Mirage Specialization Updates for the Path of Fire Launch

[atlashugged.7642]

> @Kitta.3657 said:

> - **Infinite Horizon should be baseline. No if or but.** It is what makes Mirage what it is, accompanied to the change to our dodge roll as well of course. I would suggest replacing the trait with one that would let our phantasms use ambushes and create phantasms specific ambushes. Currently, you're punished for having phantasms when your phantasms are still mesmer's bulk damage in PvE.

>

I disagree with this, if and but only because of how powerful that would make mirage in PvP, WvW, and probably PvE. It's actually balanced that you have to choose between getting multiple ambushes per dodge versus high condi damage or breaking stuns. Doing what you suggest would have to come with a decrease in the power and utility of ambush skills, which is the exact opposite of what should happen.

 

Some alternatives:

Make clones gaining mirage cloak on dodge baseline, but restrict them from using ambushes without the trait.

Add some other clone related trait to the baseline instead. For instance, clone death as a result of enemies produces a mirror, with an ICD to prevent spam.

 

> - Mirrors are simply an useless mechanic in their current form. Need rework.

 

No, they aren't. The problem is that mirage mirror production is too low, not that they're useless.

 

> - Utilities do not compete with baseline utilities whatsoever in my opinion. None of them bring me something that would make me slot them over besides from Jaunt. This is an issue with mesmer overall, having in general amazing utilities that make it hard to replace for other choices. I can't see myself choosing these over my core mesmer utilities for damage in PvE nor even in PvP/WvW since they don't really bring out utility that I'd require. I am really not a fan of them.

 

Mirage utilities are all about mobility. That's not necessarily any good in PvE, but it's amazing in PvP. Adding utility in PvE could be accomplished by making the ambushes better, since almost all the mirage skills let you ambush or generate a clone to ambush with.

 

> - Half of the ambushes are weak. If Anet wants to have ambush skills that aren't about damage (which I agree with), they need to be more in line with Mirage Thrust with a better utility out of them. I don't know how I feel about Chaos Vortex... still is so slow. Split Surge and Imaginary Axes are terrible, they don't bring anything worth using your ambush for and they're not even "free damage after a dodge" at this point. They need reworks or substantial number tuning. At the very least, these are my impressions on them thus far and I have not read through the whole thread but if someone has found something about the 3 lacking ambushes I have not realized yet hit me up because I'd love to know.

 

I would like to see the other ambushes brought in line utility wise with mirage thrust as well. There's a lot that anet could do that wouldn't be too crazy, but would offer unique gameplay opportunities. Chaos Vortex could be a combo field (similar to how tides of time is a combo field). Ambush Skills could offer boons or combo finishers that the mesmer doesn't otherwise get, or apply useful conditions that mesmer doesn't otherwise get. This is where most of the balance efforts should end up, making the ambush skills feel as impactful as Mirage Thrust.

[tnhalbertsma.7682]

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Kitta.3657 said:

> > - **Infinite Horizon should be baseline. No if or but.** It is what makes Mirage what it is, accompanied to the change to our dodge roll as well of course. I would suggest replacing the trait with one that would let our phantasms use ambushes and create phantasms specific ambushes. Currently, you're punished for having phantasms when your phantasms are still mesmer's bulk damage in PvE.

> >

> I disagree with this, if and but only because of how powerful that would make mirage in PvP, WvW, and probably PvE. It's actually balanced that you have to choose between getting multiple ambushes per dodge versus high condi damage or breaking stuns. Doing what you suggest would have to come with a decrease in the power and utility of ambush skills, which is the exact opposite of what should happen.

>

> Some alternatives:

> Make clones gaining mirage cloak on dodge baseline, but restrict them from using ambushes without the trait.

> Add some other clone related trait to the baseline instead. For instance, clone death as a result of enemies produces a mirror, with an ICD to prevent spam.

>

> > - Mirrors are simply an useless mechanic in their current form. Need rework.

>

> No, they aren't. The problem is that mirage mirror production is too low, not that they're useless.

>

> > - Utilities do not compete with baseline utilities whatsoever in my opinion. None of them bring me something that would make me slot them over besides from Jaunt. This is an issue with mesmer overall, having in general amazing utilities that make it hard to replace for other choices. I can't see myself choosing these over my core mesmer utilities for damage in PvE nor even in PvP/WvW since they don't really bring out utility that I'd require. I am really not a fan of them.

>

> Mirage utilities are all about mobility. That's not necessarily any good in PvE, but it's amazing in PvP. Adding utility in PvE could be accomplished by making the ambushes better, since almost all the mirage skills let you ambush or generate a clone to ambush with.

>

> > - Half of the ambushes are weak. If Anet wants to have ambush skills that aren't about damage (which I agree with), they need to be more in line with Mirage Thrust with a better utility out of them. I don't know how I feel about Chaos Vortex... still is so slow. Split Surge and Imaginary Axes are terrible, they don't bring anything worth using your ambush for and they're not even "free damage after a dodge" at this point. They need reworks or substantial number tuning. At the very least, these are my impressions on them thus far and I have not read through the whole thread but if someone has found something about the 3 lacking ambushes I have not realized yet hit me up because I'd love to know.

>

> I would like to see the other ambushes brought in line utility wise with mirage thrust as well. There's a lot that anet could do that wouldn't be too crazy, but would offer unique gameplay opportunities. Chaos Vortex could be a combo field (similar to how tides of time is a combo field). Ambush Skills could offer boons or combo finishers that the mesmer doesn't otherwise get, or apply useful conditions that mesmer doesn't otherwise get. This is where most of the balance efforts should end up, making the ambush skills feel as impactful as Mirage Thrust.

 

Good points. Yeah, I've been thinking Mirage Thrust is lots better than I thought previously. Especially been noticing it if you do it a few times in a row with 3 Illusions, the damage does add up (even though it's mostly used for utility).

 

Still think it could do with a minor damage boost, it's barely an auto attack now which just feels a bit "meh".

[Gulesave.5073]

I was "meh" on mirrors at first, but am warming up to them. Especially when I remember that they apply weakness. That said, I still think they need a little improvement, either baseline or on a trait somewhere. Here's some quick & rough ideas, of varying potency:

 

* Mirrors generate clones.

* Mirrors inflict bleeding when they shatter. (Or: When you apply weakness to a foe, also apply bleeding.)

* Running into a mirror to shatter it counts as using a shatter skill, for activating other traits.

* Shatter skills can additionally proc on the locations of your mirage mirrors, (in addition to illusions and yourself).

* Gain swiftness while you have a mirage mirror active (to help you reach it).

[Carighan.6758]

> @Daharahj.1325 said:

> Jaunt is meant to be used offensively, 400 range was fine and 450 still is. Do you expect them to give us 3 charges of Blink on a 20 second cooldown?

 

It's actually **one** charge on a 20s CD. So all 3 charges take 60 seconds to regenerate.

But yes, for an elite I'd expect a blink every 20 seconds, considering my normal blink doesn't have a much longer CD either. I mean **is** an elite skill, this Flaunt. And if Mourned is to stay at 20s CD, then I wnat 650-900 range on it. Alternative, Burned could be a stunbreak (multi-charge stunbreak!). Or they keep Haunt the way it is, and make it a normal utility, and make a much stronger Ambush enabled our elite, like "use ambush skill freely without CD for 20 seconds but you cannot use other weapon skills" or something.

[NeroBoron.7285]

Distorted Desert is way better :) Self-Deception is just awesome now mirage can keep up to the illusion generation of a chronomancer :)

Heal ist way more usable this way

At all good changes, but I have to say: Jaunt range increase by 50? LOL

 

And still some ambush skills are kinda weak. But god damn i love the sword for leaping :) At all I really like the mirage good work :+1:

[FaboBabo.3581]

After a long pve run and some wvw time here' s my Final Expression.

 

Axe 2 has an undefined precast time. -> u push 2 , character does nothing ( bugged ? )

Axe 3 can teleport u Backwards and then do nothing.

-> sometimes when im arround max Range from target using Axe will teleport me more AWAY from the target and then jump to my starting Position - 10 seconds ; do nothing.

Regen trait could loose the anti condi duration and get some Healing Bonus - 20% Healing from all sources.

false oasis feels nice to use but could need a lower cooldown, longer pulsing and leds Healing per pulse. - Personal thing.

 

Distorted desert is really strong when usef with Domination , but only with Domination. " shatter a Phantasm produces a mirror"

 

Mirage Mantle ; 1,5 sec prot is a joke , rework into heal/barrier on Cloak.

 

Stubbreak cleanse trait . make it riskier and more regarding. Gaining Cloak breaks stun and gives resi + Prot ( 3 sek ) - insanely strong vs condi builds , but then again weak vs corruption builds

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I just got through my first daily fractal run with a condi mirage, and holy crap was that hard.

 

You know, when I play a dragon hunter, I can do a lot of damage while also giving a lot of support. I give aegis, I pull enemies, I block projectiles, I give protection and fury, I can pull and stun and knock enemies down, and if needed I give stability. I can do all of that at the same time, sacrificing very little damage to do so. By comparison, what good is a class that sacrifices all of it's support to do less damage than a class that sacrifices none of it?

 

This is the quandary that the mirage is in. A selfish DPS spec that has poor DPS. In select circumstances the class can be serviceable, but in most cases it isn't. The class doesn't have any big mover skills. There isn't a way to do a lot of damage fast. You have to build up a series of small, consecutive skills that eventually culminates into doing high damage, and these work against a single target. Condi builds generally have a slow burn, but the Mirage has a slow burn before starting its slow burn. Against a group of enemies you're reduced to spamming axe 2 and then cry of frustration, only to discover they're all still alive and you have to sit and wait for the enemies to die. The ambush skills don't provide this burst, either. The only thing the build can do is spam weakness.

 

A glorious lack of innate team support aside, the unique abilities that the mirage gives aren't that good. First is the ability to re-target with phantasms. This has a very fundamental flaw to it: You want to re-target your phantasms after your current enemy dies, but when he does the phantasms vanish. It's a skill that is only good when you can't use it. Because of this, the only time that retargeting with illusions is useful is when you're fighting a boss and it goes into phase while spawning other enemies. Everywhere else it is useless.

 

Second, mirage cloak. I'm not sure why they didn't simply make the mirage do damage on evade like the Daredevil, instead making it complicated with weapon ambush skills. The lack of movement on evade is jarring and has gotten me killed on a few occasions. The ambush skills range from worse than auto attacking to slightly better than auto attacking, making them largely a waste of time and effort. The only reason why we spam mirage cloak in PVE is to abuse Dune Cloak. One of our minor traits is dedicated just to fixing an inherent problem with stationary dodges. Generally that is a bad sign.

 

Third is the dreaded mirrors. Strangely I have used the mirrors to an effect in certain fights, since they act as an out-of-the-box way of giving me extra dodges. They are cumbersome though, and more often than not they're a trivial novelty more than anything useful. For PVE use basically I just stand in place and use skills that spam mirrors in place. With that said, it is annoying that half the utilities are devoted to mirror spam. The utilities provide an extremely basic function, but have a mirror tacked on. I know deception skills aren't meant to be too complicated, but when the skills are literally "Heal, make mirror" or "dodge, make mirror" or "minor damage, make mirror", you have to realize that mirrors aren't all that.

 

The traits are the worst. Quite frankly, the only trait that ever did anything was Dune Cloak. Any other trait that isn't in the grandmaster tier accomplishes very little. If I were to forget to put the traits in, I wouldn't notice it for days. Just look at them:

 

**Self Deception**: Can't use it because I don't want to overwrite phantasms. Does nothing else to buff deceptions.

**Renewing Oasis**: Extremely minor damage reduction on conditions applied within a particular window.

**Riddle of Sand**: Minor damage buff at the start of the fight. No practical way to take advantage of shatter refreshing, since you don't want to break your phantasms.

**Desert Distortion**: Distortion is on a 50 second cooldown. You can use this maybe once for fight, and all it does is give you a mirror.

**Mirage Mantle**: 1.5 seconds of protection after dodge is almost meaningless. In PVE the only time you can take advantage of this is if you are a poor dodger.

**Mirrored Axes**: Can't use axe skills because you don't want to break phantasms. Basically stuck auto attacking unless you need to evade with axe 3. At least this trait helps with ambush spam. I shutter to think how useless axe ambush would be of it weren't 50% stronger due to this trait.

**Infinite Horizon**: This is an elaborate and flashy way of saying "Do 10% more damage on ambush per active clone".

 

The other two are good. Overall this spec doesn't "provide" anything. It just makes playing the mesmer weird and difficult. The rotations are convoluted, whether or not you'll have dodges and skills available when you need them is random, and if you sacrifice your DPS utilities for support skills, the core weapon and functionality of the mirage contributes very little.

[trooper.2650]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> I just got through my first daily fractal run with a condi mirage, and holy crap was that hard.

>

> You know, when I play a dragon hunter, I can do a lot of damage while also giving a lot of support. I give aegis, I pull enemies, I block projectiles, I give protection and fury, I can pull and stun and knock enemies down, and if needed I give stability. I can do all of that at the same time, sacrificing very little damage to do so. By comparison, what good is a class that sacrifices all of it's support to do less damage than a class that sacrifices none of it?

 

Welcome. Really... You are soooo welcome to the mesmer profession, that I have no other words to say it more clearly than you did.

 

This, as I always mained a mesmer, has always been my feeling when playing another profession, especially DH. Up untill chrono arrived, which addressed the supporting aspect of mesmers but lacked of a credible dps.

 

Somehow, I still prefer Mesmer though. It may be a masochistic way of playing games, I dunno know, but it is more rewarding than just smashing some keys here and there and have everything done because it is "builded-in" in the profession itself.

 

As for Mirage, I am enjoying it pvp wise. I have not tried it in pve yet, but I feel safe to say it ain't changing anything in how mesmer is perceived by community, because it is now (more than ever) a selfish specialization.

 

Edit: just to say that your trait list break-down shows very well the poor state of most of new tools we have been given

[Agent Noun.7350]

Here's a suggestion: what if ambushes are an F5 skill instead of replacing our autoattack? Mirage doesn't have an F5 shatter like Chronomancer does, so there's no conflict there. That way, if you dodge, you don't necessarily interrupt your autoattack chain, and instead have a short window to hit F5 (or whatever your keybind is) to execute the ambush attack if it'd be helpful.

 

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> Mirage utilities are all about mobility. That's not necessarily any good in PvE, but it's amazing in PvP. Adding utility in PvE could be accomplished by making the ambushes better, since almost all the mirage skills let you ambush or generate a clone to ambush with.

 

Stronger ambushes should be a priority, I think. In PvE, I don't really feel the need to use ambushes--they're a bit better than the autoattacks they replace, but not enough that they're worth using endurance for, and sometimes not enough that they're worth interrupting an autoattack chain for. Stronger ambushes, I think, would go a long way towards making Mirage a more desirable PvE DPS spec, maybe even for power Mesmer.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

What I would like to see for this spec is for clones to do more damage. The biggest thing holding the mirage back in PVE is the dependence on phantasms for damage. If ambushes and clone ambushes were good, then Infinite Horizons would be a good trait. This would unlock the axe skills, it would make mirrors better, and then you could shatter regularly because clones reproduce themselves.

[morrage.4037]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> Here's a suggestion: what if ambushes are an F5 skill instead of replacing our autoattack? Mirage doesn't have an F5 shatter like Chronomancer does, so there's no conflict there. That way, if you dodge, you don't necessarily interrupt your autoattack chain, and instead have a short window to hit F5 (or whatever your keybind is) to execute the ambush attack if it'd be helpful.

 

this would make it feel more controllable to me...

[Esplen.3940]

But then they'd need to have a larger ambush window, and it'd be weird having dodges and mirrors give us 1 use of an auto attack (so it'd be nice to have charges) and then if it has charges, it'd need to have a longer cooldown to prevent spamming, but if it has a longer cooldown it would need to hit harder.

 

The rabbit hole goes deep.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> What I would like to see for this spec is for clones to do more damage. **The biggest thing holding the mirage back in PVE is the dependence on phantasms for damage.** If ambushes and clone ambushes were good, then Infinite Horizons would be a good trait. This would unlock the axe skills, it would make mirrors better, and then you could shatter regularly because clones reproduce themselves.

 

The bolded part is a huge deal for me, and something I'd really love to see addressed one day. It's not just true for Mirage--it's true for Mesmer as a profession. I love Mesmer and I'm having a great time with Mirage, but I think it'd be so much more effective, dynamic, and active if phantasms weren't the most important part of our DPS.

[trooper.2650]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > What I would like to see for this spec is for clones to do more damage. **The biggest thing holding the mirage back in PVE is the dependence on phantasms for damage.** If ambushes and clone ambushes were good, then Infinite Horizons would be a good trait. This would unlock the axe skills, it would make mirrors better, and then you could shatter regularly because clones reproduce themselves.

>

> The bolded part is a huge deal for me, and something I'd really love to see addressed one day. It's not just true for Mirage--it's true for Mesmer as a profession. I love Mesmer and I'm having a great time with Mirage, but I think it'd be so much more effective, dynamic, and active if phantasms weren't the most important part of our DPS.

 

Hot Boy came up with a superb idea. IH reworked so that one, and only one clone (alas, not phantasms) can mirror/duplicate all the actions and damage the player does, 100%. It would be controlled by AI and retain clone's health pool, so it stays very fragile, but powerful.

This way you can get 2 phantasms out very quickly, and maintain them up as you would normally do, and you should not worry to use other skills that otherwise would replace a third phantasm, because the clone you get from less useful skills would not be a waste.

 

I very much like this idea and would support it, fully.

[glenndevis.8327]

After playing the expansion for a while I feel like Mirage still needs fixes & all but it's enjoyable to play and all.

I just think that the Mirrors are useless. They don't need buffs or small changes. They just need a complete rework.

There have been many ideas of how to change them but the point is whether Anet will actually do it or not.

 

It's not only that they're useless but they completely contradict what Mirage is supposed to be. It doesn't suit Mirage at all from a design perspective.

There's nothing deceiving about the mirrors.

[FaboBabo.3581]

So .. Wheres the mirage specialization update post PoF launch ?

[zealex.9410]

Bubut gs is garbage in instanced pve overall. Buffing the ambush and not spliting it could make it too good in pvp. As for the ambushes being weak thats a by product of ih as long as that trait is there the base ambushes will be on the weak side. Either remove it or make it baseline.

[zealex.9410]

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Kitta.3657 said:

> > - **Infinite Horizon should be baseline. No if or but.** It is what makes Mirage what it is, accompanied to the change to our dodge roll as well of course. I would suggest replacing the trait with one that would let our phantasms use ambushes and create phantasms specific ambushes. Currently, you're punished for having phantasms when your phantasms are still mesmer's bulk damage in PvE.

> >

> I disagree with this, if and but only because of how powerful that would make mirage in PvP, WvW, and probably PvE. It's actually balanced that you have to choose between getting multiple ambushes per dodge versus high condi damage or breaking stuns. Doing what you suggest would have to come with a decrease in the power and utility of ambush skills, which is the exact opposite of what should happen.

>

> Some alternatives:

> Make clones gaining mirage cloak on dodge baseline, but restrict them from using ambushes without the trait.

> Add some other clone related trait to the baseline instead. For instance, clone death as a result of enemies produces a mirror, with an ICD to prevent spam.

>

> > - Mirrors are simply an useless mechanic in their current form. Need rework.

>

> No, they aren't. The problem is that mirage mirror production is too low, not that they're useless.

>

> > - Utilities do not compete with baseline utilities whatsoever in my opinion. None of them bring me something that would make me slot them over besides from Jaunt. This is an issue with mesmer overall, having in general amazing utilities that make it hard to replace for other choices. I can't see myself choosing these over my core mesmer utilities for damage in PvE nor even in PvP/WvW since they don't really bring out utility that I'd require. I am really not a fan of them.

>

> Mirage utilities are all about mobility. That's not necessarily any good in PvE, but it's amazing in PvP. Adding utility in PvE could be accomplished by making the ambushes better, since almost all the mirage skills let you ambush or generate a clone to ambush with.

>

> > - Half of the ambushes are weak. If Anet wants to have ambush skills that aren't about damage (which I agree with), they need to be more in line with Mirage Thrust with a better utility out of them. I don't know how I feel about Chaos Vortex... still is so slow. Split Surge and Imaginary Axes are terrible, they don't bring anything worth using your ambush for and they're not even "free damage after a dodge" at this point. They need reworks or substantial number tuning. At the very least, these are my impressions on them thus far and I have not read through the whole thread but if someone has found something about the 3 lacking ambushes I have not realized yet hit me up because I'd love to know.

>

> I would like to see the other ambushes brought in line utility wise with mirage thrust as well. There's a lot that anet could do that wouldn't be too crazy, but would offer unique gameplay opportunities. Chaos Vortex could be a combo field (similar to how tides of time is a combo field). Ambush Skills could offer boons or combo finishers that the mesmer doesn't otherwise get, or apply useful conditions that mesmer doesn't otherwise get. This is where most of the balance efforts should end up, making the ambush skills feel as impactful as Mirage Thrust.

 

Ambushes are already "weak" because theres Ih as an option.

[Miroe.2054]

I am fine with the Mirage. It's a ton of fun. What I'd like to see change would be how mirrors work. Mainly how they are picked up. Here's a proposition

 

5th Class ability

Assemble Crystals CD: 90s

Create a Mirrage Mirror in a random position within a range of 600

 

Whenever there's a Mirage Mirror within 800 units of the character this Ability transforms into this

 

Mirror Cloak CD: 1s

Consume the Mirage mirror closest to you to grant yourself Mirage Cloak

[Tomatekz.7296]

Overall I really like the Mirage. The main problem I have with it is the lack of mobility while dodging, since the Superspeed gained from Mirage Cloak does nothing to improve sideways or backwards movement (strafing or backpedaling). This means whereas with any other class you could evade backwards to avoid an attack, the Mirage just slowly walks backwards whilst evading instead, and the same for goes for evading sideways.

 

In order to fix this I believe the Mirage should get an upgraded version of Superspeed. This would be present whilst evading with Mirage Cloak, and achieved either through a trait or built into Mirage Cloak automatically. If it was a trait it could say something like: "Superspeed gained from Mirage Cloak is improved". This version of Superspeed would greatly increase movement speed, regardless of the direction of movement. Meaning the Mirage could move around with Mirage Cloak just as effectively as other classes do with regular dodges, even whilst strafing or backpedaling with Mirage Cloak.

 

In my opinion this change would make the class feel a lot more fun to play, whilst still keeping to the theme and abilities of Mirage Cloak.