Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"bluri.2653" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"bluri.2653" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > If a Druid had any less sustain or mobility than it has now, it wouldn't be viable anymore amongst the stronger metas. It would lose its strength at the 1 thing it is good at, being a side node monkey. > > > > > > > > > > Druids already lose nodes to good Mirages 1v1, eventually. Druids lose nodes to good Spellbreakers, eventually. Druids are pushed off nodes by Scourges immediately, just like any other class. Druids are good at 1v2ing against physical based specs, winning 1v1s against everything except Mirage/Spellbreaker "they can kill a Scourge in time", as they delay a node decap and draw numbers. > > > > > > > > > > If you nerfed anything at all on Druid and I mean anything, you won't be seeing Druid players anymore and you'll be seeing a lot more Spellbreakers. Choose your poison wisely. > > > > > > > > Wrong. Druid > Mirage. Druid stalemates and even in some scenarios beat spellbreakers (see UGO tournament where Lefrere beats Obindo, both obviously top tier on Druid/Spellbreaker) You can literally run around the node vs a spellbreaker and just use regen/troll urgent to sustain urself vs a SB to hold a cap, you don't even have to astral lol > > > > > > > > The only class on paper that can actually force a druid to lose it's cap is a scourge and in reality that will never happen in a conquest game unless enemy team legit has zero clue about rotations or anything really. > > > > > > > > I've also heard from various exceptional druids that they beat scourge as well so I might even be wrong in that regard. So no literally everything you said is false > > > > > > You're talking about a single isolated instance concerning a Druid winning vs a Mirage. And a Druid vs Spellbreaker is arguably at disadvantage concerning stalling a decap or full capping, kind of depends on who is the better player in the end. But either way, what I said is true in 95% of other encounters and everyone reading this thread who does not use the multi tool hack program or minion, knows what I mean when I say: > > > * Druids stalemate a Spellbreaker but usually, the Spellbreaker gets the upper hand and the Druid has to peel briefly for a regroup and in that time the node gets decapped. > > > * Druids just lose to Mirages in time. The condi DPS pressure, when distributed in smaller more consistent DPS application rather than large bursting, is unable to be mitigated due to Druid only have 2 full bar condi cleanses rather than many smaller ones that happen more frequently. In the end, you can't dodge roll everything and the Mirage pressure will out DPS the Druid's heal. > > > > > > Judging from the last two 1v1 tournaments we ran in NA, which did involve top players, there is a reason why rules were put in to ban Mirage as a specialization selection. It is not slightly dominant in 1v1, it is clearly dominant in 1v1s. This was decided from much community response, including top players. Druid is the top pick when Mirage is banned though. > > > > > > Hey not saying a Druid cannot beat a Mirage, I do it often myself. But in general, a very good Mirage will win against a very good Druid 90% of engagements. > > > > > > > Misha loses to any good druid in a 1v1 scenario, you have lower sustain than a chrono and your damage as a mirage is burst which is easily cleansed by a druid. So no, you are mistaken. I'll happily have misha duel any druid for you and it will show you the same outcome. Just look at our monthlies when he 1v1 any decent druid he will have to leave with portal. > > > > You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Spellbreaker does no kitten pressure to druid: > > > > > > > > > > > > incredible regrouping he had to do. This is also for your information PRE NERF spellbreaker when it was on crack > > > > Now please do me a favour and stop giving false information when you have no clue what ur talking about > > In a strict 1v1 build, Mirage beats Druid hands down. Druids only have 2 full condi cleanses. Once those are used, there is generally a 20-30 second window in which our condi removal is weakened (only cleansing 1-2 at a time). All a Mirage has to do is keep sustained condi pressure on a Druid and he'll be forced to retreat or die. Not to mention longbow is completely useless against a well played Mirage and its almost impossible to keep pressure with s/wh without eating massive amounts of conditions in return. > > As for Spellbreaker vs. Druid, this is a stalemate. A Spellbreaker definitely has an easier time killing a Druid if he messes up. However, a Druid will struggle to out damage a Spellbreaker's sustain. Generally, this fight only ends when someone from either team rotates for the +1. @"bluri.2653" Couple things: 1. What build was the Druid running that beat Misha? I am talking about traditional Bunker Druids. There are alterations that could be made to traditional Druid specs that would allow an excellent Druid much better chances against specifically Mirage but it would be a risk vs. the other metas. If Misha was fighting a normal Bunker Druid spec, Misha needs to learn how to fight Bunker Druids. Mirages win against traditional Bunker Druids, unless the Druid is just a lot better of a player than the Mirage. 2. That video you posted isn't even a conquest match. The Druid was slightly off point many times during that video and it doesn't even show the outcome of the 1v1. How do we know the Druid didn't eventually lose? If it were a conquest match he would have been decapped. Furthermore, that Spellbreaker isn't the greatest.. He is chasing that Druid around in long lines instead of standing in the middle of the node and waiting for the Druid, which if it was a conquest match, is where the Druid would have to be or he would be wasting time. I've never seen a Spellbreaker allow himself to be kited so easily, to be perfectly honest. But before you get all mecca on me, I play in the 1600-1700 range "without using multi hack tool or match manipulation tactics" and I have 11,000 something games played. I main Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast specs and in my own personal experience and experience of watching others, Mirages beat Druids man. You can use Misha as an argument all you want but the truth is that one player during that one instance, does not represent the voice of all Mirage vs. Druid experiences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corey.6451 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"bluri.2653" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"bluri.2653" said: > > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > If a Druid had any less sustain or mobility than it has now, it wouldn't be viable anymore amongst the stronger metas. It would lose its strength at the 1 thing it is good at, being a side node monkey. > > > > > > > > > > > > Druids already lose nodes to good Mirages 1v1, eventually. Druids lose nodes to good Spellbreakers, eventually. Druids are pushed off nodes by Scourges immediately, just like any other class. Druids are good at 1v2ing against physical based specs, winning 1v1s against everything except Mirage/Spellbreaker "they can kill a Scourge in time", as they delay a node decap and draw numbers. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you nerfed anything at all on Druid and I mean anything, you won't be seeing Druid players anymore and you'll be seeing a lot more Spellbreakers. Choose your poison wisely. > > > > > > > > > > Wrong. Druid > Mirage. Druid stalemates and even in some scenarios beat spellbreakers (see UGO tournament where Lefrere beats Obindo, both obviously top tier on Druid/Spellbreaker) You can literally run around the node vs a spellbreaker and just use regen/troll urgent to sustain urself vs a SB to hold a cap, you don't even have to astral lol > > > > > > > > > > The only class on paper that can actually force a druid to lose it's cap is a scourge and in reality that will never happen in a conquest game unless enemy team legit has zero clue about rotations or anything really. > > > > > > > > > > I've also heard from various exceptional druids that they beat scourge as well so I might even be wrong in that regard. So no literally everything you said is false > > > > > > > > You're talking about a single isolated instance concerning a Druid winning vs a Mirage. And a Druid vs Spellbreaker is arguably at disadvantage concerning stalling a decap or full capping, kind of depends on who is the better player in the end. But either way, what I said is true in 95% of other encounters and everyone reading this thread who does not use the multi tool hack program or minion, knows what I mean when I say: > > > > * Druids stalemate a Spellbreaker but usually, the Spellbreaker gets the upper hand and the Druid has to peel briefly for a regroup and in that time the node gets decapped. > > > > * Druids just lose to Mirages in time. The condi DPS pressure, when distributed in smaller more consistent DPS application rather than large bursting, is unable to be mitigated due to Druid only have 2 full bar condi cleanses rather than many smaller ones that happen more frequently. In the end, you can't dodge roll everything and the Mirage pressure will out DPS the Druid's heal. > > > > > > > > Judging from the last two 1v1 tournaments we ran in NA, which did involve top players, there is a reason why rules were put in to ban Mirage as a specialization selection. It is not slightly dominant in 1v1, it is clearly dominant in 1v1s. This was decided from much community response, including top players. Druid is the top pick when Mirage is banned though. > > > > > > > > Hey not saying a Druid cannot beat a Mirage, I do it often myself. But in general, a very good Mirage will win against a very good Druid 90% of engagements. > > > > > > > > > > Misha loses to any good druid in a 1v1 scenario, you have lower sustain than a chrono and your damage as a mirage is burst which is easily cleansed by a druid. So no, you are mistaken. I'll happily have misha duel any druid for you and it will show you the same outcome. Just look at our monthlies when he 1v1 any decent druid he will have to leave with portal. > > > > > > You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Spellbreaker does no kitten pressure to druid: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > incredible regrouping he had to do. This is also for your information PRE NERF spellbreaker when it was on crack > > > > > > Now please do me a favour and stop giving false information when you have no clue what ur talking about > > > > In a strict 1v1 build, Mirage beats Druid hands down. Druids only have 2 full condi cleanses. Once those are used, there is generally a 20-30 second window in which our condi removal is weakened (only cleansing 1-2 at a time). All a Mirage has to do is keep sustained condi pressure on a Druid and he'll be forced to retreat or die. Not to mention longbow is completely useless against a well played Mirage and its almost impossible to keep pressure with s/wh without eating massive amounts of conditions in return. > > > > As for Spellbreaker vs. Druid, this is a stalemate. A Spellbreaker definitely has an easier time killing a Druid if he messes up. However, a Druid will struggle to out damage a Spellbreaker's sustain. Generally, this fight only ends when someone from either team rotates for the +1. > > @"bluri.2653" Couple things: > > 1. What build was the Druid running that beat Misha? I am talking about traditional Bunker Druids. There are alterations that could be made to traditional Druid specs that would allow an excellent Druid much better chances against specifically Mirage but it would be a risk vs. the other metas. If Misha was fighting a normal Bunker Druid spec, Misha needs to learn how to fight Bunker Druids. Mirages win against traditional Bunker Druids, unless the Druid is just a lot better of a player than the Mirage. > 2. That video you posted isn't even a conquest match. The Druid was slightly off point many times during that video and it doesn't even show the outcome of the 1v1. How do we know the Druid didn't eventually lose? If it were a conquest match he would have been decapped. Furthermore, that Spellbreaker isn't the greatest.. He is chasing that Druid around in long lines instead of standing in the middle of the node and waiting for the Druid, which if it was a conquest match, is where the Druid would have to be or he would be wasting time. > > But before you get all mecca on me, I play in the 1600-1700 range "without using multi hack tool or match manipulation tactics" and I have 11,000 something games played. I main Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast specs and in my own personal experience and experience of watching others, Mirages beat Druids man. You can use Misha as an argument all you want but the truth is that one player during that one instance, does not represent the voice of all Mirages & Druids, concerning the shut down of a conversation discussing balance. > I play druid with 13k game. Bounce around 1700-1900. I can tell you that he is right about druid, and it is the meta S tier druid. Im not a fanboy, i stop watching the guy, because he always look down on unexperience player, in a way you can say i dislike the guy now. If you lose to a mirage with all that heal and clense it is a l2p problem. You may have the idea of mirage being the best 1v1 from the 1v1 tournament, that tournament has a diff rule and amulet restriction, that is why mirage is the best 1v1 for that tournament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 W/E you say boss. I just don't see it happening, even in ATs when we are against top players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corey.6451 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > W/E you say boss. I just don't see it happening, even in ATs when we are against top players. If you know the mirage attack pattern you will know how to counter. That is why there is a different skill cap from legend and above, maybe abit lower. Because they know and atleast have some understanding of all the skills from all other classes. And it does happen all the time when you see 2 good player play meta mirage and meta druid. Nothing can kill the meta druid if youre good enough, pretty much a well known fact in legend devision. And i hope both mirage and meta druid get nerf. Not to a point where it being useless, but to a healthy balance state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 > @"corey.6451" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > W/E you say boss. I just don't see it happening, even in ATs when we are against top players. > > If you know the mirage attack pattern you will know how to counter. That is why there is a different skill cap from legend and above, maybe abit lower. Because they know and atleast have some understanding of all the skills from all other classes. And it does happen all the time when you see 2 good player play meta mirage and meta druid. Nothing can kill the meta druid if youre good enough, pretty much a well known fact in legend devision. > > And i hope both mirage and meta druid get nerf. Not to a point where it being useless, but to a healthy balance state. It's not about killing the Druid. A Mirage has more than enough condition pressure to force the Druid to retreat if they mess up. A Mirage will win the 1v1 not only because the Druid does not have enough counter-pressure, but because constant stealthing from CA will force the point to remain decapped until a teammate rotates to help. Mirages are hands down the best 1v1 spec at the moment. No other class has that much uptime of invulnerability and sustain coupled with _that_ much condition pressure. The last time this happened was during the first few months HoT came out. Druid was so strong that I was literally able to 1v7 in WvW in exotic gear and consistently win 1v3s and hold 1v4s in high platinum/legendary division. Now, I'm not saying Mirages can do the same, but the level of survivability they have with the amount of damage they can also put out is why an extremely well played Mirage should not _ever_ lose a 1v1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corey.6451 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"corey.6451" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > W/E you say boss. I just don't see it happening, even in ATs when we are against top players. > > > > If you know the mirage attack pattern you will know how to counter. That is why there is a different skill cap from legend and above, maybe abit lower. Because they know and atleast have some understanding of all the skills from all other classes. And it does happen all the time when you see 2 good player play meta mirage and meta druid. Nothing can kill the meta druid if youre good enough, pretty much a well known fact in legend devision. > > > > And i hope both mirage and meta druid get nerf. Not to a point where it being useless, but to a healthy balance state. > > It's not about killing the Druid. A Mirage has more than enough condition pressure to force the Druid to retreat if they mess up. > > A Mirage will win the 1v1 not only because the Druid does not have enough counter-pressure, but because constant stealthing from CA will force the point to remain decapped until a teammate rotates to help. > > Mirages are hands down the best 1v1 spec at the moment. No other class has that much uptime of invulnerability and sustain coupled with _that_ much condition pressure. The last time this happened was during the first few months HoT came out. Druid was so strong that I was literally able to 1v7 in WvW in exotic gear and consistently win 1v3s and hold 1v4s in high platinum/legendary division. Now, I'm not saying Mirages can do the same, but the level of survivability they have with the amount of damage they can also put out is why an extremely well played Mirage should not _ever_ lose a 1v1. Clearly bias if you think mirage has ton of invuln. They only have 1 and that is from the core mechanic. And there is a trick to not get decap from stealth, just use warhorn 4 before go into ca form. I bet you still dont know all of the advance trick for ranger. And for mirage. They cant tank damage or have alot of healing, their survival is base on mobility, and the cap point circle is too small for that, so they most likely spend most of the time out side of the circle. Just play mirage, then you will understand. Im not saying mirage is ok atm in any mean. It is second in 1v1, behind druid S tier meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowpass.4236 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 > @"corey.6451" said: > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > @"corey.6451" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > W/E you say boss. I just don't see it happening, even in ATs when we are against top players. > > > > > > If you know the mirage attack pattern you will know how to counter. That is why there is a different skill cap from legend and above, maybe abit lower. Because they know and atleast have some understanding of all the skills from all other classes. And it does happen all the time when you see 2 good player play meta mirage and meta druid. Nothing can kill the meta druid if youre good enough, pretty much a well known fact in legend devision. > > > > > > And i hope both mirage and meta druid get nerf. Not to a point where it being useless, but to a healthy balance state. > > > > It's not about killing the Druid. A Mirage has more than enough condition pressure to force the Druid to retreat if they mess up. > > > > A Mirage will win the 1v1 not only because the Druid does not have enough counter-pressure, but because constant stealthing from CA will force the point to remain decapped until a teammate rotates to help. > > > > Mirages are hands down the best 1v1 spec at the moment. No other class has that much uptime of invulnerability and sustain coupled with _that_ much condition pressure. The last time this happened was during the first few months HoT came out. Druid was so strong that I was literally able to 1v7 in WvW in exotic gear and consistently win 1v3s and hold 1v4s in high platinum/legendary division. Now, I'm not saying Mirages can do the same, but the level of survivability they have with the amount of damage they can also put out is why an extremely well played Mirage should not _ever_ lose a 1v1. > > Clearly bias if you think mirage has ton of invuln. They only have 1 and that is from the core mechanic. > > And there is a trick to not get decap from stealth, just use warhorn 4 before go into ca form. I bet you still dont know all of the advance trick for ranger. > > And for mirage. They cant tank damage or have alot of healing, their survival is base on mobility, and the cap point circle is too small for that, so they most likely spend most of the time out side of the circle. > > Just play mirage, then you will understand. Im not saying mirage is ok atm in any mean. It is second in 1v1, behind druid S tier meta. Mirage's can dodge like 5 or 6 times in a row and walk through Mirage Mirrors fairly often to gain even more Mirage Cloak. Not to mention weapon skills and other utilities. I've also been 1750-1800+ every single season and I led an all ranger guild of over 250+ rangers for several years. I know the tricks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corey.6451 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > @"corey.6451" said: > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said: > > > > @"corey.6451" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > W/E you say boss. I just don't see it happening, even in ATs when we are against top players. > > > > > > > > If you know the mirage attack pattern you will know how to counter. That is why there is a different skill cap from legend and above, maybe abit lower. Because they know and atleast have some understanding of all the skills from all other classes. And it does happen all the time when you see 2 good player play meta mirage and meta druid. Nothing can kill the meta druid if youre good enough, pretty much a well known fact in legend devision. > > > > > > > > And i hope both mirage and meta druid get nerf. Not to a point where it being useless, but to a healthy balance state. > > > > > > It's not about killing the Druid. A Mirage has more than enough condition pressure to force the Druid to retreat if they mess up. > > > > > > A Mirage will win the 1v1 not only because the Druid does not have enough counter-pressure, but because constant stealthing from CA will force the point to remain decapped until a teammate rotates to help. > > > > > > Mirages are hands down the best 1v1 spec at the moment. No other class has that much uptime of invulnerability and sustain coupled with _that_ much condition pressure. The last time this happened was during the first few months HoT came out. Druid was so strong that I was literally able to 1v7 in WvW in exotic gear and consistently win 1v3s and hold 1v4s in high platinum/legendary division. Now, I'm not saying Mirages can do the same, but the level of survivability they have with the amount of damage they can also put out is why an extremely well played Mirage should not _ever_ lose a 1v1. > > > > Clearly bias if you think mirage has ton of invuln. They only have 1 and that is from the core mechanic. > > > > And there is a trick to not get decap from stealth, just use warhorn 4 before go into ca form. I bet you still dont know all of the advance trick for ranger. > > > > And for mirage. They cant tank damage or have alot of healing, their survival is base on mobility, and the cap point circle is too small for that, so they most likely spend most of the time out side of the circle. > > > > Just play mirage, then you will understand. Im not saying mirage is ok atm in any mean. It is second in 1v1, behind druid S tier meta. > > Mirage's can dodge like 5 or 6 times in a row and walk through Mirage Mirrors fairly often to gain even more Mirage Cloak. Not to mention weapon skills and other utilities. > > I've also been 1750-1800+ every single season and I led an all ranger guild of over 250+ rangers for several years. I know the tricks. Nope. Mirage can dodge 2 time in a row just like every other classes, and walk through mirrors 2-3 time if you spam it one after another then they have sword 2 and f4(mirage cloak only last for 1 second). The other dodge is from sigil in which any class can use. You cant really count the default dodge bar, because every class has them. So realistic invuln uptime is 3 second from mirage mechanic, and this is a stress realistic because it isnt instantly available. And the mirage mirror is from desert distortion(illusion shattered by distortion will became mirage mirror) 50 second cool down on this btw, and signet of illusion is on a 60s cool down this reset mesmer F skills. Mirage is strong but not enough to kill druid. Atm these 2 are just way too high up in effectiveness compare to the next best 1v1 class that is the warrior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corey.6451 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 I think most people dont notice that druid meta is so strong, is because we dont kill fast, we only grind people down slowly with the permanent poison. It is a boring meta but it is what it is. And if they nerf mirage and not the meta druid, i bet you any money that more people will notice it because the gap between them will be widen between them, this will make more people notice. Same goes with mirage, if they nerf druid and not mirage, ill riot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluri.2653 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 > @"corey.6451" said: > I think most people dont notice that druid meta is so strong, is because we dont kill fast, we only grind people down slowly with the permanent poison. It is a boring meta but it is what it is. And if they nerf mirage and not the meta druid, i bet you any money that more people will notice it because the gap between them will be widen between them, this will make more people notice. Same goes with mirage, if they nerf druid and not mirage, ill riot. They clearly dont know how to fight a mirage if they think a druid loses vs it. Dw let them believe it if they want but its wrong, i could just in theory duel misha on my 1 week druid to show it. And trevor that war is literally one of the best wars in the game. You are just clueless, but thanks for proving it even further Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 > @"Vag.5682" said: > Agree with most points. However scourge nerf shouldn't be in flat damage but rather in corruption , f2 should have a cap. Overall scourge damage is very low compare to dps classes, also a damage nerf will require a buff in survivability or mobility. Please note that "other dps classes" don't apply the massive amounts of debuffs that Scourge does. Necro has traditionally been on the low end in terms of damage with the compensation being necro having massive amounts of debuff power. Scourge however broke this rule by offering above average damage while retaining all of necro's mass debuff capabilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shirlias.8104 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Scourge needs to be treaty like revenant's staff. It's a mostly support role, so it shouldn't have that coefficient in terms of damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 > @"bluri.2653" said: > > @"corey.6451" said: > > I think most people dont notice that druid meta is so strong, is because we dont kill fast, we only grind people down slowly with the permanent poison. It is a boring meta but it is what it is. And if they nerf mirage and not the meta druid, i bet you any money that more people will notice it because the gap between them will be widen between them, this will make more people notice. Same goes with mirage, if they nerf druid and not mirage, ill riot. > > They clearly dont know how to fight a mirage if they think a druid loses vs it. Dw let them believe it if they want but its wrong, i could just in theory duel misha on my 1 week druid to show it. > > And trevor that war is literally one of the best wars in the game. You are just clueless, but thanks for proving it even further mm hrm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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