Anticipated Changes

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> But it is an actual split?

> The damage confusion does is different from Pve in Spvp..

> If they weren't split it would be the same?

> Again, split between these conditions was already done.

 

By actually split. I mean revert the changes that were added BECAUSE of PvE. When they remove the passive damage they both do. That is when they are actually properly split. The passive damage was added because of PvE and until they are removed. They are STILL balanced due to the PvE aspect.

 

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> This is true, Currently the ability to burst multiple damaging and non damaging conditions on a singular character is too strong, and this goes for many condi builds.

> They took a step in the right direction of nerfing other builds with the latest patch, but I will say they made a mistake by not carrying that over to mesmer.

> If burst conditions are going to be a thing in GW2 then the damage output for ALL conditions on every build needs to be lowered.

 

> Especially considering that most condition builds in a pvp environment are using tank stats

 

While others (Scourge for example) can burst loads of conditions. None are as threatening when combined than the over the top application Mesmer can do with Torment and Confusion. Too many stacks, too much application and too long duration. They did take a step in the right direction. They however, ignored the most broken Condi spec. Scourge can be countered quite easily, ranged, lock downs, CC all of them are killers against Scourges. What are Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage weaknesses? The stealth, the teleports, the mobility they are VERY difficult to lock down let alone kill.

 

Yeah i would agree, they need to actually decide. Do they want all condi classes be sustained or burst? I wouldnt mind if they were a mix. They would however need to actually BALANCE the burst condi builds. They would need much lower Condi duration, longer cool downs on their burst. This is something IF they want Mesmer to be a Burst condi class they would have to do with both Confusion and Torment and i wouldnt mind that. The current issue is they are burst damage, constant application and long duration.

 

I would also think that bunker condi stat combos need to be adjusted. I would say keep them but adjust them, increase the condition duration BUT lower the toughness and vitality stats. So they deal more damage but at the same time, they are weaker. I dont think they will EVER remove bunker condi stats nor will they ever admit that Condition damage is broken in that it only needs 1 stat.

 

 

> Burst conditions is a straight up contradiction to what condition damage was proposed to be.

> There should not exist an environment where condition damage does the same or near the same damage as direct damage in the same time frame and there should never exist an instance where within a second you get 5-6 unique conditions with 2-4 of those being damaging conditions with 5+stacks.

 

Of course it does. That doesnt seem to matter to Anet. In pretty much every other game. Condition damage works VERY different. Here its constant, never ending application with NO down time at all. You're always getting conditions applied to you, the only change (for some builds) is the amount of stacks and the number of conditions. Other games have it so that the conditions are there to support and help. They arent the build. They arent the ONLY damage done.

[Solori.6025]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > But it is an actual split?

> > The damage confusion does is different from Pve in Spvp..

> > If they weren't split it would be the same?

> > Again, split between these conditions was already done.

>

> By actually split. I mean revert the changes that were added BECAUSE of PvE. When they remove the passive damage they both do. That is when they are actually properly split. The passive damage was added because of PvE and until they are removed. They are STILL balanced due to the PvE aspect.

>

 

Oh I see you want confusion to function like it did 2012.

I wouldn't be opposed to that honestly

 

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > This is true, Currently the ability to burst multiple damaging and non damaging conditions on a singular character is too strong, and this goes for many condi builds.

> > They took a step in the right direction of nerfing other builds with the latest patch, but I will say they made a mistake by not carrying that over to mesmer.

> > If burst conditions are going to be a thing in GW2 then the damage output for ALL conditions on every build needs to be lowered.

>

> > Especially considering that most condition builds in a pvp environment are using tank stats

>

> While others (Scourge for example) can burst loads of conditions. None are as threatening when combined than the over the top application Mesmer can do with Torment and Confusion. Too many stacks, too much application and too long duration. They did take a step in the right direction. They however, ignored the most broken Condi spec. Scourge can be countered quite easily, ranged, lock downs, CC all of them are killers against Scourges. What are Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage weaknesses? The stealth, the teleports, the mobility they are VERY difficult to lock down let alone kill.

>

 

We could argue that scourge is the lesser of evils when comparing the condition build between mesmer and scourge( and I highly disagree with that) but that would be long and end with the same conclusion.

Both classes have to many ways to apply 4+ unique conditions. I wont say mesmer was the most broken, because before the scourge nerf ( well all stacking nerfs done previously) scourge was condi king, and in small and large group play it still is.

 

 

> I would also think that bunker condi stat combos need to be adjusted. I would say keep them but adjust them, increase the condition duration BUT lower the toughness and vitality stats. So they deal more damage but at the same time, they are weaker. I dont think they will EVER remove bunker condi stats nor will they ever admit that Condition damage is broken in that it only needs 1 stat.

>

I think they should do away with that stat combo in it's entirety

Condition damage already doesn't get mitigated through armor or protection, and currently can be applied en-masse as you said below with no downtime.

Their was no reason to add vitality AND toughness to armor that already can mindlessly apply conditions at constant ( dare I say extreme) rate that is achievable in this game.

> > Burst conditions is a straight up contradiction to what condition damage was proposed to be.

> > There should not exist an environment where condition damage does the same or near the same damage as direct damage in the same time frame and there should never exist an instance where within a second you get 5-6 unique conditions with 2-4 of those being damaging conditions with 5+stacks.

>

> Of course it does. That doesnt seem to matter to Anet. In pretty much every other game. Condition damage works VERY different. Here its constant, never ending application with NO down time at all. You're always getting conditions applied to you, the only change (for some builds) is the amount of stacks and the number of conditions. Other games have it so that the conditions are there to support and help. They arent the build. They arent the ONLY damage done.

 

+1 I agree with this observation

[dontlook.1823]

I have been reading some of the comments. Some really good ideas. Keep it up. My fingers are going to be so stronk after this. Try to keep your input matour and as constructive as ya can.

[Carighan.6758]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> By actually split. I mean revert the changes that were added BECAUSE of PvE. When they remove the passive damage they both do. That is when they are actually properly split. The passive damage was added because of PvE and until they are removed. They are STILL balanced due to the PvE aspect.

 

Would this also mean the on-skill-use damage of Confusion gets doubled again? Back to its original level?

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> Oh I see you want confusion to function like it did 2012.

> I wouldn't be opposed to that honestly

 

Yeah. The same for Torment. They dont NEED the added passive damage in PvP and WvW. It goes against the "Punishment" conditions they were supposed to be. I would go further with the changes to them though. I would say my idea would be a good way to have it punish the the target for the RIGHT reasons, as the reasons they were designed for.

 

My idea:

Confusion: Remove the passive damage. Remove the damage when you use AUTO attack. Make it so that it only does the damage from using 2-5 on weapon skills and the heal, utilities and elite.

 

Torment: Remove the passive damage when you aren't moving. Make so it damages the player ONLY when they move

 

>> @"Solori.6025" said:

> We could argue that scourge is the lesser of evils when comparing the condition build between mesmer and scourge( and I highly disagree with that) but that would be long and end with the same conclusion.

> Both classes have to many ways to apply 4+ unique conditions. I wont say mesmer was the most broken, because before the scourge nerf ( well all stacking nerfs done previously) scourge was condi king, and in small and large group play it still is.

 

Scourge is 100% the lesser of 2 evils. Scourge has counters. Scourge has weaknesses. Mesmer has too much mobility, too much defense, stealth. While Scourge can be strong its counters make it okay. yeah it does need its Blobfest strengths toned down. It does have weaknesses when it comes to small group and 1Vs1. The same cant be said about Mesmer it has too much access to the strongest conditions (Torment and Confusion) has too much application, too much duration and then too much defense and mobility and is just a little too difficult to lock down. Even before the Scourge nerfs Scourge had its weaknesses. It is still too strong for Zerg fights but it can be rather easily killed by anyone with lock downs and ranged. Which is fine for small group and solo as it has its counters.

 

>> @"Solori.6025" said:

> I think they should do away with that stat combo in it's interity

> Condition damage already doesn't get mitigated through armor or protection, and currently can be applied en-masse as you said below with no downtime.

> Their was no reason to add vitality AND toughness to armor that already can mindlessly apply conditions at constant ( dare I say extreme) rate that is achievable in this game.

 

They should. They wont. Yeah, there was very little reason for them adding Trailblazer, Dire, Rabid. They shouldnt have been added. They wont ever be removed now. Its too late. They are here for good, the best we could hope for is them to reduce the bunkerness of the stats.

 

>> @"Solori.6025" said:

> +1 I agree with this observation

 

Yep. Conditions in this game work SO badly, i just dont see how they couldn't see it was like that in other games for a GOOD reason. They basically took that idea, gave the damage a HUGE buff and ignored the fact they they did VERY little to adjust condition removals/counters. The HUGE condition buff came along with no thought about PvP or WvW :/

 

 

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Carighan.6758" said:

> Would this also mean the on-skill-use damage of Confusion gets doubled again? Back to its original level?

 

If they manage to reduce the duration enough. The other issue would be condition duration extending stats and such. It would need to be able to be made that the duration cant be extended beyond like 40-50% max. If anything, i wish they would just get rid of Condition duration increases and condition duration decreases stats, gear, food ans such. It would make balancing conditions SO much easier.

 

 

[Arlette.9684]

I love it when non Mesmer players, come to the Mesmer forums and tell the Mesmer community, what’s best for Mesmer. :astonished:

[Solori.6025]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> I love it when non Mesmer players, come to the Mesmer forums and tell the Mesmer community, what’s best for Mesmer. :astonished:

 

It's better when it's a thief crying mesmer is OP.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> I love it when non Mesmer players, come to the Mesmer forums and tell the Mesmer community, what’s best for Mesmer. :astonished:

 

I mostly love how this guy keeps ignoring when people flatly prove how weak Torment and Confusion actually are and the fact that you can only apply en masse stacks of them if your target is a ninny who forgets what dodging and/or cleansing is. We also only have 2 cover conditions compared to the basically infinite amount Scourge has. And that his proposed fixes are garbage tier and are purely the result of not liking having to fight mesmer. Then he bemoans how conditions work in the game and keeps saying "they don't work that way in other games," when the only other example of games having "conditions" is GW1 which is entirely different in how its combat is played. Unless he means DoTs in which case, still wrong because how other games do it is you have to maintain a DoT and reapply it every 30 seconds the one exception being Affliction Warlock where you constantly reapply DoTs (e.g. how it works in this game) and it doesn't have a separate stat you need to invest in to make them decent. Basically any other game with DoTs does not make DoTs their own separate system, they're not really relevant here. And for the cherry on top Mesmer has exactly 3 sources of halfway decent stealth, 2 of which you have to give up a different skill for all of which are on a not insignificant cooldown.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > But it is an actual split?

> > The damage confusion does is different from Pve in Spvp..

> > If they weren't split it would be the same?

> > Again, split between these conditions was already done.

>

> By actually split. I mean revert the changes that were added BECAUSE of PvE. When they remove the passive damage they both do. That is when they are actually properly split. The passive damage was added because of PvE and until they are removed. They are STILL balanced due to the PvE aspect.

>

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > This is true, Currently the ability to burst multiple damaging and non damaging conditions on a singular character is too strong, and this goes for many condi builds.

> > They took a step in the right direction of nerfing other builds with the latest patch, but I will say they made a mistake by not carrying that over to mesmer.

> > If burst conditions are going to be a thing in GW2 then the damage output for ALL conditions on every build needs to be lowered.

>

> > Especially considering that most condition builds in a pvp environment are using tank stats

>

> While others (Scourge for example) can burst loads of conditions. None are as threatening when combined than the over the top application Mesmer can do with Torment and Confusion. Too many stacks, too much application and too long duration. They did take a step in the right direction. They however, ignored the most broken Condi spec. Scourge can be countered quite easily, ranged, lock downs, CC all of them are killers against Scourges. What are Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage weaknesses? The stealth, the teleports, the mobility they are VERY difficult to lock down let alone kill.

>

> Yeah i would agree, they need to actually decide. Do they want all condi classes be sustained or burst? I wouldnt mind if they were a mix. They would however need to actually BALANCE the burst condi builds. They would need much lower Condi duration, longer cool downs on their burst. This is something IF they want Mesmer to be a Burst condi class they would have to do with both Confusion and Torment and i wouldnt mind that. The current issue is they are burst damage, constant application and long duration.

>

> I would also think that bunker condi stat combos need to be adjusted. I would say keep them but adjust them, increase the condition duration BUT lower the toughness and vitality stats. So they deal more damage but at the same time, they are weaker. I dont think they will EVER remove bunker condi stats nor will they ever admit that Condition damage is broken in that it only needs 1 stat.

>

>

> > Burst conditions is a straight up contradiction to what condition damage was proposed to be.

> > There should not exist an environment where condition damage does the same or near the same damage as direct damage in the same time frame and there should never exist an instance where within a second you get 5-6 unique conditions with 2-4 of those being damaging conditions with 5+stacks.

>

> Of course it does. That doesnt seem to matter to Anet. In pretty much every other game. Condition damage works VERY different. Here its constant, never ending application with NO down time at all. You're always getting conditions applied to you, the only change (for some builds) is the amount of stacks and the number of conditions. Other games have it so that the conditions are there to support and help. They arent the build. They arent the ONLY damage done.

 

So, I've been thinking about your proposed changes to confusion and torment and have come to the conclusion that they would completely destroy condi mesmer in all forms. Here is why. What is the purpose of conditions? They are designed to put pressure on the target and force them to react to them. This pressure usually takes the form of soft cc or passive ticks of damage. These ticks of damage are very important because even if they don't do a lot of damage themselves, they put psychological pressure on the target and force them to react. Now, if we take your proposal and apply it to a duel with a mesmer, without the passive ticks of damage from torment or confusion, a lot of the psychological pressure is gone. And since all the target would have to do against a mesmer is stand still and auto attack, the condi mesmer would become useless.

 

Let's not forget that except for the burning from the torch (which is on a 20 second cooldown) we have only confusion as our main condition. If you were in charge of balancing for the game and put your ideas into effect, what would you give mesmers in return for crippling their main damaging condition?

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> So, I've been thinking about your proposed changes to confusion and torment and have come to the conclusion that they would completely destroy condi mesmer in all forms. Here is why. What is the purpose of conditions? They are designed to put pressure on the target and force them to react to them. This pressure usually takes the form of soft cc or passive ticks of damage. These ticks of damage are very important because even if they don't do a lot of damage themselves, they put psychological pressure on the target and force them to react. Now, if we take your proposal and apply it to a duel with a mesmer, without the passive ticks of damage from torment or confusion, a lot of the psychological pressure is gone. And since all the target would have to do against a mesmer is stand still and auto attack, the condi mesmer would become useless.

>

> Let's not forget that except for the burning from the torch (which is on a 20 second cooldown) we have only confusion as our main condition. If you were in charge of balancing for the game and put your ideas into effect, what would you give mesmers in return for crippling their main damaging condition?

 

It would be better that than, lets be honest the way Anet are likely to take - over nerf with reduction to application, duration and stacks. When was the last time they actually did a BALANCED nerf? I cant think of it myself. It has been that long.

 

The changes however, would turn the conditions back towards there introduced intended interaction with targets. There to punish movement (Torment) and there to punish using skills (Confusion) the additional changes i thought of would be a mix of the initial design of the conditions and a few tweaks. This would allow Mesmer to keep High burst application or sustained application but would be more balanced.

 

It would also mean the damage the conditions do would be able to be buffed, You would lose the passive damage the conditions do but at the same time gain damage for when targets do what the Condition says they shouldnt. I did add the exception to Confusion to allow auto attacks to not count as for most classes, auto attacks arent going to be too threatening for a Mesmer BUT at the same time would allow the person to be able to pressure the Mesmer with their own damage.

 

You do know they have TWO very high damaging Conditions. Confusion AND Torment they have BIG application of long duration AND Burst application of both of these Conditions. Losing the Passive damage but increasing the PROPER active damage of the conditions would NOT cripple the class. This sort of change could then be used for either having them as Burst damage Condi (High stacks, long cool down between) or Sustained Condi (Low stacks, Longer Duration, more application) and most importantly, it would move the conditions back towards their previous (and better) design. Punishing for the right situation.

 

 

[dontlook.1823]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> I love it when non Mesmer players, come to the Mesmer forums and tell the Mesmer community, what’s best for Mesmer. :astonished:

 

I certainly do not B)

[Arlette.9684]

> @"dontlook.1823" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > I love it when non Mesmer players, come to the Mesmer forums and tell the Mesmer community, what’s best for Mesmer. :astonished:

>

> I certainly do not B)

 

I was beind sarcastic.

[dontlook.1823]

> @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > @"dontlook.1823" said:

> > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > I love it when non Mesmer players, come to the Mesmer forums and tell the Mesmer community, what’s best for Mesmer. :astonished:

> >

> > I certainly do not B)

>

> I was beind sarcastic.

 

I know B) B)

[Arlette.9684]

> @"dontlook.1823" said:

> > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > @"dontlook.1823" said:

> > > > @"Arlette.9684" said:

> > > > I love it when non Mesmer players, come to the Mesmer forums and tell the Mesmer community, what’s best for Mesmer. :astonished:

> > >

> > > I certainly do not B)

> >

> > I was beind sarcastic.

>

> I know B) B)

 

I know, that you know.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > So, I've been thinking about your proposed changes to confusion and torment and have come to the conclusion that they would completely destroy condi mesmer in all forms. Here is why. What is the purpose of conditions? They are designed to put pressure on the target and force them to react to them. This pressure usually takes the form of soft cc or passive ticks of damage. These ticks of damage are very important because even if they don't do a lot of damage themselves, they put psychological pressure on the target and force them to react. Now, if we take your proposal and apply it to a duel with a mesmer, without the passive ticks of damage from torment or confusion, a lot of the psychological pressure is gone. And since all the target would have to do against a mesmer is stand still and auto attack, the condi mesmer would become useless.

> >

> > Let's not forget that except for the burning from the torch (which is on a 20 second cooldown) we have only confusion as our main condition. If you were in charge of balancing for the game and put your ideas into effect, what would you give mesmers in return for crippling their main damaging condition?

>

> It would be better that than, lets be honest the way Anet are likely to take - over nerf with reduction to application, duration and stacks. When was the last time they actually did a BALANCED nerf? I cant think of it myself. It has been that long.

>

> The changes however, would turn the conditions back towards there introduced intended interaction with targets. There to punish movement (Torment) and there to punish using skills (Confusion) the additional changes i thought of would be a mix of the initial design of the conditions and a few tweaks. This would allow Mesmer to keep High burst application or sustained application but would be more balanced.

>

> It would also mean the damage the conditions do would be able to be buffed, You would lose the passive damage the conditions do but at the same time gain damage for when targets do what the Condition says they shouldnt. I did add the exception to Confusion to allow auto attacks to not count as for most classes, auto attacks arent going to be too threatening for a Mesmer BUT at the same time would allow the person to be able to pressure the Mesmer with their own damage.

>

> You do know they have TWO very high damaging Conditions. Confusion AND Torment they have BIG application of long duration AND Burst application of both of these Conditions. Losing the Passive damage but increasing the PROPER active damage of the conditions would NOT cripple the class. This sort of change could then be used for either having them as Burst damage Condi (High stacks, long cool down between) or Sustained Condi (Low stacks, Longer Duration, more application) and most importantly, it would move the conditions back towards their previous (and better) design. Punishing for the right situation.

>

>

 

Torment always had passive damage. I don't know why you think the passive damage should go away.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > So, I've been thinking about your proposed changes to confusion and torment and have come to the conclusion that they would completely destroy condi mesmer in all forms. Here is why. What is the purpose of conditions? They are designed to put pressure on the target and force them to react to them. This pressure usually takes the form of soft cc or passive ticks of damage. These ticks of damage are very important because even if they don't do a lot of damage themselves, they put psychological pressure on the target and force them to react. Now, if we take your proposal and apply it to a duel with a mesmer, without the passive ticks of damage from torment or confusion, a lot of the psychological pressure is gone. And since all the target would have to do against a mesmer is stand still and auto attack, the condi mesmer would become useless.

> >

> > Let's not forget that except for the burning from the torch (which is on a 20 second cooldown) we have only confusion as our main condition. If you were in charge of balancing for the game and put your ideas into effect, what would you give mesmers in return for crippling their main damaging condition?

>

> It would be better that than, lets be honest the way Anet are likely to take - over nerf with reduction to application, duration and stacks. When was the last time they actually did a BALANCED nerf? I cant think of it myself. It has been that long.

>

> The changes however, would turn the conditions back towards there introduced intended interaction with targets. There to punish movement (Torment) and there to punish using skills (Confusion) the additional changes i thought of would be a mix of the initial design of the conditions and a few tweaks. This would allow Mesmer to keep High burst application or sustained application but would be more balanced.

>

> It would also mean the damage the conditions do would be able to be buffed, You would lose the passive damage the conditions do but at the same time gain damage for when targets do what the Condition says they shouldnt. I did add the exception to Confusion to allow auto attacks to not count as for most classes, auto attacks arent going to be too threatening for a Mesmer BUT at the same time would allow the person to be able to pressure the Mesmer with their own damage.

>

> You do know they have TWO very high damaging Conditions. Confusion AND Torment they have BIG application of long duration AND Burst application of both of these Conditions. Losing the Passive damage but increasing the PROPER active damage of the conditions would NOT cripple the class. This sort of change could then be used for either having them as Burst damage Condi (High stacks, long cool down between) or Sustained Condi (Low stacks, Longer Duration, more application) and most importantly, it would move the conditions back towards their previous (and better) design. Punishing for the right situation.

>

>

 

Increasing the active damage on confusion means nothing if the target isn't forced into using any abilities to trigger it. If you put your changes into effect this would be a typical scenario in spvp. Someone on the enemy team is alone capping a point. The Mesmer pops up besides that enemy that puts on a ton of confusion. The enemy player knows there is no threat since the Mesmer is alone and just stands there until the confusion goes away. The Mesmer can't kill the enemy since their only damage comes from confusion, and the enemy player can't kill the Mesmer without using their abilities. The point stays uncapped since neither player is moving and it turns into a stalemate.

 

I don't know about you but that sounds very boring to me.

 

EDIT (I didn't get a chance to finish what I was planning to write earlier):

If they took away the passive ticks of damage from Confusion and Torment they would need to give Mesmers another damaging condition to apply pressure, or to give them spells that put on psychological pressure to force the target to use their abilities when they don't have to. For example, in GW1 there was a spell called "Illusion of Pain" which would deal damage over time to the target for 8 seconds. At the end of those 8 seconds the target was healed for a decent amount. You might think to yourself "what's the point in dealing damage if they are just going to get healed at the end of it?" The answer is simple: Psychological pressure. If you are in the middle of a fight and you suddenly see your health going down, your natural reaction is to use abilities to keep yourself alive. This plays into the confusion condition very well, as most players don't have the time to think about what is going on, and instead react on instinct. So they use their abilities to defend themselves only to get hit by the confusion damage.

[flog.3485]

Honestly maybe it would be best to get rid of confusion on jaunt and base the damage it produces up to the number of illusions you control (that way, in a SPvP scenario, you favor power for mirage and you let chronomancer get the condition builds with reliance on chronophantasma and illusionary reversion).

 

Second change would be to modify elusive mind on how proficient it can be or how low requirement it needs to be proc'ed.

 

Ideally here is what the balance of mesmer would look like: you have core mesmer who can play condi or power, however mirage would be a better power than core and chrono would be a better condi than core.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @"flog.3485" said:

> Honestly maybe it would be best to get rid of confusion on jaunt and base the damage it produces up to the number of illusions you control (that way, in a SPvP scenario, you favor power for mirage and you let chronomancer get the condition builds with reliance on chronophantasma and illusionary reversion).

>

> Second change would be to modify elusive mind on how proficient it can be or how low requirement it needs to be proc'ed.

>

> Ideally here is what the balance of mesmer would look like: you have core mesmer who can play condi or power, however mirage would be a better power than core and chrono would be a better condi than core.

 

I like the idea, however surely it makes more sense for Mirage to stay as the condi spec and chrono to be the power spec, since axe is quite clearly a condi-based weapon and shield is more suited to power.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> Increasing the active damage on confusion means nothing if the target isn't forced into using any abilities to trigger it. If you put your changes into effect this would be a typical scenario in spvp. Someone on the enemy team is alone capping a point. The Mesmer pops up besides that enemy that puts on a ton of confusion. The enemy player knows there is no threat since the Mesmer is alone and just stands there until the confusion goes away. The Mesmer can't kill the enemy since their only damage comes from confusion, and the enemy player can't kill the Mesmer without using their abilities. The point stays uncapped since neither player is moving and it turns into a stalemate.

>

> I don't know about you but that sounds very boring to me.

>

> EDIT (I didn't get a chance to finish what I was planning to write earlier):

> If they took away the passive ticks of damage from Confusion and Torment they would need to give Mesmers another damaging condition to apply pressure, or to give them spells that put on psychological pressure to force the target to use their abilities when they don't have to. For example, in GW1 there was a spell called "Illusion of Pain" which would deal damage over time to the target for 8 seconds. At the end of those 8 seconds the target was healed for a decent amount. You might think to yourself "what's the point in dealing damage if they are just going to get healed at the end of it?" The answer is simple: Psychological pressure. If you are in the middle of a fight and you suddenly see your health going down, your natural reaction is to use abilities to keep yourself alive. This plays into the confusion condition very well, as most players don't have the time to think about what is going on, and instead react on instinct. So they use their abilities to defend themselves only to get hit by the confusion damage.

 

No because it would be countered by how mobile Mesmer is, so NO class would be able to stay on Mesmer 100% of the time without using movement abilities and it would be people seeing the risk. Do they continue to auto attack and not deal as much damage OR do they risk it and use abilities to try and get the Mesmer down? Again, their damage DOESNT come from JUST Confusion. Its Confusion AND Torment So they would be taking the increased Torment damage (due to lost passive damage), If they use condi clears then they take the damage from using it and with the covering conditions Mesmer has access to it wouldnt be 100% they would remove Torment and Confusion unless they are specific skills that remove multiple conditions.

 

Please remember. This game is MORE than just about S/TPvP. That is just ONE mode. I also HIGHLY disagree with the whole thing you think they would need MORE damaging conditions, When they have access to Burning (Not high stacks but still good stacks) Torment (High stacks) and Confusion (High stacks) Look at the likes of Ele They have access to TWO conditions and they can apply ONE of those at a time and even then, its nowhere near as strong because they cant stay in the atttnements that give those 2 conditions. Same goes for Guard. Only burning, even though its high, high stacks someone brings decent condi removal and then it actually becomes a challenge for the Guard. Which it should be. Staff alone has access to Bleeding, Burning, Chill, Confusion, Cripple, Weakness and Vul that is PLENTY of access to conditions to cover the Torment and Confusion burst. Scepter/Torch would bring Blind, Burning, Confusion and Torment. Axe/Torch brings Bleeding, Blind, Burning, Confusion, Cripple and Torment. They have PLENTY of access to covering conditions so NO. They do not need more conditions.

 

The problem is, Confusion and Torment do NOT work as they did when they were introduced. The passive damage contradicts their design of punishment. It SHOULD be Punishment if you do X rather than Punishment if you do X and Punishment if you dont do X

 

 

 

[flog.3485]

> @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > @"flog.3485" said:

> > Honestly maybe it would be best to get rid of confusion on jaunt and base the damage it produces up to the number of illusions you control (that way, in a SPvP scenario, you favor power for mirage and you let chronomancer get the condition builds with reliance on chronophantasma and illusionary reversion).

> >

> > Second change would be to modify elusive mind on how proficient it can be or how low requirement it needs to be proc'ed.

> >

> > Ideally here is what the balance of mesmer would look like: you have core mesmer who can play condi or power, however mirage would be a better power than core and chrono would be a better condi than core.

>

> I like the idea, however surely it makes more sense for Mirage to stay as the condi spec and chrono to be the power spec, since axe is quite clearly a condi-based weapon and shield is more suited to power.

 

Allow me to disagree. What you are proposing makes much more sense PvE wise to me.

 

The problem is that what we can achieve with SPvP when playing mirage is too much similar with what we could achieve with chrono before (reliance on shatters to apply stacks of confusion and torment). And imo, it is better to apply this logic to a spec who can put this sort of pressure by lowering its cooldown and refresh its skills through continuum split.

 

Don't get me wrong: I am not opposed to the idea of having players being able to play condi shatters with mirage in a sort of top tier or acceptable meta build. The problem I have personally is that both spec use the same main weapons which are sword and staff. And they can both apply a great deal conditions without using the weapons that are able to grant the maximum amount of confusion and torment.

 

That is where the balance is lacking imo. You apply the same sort of build with the same amulet and rune to a spec who can now attack and dodge at the same time: it is too powerful. Before you had sustain with the shield (and double block) who was powerful, sure, but you couldn't attack and dodge at the same time and you certainly did not have a trait which made the core mechanic of spec stronger, i.e. Elusive mind for mirage vs nothing to empower continuum split for chrono.

 

If we need to run meta condi shatter with mirage who relies on condition then it would be best to rely on weapons that efficiently apply stacks confusion and torment, i.e. axe and scepter. And if we do that, then it might be worth looking into utilities and/or traitlines as well as rune and/or amulets that makes us consider not running portal, since we the spec increased our dueling potential.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > Increasing the active damage on confusion means nothing if the target isn't forced into using any abilities to trigger it. If you put your changes into effect this would be a typical scenario in spvp. Someone on the enemy team is alone capping a point. The Mesmer pops up besides that enemy that puts on a ton of confusion. The enemy player knows there is no threat since the Mesmer is alone and just stands there until the confusion goes away. The Mesmer can't kill the enemy since their only damage comes from confusion, and the enemy player can't kill the Mesmer without using their abilities. The point stays uncapped since neither player is moving and it turns into a stalemate.

> >

> > I don't know about you but that sounds very boring to me.

> >

> > EDIT (I didn't get a chance to finish what I was planning to write earlier):

> > If they took away the passive ticks of damage from Confusion and Torment they would need to give Mesmers another damaging condition to apply pressure, or to give them spells that put on psychological pressure to force the target to use their abilities when they don't have to. For example, in GW1 there was a spell called "Illusion of Pain" which would deal damage over time to the target for 8 seconds. At the end of those 8 seconds the target was healed for a decent amount. You might think to yourself "what's the point in dealing damage if they are just going to get healed at the end of it?" The answer is simple: Psychological pressure. If you are in the middle of a fight and you suddenly see your health going down, your natural reaction is to use abilities to keep yourself alive. This plays into the confusion condition very well, as most players don't have the time to think about what is going on, and instead react on instinct. So they use their abilities to defend themselves only to get hit by the confusion damage.

>

> No because it would be countered by how mobile Mesmer is, so NO class would be able to stay on Mesmer 100% of the time without using movement abilities and it would be people seeing the risk. Do they continue to auto attack and not deal as much damage OR do they risk it and use abilities to try and get the Mesmer down? Again, their damage DOESNT come from JUST Confusion. Its Confusion AND Torment So they would be taking the increased Torment damage (due to lost passive damage), If they use condi clears then they take the damage from using it and with the covering conditions Mesmer has access to it wouldnt be 100% they would remove Torment and Confusion unless they are specific skills that remove multiple conditions.

>

> Please remember. This game is MORE than just about S/TPvP. That is just ONE mode. I also HIGHLY disagree with the whole thing you think they would need MORE damaging conditions, When they have access to Burning (Not high stacks but still good stacks) Torment (High stacks) and Confusion (High stacks) Look at the likes of Ele They have access to TWO conditions and they can apply ONE of those at a time and even then, its nowhere near as strong because they cant stay in the atttnements that give those 2 conditions. Same goes for Guard. Only burning, even though its high, high stacks someone brings decent condi removal and then it actually becomes a challenge for the Guard. Which it should be. Staff alone has access to Bleeding, Burning, Chill, Confusion, Cripple, Weakness and Vul that is PLENTY of access to conditions to cover the Torment and Confusion burst. Scepter/Torch would bring Blind, Burning, Confusion and Torment. Axe/Torch brings Bleeding, Blind, Burning, Confusion, Cripple and Torment. They have PLENTY of access to covering conditions so NO. They do not need more conditions.

>

> The problem is, Confusion and Torment do NOT work as they did when they were introduced. The passive damage contradicts their design of punishment. It SHOULD be Punishment if you do X rather than Punishment if you do X and Punishment if you dont do X

>

>

>

 

This is why there needs to be separation between spvp and wvw, because although your logic makes sense for wvw, it fails hard for spvp. Spvp is about capturing and holding points, not about killing other players. Yes killing another player helps because it takes them off the map for a time, but the killing itself is just a means to an end. This means that as long as the enemy player doesn't feel threatened by the Mesmer on the point, there is no reason to chase or try and kill the Mesmer. All they have to do is stand there and wait for the Mesmer to burn themselves out. Unless the Mesmer gets back up from their team they aren't going to be able to force their target off the capture point. Then once the Mesmer runs out of confusion stacks to apply, they have no choice but to leave the point or risk dieing.

 

Why do you think bunker builds are so effective in spvp? They rely on the fact that it would take 2-3 people to force them off the capture point, wasting resources that could be spent else-where. Bunker builds generally speaking can't kill anyone, but they don't have to. All they have to do is stand on the capture point for as long as possible while the enemy team is forced to spend a lot of resources dealing with them.

 

What I will say is that your ideas would work in a group situation, because the Mesmer can apply the confusion and then their teammates would provide enough pressure to force the enemy players to use abilities to fight back, triggering the confusion stacks. However, in spvp it is quite common for Mesmers to be assigned to capture points on their own, and they get into a lot of 1v1 duels in the process. This has always been their forte and taking that away from them would be crippling in that format.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

> > Increasing the active damage on confusion means nothing if the target isn't forced into using any abilities to trigger it. If you put your changes into effect this would be a typical scenario in spvp. Someone on the enemy team is alone capping a point. The Mesmer pops up besides that enemy that puts on a ton of confusion. The enemy player knows there is no threat since the Mesmer is alone and just stands there until the confusion goes away. The Mesmer can't kill the enemy since their only damage comes from confusion, and the enemy player can't kill the Mesmer without using their abilities. The point stays uncapped since neither player is moving and it turns into a stalemate.

> >

> > I don't know about you but that sounds very boring to me.

> >

> > EDIT (I didn't get a chance to finish what I was planning to write earlier):

> > If they took away the passive ticks of damage from Confusion and Torment they would need to give Mesmers another damaging condition to apply pressure, or to give them spells that put on psychological pressure to force the target to use their abilities when they don't have to. For example, in GW1 there was a spell called "Illusion of Pain" which would deal damage over time to the target for 8 seconds. At the end of those 8 seconds the target was healed for a decent amount. You might think to yourself "what's the point in dealing damage if they are just going to get healed at the end of it?" The answer is simple: Psychological pressure. If you are in the middle of a fight and you suddenly see your health going down, your natural reaction is to use abilities to keep yourself alive. This plays into the confusion condition very well, as most players don't have the time to think about what is going on, and instead react on instinct. So they use their abilities to defend themselves only to get hit by the confusion damage.

>

> No because it would be countered by how mobile Mesmer is, so NO class would be able to stay on Mesmer 100% of the time without using movement abilities and it would be people seeing the risk. Do they continue to auto attack and not deal as much damage OR do they risk it and use abilities to try and get the Mesmer down? Again, their damage DOESNT come from JUST Confusion. Its Confusion AND Torment So they would be taking the increased Torment damage (due to lost passive damage), If they use condi clears then they take the damage from using it and with the covering conditions Mesmer has access to it wouldnt be 100% they would remove Torment and Confusion unless they are specific skills that remove multiple conditions.

>

> Please remember. This game is MORE than just about S/TPvP. That is just ONE mode. I also HIGHLY disagree with the whole thing you think they would need MORE damaging conditions, When they have access to Burning (Not high stacks but still good stacks) Torment (High stacks) and Confusion (High stacks) Look at the likes of Ele They have access to TWO conditions and they can apply ONE of those at a time and even then, its nowhere near as strong because they cant stay in the atttnements that give those 2 conditions. Same goes for Guard. Only burning, even though its high, high stacks someone brings decent condi removal and then it actually becomes a challenge for the Guard. Which it should be. Staff alone has access to Bleeding, Burning, Chill, Confusion, Cripple, Weakness and Vul that is PLENTY of access to conditions to cover the Torment and Confusion burst. Scepter/Torch would bring Blind, Burning, Confusion and Torment. Axe/Torch brings Bleeding, Blind, Burning, Confusion, Cripple and Torment. They have PLENTY of access to covering conditions so NO. They do not need more conditions.

>

> The problem is, Confusion and Torment do NOT work as they did when they were introduced. The passive damage contradicts their design of punishment. It SHOULD be Punishment if you do X rather than Punishment if you do X and Punishment if you dont do X

>

>

>

Yeah Mesmer is fairly mobile and with your 'changes' (be honest their nerfs because you're bad) they're just a pretty purple spark flitting around doing nothing since as Mist pointed out you can simply stand there while the conditions that no longer have any pressure tick off and still AA. Mobility != pressure. Nobody is going to have that imaginary dilemma between AA or use abilities. It's a surefire win versus hitting yourself in the face because maybe it'll work. Again why bother with condi clears for neutered conditions that require player input to actually do anything. Are you seriously going to argue for Mesmer burning, 3 stacks on a long cooldown. Nobody should be taking you seriously after this remark. Torment is only applied en masse if you don't bother cleaving the clones and let them finish their auto attack chain, don't dodge Axe 2, trigger the counterattack from Scepter 2, you eat a traited 3 clone shatter and the effect from the mesmer because you felt like taking a lot of damage. Confusion is the only condition you actually have a leg to stand on since the application is actually very very high and is a little more difficult to avoid. Staff cover conditions are random, literally every non vulnerability one is random and on a long cooldown and are signaled by, the glowing aura around the mesmer, the AoE you can just walk out of.

 

You are so bad at manipulating facts it's laughable.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> Yeah Mesmer is fairly mobile and with your 'changes' (be honest their nerfs because you're bad) they're just a pretty purple spark flitting around doing nothing since as Mist pointed out you can simply stand there while the conditions that no longer have any pressure tick off and still AA. Mobility != pressure. Nobody is going to have that imaginary dilemma between AA or use abilities. It's a surefire win versus hitting yourself in the face because maybe it'll work. Again why bother with condi clears for neutered conditions that require player input to actually do anything. Are you seriously going to argue for Mesmer burning, 3 stacks on a long cooldown. Nobody should be taking you seriously after this remark. Torment is only applied en masse if you don't bother cleaving the clones and let them finish their auto attack chain, don't dodge Axe 2, trigger the counterattack from Scepter 2, you eat a traited 3 clone shatter and the effect from the mesmer because you felt like taking a lot of damage. Confusion is the only condition you actually have a leg to stand on since the application is actually very very high and is a little more difficult to avoid. Staff cover conditions are random, literally every non vulnerability one is random and on a long cooldown and are signaled by, the glowing aura around the mesmer, the AoE you can just walk out of.

>

> You are so bad at manipulating facts it's laughable.

 

Would that mean that Anet are abd as well? Seeing as how removing the passive damage would actually put it back to the way it was before they got hugely buffed due to how poor they were in PvE without ever thinking about how broken they would become in PvP. Also, for the record Its quite funny you say that im bad, would you actually EVER admit that Mesmer is without a doubt broken. There is NO way they wont be nerfed when the January update happens. The thing you SHOULD be worrying about is just how much they nerf them. Because lets face it, Anet doesnt do balanced nerfs. You have a 50% chance that it will be a tiny nerf that will do very little OR a 50% chance that it will be HUGE over nerf that will gut the class. This is how Anet works.

 

So you mean, them standing still, able to be easily targeted for your shatters, AoE and everything would be a bad thing? Well. I guess for those that rely 100% on the conditions to do the work, this would be seen as a bad thing. For those that actually know how to play. I think they would enjoy actually needing to actually do more than wait for conditions to kill someone as they teleport and stealth around.

 

For the same fact that if they actually WANT to do something, they would either have to remove the conditions or stand there and die. Remember, all the torment application as well so unless they just stand there and do nothing at all (which they would still die due to being a dummy target) they would ahve to MOVE to get to you, they would have to use abilities to actually threaten you, very little in terms of auto attack is really that threatening, minus Warrior. So its not as if they would stand in one place auto attack you and win (unless you're REALLY bad) they would have NO choice but to move. They would have no choice but to use abilities as they aint going to lock you down, so they would have to use CC, condi clears or whatever.

 

Torment is applied by ranged and melee auto attacks (Axe and Scepter) it is also applied by Shatters, it is also applied by ranged attacks and melee attacks (Axe and Scepter) It is VERY easy to get 10+ stacks on people. I remember when i could EASILY get 15-20 stacks on people on my own that is without being Mirage. What was on my Hybrid Chrono build. Seeing 10k+ Confusing Images was just so good.

 

Sorry to break it to you, i am going to guess that you're Condi. You aren't winning because you are good. Condi Mesmer is just broken. The problem is, most of the Mesmers you see now will all ditch the class and specs the moment it because harder to faceroll kill people. You're more than welcome to stick to the "oh they are bad because they lost" idea. You win because Mesmer is by FAR the best 1 Vs 1 Condi spec. Bar none.

 

 

[dontlook.1823]

Going to go ahead an make a blanket statement. Mesmer is in a really funny spot. The last thing it needs is nerfs to be completely honest. Some complaints about GS burst and Condi burst. My guess? In the past Anet lowered the Necro's ability to stack bleeds in Spvp changing their bleeds from burst to sustained. Based off this, my educated guess is that they are going to do the same to Mesmer in Spvp. Lowering the confusion stacks by just a bit to change this from burst to sustained damage. Mind you this change was split from PvE (sigh of relief).

 

As for the GS burst. I'm not quite sure why this is even being brought to the Mesmer community as it is a One-trick pony and very easily countered. Never in the history of this game has a competitive team taken a Zerker/Marauder Mesmer for the purpose that has always fit the thief so well. I've been playing since the game came out and I've never ever, ever seen a top team with a Zerk Mantra Mesmer. More or less, Shatter Mesmer is the only thing that comes close to a top spot and even then one of their only perks to the team was Portal. Even the Lord Helseth was forced to go Cele Ele several seasons ago do to the viability of Power Mesmer. And honestly? It hasn't changed too much since the addition of Chronomancer. It still has bleeding weaknesses and is competing with the Top dog of all top dog burst professions in the game, thief.

 

But I honestly don't like guessing whats going to happen. More or less, I like to see what happens and adapt accordingly. With of course high hopes here and there. Power buffs, Ayeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. B)