Shirlias.8104 Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > I still don't see why people are blaming "Raids" when the real blame is on inadequate group finding tools. > > If the game had proper filtering, request, restrictions and had ways to find people and guilds which are active in your timezone who do similar activities as you, im sure that'd solve the problem more than anything anyone can do to "Raids". What would be the difference between a pug raid made with the current tool and the new one? I mean, given 10 players which sucks or tend to be upset easily... what improvement could bring a better LFG tool in terms of efficiency? To me, the only things that could change is the time needed to set up the raid, but the outcome would be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 > @"LordOtto.2650" said: > > @"Snipoukos.4912" said: > > > @"LordOtto.2650" said: > > > What do you guys think? It is worth more then 280 gold?!! The people should just agree that one Boss max how much can it cost, and not the sellers! If they want + gold, then accept the communities deal or no deal! This should be the normal mentality! > > > > That's not how the market works. Raid selling isn't that different from Trading post. If an item is really rare or unique then the price can be really high , doesn't matter if you are willing to pay for it or not. The more accessible the item the lower the price goes , unless every item owner agrees to sell it at the same price aka price fix. Basic economic model of supply and demand. Same principle applies to raid selling as well > > > > > > > > You can't read I guess?! If there are no buyers, there are no sellers, end of story! Just see on dulfy how many people said they won't buy Dhuum, even if it unlocks the legendary ring! It doesn't worth it! Dhuum will go down like the rest of the other bosses, because almost nobody pays that amount of gold! When the community will pay how much they want for it, then sellers will remain without +gold or they will do it, how the community desires it! > We can show Anet, that if they tricked us, putting a legendary ring collection into last raid boss, and have to kill it, which in the first weeks wasn't necessary, we can play their game too, like this! Correct and until it drops to a low price, there obviously is/was people paying that high price for it. Almost nobody paying a price is not the same as nobody paying a price. If you were part of a pro guild in the first 2 weeks without competition as far as Dhuum kills, you could dictate the price almost as much as you wanted since if anyone wanted the kill for gold, they had to come to you. This obviously changes over time both in the amount of people able to sell Dhuum kills as well as the amount of people willing to pay gold for the kill. Lowering the price in this case creates more demand since more people might be willing to pay a lower price. You keep looking at events in the game from your own personal subjective perspective. That's never a good idea when trying to explain or analyze economic changes/events. > @"maxwelgm.4315" said: > Well I was not talking about OP's problem, I was asking, specifically, if you as individuals look through your previous encounters, how many _strictly_ new people you have met by raiding; because that is the claim right, that there are more groups raiding. And so raiders should be able to notice this directly (because community is tight-knit and rather small as is) rather than describe it as a general phenomenon. I'm getting more and more the feeling that the raiding community between US and EU is vastly different. While I wouldn't call the EU raiding scene huge, it's definately big enough to be able to raid multiple weeks/months in a row without running into the same people. Sure if you raid at the exact same time every week, you might run into someone from the past. Not sure how this would be on US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > I still don't see why people are blaming "Raids" when the real blame is on inadequate group finding tools. > > > > If the game had proper filtering, request, restrictions and had ways to find people and guilds which are active in your timezone who do similar activities as you, im sure that'd solve the problem more than anything anyone can do to "Raids". > > What would be the difference between a pug raid made with the current tool and the new one? > I mean, given 10 players which sucks or tend to be upset easily... what improvement could bring a better LFG tool in terms of efficiency? > > To me, the only things that could change is the time needed to set up the raid, but the outcome would be the same. Notice i didn't say new LFG. I said better group finding tools. The guild system for one is extremely dated for modern MMO's. As a starter there's no effective way to search for guilds and ultimately you rely on 3rd party websites/in-game map chat spam or word of mouth from an acquaintance. That's where i'd start if i was a designer looking to improve the experience for everyone. As stated this should come with not only a member count but also be able to be parsed by peak activity levels and have the guilds be able to flag associated content PvE/PvP/WvW. Once the Guild overhaul is done with and there's a reasonable way to find a guild for people i'd wager half of the complaints about group finding will diminish. Leaving the vocal majority being the lone wolf crowd who refuse to join a guild because reasons. Then i'd work on a proper LFG that is not automated. Doing this gives the group full control on what criteria they wish to accept people in thus removing the forceful side of the argument that everyone deserves to be in a group. Now everyone can join a group if they adhere to the groups criteria. Be it a kill proof (i dont care if a group uses one to filter), Gear, class or traits. Now you'll likely say but how is any of that different than current outside of a better presentation ? The answer is simple it places the agency in the player(s) whom want to raid hands and removes the nature of the poor pitiful me complaints. Additionally, to answer the last question if people are going to be upset or fail when raiding that's not an issue proper group finding will ever fix nor is it an issue any dev should waste time trying to fix. No raid encounter should come with a guarantee of completion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 The issue is NOT lfg tools. The issue is that the raiding design philosophy is skewed towards a requirement to rote memorize fight patterns over time, rather than emergent reactive gameplay. current gw2 raids are therefore fundamentally not suited to pug groups/majority of the game population as pug groups are neither stable or have players who have learned each other strengths or weaknesses over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > The issue is NOT lfg tools. The issue is that the raiding design philosophy is skewed towards a requirement to rote memorize fight patterns over time, rather than emergent reactive gameplay. current gw2 raids are therefore fundamentally not suited to pug groups/majority of the game population as pug groups are neither stable or have players who have learned each other strengths or weaknesses over time. ....and how do you get rid of Pugs if not for better group and community building tools ? Remember if you want the constant success that is killing bosses, then it's on you as a player to limit the randomness from anything outside of the raid mechanics themselves. This means finding people who are willing to work with you and learn alongside you. Not hitching yourself onto those that already can and expecting them to take you along because you think you have a right to do the content without putting in the time and effort they already have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > I still don't see why people are blaming "Raids" when the real blame is on inadequate group finding tools. > > > > > > If the game had proper filtering, request, restrictions and had ways to find people and guilds which are active in your timezone who do similar activities as you, im sure that'd solve the problem more than anything anyone can do to "Raids". > > > > What would be the difference between a pug raid made with the current tool and the new one? > > I mean, given 10 players which sucks or tend to be upset easily... what improvement could bring a better LFG tool in terms of efficiency? > > > > To me, the only things that could change is the time needed to set up the raid, but the outcome would be the same. > > Notice i didn't say new LFG. I said better group finding tools. > > The guild system for one is extremely dated for modern MMO's. As a starter there's no effective way to search for guilds and ultimately you rely on 3rd party websites/in-game map chat spam or word of mouth from an acquaintance. > > That's where i'd start if i was a designer looking to improve the experience for everyone. As stated this should come with not only a member count but also be able to be parsed by peak activity levels and have the guilds be able to flag associated content PvE/PvP/WvW. Once the Guild overhaul is done with and there's a reasonable way to find a guild for people i'd wager half of the complaints about group finding will diminish. Leaving the vocal majority being the lone wolf crowd who refuse to join a guild because reasons. > > Then i'd work on a proper LFG that is not automated. Doing this gives the group full control on what criteria they wish to accept people in thus removing the forceful side of the argument that everyone deserves to be in a group. Now everyone can join a group if they adhere to the groups criteria. Be it a kill proof (i dont care if a group uses one to filter), Gear, class or traits. > > Now you'll likely say but how is any of that different than current outside of a better presentation ? The answer is simple it places the agency in the player(s) whom want to raid hands and removes the nature of the poor pitiful me complaints. > > Additionally, to answer the last question if people are going to be upset or fail when raiding that's not an issue proper group finding will ever fix nor is it an issue any dev should waste time trying to fix. No raid encounter should come with a guarantee of completion. > > If Raids are gonna cause that much a problem, that you now expect them to revamp the LFG and Guild system for content that is only run by 3 - 7% of population, they better off removing them, and put that effort into making something more people will enjoy that won't need entire other systems overhauled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > I still don't see why people are blaming "Raids" when the real blame is on inadequate group finding tools. > > > > > > > > If the game had proper filtering, request, restrictions and had ways to find people and guilds which are active in your timezone who do similar activities as you, im sure that'd solve the problem more than anything anyone can do to "Raids". > > > > > > What would be the difference between a pug raid made with the current tool and the new one? > > > I mean, given 10 players which sucks or tend to be upset easily... what improvement could bring a better LFG tool in terms of efficiency? > > > > > > To me, the only things that could change is the time needed to set up the raid, but the outcome would be the same. > > > > Notice i didn't say new LFG. I said better group finding tools. > > > > The guild system for one is extremely dated for modern MMO's. As a starter there's no effective way to search for guilds and ultimately you rely on 3rd party websites/in-game map chat spam or word of mouth from an acquaintance. > > > > That's where i'd start if i was a designer looking to improve the experience for everyone. As stated this should come with not only a member count but also be able to be parsed by peak activity levels and have the guilds be able to flag associated content PvE/PvP/WvW. Once the Guild overhaul is done with and there's a reasonable way to find a guild for people i'd wager half of the complaints about group finding will diminish. Leaving the vocal majority being the lone wolf crowd who refuse to join a guild because reasons. > > > > Then i'd work on a proper LFG that is not automated. Doing this gives the group full control on what criteria they wish to accept people in thus removing the forceful side of the argument that everyone deserves to be in a group. Now everyone can join a group if they adhere to the groups criteria. Be it a kill proof (i dont care if a group uses one to filter), Gear, class or traits. > > > > Now you'll likely say but how is any of that different than current outside of a better presentation ? The answer is simple it places the agency in the player(s) whom want to raid hands and removes the nature of the poor pitiful me complaints. > > > > Additionally, to answer the last question if people are going to be upset or fail when raiding that's not an issue proper group finding will ever fix nor is it an issue any dev should waste time trying to fix. No raid encounter should come with a guarantee of completion. > > > > > > If Raids are gonna cause that much a problem, that you now expect them to revamp the LFG and Guild system for content that is only run by 3 - 7% of population, they better off removing them, and put that effort into making something more people will enjoy that won't need entire other systems overhauled. These things would also benefits fractals, story missions and other party generating tools. My fear is this, I like Raids, however I think most of us can agree that it would benefit from having many more players experiencing the content regardless of the niche type of content it is. What happens if player population dwindle. I would not be surprised if the raid team would fall into the same category as dungeons with Anet advising that there are now 6 or 7 wings for raids are out that they no longer support this type of content. Living World would probably never get axed and in a few short episodes there will be a complete set of Legendary weapons for the 2nd generation. I guess it would also depend if W6 would be part of the gift of the ring collection as well, which I suspect it will be, but where does that leave for W7? I just hope that this game mode doesn’t become unsupported content like dungeons, which clearly Anet isn’t afraid of doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > I still don't see why people are blaming "Raids" when the real blame is on inadequate group finding tools. > > > > > > > > > > If the game had proper filtering, request, restrictions and had ways to find people and guilds which are active in your timezone who do similar activities as you, im sure that'd solve the problem more than anything anyone can do to "Raids". > > > > > > > > What would be the difference between a pug raid made with the current tool and the new one? > > > > I mean, given 10 players which sucks or tend to be upset easily... what improvement could bring a better LFG tool in terms of efficiency? > > > > > > > > To me, the only things that could change is the time needed to set up the raid, but the outcome would be the same. > > > > > > Notice i didn't say new LFG. I said better group finding tools. > > > > > > The guild system for one is extremely dated for modern MMO's. As a starter there's no effective way to search for guilds and ultimately you rely on 3rd party websites/in-game map chat spam or word of mouth from an acquaintance. > > > > > > That's where i'd start if i was a designer looking to improve the experience for everyone. As stated this should come with not only a member count but also be able to be parsed by peak activity levels and have the guilds be able to flag associated content PvE/PvP/WvW. Once the Guild overhaul is done with and there's a reasonable way to find a guild for people i'd wager half of the complaints about group finding will diminish. Leaving the vocal majority being the lone wolf crowd who refuse to join a guild because reasons. > > > > > > Then i'd work on a proper LFG that is not automated. Doing this gives the group full control on what criteria they wish to accept people in thus removing the forceful side of the argument that everyone deserves to be in a group. Now everyone can join a group if they adhere to the groups criteria. Be it a kill proof (i dont care if a group uses one to filter), Gear, class or traits. > > > > > > Now you'll likely say but how is any of that different than current outside of a better presentation ? The answer is simple it places the agency in the player(s) whom want to raid hands and removes the nature of the poor pitiful me complaints. > > > > > > Additionally, to answer the last question if people are going to be upset or fail when raiding that's not an issue proper group finding will ever fix nor is it an issue any dev should waste time trying to fix. No raid encounter should come with a guarantee of completion. > > > > > > > > > > If Raids are gonna cause that much a problem, that you now expect them to revamp the LFG and Guild system for content that is only run by 3 - 7% of population, they better off removing them, and put that effort into making something more people will enjoy that won't need entire other systems overhauled. > > These things would also benefits fractals, story missions and other party generating tools. My fear is this, I like Raids, however I think most of us can agree that it would benefit from having many more players experiencing the content regardless of the niche type of content it is. What happens if player population dwindle. I would not be surprised if the raid team would fall into the same category as dungeons with Anet advising that there are now 6 or 7 wings for raids are out that they no longer support this type of content. Living World would probably never get axed and in a few short episodes there will be a complete set of Legendary weapons for the 2nd generation. I guess it would also depend if W6 would be part of the gift of the ring collection as well, which I suspect it will be, but where does that leave for W7? I just hope that this game mode doesn’t become unsupported content like dungeons. Messing with the LFG or Guilds. would have no effect on Living story ,and Fractals have been doing just fine for half a decade with the current system. Right now, Anet has made it clear, this Raids are their hard stuff, it's not meant for the masses, and if sometime in the future if the raid teams wants to save their jobs or whatever, and needs to find a way to bring in the masses, I am sure they can suddenly figure how to make a "story mode" work. Saying we have to mess with everything else to make raids work.. just makes them look like a huge pile of more trouble then they are worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > I still don't see why people are blaming "Raids" when the real blame is on inadequate group finding tools. > > > > > > > > > > > > If the game had proper filtering, request, restrictions and had ways to find people and guilds which are active in your timezone who do similar activities as you, im sure that'd solve the problem more than anything anyone can do to "Raids". > > > > > > > > > > What would be the difference between a pug raid made with the current tool and the new one? > > > > > I mean, given 10 players which sucks or tend to be upset easily... what improvement could bring a better LFG tool in terms of efficiency? > > > > > > > > > > To me, the only things that could change is the time needed to set up the raid, but the outcome would be the same. > > > > > > > > Notice i didn't say new LFG. I said better group finding tools. > > > > > > > > The guild system for one is extremely dated for modern MMO's. As a starter there's no effective way to search for guilds and ultimately you rely on 3rd party websites/in-game map chat spam or word of mouth from an acquaintance. > > > > > > > > That's where i'd start if i was a designer looking to improve the experience for everyone. As stated this should come with not only a member count but also be able to be parsed by peak activity levels and have the guilds be able to flag associated content PvE/PvP/WvW. Once the Guild overhaul is done with and there's a reasonable way to find a guild for people i'd wager half of the complaints about group finding will diminish. Leaving the vocal majority being the lone wolf crowd who refuse to join a guild because reasons. > > > > > > > > Then i'd work on a proper LFG that is not automated. Doing this gives the group full control on what criteria they wish to accept people in thus removing the forceful side of the argument that everyone deserves to be in a group. Now everyone can join a group if they adhere to the groups criteria. Be it a kill proof (i dont care if a group uses one to filter), Gear, class or traits. > > > > > > > > Now you'll likely say but how is any of that different than current outside of a better presentation ? The answer is simple it places the agency in the player(s) whom want to raid hands and removes the nature of the poor pitiful me complaints. > > > > > > > > Additionally, to answer the last question if people are going to be upset or fail when raiding that's not an issue proper group finding will ever fix nor is it an issue any dev should waste time trying to fix. No raid encounter should come with a guarantee of completion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Raids are gonna cause that much a problem, that you now expect them to revamp the LFG and Guild system for content that is only run by 3 - 7% of population, they better off removing them, and put that effort into making something more people will enjoy that won't need entire other systems overhauled. > > > > These things would also benefits fractals, story missions and other party generating tools. My fear is this, I like Raids, however I think most of us can agree that it would benefit from having many more players experiencing the content regardless of the niche type of content it is. What happens if player population dwindle. I would not be surprised if the raid team would fall into the same category as dungeons with Anet advising that there are now 6 or 7 wings for raids are out that they no longer support this type of content. Living World would probably never get axed and in a few short episodes there will be a complete set of Legendary weapons for the 2nd generation. I guess it would also depend if W6 would be part of the gift of the ring collection as well, which I suspect it will be, but where does that leave for W7? I just hope that this game mode doesn’t become unsupported content like dungeons. > > Messing with the LFG or Guilds. would have no effect on Living story ,and Fractals have been doing just fine for half a decade with the current system. > > Right now, Anet has made it clear, this Raids are their hard stuff, it's not meant for the masses, and if sometime in the future if the raid teams wants to save their jobs or whatever, and needs to find a way to bring in the masses, I am sure they can suddenly figure how to make a "story mode" work. > > Saying we have to mess with everything else to make raids work.. just makes them look like a huge pile of more trouble then they are worth. I worry about this because I understand that it’s niche content, however with potentially wing 7 what would the carrot be? Another legendary item, no legendary item? I understand people want the challenge, but what if there is no legendary reward? Also once this wing is out, will raiders still want to do as much raiding? Would this then shrink the niche content into an unpopular content aka Stronghold, that the devs will no longer support, but will obviously keep in the game just like dungeons? I think Anet should be trying to increase this niche content somehow before they decide to not support it because if they decide it’s not worth the development time, it’s over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raikidd.5803 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: >The issue is that the raiding design philosophy is skewed towards a requirement to rote memorize fight patterns over time, rather than emergent reactive gameplay. current gw2 raids are therefore fundamentally not suited to pug groups/majority of the game population as pug groups are neither stable or have players who have learned each other strengths or weaknesses over time. .... Let's remember Keep Construct and how is one of the most hated boss in the game because of the random element or how easy is at Matthias to get targeted in succession by multiple random skills, is so easy there to die from rngesus that my team banned 11k hp classes there. And if you think that the fights in gw2 are too based on memorisation I recommend you to watch a raid in ff14, where a 5min fight has a 15min [video guide]( "video guide") because the boss always uses the same attacks pattern each time. Random fights are not fun, are annoying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"Raikidd.5803" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > >The issue is that the raiding design philosophy is skewed towards a requirement to rote memorize fight patterns over time, rather than emergent reactive gameplay. current gw2 raids are therefore fundamentally not suited to pug groups/majority of the game population as pug groups are neither stable or have players who have learned each other strengths or weaknesses over time. > > .... Let's remember Keep Construct and how is one of the most hated boss in the game because of the random element or how easy is at Matthias to get targeted in succession by multiple random skills, is so easy there to die from rngesus that my team banned 11k hp classes there. And if you think that the fights in gw2 are too based on memorisation I recommend you to watch a raid in ff14, where a 5min fight has a 15min [video guide]( "video guide") because the boss always uses the same attacks pattern each time. Random fights are not fun, are annoying. > Random **tightly** tuned fights are annoying to raiders, as I said and you confirmed- raiders want rote memorisable fight patterns, it allows them to minmax e.g have 11khp/max dps setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raikidd.5803 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"Raikidd.5803" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > >The issue is that the raiding design philosophy is skewed towards a requirement to rote memorize fight patterns over time, rather than emergent reactive gameplay. current gw2 raids are therefore fundamentally not suited to pug groups/majority of the game population as pug groups are neither stable or have players who have learned each other strengths or weaknesses over time. > > > > .... Let's remember Keep Construct and how is one of the most hated boss in the game because of the random element or how easy is at Matthias to get targeted in succession by multiple random skills, is so easy there to die from rngesus that my team banned 11k hp classes there. And if you think that the fights in gw2 are too based on memorisation I recommend you to watch a raid in ff14, where a 5min fight has a 15min [video guide]( "video guide") because the boss always uses the same attacks pattern each time. Random fights are not fun, are annoying. > > > Random **tightly** tuned fights are annoying to raiders, as I said and you confirmed- raiders want rote memorisable fight patterns, it allows them to minmax e.g have 11khp/max dps setup. > I haven't said what I dislike at kc/matt and I don't know if you know what I mean. At KC is the timed bomb/phantasms, we know when the boss will choose one of the two to cast but not what and choosing phantasms makes the fight a **lot** more easier than getting timed bombs. IMO there is a bad design philosophy, both mechanics should have the same difficulty , rng should not dictate the difficulty of the fight. Is the same at tacking an exam with two versions, by chance your colleague gets the easier version, but you get the hard version. At KC the RNG makes the fight not fair. As Matthias the offender is fire phase where just a single player can get targeted by pretty much every skill Matthias casts, i.e. unstable blood magic into corruption into a oppressive gaze in his direction. Is not fun being targeted by everything and the rest of the group to just damage the boss. So yes, my group bans 11k hp classes because is very easy to die from rng. Is not about not knowing what attack comes, is targeting the same person over and over again. What I wanted to show is not that I hate not knowing what attack the boss will cast, but rng that isn't fair and not equal distributed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"Raikidd.5803" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > @"Raikidd.5803" said: > > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > >The issue is that the raiding design philosophy is skewed towards a requirement to rote memorize fight patterns over time, rather than emergent reactive gameplay. current gw2 raids are therefore fundamentally not suited to pug groups/majority of the game population as pug groups are neither stable or have players who have learned each other strengths or weaknesses over time. > > > > > > .... Let's remember Keep Construct and how is one of the most hated boss in the game because of the random element or how easy is at Matthias to get targeted in succession by multiple random skills, is so easy there to die from rngesus that my team banned 11k hp classes there. And if you think that the fights in gw2 are too based on memorisation I recommend you to watch a raid in ff14, where a 5min fight has a 15min [video guide]( "video guide") because the boss always uses the same attacks pattern each time. Random fights are not fun, are annoying. > > > > > Random **tightly** tuned fights are annoying to raiders, as I said and you confirmed- raiders want rote memorisable fight patterns, it allows them to minmax e.g have 11khp/max dps setup. > > > > I haven't said what I dislike at kc/matt and I don't know if you know what I mean. At KC is the timed bomb/phantasms, we know when the boss will choose one of the two to cast but not what and choosing phantasms makes the fight a **lot** more easier than getting timed bombs. IMO there is a bad design philosophy, both mechanics should have the same difficulty , rng should not dictate the difficulty of the fight. Is the same at tacking an exam with two versions, by chance your colleague gets the easier version, but you get the hard version. At KC the RNG makes the fight not fair. See it as a freebee, consider the bomb mechanic as how difficult it is meant to be and the phantasm mechanic as a free "this is easier" intermezzo. You're essentially complaining that your group is unwilling to adapt to different boss mechanics, which its self is a test of skill. Also if splitting (in case your static is unable to burst the 2nd add in time and cc, which would mean your static has a lot of room for improvement) is considered that much higher difficulty wise, you are setting the bar very low. > @"Raikidd.5803" said: > As Matthias the offender is fire phase where just a single player can get targeted by pretty much every skill Matthias casts, i.e. unstable blood magic into corruption into a oppressive gaze in his direction. Is not fun being targeted by everything and the rest of the group to just damage the boss. So yes, my group bans 11k hp classes because is very easy to die from rng. Is not about not knowing what attack comes, is targeting the same person over and over again. > What I wanted to show is not that I hate not knowing what attack the boss will cast, but rng that isn't fair and not equal distributed. Tell your healers to stop sleeping and actually pay attention to the group and the squad life bars. This is a clear improvement issue from healers not pulling their weight. Does a druid have to step in if a damage dealer gets poison 3 times in a row? Sure, that's what they are there for. Being there as healer is not about just staying stacked and providing might and fury while brainlessly spamming your rotation. It's called situational awareness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I agree with Matthias being an awareness check for the healers. However, I think that GW2 makes that job, even when you look out for people who need heals, unnecessarily difficult due to its horribad interface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raikidd.5803 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: >You're essentially complaining that your group is unwilling to adapt to different boss mechanics, which its self is a test of skill. I'm complaining that rng can drastically change a fight's difficulty, especially if you are in progression. > @"Cyninja.2954" said: >Tell your healers to stop sleeping and actually pay attention to the group and the squad life bars. Or don't throw everything on one guy and balance the rng¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > I still don't see why people are blaming "Raids" when the real blame is on inadequate group finding tools. > > > > > > > > If the game had proper filtering, request, restrictions and had ways to find people and guilds which are active in your timezone who do similar activities as you, im sure that'd solve the problem more than anything anyone can do to "Raids". > > > > > > What would be the difference between a pug raid made with the current tool and the new one? > > > I mean, given 10 players which sucks or tend to be upset easily... what improvement could bring a better LFG tool in terms of efficiency? > > > > > > To me, the only things that could change is the time needed to set up the raid, but the outcome would be the same. > > > > Notice i didn't say new LFG. I said better group finding tools. > > > > The guild system for one is extremely dated for modern MMO's. As a starter there's no effective way to search for guilds and ultimately you rely on 3rd party websites/in-game map chat spam or word of mouth from an acquaintance. > > > > That's where i'd start if i was a designer looking to improve the experience for everyone. As stated this should come with not only a member count but also be able to be parsed by peak activity levels and have the guilds be able to flag associated content PvE/PvP/WvW. Once the Guild overhaul is done with and there's a reasonable way to find a guild for people i'd wager half of the complaints about group finding will diminish. Leaving the vocal majority being the lone wolf crowd who refuse to join a guild because reasons. > > > > Then i'd work on a proper LFG that is not automated. Doing this gives the group full control on what criteria they wish to accept people in thus removing the forceful side of the argument that everyone deserves to be in a group. Now everyone can join a group if they adhere to the groups criteria. Be it a kill proof (i dont care if a group uses one to filter), Gear, class or traits. > > > > Now you'll likely say but how is any of that different than current outside of a better presentation ? The answer is simple it places the agency in the player(s) whom want to raid hands and removes the nature of the poor pitiful me complaints. > > > > Additionally, to answer the last question if people are going to be upset or fail when raiding that's not an issue proper group finding will ever fix nor is it an issue any dev should waste time trying to fix. No raid encounter should come with a guarantee of completion. > > > > > > If Raids are gonna cause that much a problem, that you now expect them to revamp the LFG and Guild system for content that is only run by 3 - 7% of population, they better off removing them, and put that effort into making something more people will enjoy that won't need entire other systems overhauled. Raids aren't causing that problem. Poor group finding and a really lackadaisical community are. Giving people agency is how you solve that, and how you solve the agency problem is by modernizing your games tools. Also, doing this solves more than just "Raid" issues. It helps people arrange guilds for themselves that enjoy similar content at the times they play meaning their overall enjoyment for the game goes up as they always have someone or something to play with when they log in and don't have to sit there thinking why they've been running in circles for the past 20 minutes before inevitably logging out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > I agree with Matthias being an awareness check for the healers. However, I think that GW2 makes that job, even when you look out for people who need heals, unnecessarily difficult due to its horribad interface. Oh I agree, having at least life bars above players toggle for raids (if not desired for wvw or spvp) would help healers. > @"Raikidd.5803" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > >You're essentially complaining that your group is unwilling to adapt to different boss mechanics, which its self is a test of skill. > I'm complaining that rng can drastically change a fight's difficulty, especially if you are in progression. It's not drastic. It's basically the difference of 15 seconds if you decide to move out on a very long telegraphed attack. If this poses a problem, just have people always run out or be prepared to run out. > @"Raikidd.5803" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > >Tell your healers to stop sleeping and actually pay attention to the group and the squad life bars. > Or don't throw everything on one guy and balance the rng¯\_(ツ)_/¯. > Or keep the intended design the way it is and challenge part of the raid group. Same as tanks and damage dealers have to deal with on other fights. I get it though, you are upset because there is little you can do to avoid your death in this scenario and the group synergy with your healer is failing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordOtto.2650 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Well, I disagree on having health bars, there is the squad, at squad you can see the health bar! I have +900 li, I carry with druid or Minstrel firebrand, and one shot every boss! When you need health bar you are the problem, and the squad needs better healer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris McSwag.4683 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"LordOtto.2650" said: > Well, I disagree on having health bars, there is the squad, at squad you can see the health bar! I have +900 li, I carry with druid or Minstrel firebrand, and one shot every boss! When you need health bar you are the problem, and the squad needs better healer! Dhuum says hi xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > I still don't see why people are blaming "Raids" when the real blame is on inadequate group finding tools. > > > > > > > > > > If the game had proper filtering, request, restrictions and had ways to find people and guilds which are active in your timezone who do similar activities as you, im sure that'd solve the problem more than anything anyone can do to "Raids". > > > > > > > > What would be the difference between a pug raid made with the current tool and the new one? > > > > I mean, given 10 players which sucks or tend to be upset easily... what improvement could bring a better LFG tool in terms of efficiency? > > > > > > > > To me, the only things that could change is the time needed to set up the raid, but the outcome would be the same. > > > > > > Notice i didn't say new LFG. I said better group finding tools. > > > > > > The guild system for one is extremely dated for modern MMO's. As a starter there's no effective way to search for guilds and ultimately you rely on 3rd party websites/in-game map chat spam or word of mouth from an acquaintance. > > > > > > That's where i'd start if i was a designer looking to improve the experience for everyone. As stated this should come with not only a member count but also be able to be parsed by peak activity levels and have the guilds be able to flag associated content PvE/PvP/WvW. Once the Guild overhaul is done with and there's a reasonable way to find a guild for people i'd wager half of the complaints about group finding will diminish. Leaving the vocal majority being the lone wolf crowd who refuse to join a guild because reasons. > > > > > > Then i'd work on a proper LFG that is not automated. Doing this gives the group full control on what criteria they wish to accept people in thus removing the forceful side of the argument that everyone deserves to be in a group. Now everyone can join a group if they adhere to the groups criteria. Be it a kill proof (i dont care if a group uses one to filter), Gear, class or traits. > > > > > > Now you'll likely say but how is any of that different than current outside of a better presentation ? The answer is simple it places the agency in the player(s) whom want to raid hands and removes the nature of the poor pitiful me complaints. > > > > > > Additionally, to answer the last question if people are going to be upset or fail when raiding that's not an issue proper group finding will ever fix nor is it an issue any dev should waste time trying to fix. No raid encounter should come with a guarantee of completion. > > > > > > > > > > If Raids are gonna cause that much a problem, that you now expect them to revamp the LFG and Guild system for content that is only run by 3 - 7% of population, they better off removing them, and put that effort into making something more people will enjoy that won't need entire other systems overhauled. > > Raids aren't causing that problem. Poor group finding and a really lackadaisical community are. Giving people agency is how you solve that, and how you solve the agency problem is by modernizing your games tools. > > Also, doing this solves more than just "Raid" issues. It helps people arrange guilds for themselves that enjoy similar content at the times they play meaning their overall enjoyment for the game goes up as they always have someone or something to play with when they log in and don't have to sit there thinking why they've been running in circles for the past 20 minutes before inevitably logging out. Don't waste my time with this tripe. Lets get real, most Guild Leaders would just click everything. The number of guild leaders that would bother to make a guild for specialize content (outside of WvW), is less then then those that Raid, so this would be a ton of work, for nothing. If you listen to guild spam is's either PvX, or WvW, (and WvW only because it's server exclusive), I have never once heard or met anyone in a guild that only does Dungeons, or only does fractals, or only does Living World. There was one guild that did Tri-Worm, and they advertised that in game when they did TTT, which is how things should be, if you do world events, **advertising at world events is how you get like minded people to join your guild**. Just like WvW guilds advertise in their server as they play, **that is how you find like minded people who are playing when you are playing**. To have tags or guild lists is silly, because lets get real, the people that can't be bothered to do a 5 min google search to find a raid guild are not the kind of people that will study raids and builds, learn the mechanics, and so forth. All your idea would do is make it easier or people to spam invite themselves into raid guilds, which.. last I looked.. **No one wants**. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said: > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > I still don't see why people are blaming "Raids" when the real blame is on inadequate group finding tools. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the game had proper filtering, request, restrictions and had ways to find people and guilds which are active in your timezone who do similar activities as you, im sure that'd solve the problem more than anything anyone can do to "Raids". > > > > > > > > > > > > What would be the difference between a pug raid made with the current tool and the new one? > > > > > > I mean, given 10 players which sucks or tend to be upset easily... what improvement could bring a better LFG tool in terms of efficiency? > > > > > > > > > > > > To me, the only things that could change is the time needed to set up the raid, but the outcome would be the same. > > > > > > > > > > Notice i didn't say new LFG. I said better group finding tools. > > > > > > > > > > The guild system for one is extremely dated for modern MMO's. As a starter there's no effective way to search for guilds and ultimately you rely on 3rd party websites/in-game map chat spam or word of mouth from an acquaintance. > > > > > > > > > > That's where i'd start if i was a designer looking to improve the experience for everyone. As stated this should come with not only a member count but also be able to be parsed by peak activity levels and have the guilds be able to flag associated content PvE/PvP/WvW. Once the Guild overhaul is done with and there's a reasonable way to find a guild for people i'd wager half of the complaints about group finding will diminish. Leaving the vocal majority being the lone wolf crowd who refuse to join a guild because reasons. > > > > > > > > > > Then i'd work on a proper LFG that is not automated. Doing this gives the group full control on what criteria they wish to accept people in thus removing the forceful side of the argument that everyone deserves to be in a group. Now everyone can join a group if they adhere to the groups criteria. Be it a kill proof (i dont care if a group uses one to filter), Gear, class or traits. > > > > > > > > > > Now you'll likely say but how is any of that different than current outside of a better presentation ? The answer is simple it places the agency in the player(s) whom want to raid hands and removes the nature of the poor pitiful me complaints. > > > > > > > > > > Additionally, to answer the last question if people are going to be upset or fail when raiding that's not an issue proper group finding will ever fix nor is it an issue any dev should waste time trying to fix. No raid encounter should come with a guarantee of completion. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If Raids are gonna cause that much a problem, that you now expect them to revamp the LFG and Guild system for content that is only run by 3 - 7% of population, they better off removing them, and put that effort into making something more people will enjoy that won't need entire other systems overhauled. > > > > > > These things would also benefits fractals, story missions and other party generating tools. My fear is this, I like Raids, however I think most of us can agree that it would benefit from having many more players experiencing the content regardless of the niche type of content it is. What happens if player population dwindle. I would not be surprised if the raid team would fall into the same category as dungeons with Anet advising that there are now 6 or 7 wings for raids are out that they no longer support this type of content. Living World would probably never get axed and in a few short episodes there will be a complete set of Legendary weapons for the 2nd generation. I guess it would also depend if W6 would be part of the gift of the ring collection as well, which I suspect it will be, but where does that leave for W7? I just hope that this game mode doesn’t become unsupported content like dungeons. > > > > Messing with the LFG or Guilds. would have no effect on Living story ,and Fractals have been doing just fine for half a decade with the current system. > > > > Right now, Anet has made it clear, this Raids are their hard stuff, it's not meant for the masses, and if sometime in the future if the raid teams wants to save their jobs or whatever, and needs to find a way to bring in the masses, I am sure they can suddenly figure how to make a "story mode" work. > > > > Saying we have to mess with everything else to make raids work.. just makes them look like a huge pile of more trouble then they are worth. > > I worry about this because I understand that it’s niche content, however with potentially wing 7 what would the carrot be? Another legendary item, no legendary item? I understand people want the challenge, but what if there is no legendary reward? > > Also once this wing is out, will raiders still want to do as much raiding? Would this then shrink the niche content into an unpopular content aka Stronghold, that the devs will no longer support, but will obviously keep in the game just like dungeons? > > I think Anet should be trying to increase this niche content somehow before they decide to not support it because if they decide it’s not worth the development time, it’s over. Look.. it's not your place to worry about it, Anet made this content knowing full well this was not for the majority of players, they have made it clear they don't intend to make this content attractive outside the demographic it was designed for, so, they are not trying to bolster the number of people that play it, at least not currently, If they decide they want to make it more accessible to the masses that are not up to the challenge, then the answer lies in the raid content itself, not the LFG or Guild systems.. If higher-ups decided it was a mistake and drop it, there is nothing you or I can do about it. So at this point, there is no need to worry, just enjoy the game and content. Whatever will be.. will be. Many other games have far worse LFG and Guild systems, and their raid culture is doing just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > they have made it clear they don't intend to make this content attractive outside the demographic it was designed for Actually, the whole raid reward system is for making this content attractive also for the people the content itself is not designed for. Which is one of the main reasons behind the existence of the problem OP brought up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > they have made it clear they don't intend to make this content attractive outside the demographic it was designed for > Actually, the whole raid reward system is for making this content attractive also for the people the content itself is not designed for. > > No offence that makes about as much sense as saying "We put potatoes with the steak to make it more attractive to vegans" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelgm.4315 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > they have made it clear they don't intend to make this content attractive outside the demographic it was designed for > > Actually, the whole raid reward system is for making this content attractive also for the people the content itself is not designed for. > > > > > > No offence that makes about as much sense as saying "We put potatoes with the steak to make it more attractive to vegans" Both of you are losing yourselves in extremes by now. I'm pretty sure you are not implying that we should move all raid skins to somewhere else and leave Raids with only titles so that people can enjoy it in a "pure state" without reward-seeking, only for personal challenge. Besides, Anet has pulled this tactic on PvP and it worked to some extent and to the dismay of many PvPers, with the league pip system giving attractive rewards even to PvE players that might want to try out the ranked PvP. It doesn't work on Raids mostly because you need 10 players that can finish the Raid, and also because you only get rewards at they very end and only IF you can get to the very end. Still, Anet does it a lot if you look around the game modes; from Fractals to PvP, WvW (they've been crying rewards for years now, the mode was stagnating beyond all measure and now seems to have stabilized in spite of many issues), Living World, and Raids, there is always lots of incentive in the form of rewards, as well as incentive through the gameplay itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 > @"maxwelgm.4315" said: > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said: > > > > they have made it clear they don't intend to make this content attractive outside the demographic it was designed for > > > Actually, the whole raid reward system is for making this content attractive also for the people the content itself is not designed for. > > > > > > > > > > No offence that makes about as much sense as saying "We put potatoes with the steak to make it more attractive to vegans" > > Both of you are losing yourselves in extremes by now. I'm pretty sure you are not implying that we should move all raid skins to somewhere else and leave Raids with only titles so that people can enjoy it in a "pure state" without reward-seeking, only for personal challenge. > > Besides, Anet has pulled this tactic on PvP and it worked to some extent and to the dismay of many PvPers, with the league pip system giving attractive rewards even to PvE players that might want to try out the ranked PvP. It doesn't work on Raids mostly because you need 10 players that can finish the Raid, and also because you only get rewards at they very end and only IF you can get to the very end. > > Still, Anet does it a lot if you look around the game modes; from Fractals to PvP, WvW (they've been crying rewards for years now, the mode was stagnating beyond all measure and now seems to have stabilized in spite of many issues), Living World, and Raids, there is always lots of incentive in the form of rewards, as well as incentive through the gameplay itself. Everything is done to make it more rewarding for the people that enjoy it, not to make the people that hate it suffer though it. If the goal is to coheres people to do content they won't enjoy and play with people they don't want to... then they really need to step back and revisit what they are trying to accomplish with this games reward system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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