Pay-To-Win specs

[Gallows.4318]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Gallows.4318" said:

> > I am still waiting for an example of a MMO with better PvP balance than GW2. I'll Trade my personal copy of the 1865 map of the fairy treasure Islands for a great example.

>

> Online Tetris.

>

> I’ll take that map now.

 

Damn... you got me. That's the only viable example currently.

 

Enjoy the treasure hunt.


 

[Obtena.7952]

Let's settle this: G2W is pay to win ... or whatever else you want to call it. It's not relevant. haters can all go home now because it's not changing.

[Alehin.3746]

there's pay to win equipment too, some guy with a very shiny big sword 1 shot me in pvp

[IndigoSundown.5419]

The trend -- at least in this forum -- has been towards redefining the term "pay to win." More and more, it has come to mean, "Anything involving the outlay of cash which someone does not like." It doesn't matter whether whatever is to be purchased with cash is even remotely involved in competitive play. Some people have even been calling skins in the gem store or buying Gen 1 Legendary Weapons P2W because of "Fashion Wars."

 

In this particular instance, some Elite Specs do offer advantages in the PvP modes. They do not provide a significant stat advantage as would be gained by buying the typical F2P P2W cash shop potion. The advantages might be access to more healing, stun breaks, better access to boons, or other factors which mean better output of damage, more sustain, or other factors (evasion, stealth, etc.).

 

Others have made good points. MMO Expansions almost always offer upgrades in power, usually much more significant than that offered by GW2 Elite Specs. I remember the first piece of green equipment I got in Wrath putting a BC epic to shame. So, there are advantages and there are Advantages. GW2 XPac's so far have stuck with the uncapitalized version. A core spec is not at a complete disadvantage versus an Elite Spec. It can compete, and win, though the need for player skill might be greater in the core spec.

 

The OP is free to say what he wants about this situation. Since P2W is a pejorative term in the greater MMO community, he is using the term because he wants to build agreement that ANet is "bad" for making the Elite Specs as they are. That doesn't seem to be working as well as he might have hoped.

 

My take on it is as follows. Players in MMO's need to realize that there are no MMO's (other than those which have seen no development) that allow players to take a multi-year time out, and jump right back into competitive play with no disadvantage and without having to buy an XPac. Desiring to do so is not a realistic expectation, no matter what pejorative term one cares to use.

[Zionka.6897]

This is silly. GW2 is horozontal progression. Meaning the level cap stays, the players progress through improving skills. So rather than raising the level cap every expansion, they offer new specs. So if it was vertical, and players would be stuck at the old cap til they bought the expansion, is that pay to win also? This is how games work.

[PookieDaWombat.6209]

> @"Etterwyn.5263" said:

> > @"PookieDaWombat.6209" said:

> > > @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > Game is B2P. You are expected to buy expansions. GW2 is not P2W. Yet.

> > >

> > > Are you denying the fact that someone who purchases no expansions at all, has a disadvantage against those who have access to all the elite specs? That is literally paying for an advantage lol. If PAYING FOR AN ADVANTAGE is not pay to win, then NOTHING is.

> >

> > I've been having great fun running core builds against the new spec builds and rolling those people on the new specs. There are some great core builds that counter the new ones fairly well in fact. Ergo, the game is not P2W. Sounds more like a L2P issue.

>

> Ugh I hate L2P games! Those are the absolute worst! I'm never giving Anet another dime... stupid stupid L2P games are everywhere these days.

 

I know right??? Having to keep on top of combos that work and differences in game mechanics? I mean seriously, its like Anet expects us to figure out how to counter other skills in the game or something. ;)

[geochan.9184]

Equality is a sin. What if it's p2w? Is there any problems with that? One's wealth is their own responsibility, being poor is due to their own incompetence. There's only so much things you can gain by limiting yourself to just one thing. The same can be said to real life, don't say that this is just a game. This game is also a part of reality, just as everything else is, keep denying this fact won't get you anywhere and you know that.

 

TL;DR - Get Good.

[Galaa.8475]

there is nothing in this game that is pay to win! dont start that bullcrap over here! every mmo i have played to date someone has brought up "pay to win" even though its wasnt. some have been pay to progress faster. but this is the one game that you cant say that about. now if you cant pay for the expansion for the elite builds that included in the expansion then thats your fault.

[Razor.6392]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > Now they are selling specializations?! There's no denying that someone who does not purchase these specs has a severe disadvantage against those who do.

>

> They’re not selling elite specializations, they’re selling expansions.

> Its no different from any other game.

> Would you call WoW a pay2win game as well? As every expansion adds new classes and races?

>

> I get the vague feeling this is about pvp, where most people use elite specializations one way or another

 

Can you stop arguing semantics? Are you at a disadvantage pvp-wise without the expansion, YES OR NO?

[Ze Dos Cavalos.6132]

All mmo's are p2w confirmed..

 

 

[Mewcifer.5198]

The way I see it. P2W means if you pay money you get an advantage above *everyone* else who didn't. And that if you do not pay you have no chance at winning. And P2W only applies to content that is players competing against other players in some way.

 

So this only would apply to PvP or WvW. I don't know much about WvW builds but I can definitively say that there are some classes that it is better to PvP with the core class than with either of the elite specs.

 

You HAVE the ability to play perfectly viable classes that can win. You do not have to pay to win. You would just be paying for more variety in how you win should you want to.

[Razor.6392]

> @"geochan.9184" said:

> Equality is a sin. What if it's p2w? Is there any problems with that? One's wealth is their own responsibility, being poor is due to their own incompetence. There's only so much things you can gain by limiting yourself to just one thing. The same can be said to real life, don't say that this is just a game. This game is also a part of reality, just as everything else is, keep denying this fact won't get you anywhere and you know that.

>

> TL;DR - Get Good.

 

I see what you're saying but let me raise you this essay on streaming and why it's bad - Let us commence a journey into the much-traveled topic of Streaming's unendurable attempts to resort to ad hominem attacks on me and my family. Before I launch into my rant, permit me the prelude caveat that it has no right to be here—and Streaming knows it. Streaming's dissertations began innocently enough with peaceful calls for democratic change. Unfortunately, its faction has since morphed into the prime backer of a bloody, armed insurgency, replete with mendacious demands for indoctrinating unbridled fussbudgets with ready-made conclusions on controversial subjects. Streaming's corporate philosophy runs at widdershins to ordinary society. In particular, it believes in giving expression to that which is most destructive and most harmful to society. So, sorry for being so long-winded in this letter, but people are looking for answers, not ideology.

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > Game is B2P. You are expected to buy expansions. GW2 is not P2W. Yet.

>

> Are you denying the fact that someone who purchases no expansions at all, has a disadvantage against those who have access to all the elite specs? That is literally paying for an advantage lol. If PAYING FOR AN ADVANTAGE is not pay to win, then NOTHING is.

 

You're not paying for an advantage, your paying for the whole content. I mean Free to Play is not supposed to be the same as someone who buys it. Free to play is a limited demo to Core GuildWars2. If you want the full experience, buy the game (expansions).

 

Not to mention that, while there are some advantages, they're not that big, for PvE at least. In PvP, depends greatly on your class, and your own play style, Even some elite specs are just dead meat in PvP, so it's not really a P2W issue, but more of a balance issue.

 

Next thing you know you'll be saying that WoW is pay to win because those that pay the subscription can go above whatever level the demo version is capped at.

Look at it like in GW1, those who bought Nightfall got to play with Dervish which is one of the strongest classes in the game, was that pay to win? No, it was pay for the content you want to play. Same thing here.

[Mist.6217]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> Can you stop arguing semantics? Are you at a disadvantage pvp-wise without the expansion, YES OR NO?

 

Only if you aren't proficient with the class you are playing.

[Azrielvon.7836]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > > @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > > Now they are selling specializations?! There's no denying that someone who does not purchase these specs has a severe disadvantage against those who do.

> >

> > They’re not selling elite specializations, they’re selling expansions.

> > Its no different from any other game.

> > Would you call WoW a pay2win game as well? As every expansion adds new classes and races?

> >

> > I get the vague feeling this is about pvp, where most people use elite specializations one way or another

>

> Can you stop arguing semantics? Are you at a disadvantage pvp-wise without the expansion, YES OR NO?

 

In terms of options, yes.

In terms of opportunity to excel, no.

[Razor.6392]

> @"Mist.6217" said:

> > @"Razor.6392" said:

> > Can you stop arguing semantics? Are you at a disadvantage pvp-wise without the expansion, YES OR NO?

>

> Only if you aren't proficient with the class you are playing.

 

So you're saying a core necro can beat a scourge if played really well?

 

Or a core engi can beat a holosmith?

 

Or a core mesmer against a mirage?

 

Haha. There are 2-3 actually good core builds out there, mostly because the traits they depend on got modified somewhere along the path to present day, but the majority underperforms greatly. The scourge vs core necro matchup in particular being 10-0 in favor of scourge.

[Daniel.5428]

> @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> Not answering my question, is paying for the expansion paying for an advantage or not? lol. Evidently, it is. Pay-to-win=Paying for an advantage over other players.

 

The game is Buy To Play and you should read what it means. If I payed 100 $ for the core game + expansions, then I should be on a superior level than someone who is playing only the core game (who is free now, considering I had to pay for it). This happens in every MMO with this model. In World of Warcraft, every new expansion add new classes, zones, bigger level, new sets of armor, so the player who bought the expansions will be far better than someone who do not want to pay. The specs are not pay to win, they are included in the expansion pack and it takes you around 1-2 hours to fully unlock it, so no additional money or grind. It would have been P2W if GW2 would have been F2P model and the specs would have been unlocked with money. Just because the core game went "free to test it" it doesn't mean the game went F2P. The game is still B2P, if you want to be at the same level as everyone else, then play for the content like everyone did. Your complain is not about the game, is about you wanting things for free, when everyone else had to pay for them. Grow up.

 

 

[psyt.9415]

I think they are going about this all wrong. Lets be honest here. People get comfortable with their specs. They find something they like and they play it and get good at it. All of a sudden a new expac comes and pulls the rug is pulled out from under you. You may not like the new specs and you may not even like the class any more because of it. We cant have a truly progressionless game people cant be satisfied with new back packs only. But at the same time invalidating someones favoured play style every expac is dumb.

 

People don't like change. Why don't they keep at least one core and each elite spec all on an even field for all classes but just introduce power creep/ progression through gear grind/ new stat combos on gear. Example I like Condi Core Ranger and Trapper Ranger, I dont really like Soulbeast and Druid is okay and I dont want to play a D Hunter for Traps. So rather than forcing me to go condi soul beast or D Hunter, why not just force me to get some new Viper+++ set or something with the next expac to keep competitive.

 

Why do I need to change my play style and reinvent the wheel. Ill still go get that gear for my favourite spec and buy the pack to be competitive and now Anet is not pissing me/people off which each new expac. Its dumb what they are doing. You chase people away, sometimes people dont reconnect with a new spec and they just leave.

[Henry.5713]

There are as many opinions on what pay2win means as there are different players and thus no MMORPG exists which is not being called P2W for one reason or another.

Wouldn't even include expansions in pay2win discussion myself since I am one of those players who do not need a "reason" to buy further expansions. I prefer to own the entire game if I continue to play and enjoy it and not just bits and pieces. However, this is just one of these many opinions.

 

Pay2win can be seen an unfair advantage for paying customers over other players such as increased stats, gear upgrades, increased gold or experience gain and possible entire classes or builds, an advantage that keeps increasing with the amount of money you are willing to spend.

**But this has to be an advantage that players can not be acquired ingame** or at least something that would be close to impossible to be achieved by normal means ingame. Guild Wars 2 is not like that at all. It is more friendly to those refusing to or unable to spend a single dime than any other game I have seen. There is nothing on the cash shop that you can not acquire by trading gold for gems, even expansions. Those upgrades go for 2400 gems which is around 600g if you are patient enough to wait for a good moment to trade. Not sure you are picked the right genre if you still feel like that is too much to ask of the players.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

OP has not been seen in here since page one. I doubt he will return or ever read this, but I'd like to point out a few things which have not been mentioned yet and actually suit to the topic.

 

- The pvp-only players in this game exist since day one. They have a tunnel-view of the game like noone else. They barely notice any change, which is not related to classes and balancing. They probably never touched PvE except for the tutorial. They literally do not care about PvE, Story, Raids, Fractals, Dungeons, Minigames. GW2 is sPvP and that is it. Some even defy the existence of WvWvW.

- This group has a very narrowed down view when it comes to the Guildwars 2, in terms of expansions. For them expansions only unlock new classes and new stat-combos. Again, they literally ignore EVERYTHING outside of the mists. That is why a part of them truly beleives, the expansions are P2W. From their point of view it is correct.

- However the forums are made for all players. Here are the PvE-players, over there are the sPvP guys, in the next corner is the Raid fraction ... etc. and most of us are aware of the other game aspects. There are specialists in every group, who dedicated their entire freetime to one game-type only. But compared to the competitive-fraction, the other specialists are less tunnel-viewed. That has to do with the fact, that we actually need to level our characters and therefore need to travel tyria. If you turn back to page one and look on the first few interactions with OP, you may realize that.

 

If you are part of the sPvP-group and still reading this: ANet actually plays in your favor nowadays. A lot of the balancing updates for skills and classes have PvP-ONLY changes. Which means they work totally different in other aspects of the game. The changes are made slowly, so we can get used to it over time. But the changes are there and they are just made for you. Most of these changes are nerfs, to grant other classes more survivability. These changes are also done with the new classes.

 

ANet is a company who runs Guildwars 2. They need money to do that. So they sell products on Gemstore and AddOns. We are still subscription free btw. So if people refuse to purchase the expansions, they have to use a bait. In PvE the bait was obvious, we received loads of new content. But to trigger the competitive-fraction, we need new classes with every addon. And they have to be slightly superior to the old ones. Else noone would buy the expansions.

 

There is one thing you could ask for. I am not sure if ANet would do it, but I guess it is worth a try. When creating arenas and pvp-matches, you can turn on a lot of options and switches. There are filters for certain matches. ~~We~~ They need checkboxes for every expansion allowed on that map and an additional filter option with the same feature. With such an option, it should be possible to always match up with people with the same requirements. But still, this will only keep a certain group of players from purchasing the expansions. So I doubt it will ever happen.

[tacticalevilnoodlefox.5694]

I guess if you want to view it through the most absolute black and white terms possible then yes the expansions are pay to win. You get more content, more chances to earn gold, more choice for profession skills, more game mechanics to play around with etc with each new expansion. Of course this would also mean that the core game without the expansions is also pay to win since you have massive advantages over free to play players.

 

That being said I don't feel it's fair to take away all nuance of the situation and just scream "Answer yes or no" when the answer is more complicated then that. Guild Wars isn't going to continue running on charity and good thoughts alone. Even gem store sales aren't likely to just keep the game floating. Somebody has to pay to keep the lights on. To pay wages for employees, and yes pay to keep whatever CEO and shareholders there are happy enough so they don't decide to pull the plug and spend their resources and man power on a more profitable venture. Maybe those of us that paid for the expansion get a distinct game play advantage over core players, and maybe core players get an advantage over free to play, but maybe that's an acceptable trade off for having a game you can come back to after having shelved it for a few years. Maybe it's acceptable to be a little less viable in a single game mode (because anything can be useful in PvE or WvW) in exchange for having only had to pay a one time price assuming you paid anything at all. There are a lot worse money making tactics they could implement then a system that has been accepted as a fair trade in the gaming industry for years.

 

And this is personal opinion so take it as you will, but while I don't always agree with the way they handle the gemstore (esp that whole mount skin debacle) GW2 is still one of the most consumer friendly MMOs I've run into. I've always felt like I got a fair shake in most of the transactions I've made.

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Razor.6392" said:

> > @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> > > @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> > > Now they are selling specializations?! There's no denying that someone who does not purchase these specs has a severe disadvantage against those who do.

> >

> > They’re not selling elite specializations, they’re selling expansions.

> > Its no different from any other game.

> > Would you call WoW a pay2win game as well? As every expansion adds new classes and races?

> >

> > I get the vague feeling this is about pvp, where most people use elite specializations one way or another

>

> Can you stop arguing semantics? Are you at a disadvantage pvp-wise without the expansion, YES OR NO?

 

No, you’re not. You have fewer methods to your goal, but no less oppertunities

[markel.5196]

Does getting several copies of the expansion gives you advantage over people who only getting one?

[intox.6347]

> @"Brewergamer.8357" said:

> Facts: Paying for an expansion gives you an advantage in PvP over those who have not paid for these specs.

> Pay-To-Win: Paying for an advantage.

> That is literally the definition.

 

Dunno if troll or just simple minded. You can also say that if person buy for example GTA5 it gives advantage against person who didnt buy it. Sounds dumb ? Yeah. Same here, its expansion ... same works in all other games.

P2W system is about ... buying +20% dmg booster by real money.... or perma stealth suite.. or special weapons with ultra effect .. triple dmg than best ingame weapon.

 

And even if you dont buy expans... u can compete... with classes like shat mesm, s/d thief, war with no problem.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

If we define 'pay-to-win' with the premise of gaining an advantage over other players by paying money, then that is debatable. There is no level creep or gear treadmill in GW2, so you don't gain any direct, incontestable power advantage over other players simply by buying the expansions (this is not true for most MMO's where buying an expansion means you're automatically becoming stronger by default). New elite specs are also not guaranteed to be better than older ones (compare Daredevil to Deadeye, for example), and any balance disparity that exists with current elite specs will almost certainly be addressed with balance patches until there are a variety of builds, both new and old, that are competitive (at least, if the balance team cares about the integrity of the game, which I assume they do).

 

The main difference is less about power creep, and more about variety. It's obvious that buying the expansions will give you access to more variety in terms of gear stats or builds, but more options doesn't necessarily = better options. New elite specs can be a boon for players, but they can also be a trap (i.e. players play a spec simply because it is 'new and shiny' but not because it's the most effective). There are also going to be cases where new specs might be considered overpowered, like Scourge in PvP, but again, that is something likely to be addressed in balance patches (there have already been nerfs to some of the new elite specs, and buffs to some that were under-performing).

 

In the end, I'd say GW2 has much less of a noticeable chasm dividing base game and expansion players than you'd see in other MMO's. They probably took the least severe approach when it came to balancing the idea of providing new content, without invalidating old content. Whether that's good or bad is for you to decide, but I wouldn't call it "Pay-to-win" directly. That's just my opinion though.