Scourge as DPS [Theorycrafting]

[Zefiris.8297]

Okay, so we now know that Scourge isn't supposed to be a supportclass, and offers nothing to a group (that groups actually want and can't get better elsewhere) other than condition cleansing. Which can be useful sometimes, I give you that.

 

But let's drop all of that, and focus completely and solely on damage. Perhaps we can salvage this class. But how? I thought about it, and this is my conclusion:

 

* Build is 2-2-2, Curses 1-1-3 and Reaping 1-2-3 [For Vital persistance. Dhuumfire ain't getting much use here]

* Pure Vipers lets us max Torment, Bleeding and Burning duration if using runes of tormenting, sigil of malice, and sigil of smoldering.

* We can maintain one shade. Any more is not possible even at perma alacrity, so trying is pointless. We only use more shades when anticipating spawns

* If we stick to the boring scepter-only playstyle, we can at least spam Desert Shroud on Cooldown

* We use Shadow Fiend for Life Force

* We use Blood is Power -> Deathly Swarm; Harrowing Wave, Oppressive Collapse, Grasping Dead, Feast of Corruption, Blood Curse and Plaguelands more or less on cooldown

* We fill the rest with ...autoattacking :/

* Some barrier falls out as collateral, yay. Will be gone in an instant, though.

 

Mapping out the conditions gets me about 25k DPS or so with fairly realistic skill usages, food and buffs (alacrity, lots of quickness, 25 might). Realistic DPS, not benchmark DPS. Could probably go higher than that.

 

Low effort, very little support, mainly autoattack and desert shroud pulses. Drops everything the scourge is about according to the designers, seems fairly boring, but might at least work in DPS. Could possibly be the easiest rotation in the game, even. Not quite sure this is what we should be happy to get, but it might at least not be worthless _in effect_.

 

Rotation:

Spam stuff on cooldown, fill up with autoattacks. Feast of Corruption has absolute priority, it's more DPS than Bood is Power and only dwarfed by Desert Shroud. Other Shade abilities get used when Life Force fills up enough to make it safe - one must always have a buffer to use Desert Shroud on CD.

 

 

Yeah, I actually think ...this... could be good enough damage to be usable in pure numbers, it's certainly looking better than reaper even now, but it seems just so mindless when comparing it to Shrould -> 5 -> 4 positioning and switching between GS and Scepter/Dagger. People say reaper dps is easy, but this would be so, so much easier to play.

 

Anyone got a better idea? Come on, someone got to!

[Cbomb.4310]

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNAr/YnE9Cd3gV3AO9C83gFjBjaJEFqV6t15aeN6nFAOAA-jxhAQBVb/BCpXwmKBho6PgU5H3eAAA4kAQKgF1bB-e I wanted to try and use the torment sigil too so I popped on giver weps to get more expertise. Maybe the extra vit would help with lifeforce gen? doubt it but worth a passing thought...

 

I honestly dont understand why you can even stack shades to 3. They gave a condi offhand weapon, and our only condi mainhand dosnt create enough lifeforce to use the class mechanics that go with it? And If its supposed to be a support build, wheres our support weapon that generates lifeforce, staff? lol

 

The reaper condi 'meta' build dosnt even feel intentional (with the power based gs in the chillfields). Just some unpractical thing that I doubt a dev was actually intelligent enough to plan out working in most real pve scenarios.

 

edit: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQNAr/YnE9Cd3gV3AO9C83gFjBL6nFAOAULhoQtSvtOXzrA-jBiAQBdZ5B1tDA3eAA2UJIEV/BAnEAAqXAkK/IFwi6tA-e that'll prolly be what we actually use though. Lots of condi classes using 2/4 and/or malice now after food changes. Kinda have to wonder if devs knew that was coming or not either.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Isn't Condition Reaper about 30k DPS in practice?

[Maxzero.4032]

 

Was chatting with some guy on reddit and he made this Scourge spreadsheet:

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSuT5cXWsPKhXydKpmsaXHFEmNt02uNDvc6A5m_ebsYHQkSMAl1syfx-08Ype6JoZNOyCL2Cl30EO5-/pubhtml?gid=1783368451&single=true

 

With only 1 Shade up and only using F1 and F5 Scourge can maintain 33k or so DPS.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Assuming Dhuumfire hasn't had a nerfed interaction with F5, at least.

 

I didn't check, but did you remember that offhand skills won't happen more than once every 20 seconds?

[Exqq.7451]

> @Maxzero.4032 said:

>

> Was chatting with some guy on reddit and he made this Scourge spreadsheet:

>

> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSuT5cXWsPKhXydKpmsaXHFEmNt02uNDvc6A5m_ebsYHQkSMAl1syfx-08Ype6JoZNOyCL2Cl30EO5-/pubhtml?gid=1783368451&single=true

>

> With only 1 Shade up and only using F1 and F5 Scourge can maintain 33k or so DPS.

 

If true, this does not seem as sky is falling as people are saying.

[ZhouX.8742]

> @Exqq.7451 said:

> > @Maxzero.4032 said:

> >

> > Was chatting with some guy on reddit and he made this Scourge spreadsheet:

> >

> > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSuT5cXWsPKhXydKpmsaXHFEmNt02uNDvc6A5m_ebsYHQkSMAl1syfx-08Ype6JoZNOyCL2Cl30EO5-/pubhtml?gid=1783368451&single=true

> >

> > With only 1 Shade up and only using F1 and F5 Scourge can maintain 33k or so DPS.

>

> If true, this does not seem as sky is falling as people are saying.

 

Most necro players are bad, so the sky will always be falling in this sub-forum. Only good ones like Noscoc will dominate PvP (even won the last monthly AT in PvP) and usually never use the forums. Coincidence?

[Zefiris.8297]

> @ZhouX.8742 said:

> > @Exqq.7451 said:

> > > @Maxzero.4032 said:

> > >

> > > Was chatting with some guy on reddit and he made this Scourge spreadsheet:

> > >

> > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSuT5cXWsPKhXydKpmsaXHFEmNt02uNDvc6A5m_ebsYHQkSMAl1syfx-08Ype6JoZNOyCL2Cl30EO5-/pubhtml?gid=1783368451&single=true

 

Hm, this spreadsheet has a pretty similar idea. I forgot GOTL and Frost spirit in my calculations as well, whoops.

I'm dubious if this is actually fun, though - it seems the most braindead rotation around.

 

> > > With only 1 Shade up and only using F1 and F5 Scourge can maintain 33k or so DPS.

> >

> > If true, this does not seem as sky is falling as people are saying.

>

> Most necro players are bad, so the sky will always be falling in this sub-forum. Only good ones like Noscoc will dominate PvP (even won the last monthly AT in PvP) and usually never use the forums. Coincidence?

 

The complaints were never about PVP, though. You probably need to improve that reading skill a bit ;)

 

>Isn't Condition Reaper about 30k DPS in practice?

 

No, ignore benchmarks and look at the actual logs instead (Here: https://www.gw2raidar.com/). There's a huge difference between both, because a golem is not a realistic enemy to fight. A real fight has you deal with mechanics, move, use a support skill, and a whole lot of other things going on that break a pure rotation.

 

Benchmarks are rotations under ideal conditions. But that is all they are.

[Zefiris.8297]

This might actually be a thing.

 

Crying shame about the support though.

[Maxzero.4032]

> @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > @ZhouX.8742 said:

> > > @Exqq.7451 said:

> > > > @Maxzero.4032 said:

> > > >

> > > > Was chatting with some guy on reddit and he made this Scourge spreadsheet:

> > > >

> > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSuT5cXWsPKhXydKpmsaXHFEmNt02uNDvc6A5m_ebsYHQkSMAl1syfx-08Ype6JoZNOyCL2Cl30EO5-/pubhtml?gid=1783368451&single=true

>

> Hm, this spreadsheet has a pretty similar idea. I forgot GOTL and Frost spirit in my calculations as well, whoops.

> I'm dubious if this is actually fun, though - it seems the most braindead rotation around.

>

> > > > With only 1 Shade up and only using F1 and F5 Scourge can maintain 33k or so DPS.

> > >

> > > If true, this does not seem as sky is falling as people are saying.

> >

> > Most necro players are bad, so the sky will always be falling in this sub-forum. Only good ones like Noscoc will dominate PvP (even won the last monthly AT in PvP) and usually never use the forums. Coincidence?

>

> The complaints were never about PVP, though. You probably need to improve that reading skill a bit ;)

>

> >Isn't Condition Reaper about 30k DPS in practice?

>

> No, ignore benchmarks and look at the actual logs instead (Here: https://www.gw2raidar.com/). There's a huge difference between both, because a golem is not a realistic enemy to fight. A real fight has you deal with mechanics, move, use a support skill, and a whole lot of other things going on that break a pure rotation.

>

> Benchmarks are rotations under ideal conditions. But that is all they are.

 

It is a braindead rotation but sometimes in raids thats a good thing.

 

At this point I would just take a viable build and worry about fun later.

[Zefiris.8297]

Well, it sure seems actually viable if you only care for damage. Much squishier than reaper, but 30k+ is in the cards for benchmarks (so we're likely talking the usual 20k-25k in realistic conditions).

 

It's a shame for me, since I wanted the support they originally discussed, but that just seems dead. But at least the Damage seems to be there.

[raul.7859]

another qqpost

[Zefiris.8297]

> @raul.7859 said:

> another qqpost

 

Yep, a post about us as pretty neat DPS, with the only complaint being "the rotation is boring" is indeed qqing.

[Maxzero.4032]

Hopefully that 34-5k is the new standard benchmark and we don't have some crazy power creep. Ele is doing dumb things with large hitboxes but Condi Ranger seems around that mark and condi Warrior seem upset about some nerf. So metawise it seems okay.

[Aizenfaust.2708]

And in other part of the forum we have Weaver with blazing 48k dps..

[Kam.4092]

> @Aizenfaust.2708 said:

> And in other part of the forum we have Weaver with blazing 48k dps..

Which is absurdly abused on a large hit box, and it will be nerfed. So it's just a big number atm.

 

[Nyel.1843]

> @Aizenfaust.2708 said:

> And in other part of the forum we have Weaver with blazing 48k dps..

 

But they're still crying. How's that even possible?

[Kam.4092]

> @Nyel.1843 said:

> > @Aizenfaust.2708 said:

> > And in other part of the forum we have Weaver with blazing 48k dps..

>

> But they're still crying. How's that even possible?

 

Probably cause the build uses Staff and not their cool new Sword. I mean I'd be upset if our Torch sucked.

 

[Zefiris.8297]

> @Kam.4092 said:

> > @Nyel.1843 said:

> > > @Aizenfaust.2708 said:

> > > And in other part of the forum we have Weaver with blazing 48k dps..

> >

> > But they're still crying. How's that even possible?

>

> Probably cause the build uses Staff and not their cool new Sword. I mean I'd be upset if our Torch sucked.

 

I would say that 50% of our torch sucked. I'd not even use it if they hadn't given it life force. Oppressive collapse just seems meh.

 

[Kam.4092]

> @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > @Kam.4092 said:

> > > @Nyel.1843 said:

> > > > @Aizenfaust.2708 said:

> > > > And in other part of the forum we have Weaver with blazing 48k dps..

> > >

> > > But they're still crying. How's that even possible?

> >

> > Probably cause the build uses Staff and not their cool new Sword. I mean I'd be upset if our Torch sucked.

>

> I would say that 50% of our torch sucked. I'd not even use it if they hadn't given it life force. Oppressive collapse just seems meh.

>

 

I love Torch on Scourge. It's a good CC weapon, and great for Condition DPS. It also gives Might. I think they did a good job with it.

[Zefiris.8297]

Yeah, it's great for breakbars, that one is true. Haven't been able to ever use it for might - cPS does that already. :/

[Shiki.7148]

> @Zefiris.8297 said:

> Yeah, it's great for breakbars, that one is true. Haven't been able to ever use it for might - cPS does that already. :/

 

Yeah, if it was any other boon than Might (well, except regen propably) we might actually still get pug raid spots, I've seen a ~35k dps video floating around. No clue if that was after launch or in the unnerfed beta version though. Now, if those bosses regularly put out AE conditions of a certain type, the condi to boon conversion might actually be enough...I can dream, right? :/

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @Shiki.7148 said:

> > @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > Yeah, it's great for breakbars, that one is true. Haven't been able to ever use it for might - cPS does that already. :/

>

> I've seen a ~35k dps video floating around. No clue if that was after launch or in the unnerfed beta version though.

 

Any video you have seen on a golem is post launch considering you couldnt get to them before.

[Shiki.7148]

> @Sigmoid.7082 said:

> > @Shiki.7148 said:

> > > @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > > Yeah, it's great for breakbars, that one is true. Haven't been able to ever use it for might - cPS does that already. :/

> >

> > I've seen a ~35k dps video floating around. No clue if that was after launch or in the unnerfed beta version though.

>

> Any video you have seen on a golem is post launch considering you couldnt get to them before.

 

False. There are golems in the sPvP lobby, which you actually could reach. But I really hope it is after the nerfs, 35k dps would be top 3 among the old specs (smaller targets).

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @Shiki.7148 said:

> > @Sigmoid.7082 said:

> > > @Shiki.7148 said:

> > > > @Zefiris.8297 said:

> > > > Yeah, it's great for breakbars, that one is true. Haven't been able to ever use it for might - cPS does that already. :/

> > >

> > > I've seen a ~35k dps video floating around. No clue if that was after launch or in the unnerfed beta version though.

> >

> > Any video you have seen on a golem is post launch considering you couldnt get to them before.

>

> False. There are golems in the sPvP lobby, which you actually could reach. But I really hope it is after the nerfs, 35k dps would be top 3 among the old specs (smaller targets).

 

You know exactly what golems I am refering to. You know..in the SFTA..the place you couldnt get to until after launch on any of the pof specs.