Holosmith damage is too crazy

[MithranArkanere.8957]

The only problem I see with it is that it can chain too much damage on enemies they disable themselves.

 

That would be easily solved globably with one of the basic balance mechanics GW2 lacks: Stunlock damage reduction. The more hits someone takes without leaving a disable state, the least damage they must take.

[Undo.5091]

The only real issues with engineer (in my opinion) are the traits Minesweeper (mines released on dodge) and Self Regulating Defenses (Elixer S proc when struck under 25% health), but only one of these can be more easily addressed. Minesweeper is just unhealthy and stupid to fight as or against, while SRD is a hated trait because engineer players _need_ it. This trait is a requirement to survive focus in team fights, but frequently screws over the user through interrupting heals, cleanses, and offensive pushes. I’m sure most players would like to see this trait removed from the game, but a rehaul of other traits would be necessary just to do this.

[corey.6451]

Their damage isn't the problem. Their forge up time is.

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"corey.6451" said:

> Their damage isn't the problem. Their forge up time is.

 

Based on traits to make it longer (Vent Exhaust) and try to deal high burst / dmg with rifle alone ... and ppl seems to forget the overheating ... which screwed an engineer most of the time (l2p issue i know but it happens sometimes)

 

My point is , holosmith works that way thanks to trait and utilies that synergized like hell.

Dodging dmg = Evasive powder keg + Minesweeper + Vent Exhaust

High time Photon Forge = Vent Exhaust + Elixir R + HGH (elixir trait)

Damaging multiplier = Solar Focusing lens + Laser's edge + Shaped Charge + Glass Canon (that's the trait's name, don't get triggered)

 

Defensive trait/abilities = Elixir S + Self Regulating Defense + HGH (the Alchemy trait line basically)

 

Engineer specs to get dmg/burst to make it work so ... hopefully it deals dmg , however it won't be a viable build.

 

PPL saying it's not glass canon just cause it has 2 invul is kinda bias ... try to compare druid and SB specs and we can argue about it peacefully =)

[zoopop.5630]

yep holosmith damage is crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

oh wait.... forgot mesmers and necros are doing a better job at melting people faces down then us holo players :disappointed_relieved:

[corey.6451]

> @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > @"corey.6451" said:

> > Their damage isn't the problem. Their forge up time is.

>

> Based on traits to make it longer (Vent Exhaust) and try to deal high burst / dmg with rifle alone ... and ppl seems to forget the overheating ... which screwed an engineer most of the time (l2p issue i know but it happens sometimes)

>

> My point is , holosmith works that way thanks to trait and utilies that synergized like hell.

> Dodging dmg = Evasive powder keg + Minesweeper + Vent Exhaust

> High time Photon Forge = Vent Exhaust + Elixir R + HGH (elixir trait)

> Damaging multiplier = Solar Focusing lens + Laser's edge + Shaped Charge + Glass Canon (that's the trait's name, don't get triggered)

>

> Defensive trait/abilities = Elixir S + Self Regulating Defense + HGH (the Alchemy trait line basically)

>

> Engineer specs to get dmg/burst to make it work so ... hopefully it deals dmg , however it won't be a viable build.

>

> PPL saying it's not glass canon just cause it has 2 invul is kinda bias ... try to compare druid and SB specs and we can argue about it peacefully =)

 

It is a glass cannon. My only problem is the 5 sec CD on forge mode. 5 second window isn't no way near enough to kill a holosmith, if you're a melee class. Just seem like it should be on a 10 second CD at least. And again never said it isn't a glass cannon, cozz it is one of the best example of risk and reward elite.

 

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"corey.6451" said:

> > @"Nath Forge Tempete.1645" said:

> > > @"corey.6451" said:

> > > Their damage isn't the problem. Their forge up time is.

> >

> > Based on traits to make it longer (Vent Exhaust) and try to deal high burst / dmg with rifle alone ... and ppl seems to forget the overheating ... which screwed an engineer most of the time (l2p issue i know but it happens sometimes)

> >

> > My point is , holosmith works that way thanks to trait and utilies that synergized like hell.

> > Dodging dmg = Evasive powder keg + Minesweeper + Vent Exhaust

> > High time Photon Forge = Vent Exhaust + Elixir R + HGH (elixir trait)

> > Damaging multiplier = Solar Focusing lens + Laser's edge + Shaped Charge + Glass Canon (that's the trait's name, don't get triggered)

> >

> > Defensive trait/abilities = Elixir S + Self Regulating Defense + HGH (the Alchemy trait line basically)

> >

> > Engineer specs to get dmg/burst to make it work so ... hopefully it deals dmg , however it won't be a viable build.

> >

> > PPL saying it's not glass canon just cause it has 2 invul is kinda bias ... try to compare druid and SB specs and we can argue about it peacefully =)

>

> It is a glass cannon. My only problem is the 5 sec CD on forge mode. 5 second window isn't no way near enough to kill a holosmith, if you're a melee class. Just seem like it should be on a 10 second CD at least. And again never said it isn't a glass cannon, cozz it is one of the best example of risk and reward elite.

>

 

As I said , u don't have in mind the overheating , heat is growing and if you leave photon forge almost full (98%) it will only start decreasing 5 sec after . Yes dodge can't help with vent exhaust . However 8 sec CD can be a thing

 

EDIT: and i'm saying Sh*t ... It's 5 sec CD when you ENTER photon forge ... not when u leave it . Making it more problematic if you're high on heat lvl (overheating)

It's 1 sec CD when you leave it

[viquing.8254]

Bombs evade spammer is the first step to clonespammer comeback ? ;)

[Atmaweapon.7345]

Holo has some of the most telegraphed attacks in the entire game. PF #2 Holo Leap is slow, Stability generated from Corona Burst is a clear stability telegraph, PF #5 is super obvious and the shockwave is even visible when used from stealth so you can still dodge it.

 

Evade spam builds also comes with drawbacks. With the explosives traitline, dodge rolling during stealth will reveal you from bombs or mines so Holo can't stealth stall for Endurance like Mirage or Daredevil. Holo has to give up Alchemy in order to get better Endurance regeneration from Tools which also means they can't perma Vigor from Invigorating speed. Elixir R also is way, way worse than Thief's Signet of Agility. Holo also doesn't have the engage tools to make dodge spam work. Thieves and Mesmers have instant cast teleports on top of ranged condi applications from dodge. Meanwhile you dodge backwards from Holo Leap and hey, the Engi can't roll mines on top of you anymore.

 

[Crinn.7864]

idk why people think Holosmith has too much defense, Holosmith is squishiest class in the meta right now by a fair margin.

 

The only real issue that I see is that the hitboxes for proton forge skills is way too big. Forge 3 in particular has a insane range for what is supposedly a melee skill.

 

[zinkz.7045]

> @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> Holosmith has... excessive defense.

 

If you take the fairly typical holosmith build, it has no evades, no blocks, no aegis, no blinds, no protection, moderate condi removal that is limited in that it lacks a full clear skill, moderate mobility (nothing instant, nothing long range, nothing on z axis), is hardly a druid, tempest, etc when is comes to healing, so basically for defense has 2 invurns (one of which will actually kill the engi at times) that has one limited option to counterpressure (dodge roll) and can't do anything else to the point it is not uncommon that all elxir S does is delay the inevitable, a static reflect, stealth and good use of CC.

 

So how on earth does that equate to "excessive defense", really this forum is a fine example of why players in skilled proper PvP games take the mickey out of this game and genre (those that have even heard of it).

 

[Ferus.3165]

> @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > Holosmith has... excessive defense.

>

> If you take the fairly typical holosmith build, it has no evades, no blocks, no aegis, no blinds, no protection, moderate condi removal that is limited in that it lacks a full clear skill, moderate mobility (nothing instant, nothing long range, nothing on z axis), is hardly a druid, tempest, etc when is comes to healing, so basically for defense has 2 invurns (one of which will actually kill the engi at times) that has one limited option to counterpressure (dodge roll) and can't do anything else to the point it is not uncommon that all elxir S does is delay the inevitable, a static reflect, stealth and good use of CC.

>

> So how on earth does that equate to "excessive defense", really this forum is a fine example of why players in skilled proper PvP games take the mickey out of this game and genre (those that have even heard of it).

>

 

'cept that holo does have evades, blocks, protection and very good mobility combined with stealth and good cc skills ontop of very high power burst and sustained dps. Don't get me wrong. Mirage, Firebrand and Scourge are still superior, but when those get taken down with the next balance patch, Holosmith will be the top of the food chain no doubt.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Ferus.3165" said:

> > @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > Holosmith has... excessive defense.

> >

> > If you take the fairly typical holosmith build, it has no evades, no blocks, no aegis, no blinds, no protection, moderate condi removal that is limited in that it lacks a full clear skill, moderate mobility (nothing instant, nothing long range, nothing on z axis), is hardly a druid, tempest, etc when is comes to healing, so basically for defense has 2 invurns (one of which will actually kill the engi at times) that has one limited option to counterpressure (dodge roll) and can't do anything else to the point it is not uncommon that all elxir S does is delay the inevitable, a static reflect, stealth and good use of CC.

> >

> > So how on earth does that equate to "excessive defense", really this forum is a fine example of why players in skilled proper PvP games take the mickey out of this game and genre (those that have even heard of it).

> >

>

> 'cept that holo does have evades, blocks, protection and very good mobility combined with stealth and good cc skills ontop of very high power burst and sustained dps. Don't get me wrong. Mirage, Firebrand and Scourge are still superior, but when those get taken down with the next balance patch, Holosmith will be the top of the food chain no doubt.

 

Hun, what build are you looking at? Cuz I'm looking at this [one](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Marauder_Rifle "one"). There is no protection or block. Evades come from Elixir R (a skill that's been around forever and lived in obscurity for a long time) or vigor. Mobility is... swiftness. Holo leap is about the same as swiftness. That's not actually all that much mobility. We have 3 CC skills, 2 of which are highly telegraphed (holo hammer, prime light beam), the only non-telegraphed CC is from a core weapon...

 

Because it seems to me many of the complaints are actually being directed at core engineer, not holosmith itself. Many of the skills/traits have been virtually identical since game launch. The build is hilariously low on powercreep, with the exception of minesweeper and the damage output from Forge, which contains a significant number of drawbacks.

 

Speaking of which... when scourge is given a proper nerf, more builds that can actually counter the holo will become viable. Scrapper, for instance, can take on a holo and kick it around. But scrapper can't exist right now because of the scourge, whereas holo does high enough burst to knock scourge around.

 

TL; DR: When scourge and FB are brought to reasonable balance, holosmith will have to face tankier pressure builds that can't persist with the scourge around.

[Razor.6392]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > People keep saying holo is a glass cannon.

> >

> > No.

> >

> > FA weaver = glass cannon.

> >

> > 1 trick staff thief = glass cannon.

> >

> > Anything deadeye = glass cannon.

> >

> > Staff zerk ele = glass cannon.

> >

> > To a lesser extent, power shatter mantra mesmer = glass cannon.

> >

> > Glass cannon are those specs that are feast or famine, kill or be killed. No defenses, extremely weak to pressure, and pretty much dead if their main burst doesn't land.

> >

> > Holo is not that.

> Holo is pretty much dead if their main burst does not land (from a Power Reaper's perspective). He bursts, I dodge, I burst, he shrinks for 3 seconds, I wait 3 seconds, I kill him while he tries to heal up with his turret. Pretty much like a fight against a glass cannon should look like.

>

 

Nope. They have many tools (no pun intended xd) to fall back onto. Stealth up, rocket boots away, knock your ass back, immobilize, shrink (active) or shrink (passive). What do the specs I listed have? They can't reset, they just die.

 

Holo is leagues ahead in terms of survivability.

[Razor.6392]

> @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> It's almost like people are playing blindfolded. Holosmith has some of the most obvious tells of any of the PoF specs, and if you know what they are, are super easy to deal with. In the meantime, to everybody complaining about it's super-opness... go play it. Please. Please play it. Please play it and come back to tell me how good its sustain is.

>

> Because if it wasn't for scourge, scrapper would whoop holosmith's kitten pretty consistently.

 

The problem with holo is that every single skill in forge is worth a dodge. Every single one.

 

Blitz, leap, corona, shockwave, even the damn autoattack. They all hit for a lot of damage.

 

Also one last reminder, just because mirage, scourge and fb are power creeped to hell and back, doesn't mean holo is fine lol.

[zinkz.7045]

> @"Ferus.3165" said:

> > @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > Holosmith has... excessive defense.

> >

> > If you take the fairly typical holosmith build, it has no evades, no blocks, no aegis, no blinds, no protection, moderate condi removal that is limited in that it lacks a full clear skill, moderate mobility (nothing instant, nothing long range, nothing on z axis), is hardly a druid, tempest, etc when is comes to healing, so basically for defense has 2 invurns (one of which will actually kill the engi at times) that has one limited option to counterpressure (dodge roll) and can't do anything else to the point it is not uncommon that all elxir S does is delay the inevitable, a static reflect, stealth and good use of CC.

> >

> > So how on earth does that equate to "excessive defense", really this forum is a fine example of why players in skilled proper PvP games take the mickey out of this game and genre (those that have even heard of it).

> >

>

> 'cept that holo does have evades, blocks, protection and very good mobility...

 

Wrong, the typical meta holosmith build that has "excessive" damage & that people QQ about the dodge roll damage, is alchemy/holo/explosives taking elixir s/elixir U and elixir gun or elixir r, with rifle.

 

It has no evades (I mean evades on weapons/utility skills beyond dodge rolls), it has no blocks, no protection (typically protection injection is not taken) and the mobility is moderate, because none of the leaps are long range, none of them are instant like blink, shadowstep, etc (frankly they are are largely between slow and average as far as speed for movement skills go), none of them have evades on them so can get interrupted, and none of them can traverse the z-axis, and finally access to swiftness is 'intermittent' and they have no base movement speed bonus.

 

And yes depending on balance changes that may happen holosmith could become top of the food chain, but the idea that the typical meta build has "excessive" defense is frankly laughable.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lilyanna.9361]

> @"Ferus.3165" said:

> > @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said:

> > > Holosmith has... excessive defense.

> >

> > If you take the fairly typical holosmith build, it has no evades, no blocks, no aegis, no blinds, no protection, moderate condi removal that is limited in that it lacks a full clear skill, moderate mobility (nothing instant, nothing long range, nothing on z axis), is hardly a druid, tempest, etc when is comes to healing, so basically for defense has 2 invurns (one of which will actually kill the engi at times) that has one limited option to counterpressure (dodge roll) and can't do anything else to the point it is not uncommon that all elxir S does is delay the inevitable, a static reflect, stealth and good use of CC.

> >

> > So how on earth does that equate to "excessive defense", really this forum is a fine example of why players in skilled proper PvP games take the mickey out of this game and genre (those that have even heard of it).

> >

>

> 'cept that holo does have evades, blocks, protection and very good mobility combined with stealth and good cc skills ontop of very high power burst and sustained dps. Don't get me wrong. Mirage, Firebrand and Scourge are still superior, but when those get taken down with the next balance patch, Holosmith will be the top of the food chain no doubt.

 

No it would not, are you high?

Scrapper completely and utterly negates that damage of Holosmith. Chrono can 1v1 easily. Rev bursts it down. Thief can burst it down.

 

Like I can happily list you high DPS classes that can take down Holosmith easily. Just stop.

[Brandon.8294]

I feel like holos do not have large enough windows of opportunity for their enemies to exploit.

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > It's almost like people are playing blindfolded. Holosmith has some of the most obvious tells of any of the PoF specs, and if you know what they are, are super easy to deal with. In the meantime, to everybody complaining about it's super-opness... go play it. Please. Please play it. Please play it and come back to tell me how good its sustain is.

> >

> > Because if it wasn't for scourge, scrapper would whoop holosmith's kitten pretty consistently.

>

> The problem with holo is that every single skill in forge is worth a dodge. Every single one.

>

> Blitz, leap, corona, shockwave, even the kitten autoattack. They all hit for a lot of damage.

>

> Also one last reminder, just because mirage, scourge and fb are power creeped to hell and back, doesn't mean holo is fine lol.

 

You missed my point. If you roll back the power creep of the scourge and FB, there are actually builds that can survive the holo nuking and dish it right back (DH, scrapper, chrono). These builds cannot persist in the current meta due to scourge AoE corruption though. The current meta is primarily glass (except FB) because glass builds are the only reasonable options against scourge, given its ease of use and spammability for massive damage and corruption. Balance is a lot like an ecosystem -- overpowered builds muscle out other less powerful builds. Is holo powerful? Yes. Is it overpowered against the tankier HoT specs? I don't think so. DH kicks holo's ass pretty thoroughly, as does scrapper.

 

Also, to your response about the skills... have you not heard of kiting and cc? If you're 1v1'ing a holo, you can interrupt them as soon as they enter forge (because I guarantee they are going to pop corona), or you can simply move away and immob/chill/cripple (the reason why scourge is so damn effective). If you are in their face, and you are just as glassy, you will get your ass pounded into the ground.

 

The other thing everyone seems to gloss over is Holo is the only PoF spec that comes with its own built-in drawback -- overheating. If I get overzealous, I am liable to kill myself. This is the only class/spec in the game that can actually kill itself.

 

> @"Brandon.8294" said:

> I feel like holos do not have large enough windows of opportunity for their enemies to exploit.

 

1. If a holo is distracted with somebody else, you can focus them down pretty quickly. On my holo I try to stay away from the enemy's attention until I'm ready to strike. If I get outnumbered, I generally try to run unless an opponent is down or very close to downed. In this sense, holo is a lot like a D/P thief.

2. A holo is a lot like a harder hitting, but less mobile D/P thief. They are very easily countered by heavy pressure - heavy condi or spike damage. I often will focus an enemy holo over an enemy necro for this reason.

3. If you watch holos closely, you can interrupt corona burst (they always pop it as soon as they enter forge). This is the most critical skill in the whole chain -- if it gets interrupted, it royally screws with the rotation.

4. If you're being focused by a holo, kite and use your immobs/chill/cripple, or defenses/block/temp invulns. Most of them will either pop prime light beam (which you can dodge) or pop back out of holo mode, giving you a nice window to pressure them.

5. A holo that's low on health should be running away -- they will only turn around when their burst is ready again. If you are chasing a holo who's injured, wait for them to turn around and pop forge, then use any invuln skill or kiting skill you have.

[whoknocks.4935]

Engi is the only profession that appears in the PvP with only one build, which is Holosmith. In metabattle it is the only class not having even a good or great build, just the meta Marauder Holo.

 

It is a HIGH RISK high reward class. And actually requires a brain to play it properly if the enemy is good enough to dodge essential skills, which they have the most spectacular but also the most predictable animation in all game.

 

The strenght of the holo is the kiting and disengage ability and to use it properly you must be constantly moving around the map, you go to outnumber, burst and go away.

 

In many cases condis will rekt you hardcore, I find good spellbreakers be a problem too with all the immunity to damage they have, good thieves can burst you down easily if they didn't get surprises by your burst first.

 

The most important thing to notice it's the IT IS NOT a spam class, each utility must be used with brain, 1 second late of stealth? You are dead.

 

From what I see it is the only new elite specialization with an high risk high reward factor to it.

All abilities of scourge are pretty much spammable (good scourges don't spam it randomly I know, maybe they use a bit of brain, yeah I hate scourges xD), but still spamming can do the work done especially in low leagues, a player who tries holo for the first time of never played engi will die all the match without getting a single kill, using scourge they can spam and win (I repeat in low leagues and against not so good players), low risk high reward.

Spellbreaker too... it is a simple class, more than guardian, and in the hands of a noob you get your work done, in the hands of a pro you never almost die.

 

So I hope anet doesn't nerf the only pvp viable option for engi, in wvw is fun as hell too, all the other classes has multiple builds which works good or less, guardian has core radiant hammer, symbolic, meditrapper and of course firebrand, necro has scourge, power reaper, condi reaper; mesmer has chrono and of course another unfun class to play against condi mirage...

 

Engi has just Holo coz scrapper is not quite there... not good as damage, not good at bunker, not good at team support because other professions do it just better.

 

So please #longlifetoholosmith

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > It's almost like people are playing blindfolded. Holosmith has some of the most obvious tells of any of the PoF specs, and if you know what they are, are super easy to deal with. In the meantime, to everybody complaining about it's super-opness... go play it. Please. Please play it. Please play it and come back to tell me how good its sustain is.

> >

> > Because if it wasn't for scourge, scrapper would whoop holosmith's kitten pretty consistently.

>

> The problem with holo is that every single skill in forge is worth a dodge. Every single one.

>

> Blitz, leap, corona, shockwave, even the kitten autoattack. They all hit for a lot of damage.

>

> Also one last reminder, just because mirage, scourge and fb are power creeped to hell and back, doesn't mean holo is fine lol.

 

Holo requires a brain to be played even in low leagues, that is the difference. If it is the first time playing engi you wont even get a single kill. If it is the first time playing scourge spamming skills does the work for you. Low risk high reward.

 

Go check metabattle.

 

And let me remind you holo is the ONLY option engi has, not even a good or great build to use apart the meta holo.

 

And still in metabattle about holo: HIGH RISK HIGH REWARD build.

Brain must be used.

[jihm.2315]

u need crazy damage in a game of crazy damage

[rwolf.9571]

High risk? more like No risk. I have never killed a Holo in a 1 v 1 Situation, not even the ones who play like kitten. Can't do damage to them, can't see these so called telegraphed attacks. (everything just a flurry of blue/yellow). Can't even evade dodge unblockables. (Nothing like in the middle of evade frames when a holo 1 shots you with his elite).

 

Granted if a pug is smart and focus's him in a team battle he's dead meat. But ppl usually focus on somthing else, like ele or necro.

[whoknocks.4935]

> @"rwolf.9571" said:

> High risk? more like No risk. I have never killed a Holo in a 1 v 1 Situation, not even the ones who play like kitten. Can't do damage to them, can't see these so called telegraphed attacks. (everything just a flurry of blue/yellow). Can't even evade dodge unblockables. (Nothing like in the middle of evade frames when a holo 1 shots you with his elite).

>

> Granted if a pug is smart and focus's him in a team battle he's dead meat. But ppl usually focus on somthing else, like ele or necro.

 

Get glasses if cannot see the holo#5 skill or the elite one. You never killed them 1vs1 because you don't know how to dodge or maybe play classes easy counterable by holo.

And PvP is not deathmatch, so you are not forced to 1vs1 and win all the times, just avoid the 1vs1s you can't win.

 

"I have never killed a Holo in a 1 v 1 Situation, not even the ones who play like kitten."

You play more kitten than them, and you can't win 1vs1s against all professions man, otherwise you were a god.

 

"High risk? more like No risk." Yeah it's high risky because you are squishy and so vulnerable to condis.

It's for people like you that good and fun classes like holo will get nerfed and braindead spammy classes like scourge don't get touched.

[KrHome.1920]

I like Holo. It is one of the few balanced specs. Fighting it feels like fighting Warrior when it was balanced some years ago: hard hitting but telegraphed and a fair window of opportunity to fight back.

 

You always have a fair chance to win. Yes the damage can be crazy - like a teef. But the fight is much less frustrating since no Holo can endlessly reset the fight simply by pressing one or two buttons.

 

Before PoF when roaming I've always been happy to run into Power Shatter Chronos. One of these rare builds where skill matters. When you were defeated you could admit your opponent was the better player and everything was good. Now I feel the same with Holos.