Lonami.2987

> @"Lonami.2987" said: > It's been quite a while. Going for a soft redesign this time: > > --- > > ##Mechanic bar redesign > > > > An image is worth a thousand words, but just in case: > > * **F1:** [swap Pets](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pet_swap) (formerly at F4, second pet is now displayed on screen). > * **F2:** Attack My Target (formerly at F1). > * **F3:** [beast skill #1](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beast) (formerly at F2). > * **F4:** Return to Me (formerly at F3). > * **F5:** Beast skill #2 (new skill). > * Stow Pet / Activate Pet (no hotkey on default, can be assigned one manually). > * Guard / Avoid Combat (no hotkey on default, can be assigned one manually). > > --- > > ##Changes to the pet mechanic > > Pets are the central part of the ranger's playstyle, but they have quite a few problems: > > * There's way too many pets, 55 in total. Pets are divided in 18 families, and members of the same families are almost identical. > * Pet skins are connected to specific beast skills, and you can't choose their skins freely. There's dozen of unavailable pet skins in the game as well. > * Pets aren't very engaging, having only one [beast skill](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beast) rangers can activate manually. > > And this is my take on how to solve those issues: > > * Unify beast skills and take the amount of pets down to 18, one per family. Redistribute [archetypes](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Archetype) across the new pets. > * Transform the different pet models into cosmetic skins you can equip freely. Transform the missing NPC models into pet skins as well. > * Make beast skills more useful, and give each pet a second beast skill. > > --- > > ##Elite specialization mechanics and tradeoffs > > The addition of a second beast skill changes the tradeoff situation, letting us take a new approach. This is what we have now: > > * **Druid:** Gain **Celestial Avatar**, but your pet's attributes are weaker. Transform into a [Celestial Avatar](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Avatar) to gain alternate weapon skills. > * **Soulbeast:** Gain **Beastmode**, but you cannot swap pets in combat. Activate [beastmode](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beastmode) to gain alternate mechanic skills. > > And this would be the new version: > > * **Druid:** Gain **Celestial Avatar** instead of **Beast skill #2**. Transform into a Celestial Avatar to gain alternate weapon skills and an alternate **Beast skill #1**. > * **Soulbeast:** Gain **Beastmode** instead of **Beast skill #2**. Activate Beastmode to gain alternate mechanic skills. > > --- > > ##Other changes > > Few extra notes worth mentioning: > > * Activating [Celestial Avatar](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Avatar) will change your pet's appearance as well, turning it into an [astral creature](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Astral_creature). Internal pet skills mechanics and attributes won't be affected by this transformation. > * Swapping pets is now possible while [beastmode](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beastmode) is on. Beastmode's visual effect will change its color depending on the active archetype. > * Replace off-hand dagger with off-hand sword. Soulbeasts now gain the ability to wield daggers in both hands. Daggers will gain alternate weapon skills upon activation of Beastmode. > * Replace shortbow with rifle. Rename the Longbow weapon type back into just Bow. Remove the Shortbow weapon type, and integrate the orphaned weapons and skins into the Bow. [More on weapon type changes here.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/1074/new-weapon-types-study-knuckles-polearms-spears-relics-and-more/p1) > > --- > > That's it, thanks for reading! Few elite specialization ideas, based on the previous mechanic bar redesign: --- --- ##Elite specialization ideas * **Bloodhound:** Gain **Pet Focus** instead of **Pet Swap**. Both pets are deployed in combat simultaneously, pet focus letting you command one pet at a time. **Beast skill #2** will be tied to the secondary pet. * **Waywatcher:** Gain **Wild Flash** instead of **Beast skill #2**, and **Wild Vault** instead of **dodge rolling**. Use Wild Flash to instantly swap positions with your pet. **Wild Strike** skills become available for a short time right after using Wild Flash. * **Treesinger:** Gain **Hatchlings** instead of **Pets**. Hatchlings are smaller versions of your own pets, weaker individually, but stronger in numbers. Not getting into other details, only the mechanics. > @"InsaneQR.7412" said: > @"Lonami.2987" nope. I stopped working on it due to IRL occupation and new project revolving arround Gw2 tabletop. > > But i really like your suggestions. Solid ideas, lots of streamlining and way easier to function with E-specs. Glad you liked them. I would love to do something like this for every other profession, but I don't know if I'll ever get to it lol. > @"JorneMormel.9850" said: > Start by improving the pet mechanic. Specifically: > > F1 Attack/(Toggle)Heel > and > F3 Move To (Ground targeted) > > It would make pet controls more intuitive and allow the option to path pets out of harm's way, without requiring too many button presses and overcoming the fact that Guard/Avoid Combat cannot be hotkeyed, which would be a welcome QoL update if it did. > > Axe (Mostly OH #4) > Dagger (MH lacks cleave) > Short Bow (Lacks damage potential on flanking which is hard enough to pull off in any competitive environment, and is still outclassed in PvE.) > Staff > Sword > > All need love. So does Druid and I wish pets were an optional mechanic for them, too. Stowing a pet for skill effects and attribute increases would even improve core. > > And give Soulbeast the second pet back, but instead design the drawback that your pet appears with the same hitpoints as it had before when leaving Beastmode, and when you switch into Beastmode, if your pet's health % is lower than yours, lose health equal to 50% of the difference. > Losing the second pet lowered the skill ceiling by so much, it's not even funny. I think the best approach is to make pets more vulnerable, but faster to swap as well. Make pet rotation faster, kinda like elementalist attunements and revenant legends. After all, the less time they stay around, the fewer problems the AI will give. > @"The Boz.2038" said: > Pets absolutely need to be crunched up into the five Soulbeast archetypes. Within an archetype, all pets are identical; they're just skins for you to pick, with the same stats, skills, Soulbeast boosts, etc. Also, Legendary Pets! Yay! > I dislike how the Druid is designed about team content, and is really, truly painful to play outside it. Any redisign of it is welcome. > Indeed, they definitely need to update traits to make solo druid viable.

> @"Kodama.6453" said: > > @"Lonami.2987" said: > > * They don't need a new Personal Story, and the old stories don't need to be adapted for them. New races get a short introduction, and then start their story right as the expansion begins. Previous stories are not available (play the old races if you want to experience them). > > How does that work with the story? Currently, it makes sense since the story builds up to our character becoming Aurene's champion to bring balance to the world. > > Now you want to throw in a new race, which was not part of the pact previously, and they are Aurene's champion out of nowhere? And the forthgoing story keeps treating us as the guy who was always at Aurene's side since her birth, yet we were not around when that actually happened? > > If the story is supposed to make any sense with a new race, then you have to add them retrospectively. Not just as a random soldier who joined the fight when we travelled towards Cantha. There's many ways to solve that problem. Make Aurene recruit multiple new champions, for example. So the original player character would no longer be "Aurene's favorite", and would have to fight beside other champions, players and NPCs. To top it off, make Aurene name Caithe her prime champion, while the commander steps back to recover or whatever. Then you have a situation where the original commander is demoted to a new position, while other new characters get promoted to that same position as well. The commander is no longer the "best ever", and there's multiple other commanders running around as well. New races can then get a tutorial where Aurene contacts and recruits them using their dreams, then they leave their homes and join the rest of the races in the main storyline. Bonus points if the zones of the expansion have level scaling, allowing you to level from 1 to 80 without missing the new endgame content. > @"Oxstar.7643" said: > Finally, I don't think racial skills should be removed. I think they should be improved. I understand that the reason they are not up to snuff with the rest of the skills is because ANet did not want one race to dominate certain classes. But if the skills were balanced with and against each other it could work. At the very least I think it shouid take a spin in the think tank. But, I also think it would be very interesting if you could study the ways of the other races, and if not learn their racial skills get some sort of passive instead. I think they should turn them into novelties or masteries. Definitely not part of profession gameplay, that's for sure. > @"Touchme.1097" said: > Goat beastman or scheletal redeemed undead. > A lot of players would like to play undead, I have seen GW2 streamers trying another game just to play this race. I feel like undead would work better as some kind of effect/tonic/infusion for the already playable races. Unless you mean undead constructs, like the [awakened zombies](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Awakened), those would need to be their own race indeed.

> @"Svarty.8019" said: > Let's get rid of Unblockables. > > What's the point? It's not like people are saying "Oh that person is blocking, I'll use my unblockable". That level of gameplay doesn't exist. Unblockable just helps unskilled players with their random ability spamming. > > /tut /rolleyes > > I don't want [unblockable](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable_(effect)) removed, but I would love to see it transformed into a boon. That would solve most of its problems imo. Bonus points if they turn [battle Scars](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Battle_Scars) into their own "vampiric" boon as well, leaving us with 12+2=14 boons and 14 conditions.

It's been quite a while. Going for a soft redesign this time: --- ##Mechanic bar redesign An image is worth a thousand words, but just in case: * **F1:** [swap Pets](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pet_swap) (formerly at F4, second pet is now displayed on screen). * **F2:** Attack My Target (formerly at F1). * **F3:** [beast skill #1](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beast) (formerly at F2). * **F4:** Return to Me (formerly at F3). * **F5:** Beast skill #2 (new skill). * Stow Pet / Activate Pet (no hotkey on default, can be assigned one manually). * Guard / Avoid Combat (no hotkey on default, can be assigned one manually). --- ##Changes to the pet mechanic Pets are the central part of the ranger's playstyle, but they have quite a few problems: * There's way too many pets, 55 in total. Pets are divided in 18 families, and members of the same families are almost identical. * Pet skins are connected to specific beast skills, and you can't choose their skins freely. There's dozen of unavailable pet skins in the game as well. * Pets aren't very engaging, having only one [beast skill](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beast) rangers can activate manually. And this is my take on how to solve those issues: * Unify beast skills and take the amount of pets down to 18, one per family. Redistribute [archetypes](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Archetype) across the new pets. * Transform the different pet models into cosmetic skins you can equip freely. Transform the missing NPC models into pet skins as well. * Make beast skills more useful, and give each pet a second beast skill. --- ##Elite specialization mechanics and tradeoffs The addition of a second beast skill changes the tradeoff situation, letting us take a new approach. This is what we have now: * **Druid:** Gain **Celestial Avatar**, but your pet's attributes are weaker. Transform into a [Celestial Avatar](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Avatar) to gain alternate weapon skills. * **Soulbeast:** Gain **Beastmode**, but you cannot swap pets in combat. Activate [beastmode](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beastmode) to gain alternate mechanic skills. And this would be the new version: * **Druid:** Gain **Celestial Avatar** instead of **Beast skill #2**. Transform into a Celestial Avatar to gain alternate weapon skills and an alternate **Beast skill #1**. * **Soulbeast:** Gain **Beastmode** instead of **Beast skill #2**. Activate Beastmode to gain alternate mechanic skills. --- ##Other changes Few extra notes worth mentioning: * Activating [Celestial Avatar](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Avatar) will change your pet's appearance as well, turning it into an [astral creature](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Astral_creature). Internal pet skills mechanics and attributes won't be affected by this transformation. * Swapping pets is now possible while [beastmode](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beastmode) is on. Beastmode's visual effect will change its color depending on the active archetype. * Replace off-hand dagger with off-hand sword. Soulbeasts now gain the ability to wield daggers in both hands. Daggers will gain alternate weapon skills upon activation of Beastmode. * Replace shortbow with rifle. Rename the Longbow weapon type back into just Bow. Remove the Shortbow weapon type, and integrate the orphaned weapons and skins into the Bow. [More on weapon type changes here.](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/1074/new-weapon-types-study-knuckles-polearms-spears-relics-and-more/p1) --- That's it, thanks for reading! > @"InsaneQR.7412" said: > @""Lonami.2987" > Just to keep you up to date. > I am still working on my ranger rework. > Part 1 pets are done. > Currently working on core ranger. > > My elite spec ideas are a little bit fleshed out already. > > For druid i chose to give it a more revenant like feel to it. > You have sun or moon form and your pet has the other. > You can produce either sun or moon force up until you hit a max were you have to force swap. > Sun is responsible for dmg and boons and moon is responsible for heal and CC. > > Petswap is replaced with aspect swap. > > F5 is still celestial avatar but has two forms too and is responsible for consuming astral force. > While the utilities which are now aspects (like the herld utilities) and weaponskills generate said force. > Goal is to juggle the energy and constantly generate it while consume it. > Adapt on the fly and support your allies with boons and heals. > > Depending on moon or sun form your pets skills change and your mark skills do too. > > For soulbeast i do not chabge the mechanic very much except that you no longer have 2 pets and that you gain glyphs as utilities instead of stances, so your archetypes matters a bit more. > > Did you ever get to finish it? > @"Revolution.5409" said: > I like the current status of the ranger, but if I could change something I would change. > Core ranger: > I would like to make changes to pets, I would like some pets to be faster in launching their skills (f2 wolf / birds for example) and that the user can use every skill of the pets whenever he wants, without relying on AI. > The pet is part of our damage, but somehow they work as two separate subjects, the traits like Fortifying Bond should be reworked, I think it is wrong to have to choose a trait to share the boons with part of our damage, I add that the minor traits Marksman could get buffs because at the moment they are pretty useless. > Druid: > Restore Seed of Life, allow this ability to remove 2 conditions again, so as to give an alternative to WS for cleaning conditions and reviewing people using glyphs, Celestial avatar, I would remove the ground targetting from skill 1 and give a greater range of action at skills 2 and 4. > I would not change anything at Soulbeast I like it. xD > > I hope in the future there is the possibility of obtaining a speclization without pets, I consider it almost impossible to make them competitive within zergs, it is the only plausible way in my opinion that we could obtain a valid zerg build. If you're going for a soft redesign, I think removing the pet is pretty much unviable. I think the best approach would be to reconfigure the pet swap and turn it into part of the primal rotation, similar to elementalist attunement swaps and revenant legend swaps. > @"GaijinGuy.8476" said: > I would love to be able to customize pet appearance. Skins or even cosmetic armor pieces or something like that. Check [this thread](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/114460/pet-management-panel-redesign-idea-wardrobe-for-pet-skins-plus-free-beast-skill-selection/p1), you might like it :D.

> @"Bellbirds.1679" said: > PoF brought new hair and faces for humans, but nothing (I think) for other races. Anyone reckon we'll get something with EoD? And what would you like to see? I'd really love to see Anet fill in the the lack of 'basic' hairstyles, as in long straight, long curly, long wavy, medium lengths, short lengths, etc for all races. I currently use the straight with a strand close to the eye hairstyle on one of my charr and just imagine the rest is hidden under her coat, but would like to see an actual long version of that hairstyle. > > I would also really love to see new body types added, especially the one you see on Omahkhan cubs/just a very 'scrawny' option for Charr, for when you want to play a very physically weak magic user/a runt. I'd also love to see more muscular options for females of all races. > > In terms of faces I think it would be quite nice to receive more HD remakes of the vanilla faces and horns while still having the originals available. A lot of them are very nicely designed but you can see the age. Aside from Canthan/Asian options for the humans, I'd like to see new sylvari stuff, based on the [sidhe](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Sidhe)/[wardens](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warden); assuming they don't become their own (playable) race, of course. And let's never forget asura and sylvari beards!

> @"anduriell.6280" said: > Before talking about a new spec, ranger needs the class fixed so the actual specs are fun to play. > To be adding more over a bad and broken foundation doesn't work as we already seen with the last two specs. Same dilemma as with the pets, before asking for more pets i would ask to fix the pets we already have. > This is the problem with all core professions, the foundations weren't ready for elite specializations, and we're carrying those problems over without fixing them properly. In the case of ranger, they need to redesign the pet mechanic once and for all. Give more control over the pets, improve the AI, etc. If it were on my hands, I would integrate pet skills into weapon skills. Kinda like how the mesmer controls illusions through weapons, and how the guardian summons symbols using weapons as well. It's pointless for a beastmaster archetype not to factor his companions as part of its direct combat. > @"The Boz.2038" said: > Beastmaster. No pet swap; both pets active at same time. Land use spear as weapon, medium or melee range skills. Trainings as new skill types; hybridizations of stances and preparations that affect your pets only, and you through some traits. Heavy use of the attack of opportunity mechanic. Medium mobility, but lots of mobility control, chase and peel. Spirit Of The Pack elite calls two additional spirit copies of each of your pets for a short time. I think this is the most likely approach we'll see. Alternatively, some kind of "take manual control of the pet" mechanic (this is what soulbeast should have been).

> @"artcreator.4859" said: > It's just too easy, been playing with new people and they wanted to quit due to the first leveling maps, its just a steam roll, walk up, press 1 on key board, move on, It's a great game, but man the level of quality from the new stuff and the old is massive, almost 2 different games. love the game though and looking forward to next xpac, hopefully it can fix this so the game can have a better future. End of Dragons needs a new starting experience, preferably at Cantha with the new zones, through level scaling. Content from 2012 is just bad compared to modern standards, and drives new players away, specially the younger audiences.

> @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"Lonami.2987" said: > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > @"Lonami.2987" said: > > > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > > > More of my candidates: > > > > > * Nornbear/Svanir for obvious reasons (GS, MH Axe or MH Dagger) > > > > > * Balthazar (may be too close to "human", and we already have Shiro) > > > > > * Menzies as "Legendary Nightmare" (same problem as Balthazar, may be too closely tied to human) > > > > > * Varesh (Margonite, very unlikely as she's too close to human and Mallyx/demon) > > > > > * Torivos (dual axes, Legendary Envoy, could be a problem since he used to be human in the past) > > > > > > > > > > Out of them Svanir seems to be the most likely. Fits the evil role for balance, is part of a race that isn't represented in the revenants current lineup (Norn) and would fit into a selfish dps role (Glint and Kalla have been more on the supportive side IMO). > > > > > > > > The norn legend, if we ever get one, would be [Asgeir Dragonrender](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Asgeir_Dragonrender). Svanir was just a random dude who got corrupted and had no power or relevance of his own. His only merit is being the first norn to get corrupted by Jormag. > > > > > > > > Legends should represent characters who had a great impact on history, plus a rich background that lets them channel unique powers not available otherwise. Also, they don't have to be GW1 characters, there's centuries of history, before and after GW1, be more original guys. > > > > > > > > Also, I don't think characters who were overpowered in lore work well, since they don't provide a realistic and enjoyable interaction. Shiro, Kalla, Ventari... you can have normal conversations with them. Mallyx and Glint are just terrible, they have nothing interesting to say since they're supposed to be god-tier creatures who know all the secrets of the universe. > > > > > > > > > > Asgeir Dragonrender's only merit was fleeing from Jormag after being scared off due to Jormag threatening him. We know that and the Mists know, too. There's no unique power there, unless you want a "Legendary Fugitive" or "Legendary Liar". The Mists don't care what the Norn say about Asgeir, as the Mists know the truth about his actions. What is or what isn't noteworthy to be a Legend is decided on what leaves an imprint in the Mists. > > > > > > In comparison to that, Svanir is responsible for the creation of a whole cult of followers. The Sons of Svanir that could only exists due to the role Svanir played, warped the whole society of the Norn. His influence can easily be compared to the influence the Tablet of Ventari had over the Sylvari. > > > > > > We also already know that Svanir was relevant enough to leave imprints in the Mists, as one of his echoes is part of the Forest of Niflhel. > > > So this "random dude" has already been more relevant to the Mists than Asgeir. > > > > > > Of course Legends don't have to be from GW1. They also don't have to be dead. They just need to have left an imprint in the Mists. > > > It's still easier to guess what left an imprint in the Mists if we have seen the actions first hand. I know what Svanir did and how he influenced the generations of Norn that came after him. Just like how (Brandor and) Kalla's actions influenced the following generations of Charr. But we can't be sure that everything that has been told by unreliable narrators, which most NPC's and mortal characters fall into, is true. Asgeir is the perfect example for this. > > > > > > Edit: Also, wouldn't Asgeir being powered up by the Spirits of the Wild count as overpowered in lore? He did oneshot Jormag's champion with their power, after all. That wouldn't make the Legend about him, though, but about the Spirits of the Wild (similiar situation to Ventari and the Tablet). So since Mallyx and Glint are unfit to be Legends in your opinion, Asgeir and the SotW would be, too. > > > > Asgeir Dragonrender is the most famous norn hero, and also the founder of Hoelbrak. He literally saved the norn race from extinction; or cursed them into servitude, recent revelations considered (what really happened is not clear enough yet). Asgeir was also a mortal, who used a jotun scroll and the power of the Spirits of the Wild; he wasn't overpowered, since those weren't his powers to begin with. He's also the only known mortal to have injured Jormag. > > > > In the other hand, the only thing Svanir did was get corrupted, then killed. He did nothing useful or worthwhile in life. Svanir didn't create the cult either, he had nothing to do with the Sons of Svanir, those guys decided to pay a homage to him for some reason, long after he got killed. > > > > Exactly, Asgeir is a Norn hero, not a Mist legend. Just a legend in Norn tales, but not reality. He made up a legendary lie to make the Norn move south. He has no unique power and was only able to injure Jormag with the help of the Spirits of the Wild. The only legendary part about his tale is the power of the Spirits of the Wild. He isn‘t fit to be a legend, unless the legend is about his legendary lie to the norn, or his legendary cowardness in front of Jormag. > > Ventari and the Tablet of Ventari only gained relevance as part of guiding a new race, long after Ventari‘s death. The same way Svanir, who we already know has echoes in the Mists, is responsible for the Sons of Svanir. It doesn‘t actually matter what your opinion about Svanir is here, since it is already a fact that the Mists made copies of Svanir and therefore gained Legend status in the Mists. We see one in the Forest of Niflhel. That echo is enough for a revenant to be able to learn to channel him. So for someone that „did nothing useful or worthwhile in life“ he‘s already more legendary than Asgeir by Mist standards. Ventari's teachings have forged an entire race, it's pretty much like Jesus for the sylvari. It works well as a semi-religious deity because he's not an actual god. Actual deities like Balthazar or Owl wouldn't work well as characters you interact with because they lack the "mortal" personality. Ventari does have problems though, since he has no special powers of any kind; fortunately, he has a magical artifact, his tablet, and the legend can focus on that instead. Kalla has a similar problem, but she summons warband members to compensate. Svanir didn't write anything. Svanir didn't leave anything behind. He's just a rabid dunce, who only talks once in GW1. He got unceremoniously killed, and was never a real threat to anyone at all. Also, he's not regarded as a hero, but a martyr. If you want a legend based on an icebrood character, there's dozens of far more interesting options out there. For example, the [Dragonspawn](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragonspawn), one of Jormag's champions who got killed shortly before the game's beginning. Unlike Svanir, he was a real threat who haunted the Shiverpeaks for centuries, killing or corrupting thousands of norn. I don't think dragon minions would be good legends, but still. Also, there's no game indication to define what's a "Mist Legend" or not. I don't think that aspect was ever relevant at all.

> @"Shroud.2307" said: > What are the tradeoffs for each specialization? Here are the ones I know; > > * Scrapper: Reduced maximum health, no access to elite F5 > * Holosmith: No access to elite F5 > > * Reaper: Increased Shroud degeneration > * Scourge: Some traits _(Path of Corruption, Dhuumfire)_ work differently, much higher recharge on Shroud. > > * Daredevil: Reduced range on Steal > * Deadeye: ??? Stolen skills changed ??? > > * Herald: ??? > * Renegade: ??? > > * Druid: Reduced pet damage > * Soulbeast: Only one pet can be used at a time > > * Berserker: Reduced armor > * Spellbreaker: All Bursts count as 2 bars of Adrenaline > > * Dragonhunter: ??? > * Firebrand: ??? > > * Mirage: Endurance bar reduced to 1 > * Chronomancer: ??? Shatters changed ??? > > * Tempest: ??? > * Weaver: ??? > > **Tradeoff** = _a balance achieved between two desirable but incompatible features; a compromise. > "a trade-off between objectivity and relevance"_ > > Which of these elite specs do not have this? I would say a good tradeoff shouldn't affect attributes, just skills. For example, daredevil and mirage replace the dodge ability with a new variant. Chronomancer gets new shatters (even if they're too similar to the originals). Reaper gains an alternate shroud. Dragonhunter and firebrand get virtue variants. This is the way to go. Sadly, core professions weren't built with either tradeoffs or elite specializations in mind, so problems arise pretty easily. They've gone back and given new skills to some of the core professions, like the revenant's Ancient Echo, but that solution won't work for everyone. Ranger, engineer, and elementalist are in the worst positions, mostly due to the lack of space on their mechanic bar. Some elite specialization mechanics are pretty poor too. For example, spellbreaker's Full Counter should work like a "block burst" skill, and change depending on the off-hand weapon you're wielding. Tradeoffs for the sake of tradeoffs (like randomly removing things without actually replacing them, like berserker's primal bursts) are no good either. > @"ThrakathNar.4537" said: > > @"Shroud.2307" said: > > Some of you need to stop comparing professions. A Vitality penalty for example would be a lot more significant if placed on Guardian, Thief, or Elemenalist. Trade-offs will differ between each profession and spec but should have similar degrees of significance. Losing access to Toolbelt F5 _(Holosmith)_ isn't the same significance as losing an Endurance bar _(Mirage),_ and losing access to a core Trait line isn't a trade-off. > > Ok, but what is the end goal of tradeoffs? Ultimately, why do we need them? > If the goal with tradeoffs is that the core profession is not invalidated by the elite specs, then why is considering the traitlines not relevant? An indisputable fact is that guardian has meta builds in at least two gamemodes (PvE and PvP). Doesn't that show that there is an implicit tradeoff within the traitlines to mean that core guard is not invalidated? Surely there's something more to tradeoffs than just nerfing profession mechanics? > > Genuinely curious to hear what you think the goal with tradeoffs should be. Not him, but personally, I think tradeoffs are a mistake. First of all, professions and elite specializations weren't built with those tradeoffs in mind. Some are easy to apply (just replace a mechanic skill) but others don't have anywhere to go without ruining the core experience. I think elite specializations should have remained superior to core professions. Feel free to reinforce the playstyle of said core professions by releasing elite specializations that improve the core mechanics instead of adding new mechanics, and there you go. For example, reaper can be considered necromancer 2.0, so to speak, while scourge is a whole new thing. That doesn't mean the idea of tradeoffs is bad, it's just that they won't work for GW2 without a heavy redesign of the core professions.

> @"Raknar.4735" said: > > @"Lonami.2987" said: > > > @"Raknar.4735" said: > > > More of my candidates: > > > * Nornbear/Svanir for obvious reasons (GS, MH Axe or MH Dagger) > > > * Balthazar (may be too close to "human", and we already have Shiro) > > > * Menzies as "Legendary Nightmare" (same problem as Balthazar, may be too closely tied to human) > > > * Varesh (Margonite, very unlikely as she's too close to human and Mallyx/demon) > > > * Torivos (dual axes, Legendary Envoy, could be a problem since he used to be human in the past) > > > > > > Out of them Svanir seems to be the most likely. Fits the evil role for balance, is part of a race that isn't represented in the revenants current lineup (Norn) and would fit into a selfish dps role (Glint and Kalla have been more on the supportive side IMO). > > > > The norn legend, if we ever get one, would be [Asgeir Dragonrender](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Asgeir_Dragonrender). Svanir was just a random dude who got corrupted and had no power or relevance of his own. His only merit is being the first norn to get corrupted by Jormag. > > > > Legends should represent characters who had a great impact on history, plus a rich background that lets them channel unique powers not available otherwise. Also, they don't have to be GW1 characters, there's centuries of history, before and after GW1, be more original guys. > > > > Also, I don't think characters who were overpowered in lore work well, since they don't provide a realistic and enjoyable interaction. Shiro, Kalla, Ventari... you can have normal conversations with them. Mallyx and Glint are just terrible, they have nothing interesting to say since they're supposed to be god-tier creatures who know all the secrets of the universe. > > > > Asgeir Dragonrender's only merit was fleeing from Jormag after being scared off due to Jormag threatening him. We know that and the Mists know, too. There's no unique power there, unless you want a "Legendary Fugitive" or "Legendary Liar". The Mists don't care what the Norn say about Asgeir, as the Mists know the truth about his actions. What is or what isn't noteworthy to be a Legend is decided on what leaves an imprint in the Mists. > > In comparison to that, Svanir is responsible for the creation of a whole cult of followers. The Sons of Svanir that could only exists due to the role Svanir played, warped the whole society of the Norn. His influence can easily be compared to the influence the Tablet of Ventari had over the Sylvari. > > We also already know that Svanir was relevant enough to leave imprints in the Mists, as one of his echoes is part of the Forest of Niflhel. > So this "random dude" has already been more relevant to the Mists than Asgeir. > > Of course Legends don't have to be from GW1. They also don't have to be dead. They just need to have left an imprint in the Mists. > It's still easier to guess what left an imprint in the Mists if we have seen the actions first hand. I know what Svanir did and how he influenced the generations of Norn that came after him. Just like how (Brandor and) Kalla's actions influenced the following generations of Charr. But we can't be sure that everything that has been told by unreliable narrators, which most NPC's and mortal characters fall into, is true. Asgeir is the perfect example for this. > > Edit: Also, wouldn't Asgeir being powered up by the Spirits of the Wild count as overpowered in lore? He did oneshot Jormag's champion with their power, after all. That wouldn't make the Legend about him, though, but about the Spirits of the Wild (similiar situation to Ventari and the Tablet). So since Mallyx and Glint are unfit to be Legends in your opinion, Asgeir and the SotW would be, too. Asgeir Dragonrender is the most famous norn hero, and also the founder of Hoelbrak. He literally saved the norn race from extinction; or cursed them into servitude, recent revelations considered (what really happened is not clear enough yet). Asgeir was also a mortal, who used a jotun scroll and the power of the Spirits of the Wild; he wasn't overpowered, since those weren't his powers to begin with. He's also the only known mortal to have injured Jormag. In the other hand, the only thing Svanir did was get corrupted, then killed. He did nothing useful or worthwhile in life. Svanir didn't create the cult either, he had nothing to do with the Sons of Svanir, those guys decided to pay a homage to him for some reason, long after he got killed. > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Lonami.2987" said: > > Both [Hanasha Coralfin](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hanasha_Coralfin) and [Magadore](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magadore) are pretty interesting, but might be too obscure since we barely know anything about them. I think they would work better as villains in Cantha. > > Was Kalla Skorchrazor a widely know character in GW's lore? What's important is the impact the character have on it's whole race. > > In this regard Hanasha Coralfin have just as much, if not more, impact than kalla on it's kins. She literally change the whole moral code of the Nagas and revive it's almost extincted population. It's the perfect candidate for a revive skill (something that revenant have yet to have), I can clearly imagine a thematic between healing (revival), stunbreaking (recovery from the jade wind) and corruption (changing moral code) complementing respectively Ventari, Jalis and Mallyx. > > Sure it wouldn't be the widely asked for "Greatsword DPS legend" but, honestly, I put such character far above Talon Silverwind for legendhood. Kalla is an integral part of GW2 lore, is regarded as pretty much the most legendary charr hero, and is mentioned multiple times across the story and the open world. There's even [a warband named after her](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scorch_Warband), made up by Kalla fangirls. The only other charr who can come any close to her is [bonfaaz Burntfur](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bonfaaz_Burntfur), the shaman general who summoned the Searing of Ascalon.

Here are my 9 elite specialization ideas, check them out, I'm sure you'll like them: [skyfire - Trickster - Apothecary - Dreadnought - Bulwark - Shadowblade - Spiritcaller - Windwalker - Thunderlord](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/120629/end-of-dragons-ideas-for-9-new-canthan-elite-specializations) > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > I know a large number of Revenants what Greatsword with the new espec, so I'd throw my vote that direction. > > I think a Iajitsu set of skills would be interesting. I think that's the most likely scenario too. Greatsword, with movements based on Japanese sword techniques. The legend would be a tengu, probably the unnamed descendant of [Talon Silverwing](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Talon_Silverwing) who led the tengu exodus away from Cantha, leading to the foundation of the [Dominion of Winds](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dominion_of_Winds). We don't know anything about him, but I wouldn't be surprised if his name is [Tsuru Whitewing](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mini_Tsuru_Whitewing), considering that character has always been so suspicious and out of place. A secondary reveal, if you wish, just like Mordremoth's name was revealed through some obscure skill in Crucible of Eternity. > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > > @"ZarexWolf.5637" said: > > > > So, I just had a thought, maybe Revenant could get the Legendary Prisoner stance that was used for a certain part of the story, if that's still possible. Not sure what weapons could be chosen, but it'd definitely be interesting. Though, I prefer Scarlet over Joko in all honesty, which could tie into the use of rifles like I mentioned earlier. Sorry if I've been all over the place with this post. > > > > > > Joko. > > > > > > Legendary Lich Stance. Summons Minions. Uses Scepter. > > > > Revenant already got summons with the last elite spec, so I don't think minions are really a good choice. > > > > I also would go for a scepter for revenant, but make it Canthan flavoured: Legendary Ritualist, Master Togo as the legend to invoke and the skill type associated with him would be weapon spells! > > > > Basically functions like venoms, you buff allies around you with weapon spells which enhance the next x outgoing attacks. > > To be honest, I don't think togo had enough of an impact to become a legend. As a GW1 player I'd be very tempted to but that's all. > > From my point of view, the next revenant e-spec's legend won't be another human legend. I think a prime candidate for an e-spec would be "Nightmare" with Kanaxai as a legendary Nightmare (which is listed both as a demon and a nightmare). I'd model the e-spec after the mesmer with an inbuilt (Upkeep F skill) way to create a nightmare (clone) based on your current legend that harass your target and/or support your allies. It's skills could be _aspects_ (there is 16 of them to chose from in Kanaxai's instance so there is enough material for ANet to make something) working similarly to Herald's facet but as debuff instead of buff (or each of these skills creating a nightmare with an upkeep). Weapon being Off-hand axe because "kanaxai's flavor". > > If I let my fantasy lead me I'd even say that the dreamy aspect of EoD teaser support my claim ;) Kanaxai is even less relevant than Togo lol, and I'm not defending Togo there, both characters are pretty irrelevant for the bigger picture. > @"Raknar.4735" said: > More of my candidates: > * Nornbear/Svanir for obvious reasons (GS, MH Axe or MH Dagger) > * Balthazar (may be too close to "human", and we already have Shiro) > * Menzies as "Legendary Nightmare" (same problem as Balthazar, may be too closely tied to human) > * Varesh (Margonite, very unlikely as she's too close to human and Mallyx/demon) > * Torivos (dual axes, Legendary Envoy, could be a problem since he used to be human in the past) > > Out of them Svanir seems to be the most likely. Fits the evil role for balance, is part of a race that isn't represented in the revenants current lineup (Norn) and would fit into a selfish dps role (Glint and Kalla have been more on the supportive side IMO). None of those are any good imo; except Varesh, we should have gotten her instead of Mallyx. I mean, you had this badass woman general who became the prophet of a dark god, and you chose a random demon gorilla with no personality beyond "me smash" instead? Come on, ArenaNet. Even [Lord Jadoth](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lord_Jadoth) would have been a better choice. The norn legend, if we ever get one, would be [Asgeir Dragonrender](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Asgeir_Dragonrender). Svanir was just a random dude who got corrupted and had no power or relevance of his own. His only merit is being the first norn to get corrupted by Jormag. Legends should represent characters who had a great impact on history, plus a rich background that lets them channel unique powers not available otherwise. Also, they don't have to be GW1 characters, there's centuries of history, before and after GW1, be more original guys. Also, I don't think characters who were overpowered in lore work well, since they don't provide a realistic and enjoyable interaction. Shiro, Kalla, Ventari... you can have normal conversations with them. Mallyx and Glint are just terrible, they have nothing interesting to say since they're supposed to be god-tier creatures who know all the secrets of the universe. > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > Well, I'm saying Kanaxai with the fact that he is part of Cantha's lore. I want to assume that the revenant's legend will have something to do with cantha more than core, nightfall or eye of the north. Apart from Svanir that have nothing to do with cantha, all your candidate are tied to humanity and If it was a spec tied to humanity I'd rather see a legend more meaningful than varesh (which is basically no better candidate than togo), Jadoth would probably be the better candidate. > > Personally, my candidates are: > - Kanaxai (obviously) > - A kraken, Zhu Hanuku (because that would be kitten and we fight a kraken in one of faction's mission). ANet could twist the e-spec into something close to norn's racial abilities. > - An emperor (but it's to closely related to human) > - A tengu (No idea how it could be twisted nor which tengu would be suitable, thought) > - Kuunawang or Albrax (But we already have Glint as a dragon) > - A Naga, Hanasha coralfin (A thematic about revenge and revival. Not sure she would associate herself to humans, thought.) > - Both [Hanasha Coralfin](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hanasha_Coralfin) and [Magadore](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Magadore) are pretty interesting, but might be too obscure since we barely know anything about them. I think they would work better as villains in Cantha. > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > For Rev I think they need a norn (Jora with Greatsword) or an Asura (Vekk with scepter or Focus). > > > > Neither norn nor asura have anything to do with cantha, thought. Sure you can hide a giant ancient asura city there lost for centuries (just like in HoT) but that would be a bit ridiculous. That or something from the futur (since the mists don't really care about the timeline), still the norns hardly have anything to do with cantha, that's just not their domain. > > Doesn't matter. Kalla had nothing to do with the Desert, and there is already a Cantha themed Legend. Kalla had revolutionary themes that matched PoF, plus she connected well with both the Olmakhan and the charr civil war later on. I was pretty annoyed at her at the beginning as well, but I've grown to love her introduction. Just wish it had been handled a bit better from the very beginning. > @"Hypnowulf.7403" said: > I've been musing over what a tengu engineer would look like. I wonder given their aesthetic if it would yield the power of wind—using special axes with rotary blades. That'd be pretty fun. Lots of crowd control and condition damage options. > > It would behoove them to have a Mary Poppins ability as well as an alternative to gliding down when tossed up into the air. I would be all for that. > > I'm also envisioning a support swiftness move with their axes held out in front of them. It'd look utterly ridiculous. Everything about this elite spec would and I'm already a little bit too into it. That's quite an interesting concept, pretty hillarious as well. > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > > > For Rev I think they need a norn (Jora with Greatsword) or an Asura (Vekk with scepter or Focus). > > > > > > > > Neither norn nor asura have anything to do with cantha, thought. Sure you can hide a giant ancient asura city there lost for centuries (just like in HoT) but that would be a bit ridiculous. That or something from the futur (since the mists don't really care about the timeline), still the norns hardly have anything to do with cantha, that's just not their domain. > > > > > > Doesn't matter. Kalla had nothing to do with the Desert, and there is already a Cantha themed Legend. > > > > Considering how hyped Cantha is by the community, I think it would be a waste not to give revenant a legend that has lore ties to Cantha. > > Not saying that they have to be human necessarily, but something that was relevant in Canthan lore would be great. > > > > Maybe a legendary Naga, for example. > > Then give us Talon Silverwing. I bet Tengu will be involved anyway. Can still do Greatsword then since he was a swordmaster. Talon Silverwing's son/grandson led the tengu away from Cantha, into the Dominion of Winds. He's the ideal legend for the expansion imo. > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > Then give us Talon Silverwing. I bet Tengu will be involved anyway. Can still do Greatsword then since he was a swordmaster. > > Unfortunately, Talon doesn't have enough of an impact in history to really be a legend. Unless ANet develop it's character's lore beyond Faction into something truly life changing for the tengus, I can hardly see him being a legend. The Peace between tengu and human that togo, talon, and the 2 other tengu chieftain worked for only lasted from 1071 to 1080, It's not significant enough as it is. As for kicking Shiro in the buisness district, he was but a secondary character with, at best, a minor impact. > > You could have an e-spec related to their religion, thought: > > Canthan tengu of old believed in an afterlife, which they called the Sky Above the Sky. A sect of tengu were known to have guarded the Celestials during the Canthan Trials of Ascension, meaning defeating them was necessary to become Weh no Su, but their connection to the mainstream tengu belief system is unknown. Talon Silverwing was a general during the Tengu Wars, probably for a few decades, and that's pretty much Cantha's biggest known event. Of all GW1 Factions characters, he's the second one with the most potential to become a legend, right after Shiro Tagachi. The Talon you meet during GW1 is an old retired warrior, with lot of history behind him. I think his descendant is a far better candidate, but Talon is a pretty good option as well. Tengu live longer than humans, but the exact numbers haven't been established. For all we know, Talon could have been alive during Usoku's purges. All we need for him to be the perfect candidate is a short story where he stays behind and sacrifices to let the rest of the Angchu tengu escape north to Tyria. Then you would have a character who lived through both the Tengu Wars and Usoku's purges, making him pretty much the most badass character ever to walk Cantha. I still prefer a new character, his son/grandson would be perfect for the role, even if we keep Talon's presence and sacrifice around. But yeah, don't mess up with Talon Silverwing, he has a ton of potential. > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > To be honest, I don't think togo had enough of an impact to become a legend. As a GW1 player I'd be very tempted to but that's all. > > > > From my point of view, the next revenant e-spec's legend won't be another human legend. I think a prime candidate for an e-spec would be "Nightmare" with Kanaxai as a legendary Nightmare (which is listed both as a demon and a nightmare). I'd model the e-spec after the mesmer with an inbuilt (Upkeep F skill) way to create a nightmare (clone) based on your current legend that harass your target and/or support your allies. It's skills could be _aspects_ (there is 16 of them to chose from in Kanaxai's instance so there is enough material for ANet to make something) working similarly to Herald's facet but as debuff instead of buff (or each of these skills creating a nightmare with an upkeep). Weapon being Off-hand axe because "kanaxai's flavor". > > > > If I let my fantasy lead me I'd even say that the dreamy aspect of EoD teaser support my claim ;) > > What I don't understand is why people are always saying that the next legend won't be a human _again_ as if there would be an overrepresentation of humans in revenants legends. > > There is just 1 human legend for revenant, Shiro. All the other legends are not human. > * Ventari -> Centaur > * Mallyx -> Demon > * Jalis -> Dwarf > * Glint -> Dragon > * Kalla -> Charr > > So I think a human legend is still very well possible. I think it's going to be a tengu, but still, believing we won't get another human legend *just because representation* is simply dumb. There's nothing stopping ArenaNet from only releasing human legends from now on, specially when you consider most of the lore is about humans. > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > @"ZarexWolf.5637" said: > > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > > > @"Kodama.6453" said: > > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > To be honest, I don't think togo had enough of an impact to become a legend. As a GW1 player I'd be very tempted to but that's all. > > > > > > > > > > > > From my point of view, the next revenant e-spec's legend won't be another human legend. I think a prime candidate for an e-spec would be "Nightmare" with Kanaxai as a legendary Nightmare (which is listed both as a demon and a nightmare). I'd model the e-spec after the mesmer with an inbuilt (Upkeep F skill) way to create a nightmare (clone) based on your current legend that harass your target and/or support your allies. It's skills could be _aspects_ (there is 16 of them to chose from in Kanaxai's instance so there is enough material for ANet to make something) working similarly to Herald's facet but as debuff instead of buff (or each of these skills creating a nightmare with an upkeep). Weapon being Off-hand axe because "kanaxai's flavor". > > > > > > > > > > > > If I let my fantasy lead me I'd even say that the dreamy aspect of EoD teaser support my claim ;) > > > > > > > > > > What I don't understand is why people are always saying that the next legend won't be a human _again_ as if there would be an overrepresentation of humans in revenants legends. > > > > > > > > > > There is just 1 human legend for revenant, Shiro. All the other legends are not human. > > > > > * Ventari -> Centaur > > > > > * Mallyx -> Demon > > > > > * Jalis -> Dwarf > > > > > * Glint -> Dragon > > > > > * Kalla -> Charr > > > > > > > > > > So I think a human legend is still very well possible. > > > > > > > > Ventari would also be Sylvari. They haven't been around long enough for one of their own to really become legendary enough. No Treesus please. > > > > > > > > There are not Asuran legends nor are there any Norn legends. The new Rev espec should be one of those. > > > > > > There is an exception when it comes to Sylvari. > > > I don't think you can deny that Scarlet had a major impact on the world and should be up there in the legendary tier, even if these have been fairly recent events. > > > > > > Still disagree that Norn or Asura should be the legend and also disagree with a Sylvari one (aka Scarlet) because of the point I mentioned: I think it would be a waste to not give us a Canthan legend for that expansion. > > > > I mean, it is a waste to not have Scarlet become a legendary stance. Not to mention she'd be perfect for those that want more range options with rev, but I do understand that there are those that also want more melee options. (Seriously, Rev needs a larger weapon selection.) For melee, I think Talon would be a good choice if Anet expands their lore. > > Scarlet definitely is one of the big players in the lore, hence why I mentioned her. > But I just mentioned Scarlet for the sake of acknowledging her. I think she is not a good choice for the next elite spec (or any coming future elite spec, really). > > There are some points which speak against Scarlet. > She wouldn't enhance the lore alot, unlike other legends. We discovered alot about Scarlet's past already when we dealt with her. > Also her thematic: Scarlet basically has been a holosmith herself. Holosmith even referrences one of her iconic abilities in their ultimates, the prime light beam. > In general, holograms and hard light have been defining for her as a character. Sure, there have been mechanical creatures created by her. But Scarlet herself mostly attacked with lasers and such. > > Which makes her too close thematically to holosmith to happen in my opinion. > I love Scarlet, was one of my favourite characters in this game and she really is worthy of the title of a legend. > But looking at what it would mean for an elite spec, I think it is better not to use her as a revenant elite spec. Anything Scarlet would work better as an engineer specialization anyway.

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said: > The best "farming map" so far, very engaging meta development. Once i get used to map events, i get really addicted. > > And the landscapes then, I was always obstinate by "cold forest" style landscape, we needed a breath of so much desert. > > Even Dragonfall, in the background they use so much textures of silverwastes, that in the end it ends up being a mixture of silverwastes and heart of magumma (hot maps) assets. Worst of all: the base of operations at the beginning of the map, recalls the base of silverwastes with Airships and Pact soldiers. > > Some argue that north meta was "lazy", but i guess not, its fit perfectly, if it was just a copy of south the players will be burned out of 2hrs doing same thing. Should have kept the ice wall, and split the meta in two with a timer. Would have prevented most of its current problems.

> @"Reaper X.6305" said: > Please remove the need to use transmutation charges to change your gear's appearance, and put in-game barber shops in all of the capitol cities so that we can change our hair! It would be such a gesture of good will towards your player base. We all know Fashion Wars is a big selling point of this game, so please don't restrict it! Just have it cost silver in game if it must cost something. You can make up for the 'lost revenue' that this good will gesture would cause by adding other customization things, like player housing and furniture! You'll probably get a ton of good press (which means new players) for this move too. Please ANet, it's the right thing to do! 100% agree, transmutation charges hurt their backline, people would purchase more gem store skins if they were easier to use. Also, hairstyles would make more money if they were free to apply, but also sold individually in the gem store, just as weapon and armor skins.

> @"Mikael Ekvall.6039" said: > Both Guild Wars 2 and FFXIV have up coming expansions hinting som kind of End (and a new start). End of dragons and Endwalker. Both companies have clarified that this not the End for the actual game but for a story or part of it. I think it is a bit funny that both have chosen a name for their expansion that indicate and "End". Also funny that they in interviews have to explain that they are not shutting down the game ? Both "Heart of Thorns" and "Path of Fire" were pretty bland names, but "End of Dragons" is bad, like, really bad. Just a few better alternatives, with zero knowledge of what the expansion might be about: * **Empire of the Dragon** (my favorite expansion title for Cantha, it's a synonym for the "Empire of Cantha", and also a double reference for dragons) * **The Great Wave** (wave of water, wave of enemies) * **Empire of the Tides** (a combination of the first two, also linked to [celestials](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Celestial), since tides are tied to the moon) * **The Celestial Empire** (similar angle, but focusing on celestials directly). * **Black Tides** (back to water only) * **Dragonstorm** (simple and to the point, still a bit too generic) Just a few examples.

I think we need difficulty modes. So, each zone would have a normal and a hard version, kinda like GW1. Normal version you can wander alone just fine, hard version you need a party to survive (kinda like 2012 Cursed Shore). It's about time we stop trying to satisfy to everyone at once, because that's just a straight road to satisfying no one. Split the game already and let everyone play at their own difficulty.

> @"Camniel.7238" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Camniel.7238" said: > > > As I said, I'm running on the thesis that OTHER players DO want a playable race and I want to discuss how that CAN be introduced without breaking story. > > > > I'm quite sure most players that are asking for a new playable race want a specific race, like Tengu or Largos, or Skritt, or Dwarves or whatever, and very few are saying a generic "please add a new race". So bringing up a new race that most players never asked for in the first place and calling it a "solution" to the desire to add a specific race, isn't going to work. > > > > There is this thread here with suggestions and discussion over the topic of races: > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/21242/new-playable-races-study-choose-your-favorite/p1 > > You linked a thread that just offers races you might want. It has nothing to do with how that race can be implemented into the story without causing retcons. Do you have a race or method of story implementation that would cause say the Tengu or other requested race to be introduced without retcons or similar story confusion? Both tengu and largos could join the other races in the Personal Story without any problems. The Pact has tengu and largos members already, such as [izu Steelshrike](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Izu_Steelshrike) and [sayeh al' Rajihd](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sayeh_al%27_Rajihd). > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Camniel.7238" said: > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > @"Camniel.7238" said: > > > > As I said, I'm running on the thesis that OTHER players DO want a playable race and I want to discuss how that CAN be introduced without breaking story. > > > > > > I'm quite sure most players that are asking for a new playable race want a specific race, like Tengu or Largos, or Skritt, or Dwarves or whatever, and very few are saying a generic "please add a new race". So bringing up a new race that most players never asked for in the first place and calling it a "solution" to the desire to add a specific race, isn't going to work. > > > > > > There is this thread here with suggestions and discussion over the topic of races: > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/21242/new-playable-races-study-choose-your-favorite/p1 > > > > You linked a thread that just offers races you might want. It has nothing to do with how that race can be implemented into the story without causing retcons. Do you have a race or method of story implementation that would cause say the Tengu or other requested race to be introduced without retcons or similar story confusion? > > The easiest solution is when they add a new race, to start their story from that point onward. So if a new race is added with the expansion, it will only take part in the expansion content and forget the previous living world seasons and of course the previous expansions. For example, a playable Tengu will start from the Dominion of Winds, then move on to Cantha. Same with Largos, they'd be in their water city and find a reason to move to Cantha. They will never fight Zhaitan, Mordremoth or Kralkatorik. > > And this isn't even a new idea, especially for Arenanet, it's how the story of Guild Wars Factions (and Nightfall) worked, players that started in Prophecies and players that started in Factions had a completely different story up to a certain point, interacting with different characters. Tyrians will have Dragon's Watch and be the champions of Aurene, Canthans will have a new story to become the champions of Kuunavang. In fact, disregarding a new race, I'd really love it if I could play a Canthan HUMAN (yes human), with a brand new Canthan exclusive storyline, that doesn't know anything about what's happening outside Cantha. > > No need for retcons, no need to mess the story. The Kuunavang angle is the best approach imo. Kill the Commander, stop using that title and give us a fresh start no matter your race or origin. Forget about Dragon's Watch and give us new characters to play the story with; or just find a way to introduce them to the new races, so we become best friends and you don't need different dialogue options going forward. And yeah, being able to start as humans in the new Canthan leveling experience would be great. > @"Linken.6345" said: > > @"VocalThought.9835" said: > > I see people complaining about Tengu's armor, story, and voice lines. I think all of these are easy to work out. Yes it's going to take time and money, but it's not impossible. I say, just do the darn thing. If they can create mounts in this game, they can create a race. No one is asking for perfection, but with game like this, they can always make improvements with each future game update. > > Yes it will cost time and money, neither of those Anet will be able to earn back. > People against a new race would rather see time and money go to something else they might enjoy. Where? New playable races are art deparment work, it's not like PvP or raids are going to get affected by it. > @"ugrakarma.9416" said: > the real issue with new race is simply armor, they already have lots of trouble with charr cliping issues or adapting, imagine a tengu.. unless they just reeskin one of already existing races, but at end the players will notice the cheap job. Don't let new races use 100% of the old armor, plain and simple. > @"Oxstar.7643" said: > Utterly incorrect statement. Races have their own storylines, their own racial abilities, and dialogue differences in the story. They very much matter. Your character's race hasn't mattered to the story since 2012.

> @"Lithril Ashwalker.6230" said: > Aside from the desired Tengu from which Cantha has many of. > > What about Largos? > They have [rich culture](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Concordat_of_the_Tethyos_Houses) just waiting to be pried out. Which itself can be based off of the original Guild Wars 1 Assassin. Many largos dual wield swords which could be a new addition to the THIEF class as an offhand weapon. Would be interesting to see as well because they Unending ocean is in between Cantha and our current region so would be a SHAME to not be able to have them at least in the story. > > Tengu - Tengu would be a great addition to the playable races as many desire it but also because they are in the area and have a huge influence on many borders in the original Cantha. > > Maybe new masteries revolving around Luxon and Kurzick alliances, an alliance system that used to be in guild wars 1 where we can aid each other in the guild menus, true GVG and more guild missions!? > > Juggernaut and Siege turtle masteries?! > > let the discussion begin! > If new playable races happen, largos will be a guaranteed addition, for a pretty simple reason: They're super easy to implement, since their rig is identical to that of humans, sylvari, and norn. Anyway, here's a few ideas for both new playable races and elite specializations: * [New playable races study - Choose your favorite](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/21242/new-playable-races-study-choose-your-favorite/p1) * [ideas for 9 new Canthan elite specializations](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/120629/end-of-dragons-ideas-for-9-new-canthan-elite-specializations/p1) > @"castlemanic.3198" said: > I hate to burst your bubble but according to [The movement of the world](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World): > > > In the year 1127 AE, Emperor Usoku, successor to Kisu, took a firm hold of his nation. He raised the Canthan military, spending millions in gold to arm his troops, and then swept the countryside. He defeated the Luxons and the Kurzick, incorporating these disparate people back into his nation. Usoku unified Cantha behind a strong national identity and began to drive out all non-humans. > > So all the tengu left cantha, and the luxons and the kurzicks are no more. That was 250 years ago, lot of things could have happened. Also, the [sensali](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Sensali) should still be around. There's lot of interesting things you could do with them, such as making them allies of the humans (after being defeated and enslaved centuries ago), turn them into guerrillas, make them ghosts, etc. > @"Camniel.7238" said: > Something that WoodenPotatoes has prompted in his discussions on YouTube is how a new playable could mechanically work with the game and this is something I'd like to discuss in more detail as well. I'm aware that many players want either the Tengu or the Largos (or some other lesser known race) to be introduced as playable in the upcoming End of Dragons expansion. HOWEVER, I see a very big problem with this and that is story continuity. For both the Tengu and the Largos their entire civilizations have been hidden and presented as secretive or isolationist. Introducing them as playable would have to jump through multiple hoops in order for the story to make sense. > > The first reason this would be difficult to do properly is that Guild Wars 2 is and always has been the story of the Pact Commander and all their amazing feats (Dragon killing etc.). If you introduce the Tengu for example you would have to do one of two things - 1. Make the Tengu character still be the Commander that basically formed the Pact, killed Zhaitan, etc. OR 2. Make the Tengu playable with a short independent story that does not interact with the Commander's story at all. > > If you take path #2 with an independent story you will lose out on future content being available to that race since you are not playing as the Commander so this route would be very detrimental to the race's long term playability. If you take path #1 and make this Tengu (etc.) character be the Commander from the beginning you would have to create a brand new low level core game story to justify the presence of this FAMOUS character from a civilization no one knows anything about that is supposed to be generally isolationist. You would have to find a way to write in their civilization to the core game's story without rewriting the history of the core game in the process. So unless ArenaNet is willing to basically rewrite half the game I don't think we'll be getting a new playable race that requires a consistent backstory. > > ... > > Does anyone have any other ideas that could realistically work in a setting that does not mess with the continuity of the game's history and lore? I'd love to see what you might come up with. > > Thanks for reading this big wall of text and again, please be kind in the comments even if you dislike my approach. This is my ideal solution: * New playable races will not be able to play older storylines, and will directly join the Canthan plot after a short tutorial instead. Alternatively, they could access the older story instances, but use a placeholder race instead (like, if you're a tengu player, you will be transformed into a charr during the pre-EoD story instances). If you want to play the older storylines, you'll have to play as one of the original races. As for "commander continuity", either use a short cinematic where you summarize all previous events, or just "kill the commander" and give us a fresh start (kinda like we're called Outlander during PoF). * New playable races will start their leveling experience at Cantha, using the same zones as veteran players, thanks to level-scaling. Going back to the previous zones will still be possible, but not necessary. * New playable races will not be able to use 100% of the existing armor skins, only a selected few. > @"Camniel.7238" said: > > Now, why am I saying that these are the only two real paths to include such a playable race? Because ArenaNet cannot afford to do what they did with the Revenant class to a new playable race. If you remember, when Heart of Thorns came out and introduced the Revenant to players the story introduced someone as the FIRST Revenant using magic no one knew anything about. BUT the company shoehorned the class into the whole story and created a situation where you could play as a Revenant from the very beginning of the game's story and BE a Revenant already when that character shows up as being the FIRST Revenant. Making it a really awkward situation in relation to story continuity. Like, how are you going to be using all this magic that no one knows about and then every one be surprised when someone shows up doing exactly what you've been doing the whole time? Sure you can handwave and gloss over details like that with a playable class, but you CANNOT do this with a playable race. It would wreck the story of the game and create so many awkward questions that it would weaken the game's overall story. > > But I know a lot of people still want a new playable race in Guild Wars 2, and I know that a new race would be very shiny to new players. So how can you create a new race that can justify the previously established story, still be the Pact Commander, and yet be something new at the same time? I have an idea (mind you this is just an idea so please be kind in the comments). > That's ArenaNet's mistake, they should have pretended revenants existed all along and call it a day. The whole "Rytlock is the first revenant" thing was just dumb as hell and a prime example of bad writing and even worse worldbuilding. > @"Camniel.7238" said: > Make the new playable race be the Exalted. You can select the Exalted race in the character selection screen which could then open a dream sequence featuring a new voice that represents the Commander (instead of relying on the voice of any previous race or gender) have the Exalted identify you as the Pact Commander in the dream without the player ever seeing the Pact Commander themselves - this allows the player to imagine that the Commander is any of the other races at this moment - offering the player the choice to become an Exalted which the character accepts on behalf of the player. This allows ALL previous story to be valid and unchanged while still introducing a new race. Once the choice has been accepted the dream ends with a flash or something and the player "wakes up" in an Exalted city (presumably in Cantha, though the location can be anywhere affecting whatever expansion this could be a part of) and is given a new and proper tutorial of the game that is currently lacking in the stories of the other races. After the tasks of the detailed tutorial are complete the player is made level 80 and is allowed to progress through the rest of the Commander's future story. Again this option of the Commander becoming an Exalted allows all previous history to be unchanged and valid without forcing new players to buy the previous expansions or do the core game right away AND provides a tutorial system that does not require interacting with old code that may not be easily understood due to its age and distance from current developers. > > Another benefit to using the Exalted as the new playable race is that it's very shiny and could be attractive to new players coming from other games that might be interested in a playing a glowing, floating creature that is quite unique to Guild Wars as far as I'm aware. It could attract veteran players as well who know the story behind the Exalted and may find them fascinating as well as shiny. The new tutorial system may also put casual veterans who struggle with certain aspects of the game in a better position to compete with more "elite" players thanks to playing as the new race. > > This option would in my opinion solve most of the problems of including a new race as it does not interfere with previously established story, does not need an extensive background story, allows the Commander to have been any race or gender previously in the lore, and offers a tutorial system not bogged down with long ago written code, all while being something unique and shiny, and likely easy to advertise. It would also allow new players who do not own previous expansions to play as the new race without feeling like they have to catch up to the current story via a long drawn out playthrough of previous content though that option is still available. Exalted don't make any sense from a game development viewpoint. You can't use armor skins with them, and they can't even jump either. > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"VocalThought.9835" said: > > I think all of these are easy to work out. > > This is half the problem with a lot of suggestions on here. People like to vastly underestimate how difficult things are. > > Everything is easy or doable if you just dismiss or handwave all the hard bits and downsides about them. > I think the opposite is far more common. Lot of people who have no idea about programming or 3D art spewing dumb stereotypes such as "it's too hard" or "spaghetti code" as excuses for why nothing can be done, ever. > @"TheLadyOfTheRings.9148" said: > Maybe they won't give us a new playable race, but chances to play as Tengu/Largos/etc. instead? Something like Visions of the Past, where we play as Ryland, but in this case we would play as a Tengu/Largos/etc. That would be a waste of time and miss the point altogether. > @"VocalThought.9835" said: > > @"Linken.6345" said: > > > @"VocalThought.9835" said: > > > I see people complaining about Tengu's armor, story, and voice lines. I think all of these are easy to work out. Yes it's going to take time and money, but it's not impossible. I say, just do the darn thing. If they can create mounts in this game, they can create a race. No one is asking for perfection, but with game like this, they can always make improvements with each future game update. > > > > Yes it will cost time and money, neither of those Anet will be able to earn back. > > People against a new race would rather see time and money go to something else they might enjoy. > > It doesn't matter what people who are against it think. Once it's done it's done, and they can move on to discuss the next debate. People were against a new class, mounts, and new zones, and build templates. Those things came and went. A new Race could come out too and people will forget they complained. Exactly, there's a lot of contrarianism and "status quo zealotry" around here. I mean, some people were against the wardrobe back in 2013, that's how bad it was.

> @"Super Hayes.6890" said: > New expansion otw since this thread was last posted on so who knows. A new race would be fun as long as the expansion comes with a character slot. I would give players the option to choose, I don't want/need a character slot myself, so I'd rather get something else instead, like a free "race change". > @"Firebeard.1746" said: > The best way to do this would be > > 1) Give each race its own voting slot -> lumping 5 different races into the same class could bloat the popularity when in reality the individual races could be far less popular > > 2) This should be a ranked voting system -> I think people have so many different favorites that the best way to make the most people happy is with ranked voting so most people get SOMETHING they'd be somehat happy with vs. 2% of the population is happy and everyone else grumbles. Agree, but forums have restrictions, so this is what we have to work with. > @"Hypnowulf.7403" said: > Not much love for reptiles or the moletariat. Shame. Serpentine races are kinda weird due to jumping animations, but yeah, I'd love to see them as playable some day, here or somewhere else. Same thing for races with multiple arms, four arms being the most common. > @"sorudo.9054" said: > looking at the votes i do see a pattern, ppl are boring at thinking of something new. > it's always ether what already exists or what just doesn't work, nothing actually new and valid. Any ideas for potential playable races who don't already exist? Personally, from the existing ones not covered by the original post, I wouldn't mind [jotun](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jotun) or [sidhe](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Sidhe)/[wardens](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warden). Both could work very well with Cantha (jotun would be tied to the [yeti](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/yeti) there, and look more "human" than the game's current version). I would say my current top five would be as follows: * [Tengu](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tengu) * [Largos](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Largos) * [sidhe](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Sidhe)/[Wardens](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warden) * [Jotun](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jotun) * Barathrum/[stone Dwarf](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dwarf) No ideas for 100% new races though. The game has done a pretty poor job of worldbuilding beyond the current events, and that's a double edged sword. Some kind of insectoid race could be nice I guess. > @"Oxstar.7643" said: > Kodan tbh. They're not that alike Norn - their religion and magic are different, as is their societal system. You could do a lot with them. Don't forget to vote!

> @"Farohna.6247" said: > I'd settle just for a portable repair anvil that can be plunked down much like banners or food :) This would be the ideal solution, a novelty anvil you can deploy whenever and wherever you want.

I think trait lines are a mistake, I would let players just choose the ones they like from a list, each trait having a different "trait cost" depending on how useful it is. This way traits can be individually balanced, and not affect the whole trait line after they're adjusted. Elite specializations would be chosen separatedly, and have no trait cost.

> @"Yung Reezy.8479" said: > First I must commend you on really sticking with your ideas and coming back to them, it’s been cool to see them develop. And also warriors should definitely get knuckles as a core profession update Thanks! Check my [ideas for 9 new Canthan elite specializations](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/120629/end-of-dragons-ideas-for-9-new-canthan-elite-specializations/p1) as well if you like my work :smile:. > @"Fueki.4753" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > I dunno orb fits elementalist perfectly and skull for necromancer skull of some powerful dead guy or something no? i mean eles bieng casters would love some form of magic orb to channel elements no? > > These actually sound like they'd fit as Focus skins, rather than being their own weapon categories. > Foci have always been kind of a mess, it's kinda sad they never got properly established as "real" magical artifacts (such as orbs, books, etc) and instead we got a series of weird gizmos that don't look either useful or cool in any way whatsoever. [i mean, just look at the gallery.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gallery_of_foci)

> @"Multicolorhipster.9751" said: > > @"Lonami.2987" said: > > Courtyard is [Murderball](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Murderball), not [Team Deathmatch](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Team_Deathmatch). The name of the game mode was changed a few years ago. > > I mean using the Courtyard map for 3v3/2v2 TDM. Unless its already like that, Idunno. I don't even play Ranked anymore. Courtyard has two versions, one for Murderball (the original) and one for Team Deathmatch (introduced later). None of them are available through either ranked, unranked, or public arenas; they can only be played through custom arenas purchased by players. > @"Clipzy.9483" said: > 3 words. Capture the flag. I voted for 3s deathmatch tho because they should balance the game around 3s. Would make balancing easier in my opinion. I completely agree. When you start balance at the lower levels, the higher levels (5v5, 10v10) will become easier to balance. > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > In general I'd love to see some of the league rewards being either shifted into the reward track or redo the entire thing.. For WvW for example you can practically afk for 9min in your base then run out and cap a camp or something and you get maximum rewards. For sPvP I'm forced to do ranked clownfiesta, any other form of pvp excludes those rewards. Now don't get me wrong, please don't add new ones and I also don't think that stuff like Ascended Shards of glory should be moved.. But I'd appreciate getting at least the gold and maybe grandmaster marks. > That way we could do full team queue without wasting time not getting anything done in the game.. I'm all for playing PvP because of fun and not for reward, it's just that if there's a really profitable sPvP mode around the corner with the exact same game mode, maps, etc it becomes a bit.. questionable. > Now that I think about it, my only problem with unranked is that ranked is SO much more profitable.. It's virtually the same without the gold. I don't mind getting nothing out of a csgo match for example but in GW2, just because there's the alternative,.. idk, anyway.. a slight rework of the rewards would be nice. I think unranked is a waste of time, since ranked gives you far more money. Unless you really care about your rank, I'd never do unranked. In fact, I wish unranked was replaced with a 3v3 Team Deathmatch ranked queue. I wouldn't touch Conquest ever again if I could 3v3 all day long. > > @"Lonami.2987" said: > > ArenaNet said they were working on a new 10v10/15v15 game mode. Reworks for the existing modes (redesign Stronghold into a 10v10 game mode?) could be possible as well. > When did they say that? And is this still relevant or just some 2015 stuff they abandoned long ago ever since but didn't tell anybody to keep some hope in the community? > Now that you mention 10v10 and stuff... I'd also extremely highly appreciate Guild vs Guild.. I am currently not in any active guild but if sPvP or GvG became viable to play with friends again I'd definitely go out and join one again. I don't even remember, but they mentioned they were having problems with the UI. Few PvP map prototypes were datamined as well. My guess is that we'll see something with the third expansion, but no idea what to expect. > @"thundermarch.5643" said: > Add some new game mod in player versus player , i'm bored in conquest game mod , we need diversity ! No more roaming ! No more decapping ! Let's give us some kind of new PvP objective maps ! > > ---------------------------- > > 1) capture the flag game mod : flag in middle people need to bring back to their base. Player who hold the flag cannot fight (?) and need to be bumped to drop it > > 5v5 game [spirit Watch](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_Watch) already works that way, too bad it was abandoned and removed from ranked. Hope they rework it some day :anguished:. > @"Axl.8924" said: > I voted stronghold just to see what it is, it sounds interesting. > > Having more variety could help keep the game alive It's already in the game, since 2015 to be precise lol. Only available through public and unranked arenas. > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > @"Cynz.9437" said: > > Ok. Let's stay by thief: (...) Let's take 2v2: thief is a joke there. (...)Theoretically the balance team would have to up survivability and damage from thief to be viable in that mode, maybe even support. Take a wild guess how it will affect conquest. > > That's exactly what I meant with my original statement (or rather one part to my idea): > > @"DoomNexus.5324" said: > > Imo people should stop expecting a perfect balance across all classes across all modes within any game mode. This is just in general not really feasible and even less so if they keep changing the balance.. which they have to do, otherwise it would become stale after a while. We will always some flavor of the month. > > I wouldn't force every class or even spec to be viable for every game mode and every mode within that game mode an so on.. That's just unrealistic and never going to happen. I know from personal experience that thief is at least "viable" in 2v2 and 3v3 with some builds and I think that's more than I would ask for a class. I mean like I said, I've played builds that were not even considered viable in the slightest, let alone a meta build and I 1) performed really well and 2) had a lot of fun playing it. > I've also suggested in another post that anet could categorize classes/e-specs so they can balance them accordingly and justify everything instead of "We feel like this is too stronk so Nerf-Hammer". > If they put daredevil in a Roamer-category then they have no obligations to make daredevil work for a team deathmatch kind of game mode and recent mobility nerfs would be unjustified where we as players also get some form of base to argue from too. However if they'd decide that Daredevil is supposed to be a Brawler then the mobility nerfs were appropriate and nobody could really argue against that.. Something like that.. If Anet just set specific roles a spec is meant for then everybody (community AND devs) would have a better guideline for judgement instead of just personal opinion. They don't need to be super one-dimensional and a roamer is not allowed to take part in team fights or bring anything else to the table but it allows everyone to put everything into perspective.. If a tank excels in mobility in such a way that they replace roamers then there's definitely something going on.. > > It would also open some possibilities for match making.. Instead of avoiding duplicate classes they could avoid duplicate roles or make them more unlikely or match two equally set up teams and stuff.. Like only match a team with support with another team with support, or something like that. > Completely different approach to how Anet handles sPvP at the moment (and everything else basically since you could also extend that to PvE lfgs and stuff) but I think this could change and improve a lot.. just a couple constructive thoughts instead of the usual Q_Q in the forums. I loathe the nerf mentality. In many cases, the solution for imbalance is to introduce counters, not to nerf everything into the ground. And let's face it, most people doesn't know how to rotate properly (and many don't even care). It's more of a Conquest problem rather than a thief problem.

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said: > the free 2 equipment tabs + flood of ascendeds made the legendary obsolete. > > managing lots of ascedend gear with various stats was problem because i have 9 alts, but now inst more a problem. > > i have 3 mains heavy alts, 5 ascendend sets, i have more ascended gear than alts. > > the kind of player that manage more than this is probably 0,001% of playbase. Exactly, I'd go even further and say nowadays managing acended equipment is far more comfortable than managing legendary equipment, due to all its issues. > @"Firebeard.1746" said: > Yeah giving the armory ascended gear devalues the value proposition of LA. If they did anything, I'd like them to release a tier of exotic soulbound gear on use that can be stat swapped at will and has infusion slots, and costs about as much as ascended to make, that way we can play with our characters' full capabilities before diving super deep into a particular ascended gear setup (and being forced to play for years before being able to experiment using leggies). That would solve many of the problems we have right now.

> @"maddoctor.2738" said: > If you want to have a system like this, your proposal should have vastly different values for the different types of items. Different cost for weapons, armor, runes/sigils, trinkets and back item. A cost that is good for a Weapon, is gonna be absolutely terrible for a trinket. As long as the prices don't get ridiculous, fine with me. No one should feel like they're throwing their money away by storing ascended equipment. Maybe require payment to unlock the slot before you can store any items, but refund that cost once you store legendaries? I wouldn't mind if some types of items required specific accountbound currencies either, like, fractal relics to store ascended jewelry or whatever. Could be a great way to promote diverse content. Alternatively, since jewelry is so cheap, maybe just force players to upgrade it using jeweler 500. Or maybe only allow crafted ascended jewelry to be stored. Plenty options there. Let's not forget that players can already unequip their ascended equipment, leave it at the bank, and pick it up with another character. The goal of this system is to make sharing gear easier, specially for newer players who might struggle with gear. I think everyone here would like other players to be wielding good gear, instead of rare equipment with soldier stats. This system would be a step forward to fix that problem, while also opening the way for veterans to be able to test different builds far more easily. > @"Zok.4956" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Zok.4956" said: > > > In reality is is much cheaper to "unlock" all stat combinations, because you do not need to craft all those items. You can just stat swap ascended weapons/armor in the mystic forge, which is a lot cheaper. > > > > > > > That wouldn't work with the rules presented in the first post of the thread, once you put an item in the system you lose the ability to stat swap anymore. I tried to use the rules presented by the thread starter when calculating the cost > > It was also written: "Heirloom equipment works exactly as legendary equipment, but stat selection is limited to stats you've previously unlocked." > > So, you make the stat-changes in the mystic forge to "unlock" the stats before you put the item in the proposed storage system. > You would lose the item upon storage, so you would lose the ability to use the Mystic Forge to swap stats as many times as you want too. If you like to swap stats often, you shouldn't store your equipment. > @"Khisanth.2948" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > This essentially keeps the total price of the Heirloom Short Bow at less than 1800g (and with inflated values due to rounding) compared to a legendary weapon that costs almost 2300g. And remember this is for every single stat combination, players that need 5 or 10 of them (out of the 35 total) will pay significantly less. > > Meaning, your prices are way way too generous. > > Price is probably the biggest problem after any technical issues. > > Any alternative to legendaries that isn't cheaper than legendaries is almost useless. Their only usefulness is to avoid the need to acquire a GoB and GoE. > On the other hand if the alternative is cheaper then legendaries are essentially reduced to an expensive skin. > > The only way to avoid the issue is to not have any alternative ... Pretty much what they were supposed to be in the first place. I mean, there are plenty exotic weapons worth more than 500 gold each, plus loads of heavy RNG Black Lion Chest items which are [far more expensive](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Black_Lion_Exclusives_Chest) than any legendary too. > @"Mungo Zen.9364" said: > Yet, you want to have Ascended gear able to Stat Swap and Gear Share, something that is unique to Legendary items. You know you can already do that, right? You need to use the Mystic Forge and the bank though, instead of it being a single click away. That's the only difference.

> @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Lonami.2987" said: > > Legendary gear has all existing stats, present and future, that functionality remains intact. In fact, if you're using multiple stats, getting legendary gear instead of ascended would be far more convenient (and in some cases, possibly cheaper as well). > > Given how cheap (especially when running a lot of "endgame" content) Ascended gear is, how do you suppose Legendary gear will become cheaper than using this system? > Let's make an example, Chuka and Champawat costs 2239 gold to make (using gw2efficiency data, which calculates if it's better to craft or buy from TP automatically, I assume the cheapest possible path) > > > * Heirloom equipment works exactly as legendary equipment, but stat selection is limited to stats you've previously unlocked. > > Let's see how much gold you'd need to unlock every possible stat combination that is available with crafting (prices rounded up): > Zojja: 48g > Keeper: 48g > Stonecleaver: 47g > Chorben: 45g > Steelstar: 48g > Coalforge: 46g > Soros: 48g > Beigarth: 47g > Angchu: 46g > Ventari: 49g > Leftpaw: 46g > Tonn: 49g > Zingtl: 46g > Zehtuka 47g > Tixx: 48g > Verata: 48g > Occam: 49g > Grizzlemouth: 46g > Mathilde: 46g > Giftbringer: 47g > Tizlak: 49g > Svaard: 48g > Laranthir: 48g > Ossa: 48g > Ruka: 49g > The Twins: 45g > Yassith: 48g > Nadijeh: 47g > Pahua: 54g > Maklain: 51g > Nerashi: 45g > Theodosus: 47g > Hronk: 46g > Ebonmane: 49g > Wupwup: 49g > > As you can see, all different Ascended Shortbow types, except Maklain, cost under 50g. Even if we take every stat at 50g, we have 35 stat combinations, giving us a cost of 1750g to have a Heirloom Short Bow that has all the stats, and convinience of the Legendary Short Bow. > > I know you said "The prices and costs can vary" but for the sake of argument, let's use your own suggested prices > > > * Purchase an Armory Storage Kit from [Miyani](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Miyani). Storage kits have 20 uses, and a fixed cost of 20 gold plus 200 transmutation charges. > > 20 gold for 20 uses? In the example above, that's 2 Armory Storage Kits, bringing the cost to 1790g. And 400 Transmutation Charges. At worst you can buy 400 Transmutation Charges directly from the gem store for 2400 gems. You need 34g per 100 gems, so that's 816g, bringing the total to 2606 gold, which is more than the Legendary weapon. However, the price is if you get every single stat (there are 35 of them) AND you have zero transmutation charges available. > > Also: > > * [Transmutation Charges](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Transmutation_Charge) have been removed from the gem store. Additional charges can now be purchased from Miyani in exchange of [spirit Shards](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirit_Shard). > > This essentially keeps the total price of the Heirloom Short Bow at less than 1800g (and with inflated values due to rounding) compared to a legendary weapon that costs almost 2300g. And remember this is for every single stat combination, players that need 5 or 10 of them (out of the 35 total) will pay significantly less. > Meaning, your prices are way way too generous. The prices/model I gave are in no way final, but still, pretty good analysis. I don't want it to be too expensive, since in the end, the goal of the armory is to let you swap ascended and legendary equipment easily, without having to swap characters and use the bank to transfer your gear. You don't get any "new" thing, you just get an easier way to use what you already own. Also, I'd say the legendary skin compensates the gold difference. Plus, you don't get just the existing stats, but any future stats as well. The prices I followed are based on getting a complete build stored. So, 6 armor pieces, 6 runes, 2-4 weapon slots, 4 sigils, 1 back item, 5 jewelry. Leaving infusions and underwater equipment out, that would be a total of 24-26 (let's round it to 25) items to store. At 1 gold and 10 transmutation charges per use, each build would cost 25 gold and 250 transmutation charges; maybe a bit too cheap. Assuming we have all 9 professions, plus 3 builds per profession, that's a total of 27 builds. Let's say 50% of the items are shared (many builds use berserker stats), so let's leave it at 15 complete builds. The estimated final cost for storing the gear from all your builds would be 375 gold plus 3750 transmutation charges. I originally made the Armory Storage Kit have 10 uses instead of 20 (so the final cost would double, 750g plus 7500tg), but I feel like making the system affordable is positive for the game as a whole, specially when you have so many players running around on gear below exotic rarity. I have two bank tabs full of ascended chests, so yeah, this system might be pretty cheap for veterans like me, but that's not the point, the armory should be something everyone can use, even new players who will be crafting their ascended armor from scratch; and that's not exactly cheap either. Still, I'm open to rising the prices to double or beyond, but I don't think it should be more expensive than the legendary alternatives. > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > * Heirloom armor, weapons, and back items include a new exclusive skin upon unlock, which can only be obtained by using the armory system. > > The second unique aspect of the Legendary items, their skin, is going to be challenged here? That would obviously depend on how good these skins are going to be, and even then it's a very subjective decision, but still this exclusive look, if it's any good, will make Heirloom weapons even better than they already are. > Nothing sparklier than your average Black Lion Claim Ticket weapon skin, it's just an incentive to use the system. Also, it works as a compensation as well, so you don't feel like storing ascended is a waste of money. If you later decide to store a legendary, at least you got a skin for storing ascended before it. Alternatively, we could force players to store at least 3 ascended pieces before being able to store the legendary piece, and just use generic ascended skins for the heirloom versions. That could be an interesting way to increase the storage price without asking for raw gold. > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > Finally we have this part > > Any ascended or legendary equipment piece can be stored inside the Armory. Once stored, it can't be taken out. Stored equipment will appear directly inside the equipment tab, taking no inventory space. > > So 35 inventory items taking no space at all? Either in the bank or any character's inventory? That's huge on its own as the maximum a bag slot can contain is 32 (less than the needed 35) and it requires 400 gems to unlock, bringing us to other important savings compared to using the legendary weapon. Bag space stopped being relevant with the introduction of shared inventory slots and unidentified gear. Also, I'd wager the number of players carrying inventories full of gear for every specific situation is pretty low. Most players won't even notice the inventory size difference. > @"Mungo Zen.9364" said: > > @"Lonami.2987" said: > > > @"Mungo Zen.9364" said: > While a system could be sorted out to balance this, it would likely make Ascended gear prohibitively costly. For example I can farm Ascended gear from Living World Seasons to attain say, multiple Ascended backpacks far faster than the Legendary counterpart. Instead of having to farm PvP/WvW and Instanced PvE content I can casually run around an open map farming a set currency. This ease of access means that a player can pick the stats they know they will use, farm that and do so at a fraction the investment of a Legendary. > > As you stated, Legendaries do get all stats which is a bonus for sure but, there are 52 (I think I counted right) stat combo for armor/weapon it appears, how many of those would the average player need or want? If given the system you presented, how many stat sets do you think players will farm for? 3? 5? 10? And once invested in your system, would a player be more likely to put more Ascended gear into it, or break from it and start farming Legendaries? There are many Ascended items that can be farmed with no Tradeskills, no Instances, no Competitive Modes, no Collections, no Quests.... > > To avoid this trap and to keep Legendaries relevant, the cost to either attain Ascended gear would have to increase or the cost to use your proposed system would need to be relatively high to not detract from Legendaries investment. All things that could be sorted out for sure, but given that Legendary already fulfills this purpose (or will with the Legendary armory) why have Ascended do the same at a potentially increased cost? > > As a player, I used to be a hardcore MinMaxer, someone who put the minimum required into the game to get the maximum effect. That part of me loves your suggestion as it would bypass the need to ever look at Legendary items. The time investment, having to suck it up and figure out PvP and WvW, the crafting mats and quests, all gone and forgotten. Your system would make it easier for me to ignore giant chunks of game content in the pursuit of Legendaries. I have no shame in exploiting what I perceive as gaps or weaknesses in game systems (not cheating just, taking advantage of what is presented) and your system presents a gap between Legendaries and Ascended I could drive a truck through. Well, we could reduce crafting costs for ascended armor, but then highly increase the storage costs. The end cost would be the same for crafted ascended equipment, but get more expensive for loot and vendor options. Still, I see no problem at gear becoming more accessible. GW2 was never meant to have gear treadmills, hell, back at release legendaries were just skins, and ascended gear didn't even exist, exotic being the best rarity. > @"Yuffi.2430" said: > I appreciate you spent a lot of time designing your new system, and it is good to share ideas. > However, at present the only differences between Ascended and Legendary items is that Legendary items look better (opinions may vary) and can change stats (which is useful). Your armory system reduces this to Legendary items have a different skin. So what's the point of having them at all? > It's not hard to get ascended items, and these are already the highest stats you can get. Currently the only disadvantage for ascended items is if you want to have several different stat options on one character, where multiple sets take up space in your inventory/bank. Even then, it's much cheaper to buy more storage for this than to make a Legendary set. Most people only make legendary weapons for the skin, don't they? Stat selection was only added years after release. > @"Cleopatra.4068" said: > Legendary equipment was originally supposed to be a prestige item. It had the same stats and utility as exotic armor. All the additional perks of legendary armor were added later. I don’t really care if it gets devalued or not. > > I like this idea. Same thing happened when the wardrobe was introduced, lot of people went mad since now you could reskin any weapon as legendary, making their weapons loss all their value and whatnot. Then legendary weapons proceeded to spike in price anyway, since 99% of the people only cares about the skin.