GS shatter-burst a little too strong?

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> >The problem is bursting from stealth.

> That why many tips are : play mes.

> Stealth have a duration, like torch stealth, you know that the burn will come after 2.5 sec (4sec if PU). That's why it's nearly impossible to burst a good player with a mesmer. (And that's why you don't see top mes play shatter burst today.)

> Only the Mass invisibility skill can make it unpredictable.

> And about your thief comparison : thief always have a better stealth uptime during a fight against mesmer and it alaways counter shatter builds. They probably just not remember how to do it after playing easy running build with UC during HoT. ;)

 

Someone isn't reading my posts as to why the burst from stealth is a problem.

 

Nobody is enforcing the timing on when to burst. A mesmer, like a thief, can choose to burst either immediately upon entering stealth via blink and the MB combo or until the very tail end, to some extent even waiting until stealth ends if it baits enemy dodges/resources. The thief during SA's dominance waited in stealth in order to maximize the benefits it had while stealthed, most notably, initiative regeneration and its only condition clease from SE. Unless hinging on PU (why?) a mesmer has just as many options now as the thief does. Good thieves and mesmers will intentionally be very inconsistent on their timings on bursting from stealth to either catch people at the end of a dodge or to combo before the dodge begins.

 

You don't see shatter burst being played outside of WvW because the sPvP format demands everything that shatter burst mesmer as a whole doesn't do: Either high mobility for decaps or sustaining on-point without stealth to deny captures. Stealth shatter does neither role optimally and is thus a hindrance. It's also more mechanically-demanding than condi and condi generally performs better in this meta/previous metas.

 

Also, the professional players disagree with you that HoT with chronomancer and especially now PoF with the mirage made the thief/mes matchup a skill matchup more than just thief countering mesmer like it used to. DrD may have made the thief easier, but the matchup largely closened up at the higher echelons of play. Further, most of this matchup is based on D/P thief which historically was the only viable build thief had; as the dominant weapons have changed (in particular, the shift to S/D recently or staff with HoT), mesmer's matchup into thief has also changed.

 

 

[apharma.3741]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> > @"viquing.8254" said:

> > >The problem is bursting from stealth.

> > That why many tips are : play mes.

> > Stealth have a duration, like torch stealth, you know that the burn will come after 2.5 sec (4sec if PU). That's why it's nearly impossible to burst a good player with a mesmer. (And that's why you don't see top mes play shatter burst today.)

> > Only the Mass invisibility skill can make it unpredictable.

> > And about your thief comparison : thief always have a better stealth uptime during a fight against mesmer and it alaways counter shatter builds. They probably just not remember how to do it after playing easy running build with UC during HoT. ;)

>

> Someone isn't reading my posts as to why the burst from stealth is a problem.

>

> Nobody is enforcing the timing on when to burst. A mesmer, like a thief, can choose to burst either immediately upon entering stealth via blink and the MB combo or until the very tail end, to some extent even waiting until stealth ends if it baits enemy dodges/resources. The thief during SA's dominance waited in stealth in order to maximize the benefits it had while stealthed, most notably, initiative regeneration and its only condition clease from SE. Unless hinging on PU (why?) a mesmer has just as many options now as the thief does. Good thieves and mesmers will intentionally be very inconsistent on their timings on bursting from stealth to either catch people at the end of a dodge or to combo before the dodge begins.

>

> You don't see shatter burst being played outside of WvW because the sPvP format demands everything that shatter burst mesmer as a whole doesn't do: Either high mobility for decaps or sustaining on-point without stealth to deny captures. Stealth shatter does neither role optimally and is thus a hindrance. It's also more mechanically-demanding than condi and condi generally performs better in this meta/previous metas.

>

> Also, the professional players disagree with you that HoT with chronomancer and especially now PoF with the mirage made the thief/mes matchup a skill matchup more than just thief countering mesmer like it used to. DrD may have made the thief easier, but the matchup largely closened up at the higher echelons of play. Further, most of this matchup is based on D/P thief which historically was the only viable build thief had; as the dominant weapons have changed (in particular, the shift to S/D recently or staff with HoT), mesmer's matchup into thief has also changed.

>

>

 

The biggest difference between a thief camping stealth and mesmer is that mesmer has very finite stealth which you know. I understand your point of sitting in stealth and delaying your burst till the enemy has wasted CDs but there's a major difference here and problem.

 

The jig is already up if they saw you so can rotate defences till the mesmer runs out of stealth, even only protection up will increase the amount of damage needed by 33% to one shot so you won't be in a huge amount of danger so long as you can hit an invuln or a block quickly which your finger should be on. This isn't the case when fighting a thief or DE, their stealth is far longer than you can rotate defences, the best option is to either go where they can't easily get you or take the hit but be ready on the immune and counter. Against DE running away is usually the best tactic unless you can find a wall to hide behind.

 

The other major issue with a mesmer doing this is it burns their defences to a much bigger extent than thief, sure you burn ini and some cool downs to camp stealth and it increases a lot when you get to really silly 20s+ but they can always outrun or back off. One of the reasons I was so excited by mirage thrust was because it gave that high mobility to escape. Once the mesmer comes out of stealth if he doesn't 1 shot he either runs or dies, no in between a lot of the time assuming you're fighting someone who can play OK.

 

Anyway at the end of the day the game is very dependant on passives and immunities now because the damage is so high condi and power can all result in you goin 100-0 in a few seconds regardless. There needs to be a real reduction in power for everyone and reduction in passives, slowing the game down a bit where 1 mistake doesn't mean you lose straight away will do wonders for the game, that doesn't mean I want to go to bunker wars though.

[viquing.8254]

>A mesmer, like a thief, can choose to burst either immediately upon entering stealth via blink and the MB combo or until the very tail end, to some extent even waiting until stealth ends if it baits enemy dodges/resources.

When stealth duration is 2.5 sec and ennemy block/tempo 2 sec or even 1 sec, the window is low.

 

Moreover if you want a proper burst, you have to come to melee at the last moment, depending on the position you are before stealth it reduce dramastically the option to burst.

So yes it's very predictable, even with stealth.

 

>You don't see shatter burst being played outside of WvW because the sPvP format demands everything that shatter burst mesmer as a whole doesn't do: Either high mobility for decaps or sustaining on-point without stealth to deny captures. Stealth shatter does neither role optimally and is thus a hindrance. It's also more mechanically-demanding than condi and condi generally performs better in this meta/previous metas.

And because it can't land burst. Because of aoe fiesta and random cc /tempo fiesta.

 

>Also, the professional players disagree with you that HoT with chronomancer and especially now PoF with the mirage made the thief/mes matchup a skill matchup more than just thief countering mesmer like it used to. DrD may have made the thief easier, but the matchup largely closened up at the higher echelons of play. Further, most of this matchup is based on D/P thief which historically was the only viable build thief had; as the dominant weapons have changed (in particular, the shift to S/D recently or staff with HoT), mesmer's matchup into thief has also changed.

Who are the professional players ?

 

[Hanth.2978]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> @"Hanth.2978"

>

> You may like it, and it may be your reason to play. That is great, and good for you.

>

> But your criteria for balance is bad and the rest of the game shouldn’t have to cater to it.

>

> You are arguing something is op in an unsupported format, in an area that was designed for large scale battles and logistics.

> Which by the way, the “actually supported” and “intended content” in that area where any semblance of balance may be a factor,

> power mirage is not as impactful as some other builds.

>

> To top it off, the whole “Mistake or I win” thing has existed on Thief since like 2012. We learned how to deal with it then, and they have better stealth, and are not reliant on 30-40 second cooldowns to close the gap and hide their burst.

>

> It doesn’t matter if telling people not to cry doesn’t help, when telling them to get better does equally as much, and you people continue to complain about something ultimately irrelevant to what justifies balance.

>

> By your same criteria a tanky Druid build is OP because you can make a build that’ll never die 2-3v1, win fights pretty much by out sustaining, and can stop anything that isn’t a thief or a well placed portal from escaping.

> Unless it’s strictly the “no tell” thing, which has more than enough counterplay if you are not bad.

 

A couple things, first I'm not arguing for or against mesmer in wvw, I'm simply stating the obvious that it's OP in it's current state. Where there is smoke there is fire and that's why we have a thread like this to begin with.

 

You are right power mirage is not as impactful as some other builds but again it depends how we look through the prism. Looking at the mirage as a wvw roam class, you would be very hard pressed to name any other class that can do it as effectively as a mesmer does being both offensive and defensive. You bring up druid and that makes a great point but I'm sorry druids don't kill anyone in a 1v2 1v3 or at least they shouldn't. Mesmer on the other hand as most of the community would surely agree can win that fight.

 

Yes the "Mistake or I win" thing has existed on thief since like 2012. We did learn how to deal with it then and yes they have better stealth and are mostly not reliant on 30-40 second cd's to close gap and hide their burst. Key word is "gap" because this does not exist for mesmer gs burst. This is the most important reason why I roam as a mesmer and not a thief and that's not to take anything away from thief, I just prefere to rely less on burst and a little more on sustained pressure even if burst fails.

 

Sure telling people to get better does help but even the best players at the top of their game cannot beat a mesmer of equal skill if they are rolling a rev, engi etc. Most classes no matter how well played just won't win that fight. All in all it is what is, every game that I have ever played host some classes inherently better at a 1v1 then others, for us it's mesmer/thief.

 

 

[apharma.3741]

> @"Hanth.2978" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"Hanth.2978"

> >

> > You may like it, and it may be your reason to play. That is great, and good for you.

> >

> > But your criteria for balance is bad and the rest of the game shouldn’t have to cater to it.

> >

> > You are arguing something is op in an unsupported format, in an area that was designed for large scale battles and logistics.

> > Which by the way, the “actually supported” and “intended content” in that area where any semblance of balance may be a factor,

> > power mirage is not as impactful as some other builds.

> >

> > To top it off, the whole “Mistake or I win” thing has existed on Thief since like 2012. We learned how to deal with it then, and they have better stealth, and are not reliant on 30-40 second cooldowns to close the gap and hide their burst.

> >

> > It doesn’t matter if telling people not to cry doesn’t help, when telling them to get better does equally as much, and you people continue to complain about something ultimately irrelevant to what justifies balance.

> >

> > By your same criteria a tanky Druid build is OP because you can make a build that’ll never die 2-3v1, win fights pretty much by out sustaining, and can stop anything that isn’t a thief or a well placed portal from escaping.

> > Unless it’s strictly the “no tell” thing, which has more than enough counterplay if you are not bad.

>

> A couple things, first I'm not arguing for or against mesmer in wvw, I'm simply stating the obvious that it's OP in it's current state. Where there is smoke there is fire and that's why we have a thread like this to begin with.

>

> You are right power mirage is not as impactful as some other builds but again it depends how we look through the prism. *Looking at the mirage as a wvw roam class, you would be very hard pressed to name any other class that can do it as effectively as a mesmer does being both offensive and defensive. You bring up druid and that makes a great point but I'm sorry druids don't kill anyone in a 1v2 1v3 or at least they shouldn't. Mesmer on the other hand as most of the community would surely agree can win that fight.*

>

> Yes the "Mistake or I win" thing has existed on thief since like 2012. We did learn how to deal with it then and yes they have better stealth and are mostly not reliant on 30-40 second cd's to close gap and hide their burst. Key word is "gap" because this does not exist for mesmer gs burst. This is the most important reason why I roam as a mesmer and not a thief and that's not to take anything away from thief, I just prefere to rely less on burst and a little more on sustained pressure even if burst fails.

>

> Sure telling people to get better does help but even the best players at the top of their game cannot beat a mesmer of equal skill if they are rolling a rev, engi etc. Most classes no matter how well played just won't win that fight. All in all it is what is, every game that I have ever played host some classes inherently better at a 1v1 then others, for us it's mesmer/thief.

>

>

 

You started talking about power mes, while it's been weeks since I played there's been no balance patch, pretty sure power mes can be beaten especially by other power roamers as long as they aren't one shot. Sure the mesmer can usually back off and leave a bad fight except against thief and possibly druid but if you have to run you lost the fight. Just some examples of fights that power mirage would be weary of are DH, Holo and SB to name 3 more common builds.

 

Condi mirage is all kinds of broken with practise but that's not what the thread is about.

[Alveen.7239]

I have to agree with the OP. I used to main power Chrono and you hardly ever saw people complain about that because losing to it never really felt like you had been **out sustained**. The problem isn't the fact it can 1 hit burst (mes could already do that), its how much sustain it has while still being able to 1 hit.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I think the complaints are aimed at wvw, could be wong doe

[rank eleven monk.9502]

I see this discussion is still alive.

 

Fun fact: In spvp top250 power mesmer is literally extinct (there are around 3-4 of them). Now compare that literally to any other spec out there..

 

I think this in itself disqualifies any conversation about how strong power mesmer is.

 

You can go full one shot glass cannon, and will be wiped off in any game above gold. Or, you can go with Marauders + some proper setup, and you have a chance of hitting the top250 if you are REALLY good.

 

And again, if people are talking about WvW here, sadly it's irrelevant in a balance perspective. Basically you can oneshot anyone with anything in WvW if the circumstances are given.

[Arcaedus.7290]

I understand OP's frustration since that was me too at some point. However if you take time to make and play a mesmer (not much time at all), and learn how the burst really works, you'll find that there is plenty of counterplay.

 

See the mesmer stealth? Move away from the location of stealth, or put your blocks/invulns up asap.

Alternatively, you can avoid a lot of the damage on reflex most of the time.

 

Mesmer does all of the above but adds in mantra of distraction? Your response to the burst has to be specific to your build/class. Some examples would be DD using bandit's defence + dodge, guard applying aegis/stab + dodge, necro popping their stab skill + following up with aoe counter pressure, or warrior doing literally nothing and letting their safety net trait save them.

 

Mesmer is trying to pull off the combo out of stealth? It has very obvious tells and is easily avoidable.

 

You didn't see the mesmer stealth and got bursted from nearly full health? More likely than not, the mesmer just +1ed you and this is no different a balance issue than thief being able to down you equally quickly as a +1.

[bravan.3876]

> @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> I see this discussion is still alive.

>

> Fun fact: In spvp top250 power mesmer is literally extinct (there are around 3-4 of them). Now compare that literally to any other spec out there..

>

> I think this in itself disqualifies any conversation about how strong power mesmer is.

>

> You can go full one shot glass cannon, and will be wiped off in any game above gold. Or, you can go with Marauders + some proper setup, and you have a chance of hitting the top250 if you are REALLY good.

>

> And again, if people are talking about WvW here, sadly it's irrelevant in a balance perspective. Basically you can oneshot anyone with anything in WvW if the circumstances are given.

 

There are power mesmer in Top 250? Who might that be? I don't know a single one. It's simple: If you have problems to kill a power mesmer you do something wrong or he is just remarkable better than you.

[rank eleven monk.9502]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"rank eleven monk.9502" said:

> > I see this discussion is still alive.

> >

> > Fun fact: In spvp top250 power mesmer is literally extinct (there are around 3-4 of them). Now compare that literally to any other spec out there..

> >

> > I think this in itself disqualifies any conversation about how strong power mesmer is.

> >

> > You can go full one shot glass cannon, and will be wiped off in any game above gold. Or, you can go with Marauders + some proper setup, and you have a chance of hitting the top250 if you are REALLY good.

> >

> > And again, if people are talking about WvW here, sadly it's irrelevant in a balance perspective. Basically you can oneshot anyone with anything in WvW if the circumstances are given.

>

> There are power mesmer in Top 250? Who might that be? I don't know a single one. It's simple: If you have problems to kill a power mesmer you do something wrong or he is just remarkable better than you.

I know only about last season, but I have a guess that Jazz X Man finished top 250 (he was t3 plat IIRC), and also me. There was another guy who I regularly met but I'm not sure about his name either.

[Curunen.8729]

This might be unpopular but I would like to see what happens if stealth was reworked to break on initial cast of ANY skill.

 

So not when you deal damage, but as soon as you initiate the cast of any skill meaning you have to not use any skill to stay in stealth. So it would break before you threw mirror blade etc.

 

Reveal duration could be reduced and cast times for relevant burst combo initiating skills could be adjusted to compensate, but I believe this will alleviate the issues surrounding huge burst with no tell, not only from Mesmer but from a number of classes including thief, ranger, engi...

[Crinn.7864]

> @"zomgbuffalo.5276" said:

> It's not that strong tbh. It's ok damage to one-shot kill some squishy target if done correctly. If you run glasscanon builds

 

My Paladin's amulet Reaper has been 100-0'ed by a power Mesmer stealth alpha on numerous occasions. If a pally reaper is getting 100-0'ed then literally any build that doesn't have a auto-invuln will be 100-0'ed by Mesmer stealth alpha.

 

[zomgbuffalo.5276]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"zomgbuffalo.5276" said:

> > It's not that strong tbh. It's ok damage to one-shot kill some squishy target if done correctly. If you run glasscanon builds

>

> My Paladin's amulet Reaper has been 100-0'ed by a power Mesmer stealth alpha on numerous occasions. If a pally reaper is getting 100-0'ed then literally any build that doesn't have a auto-invuln will be 100-0'ed by Mesmer stealth alpha.

>

 

Cool.

[Chorazin.4107]

I think the survivability is a little out of whack, by all means have the burst, i think that is fine and a part of the class. But give up survivability for it, between stealth, elusive mind, blurred frenzy, jaunt, distortion, mirage cloak it's way too much sustain for a massive burst class.

 

But mirage isnt the only class that falls into this category.

[Solori.6025]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"Pelto.9364" said:

> > I had this incident in wvw: I had full zerk mesmer with GS, maybe not best traited for shatters. Enemy was power GS. Enemy mesmer's Mind Wrack gave 7+ k damage to my mesmer. What is strange is that my mesmer gave to this enemy mesmer only 2 k Mind Wrack. Enemy mesmer's Mind Wrack was 3.5 times bigger than my, and one burst had 2 x 7+ k totalling to 14+ k.

> >

> > People say if enemy does huge damage, the enemy is glass and goes down fast, but I could not do any meaningful damage with my 2 k Mind Wracks.

> >

> Keep in mind that you can achieve like 2000 toughness (about 50% damage reduction) for power and critical damage at maybe 80% zerker strength, at the cost of precision (which can be weighed up somewhat by something like intelligence sigils). Or you can go the boon duration route for perma protection and 25 might stacks (not so common with mesmers, but for examples holos can build about as nasty as a zerker spellbreaker with that). There is a reason why bruiser specs are strong in WvW. You may not have the real oomph of a zerker and isnt as strong against other bruisers/bunkers, but when it comes to hitting enemy zerkers without any toughness or vitality its like them still getting hit by a truck while fighting what feels like a bunker.

 

or the mes was traited for protection after mirage cloak.. .. ..

 

> @"Curunen.8729" said:

> This might be unpopular but I would like to see what happens if stealth was reworked to break on initial cast of ANY skill.

>

> So not when you deal damage, but as soon as you initiate the cast of any skill meaning you have to not use any skill to stay in stealth. So it would break before you threw mirror blade etc.

>

> Reveal duration could be reduced and cast times for relevant burst combo initiating skills could be adjusted to compensate, but I believe this will alleviate the issues surrounding huge burst with no tell, not only from Mesmer but from a number of classes including thief, ranger, engi...

 

You could remove stealth from the game and I bet people would still find something to cry about for mesmer.

[Curunen.8729]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > This might be unpopular but I would like to see what happens if stealth was reworked to break on initial cast of ANY skill.

> >

> > So not when you deal damage, but as soon as you initiate the cast of any skill meaning you have to not use any skill to stay in stealth. So it would break before you threw mirror blade etc.

> >

> > Reveal duration could be reduced and cast times for relevant burst combo initiating skills could be adjusted to compensate, but I believe this will alleviate the issues surrounding huge burst with no tell, not only from Mesmer but from a number of classes including thief, ranger, engi...

>

> You could remove stealth from the game and I bet people would still find something to cry about for mesmer.

 

True words.

 

They'd probably cry about Detarget next (oh wait, they already do!) xD

 

Funnily enough I find since mirage I only use untraited torch stealth while roaming in wvw, and even that isn't really necessary. Mobility and detarget are pretty nice substitutes so I'm not too fussed it stealth gets nerfed/reworked in the future.