Necrid.9601 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 In basic PvE content, such as story and open world stuff, I use Power Reaper just because it is fun to use. I myself don't find conditions that fun to use in that setting. I was looking forward to scourge though because all the tools seemed interesting, however just going through the story and maps I'll probably just stick to Power Reaper. I'm probably going to switch to my Zerker or Chrono as my main though because I feel so frustrated whenever I see Anet do anything at all with the necro. This is a good reminder to me not to give in to hype and preorder anything from Arenanet again, at least not on the promises of necro stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam.4092 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Shadowresli.3782 said: > > @XenesisII.1540 said: > > > @Aktium.9506 said: > > > It's so nice when irrelevant game modes like WvW where balance doesn't matter to begin with impacts actual game modes like PvP and Raids > > > > Heh. > > Spvp has it's own balance system. > > Raids are against npcs which can be easily tuned to players, so balance there is actually irrelevant. > > For wvw it's pvp using pve balance, which obviously means it should be balanced with use against players in wvw. > > But I'm sure each and every wvw player would tell you they would prefer if wvw had it's own balance system like spvp, and let pve have their broken balance system. > > > > > > as he said, an own balance system for wvw would be extremly nice > also as a wvw player i can't understand 8 pages of whining about an irrelevant game mode like raids :p All content is irrelevant in an irrelevant game right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanto.1659 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @ProtoGunner.4953 said: > I love when the ridiculous overprotective profanity filter kicks in and fucks up the post of a developer. Wait, the plural of shade is blocked, but fucks is not? LOOOOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Morbius.1759 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 First let's keep in mind that not all of us actually have to play the content to understand the mathematics behind the possible affects it would have in game play. Secondly, the nerf may have been needed in WvW and most everyone has agreed with that but there is no justification to not splitting the skills because now we won't ever know how well or poorly they performed prior to said nerfs in PvE content. Thirdly how are such changes even made based off one play style? How can anyone justify major changes to a particular build based on the feedback of two weekends worth of playtime after taking 2 years to develop the Eilte specification in the first place. If anything that should give you pause for concern outright. I'd much prefer some kind of in depth explanation by the developers as to how or why they felt these were necessary in all play styles, because that i think would add some value. Like i said I am very happy i did not chase up hero points and spend money on gear or make any fundamental changes prior to launch because this would have sent me packing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Shadowresli.3782 said: > > @XenesisII.1540 said: > > > @Aktium.9506 said: > > > It's so nice when irrelevant game modes like WvW where balance doesn't matter to begin with impacts actual game modes like PvP and Raids > > > > Heh. > > Spvp has it's own balance system. > > Raids are against npcs which can be easily tuned to players, so balance there is actually irrelevant. > > For wvw it's pvp using pve balance, which obviously means it should be balanced with use against players in wvw. > > But I'm sure each and every wvw player would tell you they would prefer if wvw had it's own balance system like spvp, and let pve have their broken balance system. > > > > > > as he said, an own balance system for wvw would be extremly nice > also as a wvw player i can't understand 8 pages of whining about an irrelevant game mode like raids :p You should understand because before the changes: - Scourge felt to strong for other profession in PvP. - Scourge was OP in WvW. - Scourge was already a fail for PvE. Non with the change: - Scourge will still feel to strong for other profession in PvP for at least 2 weeks. - Scourge will still feel OP in WvW. - Scourge will still be a fail for PvE. If we take a step back, it globally change nothing for the scourge except that it's less potent where he was very potent and even less relevant where he was irrelevant. The point is more that the spec was letting some PvE player see some hope for PvE. A hope to see something else than the cruel reality where the necromancer is discriminated when they want to play some high end content. It was a fake hope sure but they wanted to at least have a go at it. And these change just crushed those hopes. All those "if this is done to core then..." and those "It might be possible to..." or "futur content will surely..." were crushed with these changes. You got a necromancer PvE community that is incredibly frustrated, something that's been boiling for 5 long years and you show it a spec of hope for a few day then remove it just at the moment they expect to see it becoming real. How can you not understand that it was bound to explode and produce more than 8 page of complaint? The only worth of the necromancer have been in WvW zerging, no necromancer that is a WvWer only can feel this. And it's understandable, in zerg, necromancer rarely were discriminated. But WvW is not the only gamemode. WvW is a gamemode that was highly competitve at some point and lost a lot of it's appeal over the years. PvE on another hand is a content where a great deal of the necromancer community lie. All those players that do not like to fight against other players (be it due to ethic or simply by lack of ability or time) and prefer to fight against mechanisms in PvE and discover new horizons. Those players hope that one day they would be seen as helpfull, maybe not needed, but at least, welcome in the gamemode where they play. Scourge wasn't an answer to that but it had tools that felt like it was worth trying. With the reduced dps induced by these changes, the already thin possibility just crumbled. What you read on this thread is just what 5 years of bitterness can produce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunTzu.4513 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > PvE on another hand is a content where a great deal of the necromancer community lie. All those players that do not like to fight against other players (be it due to ethic or simply by lack of ability or time) and prefer to fight against mechanisms in PvE and discover new horizons. Those players hope that one day they would be seen as helpfull, maybe not needed, but at least, welcome in the gamemode where they play. Scourge wasn't an answer to that but it had tools that felt like it was worth trying. With the reduced dps induced by these changes, the already thin possibility just crumbled. What you read on this thread is just what 5 years of bitterness can produce. So much this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova.3817 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 changes are meh the duration nerf is lame id rather see a nerf to another aspect of the specialization ...also i still cant really picture a solid use for the larger sand shade feels pretty bad.... overall i feel like the nerfs are gonna force scourages to actually be in range to deal good dmg and which case bc of the new mechanics with sand shroud you will go down FAST i just dont see it being very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mea.5491 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Eburte.9813 said: > Welp, looks like it's time to get a new main. I quit my Reaper main after the August 8 nerf. But this was the final nail in the coffin. RIP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Dadnir.5038 said: > If we take a step back, it globally change nothing for the scourge except that it's less potent where he was very potent and even less relevant where he was irrelevant. The point is more that the spec was letting some PvE player see some hope for PvE. A hope to see something else than the cruel reality where the necromancer is discriminated when they want to play some high end content. It was a fake hope sure but they wanted to at least have a go at it. And these change just crushed those hopes. All those "if this is done to core then..." and those "It might be possible to..." or "futur content will surely..." were crushed with these changes. > > You got a necromancer PvE community that is incredibly frustrated, something that's been boiling for 5 long years and you show it a spec of hope for a few day then remove it just at the moment they expect to see it becoming real. How can you not understand that it was bound to explode and produce more than 8 page of complaint? > > The only worth of the necromancer have been in WvW zerging, no necromancer that is a WvWer only can feel this. And it's understandable, in zerg, necromancer rarely were discriminated. But WvW is not the only gamemode. WvW is a gamemode that was highly competitve at some point and lost a lot of it's appeal over the years. > > PvE on another hand is a content where a great deal of the necromancer community lie. All those players that do not like to fight against other players (be it due to ethic or simply by lack of ability or time) and prefer to fight against mechanisms in PvE and discover new horizons. Those players hope that one day they would be seen as helpfull, maybe not needed, but at least, welcome in the gamemode where they play. Scourge wasn't an answer to that but it had tools that felt like it was worth trying. With the reduced dps induced by these changes, the already thin possibility just crumbled. What you read on this thread is just what 5 years of bitterness can produce. That's a problem of anet designing necromancers around corruption which is much more useful for pvp, and then taking them fully down that path with scourge, which again isn't very useful for pve but useful for pvp. You can blame anet for that direction in class designs not wvw players. Raids and pve is really just a dps check, which anet seems reluctant to help necros with. P.S Necromancer is my main, I love the class, but I was fully expecting them to nerf scourge. Pretty much the only new spec I was interested in, and why I didn't bother buying the expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flumek.9043 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 HUGELY DISSAPPOINTED KITTEN SMALL CAT KITTEN why? **EVERYBODY GOT AFTERCAST AND ANIMATION SPEED UPS.** If tommorow the base necro dagger, is only dagger AND ALL OTHER 4/5 USE THE FASTER AUTOATTACK - I AM NOT BUYING. QOL changes on every other class, I simply cant enjoy combat balanced around 2 APM , CLICKING , CASUAL devs dueling on keep WITH MYSTIC BUILDS. Fool me once... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowresli.3782 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Dadnir.5038 said: > You got a necromancer PvE community that is incredibly frustrated, something that's been boiling for 5 long years and you show it a spec of hope for a few day then remove it just at the moment they expect to see it becoming real. How can you not understand that it was bound to explode and produce more than 8 page of complaint? i see the point. BUT as someone who plays mostly WvW, been there, done that (to mention only the new maps debacle or the world balance as a whole). > The only worth of the necromancer have been in WvW zerging, no necromancer that is a WvWer only can feel this. And it's understandable, in zerg, necromancer rarely were discriminated. But WvW is not the only gamemode. WvW is a gamemode that was highly competitve at some point and lost a lot of it's appeal over the years. to the second part i agree, and it still has it's appeal for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zefiris.8297 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Shadowresli.3782 said: > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > You got a necromancer PvE community that is incredibly frustrated, something that's been boiling for 5 long years and you show it a spec of hope for a few day then remove it just at the moment they expect to see it becoming real. How can you not understand that it was bound to explode and produce more than 8 page of complaint? > > i see the point. BUT as someone who plays mostly WvW, been there, done that (to mention only the new maps debacle or the world balance as a whole). > > > The only worth of the necromancer have been in WvW zerging, no necromancer that is a WvWer only can feel this. And it's understandable, in zerg, necromancer rarely were discriminated. But WvW is not the only gamemode. WvW is a gamemode that was highly competitve at some point and lost a lot of it's appeal over the years. > > to the second part i agree, and it still has it's appeal for me Again, your rage at people defeating you in WvW once does not justify an entire class being useless in the largest gamemode of the game :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phoone.8230 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 splitting balance between pve and wvw seems like the most obvious fix they could have done, and i think most people agree on that... even if not, if they're so worried about large aoe spam for wvw, why not just make the life force cost on scourge f skills scale with number of shades active? it'd provide more incentive for careful positioning and would provide a further incentive to take Sand Savant as the LF costs for the single big pillar would match having a single small pillar active. making the big pillar the default for the spec and having the grandmaster split it into 3 smaller pillars would also be a much more interesting option at this point, i think, forcing you to choose between having more AOE vs higher dps, etc, rather than the current choice which is 'take Sand Savant or be unable to keep your whole raid supported at once' EDIT: seemed so obvious i forgot to mention it at first but the minor traits which reward having as many shades out at once as you can need to be reworked especially with this shade duration nerf :\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuyuske.7182 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 I'm trying to remain positive. I'll probably try to find ways to make Scourge work. I know the forums of every MMO are perpetual cesspits of negativity. But this **really** hurts. Seriously, Anet devs, did the goth kids beat you all up for your lunch money when you were in school and you're bitter about it? Is there an Anet class design policy that says "Anything necromancers can do, other classes **must** be able to do better?" Oh, and if you were hoping that Nourishing Rot would keep us going? Well, better hope we don't have any Spellbreakers on our team nearby! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kam.4092 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 I hate everything right now. Going to sleep until tomorrow. Goodnight everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vitali.5039 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Kam.4092 said: > I hate everything right now. Going to sleep until tomorrow. Goodnight everyone. Night, hoping for some power reaper buff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiko.6081 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 Just remove the profession already Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowresli.3782 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Zefiris.8297 said: > > @Shadowresli.3782 said: > > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > You got a necromancer PvE community that is incredibly frustrated, something that's been boiling for 5 long years and you show it a spec of hope for a few day then remove it just at the moment they expect to see it becoming real. How can you not understand that it was bound to explode and produce more than 8 page of complaint? > > > > i see the point. BUT as someone who plays mostly WvW, been there, done that (to mention only the new maps debacle or the world balance as a whole). > > > > > The only worth of the necromancer have been in WvW zerging, no necromancer that is a WvWer only can feel this. And it's understandable, in zerg, necromancer rarely were discriminated. But WvW is not the only gamemode. WvW is a gamemode that was highly competitve at some point and lost a lot of it's appeal over the years. > > > > to the second part i agree, and it still has it's appeal for me > > Again, your rage at people defeating you in WvW once does not justify an entire class being useless in the largest gamemode of the game :P > > btw i play necro in wvw. which gamemode do you mean?? PvE? useless would mean, that you can't play certain things, but you can play 95% of pve. for raids or tier 4 fractals scourge won't be meta, so what. with people you know it won't matter that much, and it can be done and if you're after records, speedclearing and stuff it won't change much, necro wasn't part of it until now anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aesa.4819 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 Wow I'm super disappointed in these nerfs, unbelievable. If anything Scourge needed buffs in some areas.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuyuske.7182 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Shadowresli.3782 said: > and if you're after records, speedclearing and stuff it won't change much, necro wasn't part of it until now anyways. **THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mown.2356 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Shadowresli.3782 said: > for raids or tier 4 fractals scourge won't be meta, so what. with people you know it won't matter that much Finding 9 other people that are willing and able to raid with you is a non-trivial task, and some people don't like to feel like a liability, even if the task is theoretically achievable. > @Shadowresli.3782 said: > it won't change much, necro wasn't part of it until now anyways. In other words, "You were already neglected, so why does it bother you that they continue to not care?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiki.7148 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Shadowresli.3782 said: > > @Zefiris.8297 said: > > > @Shadowresli.3782 said: > > > > @Dadnir.5038 said: > > > > You got a necromancer PvE community that is incredibly frustrated, something that's been boiling for 5 long years and you show it a spec of hope for a few day then remove it just at the moment they expect to see it becoming real. How can you not understand that it was bound to explode and produce more than 8 page of complaint? > > > > > > i see the point. BUT as someone who plays mostly WvW, been there, done that (to mention only the new maps debacle or the world balance as a whole). > > > > > > > The only worth of the necromancer have been in WvW zerging, no necromancer that is a WvWer only can feel this. And it's understandable, in zerg, necromancer rarely were discriminated. But WvW is not the only gamemode. WvW is a gamemode that was highly competitve at some point and lost a lot of it's appeal over the years. > > > > > > to the second part i agree, and it still has it's appeal for me > > > > Again, your rage at people defeating you in WvW once does not justify an entire class being useless in the largest gamemode of the game :P > > > > > > btw i play necro in wvw. > which gamemode do you mean?? PvE? useless would mean, that you can't play certain things, but you can play 95% of pve. for raids or tier 4 fractals scourge won't be meta, so what. with people you know it won't matter that much, and it can be done and if you're after records, speedclearing and stuff it won't change much, necro wasn't part of it until now anyways. The problem is that every other profession has a spec that is desirable in raids or t4 fractals. Except Necro. And the other problem is that the other elite specs received alot of buffs and almost no nerfs, so even if they were on the same level of power as the scourge, now they are - again - miles ahead. Always playing the profession that is the worst at everything (useful) in PvE is not exactly fun. Hell, trying to find freaking t2 Molten Boss that is not "lol meta farm no necro gtfo" is a challenge sometimes, and making your own room...it has taken my room an hour to fill just last week. And now, the worst part: It was not neccessary, as they have split stuff between PvE and PvP before, and if they hadn't been too lazy to write another few lines of code this blowup here would not have happened. Hell, if the story hadn'T been the same for launch, HoT launch and now this (look promising, gets nerfed into the ground last iteration before launch) we would not have this discussion. Or if Anet actually read the Necro forums aswell and sometimes gave statements why something was destroyed or why other professions keep eating buffs while Necros usually get hit with a bat. Or, at most, get a 2% dmg increase on Axe auto that nobody really wanted or needed. A simple "we are aware of the potential impact on PvE and will monitor the situation closely the month after launch" would go a long way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wintermute.5408 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 Why are PVE necros complaining? Nobody would give a fuck for the Scourge "support" in PVE, so that nerf doesn't concern us. If you want to torture yourself, grab big shade and easily cover 10 people. Done. And we got a buff to LF generation. Everything counts. Now, if core changes just happen to be some extra LF for scepter, it all would be extra sweet there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiki.7148 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Wintermute.5408 said: > Why are PVE necros complaining? > > Nobody would give a kitten for the Scourge "support" in PVE, so that nerf doesn't concern us. If you want to torture yourself, grab big shade and easily cover 10 people. Done. > And we got a buff to LF generation. Everything counts. > > Now, if core changes just happen to be some extra LF for scepter, it all would be extra sweet there. Because Scourge MIGHT have had a space for pug raids if we could take demonic lore and still cover the raid, because then we might have been the one "full support" that actually did good damage. I have absolutely no problem with Scourge not being taken for ultraspeed clears. I have a problem with any form of Necromancer spec being immediatly excluded from PUG RAIDS. "No Necromancer/Reaper" , "Meta only" etc. all that bull. As long as those go, or Scourge is "meta enough", that would be perfectly fine for me. But where before the chance was already slim, now it looks to be another 2+ years of never finding a single raid group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zefiris.8297 Posted September 21, 2017 Share Posted September 21, 2017 > @Shadowresli.3782 said: > with people you know it won't matter that much, and it can be done and if you're after records, speedclearing and stuff it won't change much, necro wasn't part of it until now anyways. Thanks for admitting the problem everyone else is complaining about. You may be happy with not being part of something, but the rest of us don't have to be. >@Wintermute.5408 said: >And we got a buff to LF generation. Everything counts. No, we got a nerf because the important abilities cost more. Read the changes FULLY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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