special skills selected from a list. Core thief has three slots, F1, F2, and F3, and a total of six skills to choose from. These belt skills are designed as situational tricks, and are specially good to perform combos. Each belt skill has three steps, accessed through either chains or sequences. Dual Wield skills are gone. Now, whenever you equip two one-handed weapons of the same type, you get a whole new set of five weapon skills. This means skills like the dual-wield pistol's autoattack uses both pistols now. Stealth is now a boon, and lasts longer. Stealth doesn't turn you completely invisible anymore, and enemy players can detect where you are by paying attention to subtle blurs you leave behind. Stealth is prematurely lost by applying damage to an enemy. Revealed is now a condition, nullifying the effects of the stealth boon.

 

* **Daredevil:** You unlock two additional belt slots, F4 and F5, and four new belt skills to choose from, for a total of ten. The alternate dodge skills get to stay.

 

* **Deadeye:** Deadeye's Mark and Malice are gone, but so is the belt. Instead, the new mechanic is a Deadeye Mode, working like an elementalist attunement. This mode replaces the 5th rifle skill, and unlocks alternate weapon skills in exchange of mobility, for every weapon. These weapons all include a channeled skill in the 5th skill slot, where the longer you hold, the higher the damage, but the higher the chance your enemy runs away or interrupts you. Deadeye Mode can be swapped back and forth using mechanic skill F4. As for F1, F2, and F3, they now hold dice. You can throw these dice for a random result, which acts as an accumulative buff of sorts, which can then be spent while in Deadeye Mode to increase skill effectiveness. The new gameplay is themed around managing your gambling options, high risk for high rewards. If you have a decent dice result, it may be too risky throwing again. Glyphs are the new slot skills, having a different effect in normal and deadeye mode.

 

* **Assassin:** Mechanic skill F4 now contains a new specialist weapon, similar to engineer kits. You have three to choose from: Claws, Chain and Sickle, and Blowpipe. You can swap to your chosen kit whenever you want, much like swapping to a different weapon. They work as normal thief weapon for all purposes, their skills consuming initiative as well. The new weapon is the greatsword, and the new slot skills are stances, some of them allowing you to fight and use stealth together for a short time.

 

* **Changeling:** Mechanic skill F4 now contains a new mechanic, called Shadow Walking. Activating it will replace your F1, F2 and F3 belt skills with three individual pool of darkness skills. Once placed, these pools can be used as portals by the changeling, who fuses with the shadows to teleport between them. You can haunt the shadow of an enemy as well, letting you follow his movements and then jump at him from below. The new slot skills are elixirs, with various random effects.

 

* **Spiritbinder:** The belt is gone, replaced by spirit crystals. You can use these crystals much like bloodstone shards, trapping fragments of enemy souls inside. They float right beside you, and can be commanded like puppets to both shield their master or fly against his enemies. Once loaded, the shards can be broken for various special effects, damaging their original hosts in the process, almost like voodoo dolls, and healing the spiritbinder in return. Mantras are the new slot skills, strengthening the spiritibinder's dark rituals.

 

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:

> I would add an offhand sword to the core set of weapons:

>

> * Skill 4 could be a parry skill that blocks for 2 seconds., blocking projectiles unless an attack in melee range is blocked, in which case it will shadowstep behind the attacker and daze, and if that daze interrupts a skill, also deal damage and vulnerability.

> * Skill 5 could be a very short dash in any direction that evades for half a second while damaging up to 3 enemies in its path. The dash would not make the character turn in the direction of the movement, keeping the same orientation. So you could, for instance, dash behind an enemy that was behind you to face their back without having to turn after dashing.

>

> ---

>

> I would give several of their skills skill ammo, so they still work with initiative, but can have recharges that limit their spammability. Some would have their initiative cost reduced a bit, and in the case of some sequence skills, removed since the skill count already limits how much they can be used.

>

> This would only be done for a few skills that players tend to use over and over, like Unload, Vault, Pistol Whip, Death Blossom and Headshot. In most cases the number of charges would be generous, and would only be felt by players that were accompanying them with lots of initiative recovery to spam them constantly, ignoring all other skills and engaging in repetitive behavior.

>

> For example, Unload could have 5 ammo with 10s recharge each charge. And Ankle Shots would be changed to reduce the recharge of the charges to 8 seconds.

>

> This would encourage using more and more often all other weapon skills instead trying to save initiative for a few.

>

> ---

>

> To make core thief more unique like with necromancer and its different shroud, I would give core thief a distinctive mechanic that is lost when equipping an elite specialization.

>

> For example, extra 'pockets' for stolen skills. Instead just having F1 and F2, Core thief would have F3 as and additional pocket, and Improvisation would no longer allow using stolen skills twice, it would instead add extra pockets in F4 and F5. Daredevil and Deadeye will not have these extra pockets, and for them Improvisation will only give 1 extra stolen skill slot using F3, or work using stolen skills twice as before.

>

> ---

>

> Since Shortbow doesn't have a trait of its own, but Pressure Striking works well with it, I would change the trait into the actual Shortbow trait also making each cast of Choking Gas refund 1 initiative if any of its pulses interrupts (or damage a defiance bar) at least 2 enemies at the same time . This would only happen once per use of Chocking Gas.

 

Core professions need more weapons, specially main-hand and off-hand versions of weapons they can already use.

 

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> I would redesign the thief like this:

> * Get rid of the initiative system

> * melee weapon skill 2 -5 get cooldowns

> * introduce a secondary effect on melee weapons called chain attack . for example a successful hit on 1 would unlock chain 2, and successful hit on 2 would unlock chain 3, and so forth. same cooldown as the regular skill, but a limited time to use the chain attack

> * possibly add a effect called momentum for bigger chains like 1-5 for bigger dmage and not rewarding chains of 3-5, or 4-5 as much

> * shortbow 2-4 get an arrow (ammo kit, maybe max 2 arrows for each skill with icd for each) (some skill effects would need to change to compensate)

> * rifle similiar to shortbow with ammo

> * increase base cooldown of steal to 35 secs

> * add a third profession skill called borrow that allows the thief to target allies instead

>

> because the skills would not be spammable their effects would need to change. a little more defense or offense built into them.

>

> if a player does not use the chain skill, the normal skill does not go on cooldown (the chain skill cooldown at this point would be waiting for the starting skill to recharge)

>

> Skills would be useable in any order and the skills have a normal attack, they can be upgraded to chain attack effect by chaining skill use. So not chaining would not prevent you from attacking or using weapon skills

 

This sounds much more fun than initiative to be fair. Some skills that are inherently spammable can use the ammunition system instead.

[Jack Redline.5379]

> @"Lonami.2987" said:

Thief - Replace Steal with a Skill Belt

 

Knife: Throw one / Throw two / Throw three, bleed if all hit - Short range, projectile finisher

Dart: Throw one / Throw three / Throw five, cripple if all hit - Short range, projectile finisher

Firecracker: Point-blank, area blind, smoke field / Point-blank, blast finisher / Select target, projectile finisher, burning

Stink Bomb: Point-blank, area weakness, poison field / Point-blank, blast finisher / Select target, projectile finisher, poison

Shadowstep: Select target, shadowstep behind / select target, smoke field, shadowstep away / Select target, shadowstep behind, leap finisher

Whirl: Reflect projectiles / poison field, reflect projectiles / Reflect projectiles, whirl finisher - Short duration

Daredevil - Partial redesign

 

Rock: Stun / Knockdown / Knockback - Single projectile, short range, short duration, projectile finisher

Flare: Point-blank, area blindness, dark field / Point-blank, blast finisher / Select target, projectile finisher, confusion

Roll: Evade forward / dark field, evade backwards / Evade forward, blast finisher - Stun break

 

 

By the six i pray that this will never come to pass. this would completely destroy thief for me and i would have to leave please never do this Anet please just dont

[FreyaMagnus.8157]

while daredevil is in the okay-ish state, i've seen some post talking about how boring their mechanics are. So i have a concept that i believe would make daredevil great again . Inspired from Moba games which is Dota 2 and Heroes of newerth , and Rising force online.

 

# "Weakening Charge's Jingu Mastery"

Daredevils weakening charge attacks awaken the Jingu Bang's power. Upon the fourth hit of full weakening charge on the same enemy , Daredevils will enter an awakened state for 4 second which replace four of its Staff Ability, this state will be released if one of the replaced ability are used.

 

**Skill [2] Cull**

Spin for a full 360 degree in a lightning fast speed. Deals damage and grants 200 power and quickness for 4 second.

 

**skill [3] Charging Strikes**

Dash forward and destroy everything on its path. Deals damage and apply cripple for 2 second.

 

**skill [4] Smoke bomb**

Throw a smoke bomb on your location. This smoke will blind enemies and maybe destroy projectiles.

 

**skill [5] Hysteria**

Lift your staff in the air and slam it (with quite long animation time, maybe 1.5 sec) . Deals massive damage and daze/knock back an opponent.

 

With this design, spamming skill 2 would be the main rotation for highest input of DPS, skill 3 could be used to chase/dodge some situation, skill 4 will make daredevil more ninja's like and skill 5 will be additional cc.

I think this will not be considered overpowered. To reach the awakened state, you have to spam 4 of full weakening charge which animation will lock you in places, making you vulnerable to many lethal mechanics in fractal/raids. This mechanics fall into category of "great risk great reward".

as for pvp, you rarely hit of those charges attack, so it wont matter that much.

 

As a daredevil main, i wish this spec could be pushed to meta for raids, and this design ,while not overpowered, will give that opportunity.

 

 

TLDR: spamming weakening charge will grant you awakened state and gives you additional ability.

 

[StabbersTheThird.6053]

Super new player disclaimer:

 

Something I noticed with Thief is that it doesn't do anything "best at" or "best of". Yes, mobility is high- however Mesmer now has 4 targeted blinks to stare at. On top of their own stealth, leaps, and dash-to-targets. That is the only thing I see that signals a "maybe tone down", except if we're on par with Mesmer (who I've been told is "best at everything") then we need to do something over our own perhaps?

 

 

 

Note on utilities:

 

 

**Deceptions** (Hide In Shadows, Shadowstep, Blinding Powder, Smoke Screen, Shadow Refuge, and Thieves Guild) and the trait Concealed Defeat seem defensive (except Thieves Guild) and kinda basic. The trait gives you cdr at 20% for Deception skills, and a Smoke Screen on down. Smoke Screen blinds enemy units, up to 5, in a small area and provides a smoke field which is probably only useful with leaps or blast finishers. Blinding Powder is a 1/4 cast time stun breaker (so you break a stun, then you can be stunned again anyway?) that provides 3s stealth, an aoe blind, a blast finisher, and stability. However, with a cast time and a 40s cooldown it doesn't seem to beat out other options with lower cooldowns. 40 seconds is a REALLY long time in a fight or a roam or a gank. And it provides nearly no useful benefits when fighting pve mobs or taking down bosses. Shadowstep on the other hand is good. The drawback is again the long cooldown. Hide in Shadows is a fine ability. Shadow Refuge seems to be for resetting fights on opponents with no circular ring abilities, or for getting hero points. Thieves Guild, with the 180 second cooldown, is just a bad ability. Keep in mind how oddly disoriented this line is. We have a cast time on the abilities except for Shadowstep, the cooldowns range from 25 to 180 seconds, and the effects aren't consistent. We have press a button to gain stealth. We have 2 fields. We have 1 finisher. We have 3 stealths. We have 2 blinds. We have 2 stun breaks. We summon AI.

 

**Opinion** If I were to redesign thief, I would hit here first. Give this a direction. The only skills I would consider are Shadow Refuge, Shadowstep, and Hide in Shadows. Refuge provides healing and group stealth, Shadowstep removes conditions and stuns, and Hide in Shadows mass removes conditions. In contrast, Blinding Powder does nothing really useful with stability since it has a cast time. If I were to use it in PvP, I'd want to use it when I see a big move heading my way, but then I can just use a fully traited Steal instead? Seems bad. Same idea for Smoke Screen, I got a lower cooldown and more frequent ring on my Pistol 5- all Screen has that P5 doesn't is a projectile slayer, but then you can do that by being in stealth. And Thieves Guild is either a gimmick or a prank to me. Perhaps we would make Shadowstep and Hide in Shadows the selfish skills, then the rest would be team utility? If this were the case, Blinding Powder would need a full rework. Smoke Screen could be a non-combo field (Smoke Fields are really bad in my opinion) that grants all allies in a range a projectile shield. Thieves Guild could be dramatically reworked to provide the entire party buffs of some kind, or perhaps a defensive utility or even a kind of "Base" where allies could return to when they need a dot cleanse or a mini heal (with of course an internal cooldown).

 

**Tricks** (Scorpion Wire, Roll For Initiative, Haste, Caltrops, Withdraw, and Dagger Storm) and the trait Trickster seem almost worse. Again, it's kind of aimless. We have a long range pull, a stunbreaking resource refilling evasion skill on a not-too-shabby cooldown for what it does, a stunbreak that grants buffs, a ring that bleeds and cripples on a much worse cooldown for what it does, an evasion that heals and does almost the same thing as the resource roll, and a spin to win that makes you go fast while doing decent damage and slowing enemies with a bouncy twirl. The trait is unpickable honestly. Remove a condition and 20% cdr on a certain type of ~utility~, are competing with buff stealing and more damage. This trait line doesn't want you to pick this either. This line is all about your steal. As for abilities, we have a way to pull enemies to us and a way to get away from enemies (tricky, I guess?), a way to keep enemies on us so they die but also a way to keep enemies at range away, and then a super murder buff. 2 stun breaks, No fields. However, the two roll abilities and the persistence on only bleed and cripple for conditions is great.

 

**Opinion** The two rolls are great. The two skills that give cripple and bleed are great. The Haste and Scorpion Wire are out of place. First off, I think turning Dagger Storm into an ammo ability is better than it would be now. Being able to turn it on only when you need it, and not being in that mode for long would make it actually compete with Basilisk Venom or Shadow Meld (I'm a Deadeye). While I think Haste is great, I think it should retain some synergy with either the rolling idea, or the bleed/cripple idea. Same with Scorpion Wire. The utilities seem at odds with themselves. Enemies close, enemies far. Enemies slow, me fast, but not too fast.

 

**Venoms, Signets, and opinions** Honestly, not much to say. These are all striaght forward and viable. I think a little nudge make them useful on their own. If I'm bursting someone, but can't grab the Deadly Arts line, the Poison Venom reduces healing, or the Skale venom gives Vulnerability, or Devourer venom gives immobilize. Signets are just always good if you need the boost in that direction. And the traits they have are both viable, and desirable. Problem is that they compete with traits that also go in their own builds. I personally don't see a reason to get these traits, but I'm sure a small nudge in their direction makes them fantastic.

 

**Trap Skills** There is no heal or ultimate Trap (? what ?), the abilities (Tripwire, Needle Trap, Shadow Trap, and Ambush) are almost there... sorta, and the trait Deadly Trapper is valid (but again, competes with far better skills). This one has a goal, but the goal has problems. It's almost there though. Venoms do well because they emphasize "Hey, I wanna do conditions and lockdown" and then they do it. Signets do well because they emphasize quick strikes and power play, then they do it. Trap skills are mixed. Functionally, it all makes sense. Knock the target down, immobilize their movement, reduce their healing, then teleport to them (btw, that teleport almost never works unless you are sitting around a corner, comment later) to finish the helpless prey off. However, what build goes with this? Am I going power? Then why the bleed condition? Why not confusion or torment which further incapacitate the target? You say "pick it up in Trickery", and I say that's an awful idea. I don't want to use two trait lines to make only a partial idea work. My target is down, great. Then they stun break, cleanse conditions, whistle a tune, and walk off. Perhaps you only use one? All have 1/2s cast time. That's not going to work when an opponent is dropping a 1/4 stun on you or worse killing you. And then you have to return to it somehow. Perhaps venoms? They only strike once, and only Tripwire and Needle Trap, and if I'm using Venoms to make Trap work then I should just use more venoms. Maybe, we use Shadow Trap and Ambush? Shadow Trap doesn't work that well. It's like Shortbow 5, but somehow worse. Dragonhunter and Ranger trap skills have the potential to kill the opponent on the spot.

 

**Opinion** I'm not sure. I think the introduction of a heal or ultimate trap would be a good start. I think choosing power or condition is a good start. I think bug fixing Shadow Trap is a good start. I think Thief needs a style of trap all its own. Dragonhunter destroys you with power traps. Ranger with condition. Thief traps destroy you through determined lockdown? Tripwire [Trap] stays, Needle Trap swaps Bleed for Torment, Shadow Trap is changed to strip the target of buffs and inflict confusion, and Ambush becomes Dart Trap where the darts fire 3 shots in order of .5 second stun-> .25 second daze->.5 second float. Dart Trap obviously has a much longer cooldown. This makes the traps less confusing. Target hits traps, proceeds to get chain lockdowned. Definitely would need testing, but I think our traps should heavily encourage pre-planning over "stack all traps here" especially since they are the only LINE traps.

 

 

 

Anway, this is my initial opinion. I think Daredevil and Deadeye are beautifully and fantastically done :D!

[Zawn.9647]

i would make stealth like World of Warcraft where you can't stealth while in combat - also give a long CD skill to be able to break this rule 1 per fight (like 30-45s cooldown)

stealth out of combat would be a long duration like 10s+

[SnowHawk.3615]

Buff the class. It has no place in a zerg unless you're commander sniping, and most people are too afraid to duel alone now they need an entourage.

 

 

[Legatus.3608]

The main difference between a thief and a ranger or mesmer is the thief steal mechanic. Like a ranger has his pet and mesmer has clones, thief has steal.

 

I think steal needs to be reworked into something more meaningful and more impactful than it is now. For example stealing could actually disable the weapon skills (1-5) of the victim (mesmer lets say) and grant those to the thief (using the mesmer stats in case he's condi and you're power etc).

 

That might be too broken but I think something along those lines. I don't really like the current steal mechanic. I feel like the only reason missing steal is bad right now is because of the traits tied to it and not because the steal itself matters. Maybe stealing could grant the thief 20% bonus stats and take 20% from the victim and disable one skill on the bar for a short duration

[Lonami.2987]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> The main difference between a thief and a ranger or mesmer is the thief steal mechanic. Like a ranger has his pet and mesmer has clones, thief has steal.

>

> I think steal needs to be reworked into something more meaningful and more impactful than it is now. For example stealing could actually disable the weapon skills (1-5) of the victim (mesmer lets say) and grant those to the thief (using the mesmer stats in case he's condi and you're power etc).

>

> That might be too broken but I think something along those lines. I don't really like the current steal mechanic. I feel like the only reason missing steal is bad right now is because of the traits tied to it and not because the steal itself matters. Maybe stealing could grant the thief 20% bonus stats and take 20% from the victim and disable one skill on the bar for a short duration

 

I have been thinking about making a new round of redesigns for most professions, now that I'm probably moving engineer from "kits as the mechanic" to "turrets as the mechanic". That led me back to thief.

 

My previous idea was to replace steal with a "customizable belt" where you equip various quick access tricks, but in the end, that's just skills. The cool thing about mechanics is giving them a special gimmick that can't be found in slot skills. The Deadeye might have the answer I'm looking for, through the Deadeye's Mark.

 

The new idea would be as follows:

 

* Remove Steal. Now we have a clean and empty mechanic bar.

* The new mechanic is called the **Shadow Mark**. Located at mechanic slot F1, it works similarly to Deadeye's Mark. You find an enemy target, and then apply it to it.

* Mechanic skills F2, F3, and F4 contain various tricks, and are only active after you apply a Shadow Mark.

* You can customize your Shadow Mark with 5 different options. A mark swap is also available, so you can equip a total of 2 marks at once. Mark is swapped with mechanic skill F5.

 

These are the five Shadow Mark options and their roles, each tied to a trait line and slot skill family:

 

* **Mark of the Butcher:** Deal more direct damage to the marked target.

* **Mark of the Deceiver:** Enables shadowsteps back and forth between the marked target and your original location.

* **Mark of the Poisoner:** The marked target is more vulnerable to poisons. Good synergy with venoms.

* **Mark of the Thief:** Steal boons from the marked target.

* **Mark of the Trickster:** The marked target is more vulnerable to crowd control.

 

Once you apply a mark, mechanic skills F2, F3, and F4 become available, letting you "play" with your victim. For example, these would be the skills for Mark of the Deceiver:

 

* F2 - Gain stealth.

* F3 - Shadowstep to marked target.

* F4 - Shadowstep away from the marked target.

 

Marks end when the timer expires, the target dies, or when the thief deals a **Shadow Strike**. To enable the shadow strike, press F1 once again a while after applying the mark. Your first weapon skill will be replaced with a new chain skill, different for each weapon. These skills replace Stealth Attacks, which are now gone. If you successfully complete the whole chain attack, the shadow mark will get a reduced cooldown. Using shadow strikes against an unmarked target will do reduced damage.

 

The idea around shadow strikes is that the thief gets ready to perform a deadly attack against his victim, who should try to parry or dodge it. The marked target can also remove his mark by personally applying crowd control against the thief (allied crowd control won't work). Shadow Strikes also take a few seconds to activate, so thieves can't just spam it in close combat, and reflect in the mark's visual symbol, so the victim can see what's coming for him.

 

What about elite specializations? I'll use the same examples as the last version. As a bonus, every elite specialization would gain a new exclusive mark option.

 

* **Daredevil:** Marks can now be placed in the ground, affecting anyone standing on them. Shadow Strikes become area of effect attacks. You can now customize your dodge ability, and the new Mark of the Daredevil increases your endurance gain.

* **Deadeye:** You can now mark multiple enemies at once, and deal with them simultaneously. Shadow Strikes are no longer chain attacks, becoming channeled attacks instead. The longer you channel, the higher the damage; but be careful, the longer you hold, the higher the risk your enemy runs away or interrupts you. The new Mark of the Deadeye boosts your attack speed.

* **Assassin:** Using a mark now equips a murder kit, replacing your weapon skills. Claws for butcher, Throwing Knives for deceiver, Blowpipe for poisoner, Chain and Sickle for thief, and Chain Sticks for trickster. Shadow Strikes are performed with the kits now. No new mark option.

* **Changeling:** Using a mark applies it to all enemies nearby, and it also transforms the thief into an ooze-like monster, gaining alternate versions for both the weapon attacks and shadow strikes, as well as an attribute boost. This transformation changes depending on the mark used, and ends whenever the timer runs out, all marked enemies die, or all remaining enemies remove their marks. The new Mark of the Changeling gives you defensive abilities.

* **Spiritbinder:** Using a mark now summons tortured bloodstone souls to do your bidding. Shadow Strikes are no longer player attacks, and instead, you now command spirits to haunt and attack their targets. The new mark of the spiritbinder gives you life-stealing abilities.

 

I think this is far better than what we have now, and also an improvement from my previous belt-based idea.

[Isle of Stars.3049]

I just want D/D to be reworked. Death Blossom seems to be out of place.

[Nodius Caelestis.3892]

As the initial character I created and main that I play for stories (and occasionally other things), the only problem I have with Thief is the Steal.

 

Personally, I believe that the mechanic would have a better feel in using it if it had the same sort of "consistent gameplay" ("gameplay" not "effect") as "Deadeye's Mark", the consistency in "stolen and ready to deploy at a single press when the effect is needed". Meanwhile, Thieves and Daredevils are left with a Shadowstep to "steal" a variety of random items (the Profession that is bad at their one job) that players need to check time and time again for how it's cast. I understand that it fits thematically with Thief (not so sure about Daredevils so how about a new mechanic for them), but it's not exactly a fun mechanic to use.

 

Anyway, why should Steal be limited to physical items in a magical world of mice and talking cabbages that fly giant ships to fight a tentacle snake made of plants.

 

Thief - "Steal":

- Shadowstep to your foe and steal from them.

- Guardian - Flames of Justice: You are empowered by the flames of justice. Cure conditions on you. You inflict burning on the next 3 attacks.

- Revenant - Essence of the Mists: You caught a glimpse of the Mists. You apply chill, vulnerability, and weakness to foes around you.

- Warrior - Voice of Inspiration: You shouted words of courage. You and nearby allies gain vigor, might, and swiftness.

- Engineer - Secret Blueprints: You created a malfunctioning prototype. Launch and blind foes around you.

- Ranger - Seed of Bonding: You planted the seed. You and nearby allies gain regeneration and stability.

- Thief - Favour of the Shadows: You won approval from the shadows over your foe. You gain stealth and reveal nearby foes.

- Elementalist - Elemental Affinity: You gained an understanding of the elements. You confuse your foe and gain resistance.

- Mesmer - Shadow of the Phantasm: You learnt some new tricks from another trickster. Your next 3 attacks would attack twice.

- Necromancer - Souls in Torment: You rescued some souls. You apply torment and fear to foes around you.

- Stealing from NPCs would result in a variety of Stolen Skills that match thematically.

 

As for Daredevil, maybe they should Shadowstep to their foes and prepare "stunts" with different animations and applied effects. "Stunt" just feels better thematically than "Steal".

 

(P.S. I'm waiting for maybe a Canthan Greatsword Assassin with a Ninjutsu mechanic that makes players plan rotations for different effects)

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Nodius Caelestis.3892" said:

> As the initial character I created and main that I play for stories (and occasionally other things), the only problem I have with Thief is the Steal.

>

> Personally, I believe that the mechanic would have a better feel in using it if it had the same sort of "consistent gameplay" ("gameplay" not "effect") as "Deadeye's Mark", the consistency in "stolen and ready to deploy at a single press when the effect is needed". Meanwhile, Thieves and Daredevils are left with a Shadowstep to "steal" a variety of random items (the Profession that is bad at their one job) that players need to check time and time again for how it's cast. I understand that it fits thematically with Thief (not so sure about Daredevils so how about a new mechanic for them), but it's not exactly a fun mechanic to use.

>

> Anyway, why should Steal be limited to physical items in a magical world of mice and talking cabbages that fly giant ships to fight a tentacle snake made of plants.

>

> Thief - "Steal":

> - Shadowstep to your foe and steal from them.

> - Guardian - Flames of Justice: You are empowered by the flames of justice. Cure conditions on you. You inflict burning on the next 3 attacks.

> - Revenant - Essence of the Mists: You caught a glimpse of the Mists. You apply chill, vulnerability, and weakness to foes around you.

> - Warrior - Voice of Inspiration: You shouted words of courage. You and nearby allies gain vigor, might, and swiftness.

> - Engineer - Secret Blueprints: You created a malfunctioning prototype. Launch and blind foes around you.

> - Ranger - Seed of Bonding: You planted the seed. You and nearby allies gain regeneration and stability.

> - Thief - Favour of the Shadows: You won approval from the shadows over your foe. You gain stealth and reveal nearby foes.

> - Elementalist - Elemental Affinity: You gained an understanding of the elements. You confuse your foe and gain resistance.

> - Mesmer - Shadow of the Phantasm: You learnt some new tricks from another trickster. Your next 3 attacks would attack twice.

> - Necromancer - Souls in Torment: You rescued some souls. You apply torment and fear to foes around you.

> - Stealing from NPCs would result in a variety of Stolen Skills that match thematically.

>

> As for Daredevil, maybe they should Shadowstep to their foes and prepare "stunts" with different animations and applied effects. "Stunt" just feels better thematically than "Steal".

>

> (P.S. I'm waiting for maybe a Canthan Greatsword Assassin with a Ninjutsu mechanic that makes players plan rotations for different effects)

 

Steal was suppose to steal the target's weapon and we get to use it as if we picked up an environmental weapon (e.g. steal from warrior gives us greatsword). However, the Elementalist cannibalized that mechanic with their Conjure Elemental weapons so Steal was left with stealing random crap (except stealing from Mesmers and Rangers).

 

Thief's mechanic has always been an afterthought since release. Shadowstep is still broken, they added Revealed that shuts down the whole Shadow Arts traitline instead of doing something comprehensive to counter stealth, and Steal as you said - all because they are too busy tweaking their favorite professions to bother fixing the Thief.

 

The Deadeye has its own issues like losing Steal. The decision to replace Steal with DE Mark is a poor decision in my opinion. Since DE is a Thief specialization, DE should also have Steal. Steal should have been a staple skill that defines the Thief's identity. Losing Steal makes melee build really clunky as a DE. Is the profession still a Thief without steal?

 

I don't really agree with some of the stolen items you've posted (e.g. Revenant stolen item should apply Torment and Necro should apply Chill), but it's a good start. The idea of Steal is stealing something that can be used against your target. For example, stealing from Warrior should give us a 2H hammer or a Shield with the same effect as the Branch with a skill Bash (similar to Branch Bash); "Launch your foe".

[Psycoprophet.8107]

a lot of the professions these days have a lot of passive and active defences ontop of the high sustain they’ve also been given blocks and invulnerability to go with the ever increasing mobility that’s being handed out(except for poor spooky man) the thief is now good damage,low sustain unless vault and bound spam,invigorating prec and sig of malice is good for Tyria but garbage vs hot or human players(high damage,aoe and conditions way out paces the sustain). the players better off avoiding hits in the first place causing a spam of the few evade skills which for how glassy thief is isn’t enough,not against these other classes that hit as hard or harder and can stay in the fight far longer not only due to class machanic that suit the class like high hps,high toughness and high dps but are also given better utilities to stay in fight blocks and invulnerability traits,which u would think would be given to glassy classes more so than already tough scrappy ones lol to avoid the constant need to reset fights which isn’t fun for anyone if it’s only option

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Stealth should be used in moderation as a means to get the jump on someone or as a quick way to escape a hit and not be sustainable like it is now with SA Deadeyes, such a cheese machanic that will only hold them back as far as ballancing descisions are concerned and that’s unfortunate and that’s from a player that mostly plays thief