Kagusaki.3176 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"Crinn.7864" said: > The obstructed issue is not a bug. Anet revealed some time ago that they intentionally introduced the LoS check in order to keep the class from breaking WvW and sPvP. It's funny when you drop a sand shade on someone who is standing on a set of stairs less than a foot away from you and get "obstructed" while you can pour a pot of oil on a wall that's several feet away from the pot and at the same height as long as it's within range. If they're going to have the LoS check on one aoe attack from a class, they should add it on all aoe attacks in each class to "balance" the game play. They basically did that when they eliminated cleric stats in PvP for EVERY class because of eles. Of course to make PvP even more balanced, they allow you to equip runes made specifically for other classes (Superior Rune of the Druid, Rune of the Deadeye, Rune of the Dragonhunter, Rune of the Ranger, etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormwings.8329 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 The problem with the obstructed is also in open field. You will have that obstructed even if you manage to cast F1 on top of your target. Just tell me how an aoe that i was able to cast could be obstructed... And for the wall kitten part: weaver can put perma pressure on the wall cos you know... they have more than meteor and lava font but in wvw for 1 ele there are 10 necro so ppl will cry cry and cry "necro is op". Think if there were 30 ele bombing the wall and than compare that with the shades. Btw the answer fot the obstructed is here : https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/21027/dev-response-to-obstructed-shades It makes no sense at all but yeah... the only think i understood when i read that was: they did something wrong, they hide it in the patch notes, they dont know how to fix it cos they will probably kitten the 10 friendly target for the shades, they will never ever try to revert it back of find a way to fix it in open field and that they totaly dont play their game (i think every1 already know this last 1) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames. > > Doesn't every single class have such a bunker build, and mostly even more effective at it as well, one thing is for sure: less selfish! The build I'm talking about ISN'T a bunker build though .. but it survives just as easily if not better than one that you could make with whatever class you want because of the stupid mechanics behind how mobs interact with minions. All that is besides the point though; this isn't a discussion about bunker builds (that was a misdirection by someone else in the first place); it was related to the idea that someone was lamenting the worthless condi Scourge in PVE because of the changes. That's quite laughable if you actually play one. The premise of the thread is pretty weak to begin with; I mean, if people aren't ackowlegding the strength of the Scouge in WvW and PVP, they just aren't being very honest. Did it adversely affect PVE? Maybe, but I've seen very few instances where game changes DIDN'T affect performance in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexan.5930 Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames. > > > > Doesn't every single class have such a bunker build, and mostly even more effective at it as well, one thing is for sure: less selfish! > > The build I'm talking about ISN'T a bunker build though .. but it survives just as easily if not better than one that you could make with whatever class you want because of the stupid mechanics behind how mobs interact with minions. > > All that is besides the point though; this isn't a discussion about bunker builds (that was a misdirection by someone else in the first place); it was related to the idea that someone was lamenting the worthless condi Scourge in PVE because of the changes. That's quite laughable if you actually play one. > > The premise of the thread is pretty weak to begin with; I mean, if people aren't ackowlegding the strength of the Scouge in WvW and PVP, they just aren't being very honest. Did it adversely affect PVE? Maybe, but I've seen very few instances where game changes DIDN'T affect performance in some way. > > > any necro build with minions you complain about is the same problem with mesmer and their clones grabbing and holding "aggro" and also being able to do rediculous damage, interupts, and condis from range. And with the phantasm changes it's even better. Due to the delay on the shade pulse in pve and the reduced durration of torment on punishment skills, condi scourge in pve has lost dps and is again being beat out by many other condi classes. It brings condi necro's back to mid HoT days where it's brought for epi and not much else. Unfortunately any "advantage" we got with burning and torment applications gets beat out by any well geared berzerker or renegade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames. > > > > Doesn't every single class have such a bunker build, and mostly even more effective at it as well, one thing is for sure: less selfish! > > The build I'm talking about ISN'T a bunker build though .. but it survives just as easily if not better than one that you could make with whatever class you want because of the stupid mechanics behind how mobs interact with minions. > > All that is besides the point though; this isn't a discussion about bunker builds (that was a misdirection by someone else in the first place); it was related to the idea that someone was lamenting the worthless condi Scourge in PVE because of the changes. That's quite laughable if you actually play one. > > The premise of the thread is pretty weak to begin with; I mean, if people aren't ackowlegding the strength of the Scouge in WvW and PVP, they just aren't being very honest. Did it adversely affect PVE? Maybe, but I've seen very few instances where game changes DIDN'T affect performance in some way. > > > To be more accurate, the build you are talking about is a build that use traitlines that are mainly defensive (DM/BM) alongside a line which could be seen as offensive (Curse) but that you take for a trait that can only be qualifyed as defensive. On top on that, this spec use gear with 2 defensive stat (toughness and vitality). You know, putting it that way, this really look quite close to what we call a "bunker" build. That's a first, someone tried to sell a dire/trailblazer minion master build as a non bunker build... But I digress, the question was "why the change to scourge condi" and the answer could only be "because PvP". In PvP, players have low health pool and anet always try it's best to make sure that fight are quick instead of long and boring. That's why there is always this will to keep the healing roles as marginal as possible, nerfing number to the bare minimum. That's also why as soon as a "bunker" build appear in PvP this build enter the "to nerf" list. I know that you quite like to be the devil advocate but honestly sometime you go a tiny bit to far obtena. The scourge was designed to be a "scourge" in PvP. It's dps value were primarily set to make it also effective in PvE. However, while these values were a bit to high at first they are now a far behind anything but still cause an uproar in PvP WvW. Saying that the necromancer deserve to have less dps because he got high survivability is also a very bad misconception of the game. No profession in this game have low innate survivability and certainly no profession have more or less survivability than the necromancer. The only fact is that player either forgot how to survive with other profession or just think that facetanking is fine since there is druid behind. Back in the day, I can recall clearly that player were actually timing their use of skills with evade frame in order to avoid boss mechanisms, The necromancer who didn't have any, could use it's shroud at this moment and more than often he would die pathetically by doing this. For a time the shroud actually blocked the overflow of damage, but this time is long gone. Going along with the logic of high survivability should mean low damage, I'd expect mirage to have absolutely abysmal damages, eve lower than the dps that the chrono had on HoT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"Lexan.5930" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames. > > > > > > Doesn't every single class have such a bunker build, and mostly even more effective at it as well, one thing is for sure: less selfish! > > > > The build I'm talking about ISN'T a bunker build though .. but it survives just as easily if not better than one that you could make with whatever class you want because of the stupid mechanics behind how mobs interact with minions. > > > > All that is besides the point though; this isn't a discussion about bunker builds (that was a misdirection by someone else in the first place); it was related to the idea that someone was lamenting the worthless condi Scourge in PVE because of the changes. That's quite laughable if you actually play one. > > > > The premise of the thread is pretty weak to begin with; I mean, if people aren't ackowlegding the strength of the Scouge in WvW and PVP, they just aren't being very honest. Did it adversely affect PVE? Maybe, but I've seen very few instances where game changes DIDN'T affect performance in some way. > > > > > > > > any necro build with minions you complain about is the same problem with mesmer and their clones grabbing and holding "aggro" and also being able to do rediculous damage, interupts, and condis from range. And with the phantasm changes it's even better. > > Due to the delay on the shade pulse in pve and the reduced durration of torment on punishment skills, condi scourge in pve has lost dps and is again being beat out by many other condi classes. It brings condi necro's back to mid HoT days where it's brought for epi and not much else. Unfortunately any "advantage" we got with burning and torment applications gets beat out by any well geared berzerker or renegade. Yup, but comparisons to other classes isn't very relevant to begin with. Anet doesn't appear to make any attempt to have equivalent performance between classes. I've played a Mesmer clone vs. a Necro Minion though ... it's not the same. While the clones do some work to take aggro, the mob WILL bounce between them until it finds you. I don't have that problem on Necro minions. Probably because the minions actually do damage for you. > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames. > > > > > > Doesn't every single class have such a bunker build, and mostly even more effective at it as well, one thing is for sure: less selfish! > > > > The build I'm talking about ISN'T a bunker build though .. but it survives just as easily if not better than one that you could make with whatever class you want because of the stupid mechanics behind how mobs interact with minions. > > > > All that is besides the point though; this isn't a discussion about bunker builds (that was a misdirection by someone else in the first place); it was related to the idea that someone was lamenting the worthless condi Scourge in PVE because of the changes. That's quite laughable if you actually play one. > > > > The premise of the thread is pretty weak to begin with; I mean, if people aren't ackowlegding the strength of the Scouge in WvW and PVP, they just aren't being very honest. Did it adversely affect PVE? Maybe, but I've seen very few instances where game changes DIDN'T affect performance in some way. > > > > > > > > To be more accurate, the build you are talking about is a build that use traitlines that are mainly defensive (DM/BM) alongside a line which could be seen as offensive (Curse) but that you take for a trait that can only be qualifyed as defensive. On top on that, this spec use gear with 2 defensive stat (toughness and vitality). I think I need to clarify something. You are correct about the traits, but the gear is pure Condi ... or as close as you can get to it (Vipers or Sinister). Even with a full out condi offensive build, I perform BETTER than any tank does. I was replying to someone that was downplaying the strength of the build to make their point stronger, except the relevant comparison wasn't a bunker build in the first place; I suppose the discussion becomes a little off topic then: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBLRhG2IDN0Ujd1gbNwejjghaOD7w6GTgAICknQKUCA-ThTAQBU4ACcNlBBUfgYUilOzTR7JAaEwgSwZoBRanAgXs/ohQBHIAAcQAio6PMRphAgaA-e That's an old version, but it's actually light on the defensive traits. I'm not even sure the BM traits are all that useful in it anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexan.5930 Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Lexan.5930" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames. > > > > > > > > Doesn't every single class have such a bunker build, and mostly even more effective at it as well, one thing is for sure: less selfish! > > > > > > The build I'm talking about ISN'T a bunker build though .. but it survives just as easily if not better than one that you could make with whatever class you want because of the stupid mechanics behind how mobs interact with minions. > > > > > > All that is besides the point though; this isn't a discussion about bunker builds (that was a misdirection by someone else in the first place); it was related to the idea that someone was lamenting the worthless condi Scourge in PVE because of the changes. That's quite laughable if you actually play one. > > > > > > The premise of the thread is pretty weak to begin with; I mean, if people aren't ackowlegding the strength of the Scouge in WvW and PVP, they just aren't being very honest. Did it adversely affect PVE? Maybe, but I've seen very few instances where game changes DIDN'T affect performance in some way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > any necro build with minions you complain about is the same problem with mesmer and their clones grabbing and holding "aggro" and also being able to do rediculous damage, interupts, and condis from range. And with the phantasm changes it's even better. > > > > Due to the delay on the shade pulse in pve and the reduced durration of torment on punishment skills, condi scourge in pve has lost dps and is again being beat out by many other condi classes. It brings condi necro's back to mid HoT days where it's brought for epi and not much else. Unfortunately any "advantage" we got with burning and torment applications gets beat out by any well geared berzerker or renegade. > > Yup, but comparisons to other classes isn't very relevant to begin with. Anet doesn't appear to make any attempt to have equivalent performance between classes. I've played a Mesmer clone vs. a Necro Minion though ... it's not the same. While the clones do some work to take aggro, the mob WILL bounce between them until it finds you. I don't have that problem on Necro minions. Probably because the minions actually do damage for you. > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames. > > > > > > > > Doesn't every single class have such a bunker build, and mostly even more effective at it as well, one thing is for sure: less selfish! > > > > > > The build I'm talking about ISN'T a bunker build though .. but it survives just as easily if not better than one that you could make with whatever class you want because of the stupid mechanics behind how mobs interact with minions. > > > > > > All that is besides the point though; this isn't a discussion about bunker builds (that was a misdirection by someone else in the first place); it was related to the idea that someone was lamenting the worthless condi Scourge in PVE because of the changes. That's quite laughable if you actually play one. > > > > > > The premise of the thread is pretty weak to begin with; I mean, if people aren't ackowlegding the strength of the Scouge in WvW and PVP, they just aren't being very honest. Did it adversely affect PVE? Maybe, but I've seen very few instances where game changes DIDN'T affect performance in some way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > To be more accurate, the build you are talking about is a build that use traitlines that are mainly defensive (DM/BM) alongside a line which could be seen as offensive (Curse) but that you take for a trait that can only be qualifyed as defensive. On top on that, this spec use gear with 2 defensive stat (toughness and vitality). > > I think I need to clarify something. You are correct about the traits, but the gear is pure Condi ... or as close as you can get to it (Vipers or Sinister). Even with a full out condi offensive build, I perform BETTER than any tank does. I was replying to someone that was downplaying the strength of the build to make their point stronger, except the relevant comparison wasn't a bunker build in the first place; I suppose the discussion becomes a little off topic then: > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBLRhG2IDN0Ujd1gbNwejjghaOD7w6GTgAICknQKUCA-ThTAQBU4ACcNlBBUfgYUilOzTR7JAaEwgSwZoBRanAgXs/ohQBHIAAcQAio6PMRphAgaA-e > > That's an old version, but it's actually light on the defensive traits. I'm not even sure the BM traits are all that useful in it anymore. your origonal responce was that necro has a "crushing" condi pve build. For condi in high level pve (raids) necro's actually have the lowest condi damage after condi zerkers, condi revs and condi mesmers. my OP was that the nerf to necro condi in pvp has reduced the already low condi for necro in pve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlySynz.3471 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 In regards to the "obstructed issue" I believe Anet said at one time it wasn't an issue or bug... except now, I'd definitely call it a bug. Finished fighting Tequatl not long ago, only to see repeated "obstructed" messages from this giant dragon. I had to repeatedly move around in the burn phase to find a spot where a shade actually hit. I think at this point in time, I'd call the obstructed message a definite bug and a crippling one at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexan.5930 Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > In regards to the "obstructed issue" I believe Anet said at one time it wasn't an issue or bug... except now, I'd definitely call it a bug. > > Finished fighting Tequatl not long ago, only to see repeated "obstructed" messages from this giant dragon. I had to repeatedly move around in the burn phase to find a spot where a shade actually hit. > > I think at this point in time, I'd call the obstructed message a definite bug and a crippling one at that. there are certain bosses and npc's who's hurt box is inside of structures or the ground, even by a little bit, thats causes this to not hit because of crappy ground mechanics, but everyone has that problem. With the nerf to condi conversion and the delay on all shade skills, necro shades really shouldnt have this in them any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Lexan.5930" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Lexan.5930" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames. > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't every single class have such a bunker build, and mostly even more effective at it as well, one thing is for sure: less selfish! > > > > > > > > The build I'm talking about ISN'T a bunker build though .. but it survives just as easily if not better than one that you could make with whatever class you want because of the stupid mechanics behind how mobs interact with minions. > > > > > > > > All that is besides the point though; this isn't a discussion about bunker builds (that was a misdirection by someone else in the first place); it was related to the idea that someone was lamenting the worthless condi Scourge in PVE because of the changes. That's quite laughable if you actually play one. > > > > > > > > The premise of the thread is pretty weak to begin with; I mean, if people aren't ackowlegding the strength of the Scouge in WvW and PVP, they just aren't being very honest. Did it adversely affect PVE? Maybe, but I've seen very few instances where game changes DIDN'T affect performance in some way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > any necro build with minions you complain about is the same problem with mesmer and their clones grabbing and holding "aggro" and also being able to do rediculous damage, interupts, and condis from range. And with the phantasm changes it's even better. > > > > > > Due to the delay on the shade pulse in pve and the reduced durration of torment on punishment skills, condi scourge in pve has lost dps and is again being beat out by many other condi classes. It brings condi necro's back to mid HoT days where it's brought for epi and not much else. Unfortunately any "advantage" we got with burning and torment applications gets beat out by any well geared berzerker or renegade. > > > > Yup, but comparisons to other classes isn't very relevant to begin with. Anet doesn't appear to make any attempt to have equivalent performance between classes. I've played a Mesmer clone vs. a Necro Minion though ... it's not the same. While the clones do some work to take aggro, the mob WILL bounce between them until it finds you. I don't have that problem on Necro minions. Probably because the minions actually do damage for you. > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames. > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't every single class have such a bunker build, and mostly even more effective at it as well, one thing is for sure: less selfish! > > > > > > > > The build I'm talking about ISN'T a bunker build though .. but it survives just as easily if not better than one that you could make with whatever class you want because of the stupid mechanics behind how mobs interact with minions. > > > > > > > > All that is besides the point though; this isn't a discussion about bunker builds (that was a misdirection by someone else in the first place); it was related to the idea that someone was lamenting the worthless condi Scourge in PVE because of the changes. That's quite laughable if you actually play one. > > > > > > > > The premise of the thread is pretty weak to begin with; I mean, if people aren't ackowlegding the strength of the Scouge in WvW and PVP, they just aren't being very honest. Did it adversely affect PVE? Maybe, but I've seen very few instances where game changes DIDN'T affect performance in some way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To be more accurate, the build you are talking about is a build that use traitlines that are mainly defensive (DM/BM) alongside a line which could be seen as offensive (Curse) but that you take for a trait that can only be qualifyed as defensive. On top on that, this spec use gear with 2 defensive stat (toughness and vitality). > > > > I think I need to clarify something. You are correct about the traits, but the gear is pure Condi ... or as close as you can get to it (Vipers or Sinister). Even with a full out condi offensive build, I perform BETTER than any tank does. I was replying to someone that was downplaying the strength of the build to make their point stronger, except the relevant comparison wasn't a bunker build in the first place; I suppose the discussion becomes a little off topic then: > > > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBLRhG2IDN0Ujd1gbNwejjghaOD7w6GTgAICknQKUCA-ThTAQBU4ACcNlBBUfgYUilOzTR7JAaEwgSwZoBRanAgXs/ohQBHIAAcQAio6PMRphAgaA-e > > > > That's an old version, but it's actually light on the defensive traits. I'm not even sure the BM traits are all that useful in it anymore. > > your origonal responce was that necro has a "crushing" condi pve build. For condi in high level pve (raids) necro's actually have the lowest condi damage after condi zerkers, condi revs and condi mesmers. > > my OP was that the nerf to necro condi in pvp has reduced the already low condi for necro in pve. What gives you the impression that the condi build necro has in PVE is low damage? Are you just pushing meta here? Do you HAVE any idea what kind of condi stack and uptime you are able to achieve with this build or do you suspect that because it's not meta, it's low? I'm going to guess you don't know what you are talking about. Again, this build is exceptional in it's ability to complete content by lowering a skill threshold AND maintains it's damage doing it. Bunker builds don't do that; they rely on stats and traits to achieve what this build does without compromising it's gear and traits to do so. This was the case BEFORE POF, so to claim that the nerf to shade torment application was some ruinous effect to PVE condi builds is a serious lack of perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > To be more accurate, the build you are talking about is a build that use traitlines that are mainly defensive (DM/BM) alongside a line which could be seen as offensive (Curse) but that you take for a trait that can only be qualifyed as defensive. On top on that, this spec use gear with 2 defensive stat (toughness and vitality). > > I think I need to clarify something. You are correct about the traits, but the gear is pure Condi ... or as close as you can get to it (Vipers or Sinister). Even with a full out condi offensive build, I perform BETTER than any tank does. I was replying to someone that was downplaying the strength of the build to make their point stronger, except the relevant comparison wasn't a bunker build in the first place; I suppose the discussion becomes a little off topic then: > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBLRhG2IDN0Ujd1gbNwejjghaOD7w6GTgAICknQKUCA-ThTAQBU4ACcNlBBUfgYUilOzTR7JAaEwgSwZoBRanAgXs/ohQBHIAAcQAio6PMRphAgaA-e > > That's an old version, but it's actually light on the defensive traits. I'm not even sure the BM traits are all that useful in it anymore. Nope Obtena, you wouldn't make it work without blood magic for the sole reason that most of your survivability come from this single trait: vampiric. The minion's only use is to heal you thanks to this very trait. Vampiric is probably the most op minion trait of the necromancer. This is a bunker build throught and throught. Sure you go your way taking a full damage gear but that's all. Elementalists cry because they are "forced" to do the exact same thing as your build do in PvP, they cry because they are pigeonholing themselve into a defensive and a sustain traitline, respectively water and earth magic. Still there is damage packed in those 2 traitlines. The trade is the same, You take utilities skill for the sole reason of surviving and you trait heavily for bunkering. Yes! you can spec as an elementalist to have huge sustain the same way the necromancer can spec to have huge sustain. The result is the exact same. The only difference is that one is viewed as OP, while the other is considered a fool. It's a pain in the... to see the crybabies that don't want to see all what the necromancer trad to have it's survivability come here and spout nonsense about "other profession being harder to play so they deserve to deal more damage". And the worst is when someone like you take out of it's hat a build which is entirely focused toward survivability and say that it's op. The necromancer do not have more survivability than other profession and certainly do not have more damages. The necromancer make the exact same trad necessary to survive than the other professions. If one think that it's profession lack survivability it's that this player build himself for damage and is not aware of (or just don't want to use) the tools that it's profession give to him. I'm pretty sure if the necromancer were given the tools to deal damage at the same level as the other professions, he would a be a lot more squishy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adenin.5973 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Well, I won't talk about scourge for a moment but for core necro and for reaper shroud the problem is really obvious for me. Many ppl claim that necro shroud is defense + offense in one mechanic and this is what makes it so powerful and the reason why it can't hit harder or get a shorter cd or less degeneration/greater lifeforce pool etc. I say that's not right. The reaper or core necro shroud is either defense OR offense. If you want to use your shroud to deal damage, this means that you can't take any damage, otherwise you get kicked out and can't deal damage anymore. This means, if you want to use shroud offensive, you have to dodge the damage or somehow use some form of cc or run out of circles, wasting time and interrupting your rotation or whatever you have to do to not lower your lifeforce pool by incoming damage. And if you want to use it defensive you can't just activate your shroud at anytime, because of the huge degeneration percentage. You have to activate shroud when an enemy hits you and then deactivate the shroud immediately after the burst is over to regenerate enough lifeforce to be ready when the next burst hits you. You can't just enter shroud, dish out tons of damage, use it as second lifebar when damage hits you and then continue hitting the foe. It's either a second healthbar or some kind of "berserker mode" to do dmg. It's not both. But because it's treated like both, from a huge part of the playerbase and also by the devs, it will only be a mediocre or bad defense mechanic and a mediocre or bad offensive mechanic. What would shroud look like if it were really offensive and defensive in one skill/mechanic? It would be a necro "berserker" version, with a timer running down when you enter it, that gives you pulsating stability, protection and 10% of the damage dealt gets converted into health, while also giving you extra hard hitting skills with +50% crit chance and +15% attack speed. This would be offensive AND defensive in one skill. this would be op. The shroud is none of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > To be more accurate, the build you are talking about is a build that use traitlines that are mainly defensive (DM/BM) alongside a line which could be seen as offensive (Curse) but that you take for a trait that can only be qualifyed as defensive. On top on that, this spec use gear with 2 defensive stat (toughness and vitality). > > > > I think I need to clarify something. You are correct about the traits, but the gear is pure Condi ... or as close as you can get to it (Vipers or Sinister). Even with a full out condi offensive build, I perform BETTER than any tank does. I was replying to someone that was downplaying the strength of the build to make their point stronger, except the relevant comparison wasn't a bunker build in the first place; I suppose the discussion becomes a little off topic then: > > > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBLRhG2IDN0Ujd1gbNwejjghaOD7w6GTgAICknQKUCA-ThTAQBU4ACcNlBBUfgYUilOzTR7JAaEwgSwZoBRanAgXs/ohQBHIAAcQAio6PMRphAgaA-e > > > > That's an old version, but it's actually light on the defensive traits. I'm not even sure the BM traits are all that useful in it anymore. > > Nope Obtena, you wouldn't make it work without blood magic for the sole reason that most of your survivability come from this single trait: vampiric. The minion's only use is to heal you thanks to this very trait. > > Vampiric is probably the most op minion trait of the necromancer. This is a bunker build throught and throught. Sure you go your way taking a full damage gear but that's all. Elementalists cry because they are "forced" to do the exact same thing as your build do in PvP, they cry because they are pigeonholing themselve into a defensive and a sustain traitline, respectively water and earth magic. Still there is damage packed in those 2 traitlines. The trade is the same, You take utilities skill for the sole reason of surviving and you trait heavily for bunkering. > > Yes! you can spec as an elementalist to have huge sustain the same way the necromancer can spec to have huge sustain. The result is the exact same. The only difference is that one is viewed as OP, while the other is considered a fool. I guess we have to disagree because I know what the build is capable of doing as I used it exclusively to meander through HoT. No, it's not dependent on Vampiric; I've played it. Vampiric is insurance. The mobs don't even know you are there if you play right. In fact, you can completely drop Blood for Scourge, have a better build that works exactly the same way with better DPS output. How do I know? Because I've played that build to. This is NOT the same thing as when other classes bunker up because other classes don't bunker up in full condi gear for DPS. The result of this necro build and another classes survival build are not the same, because more often than not, the other classes compromise their DPS to get that survival, the condi necro doesn't, at least not the same extent. My DPS output is maintained. It's not reasonable to say that there isn't anything exceptional about a class with a build that tanks extremely well AND does a very good amount of DPS. So the point being is that the OP is lamenting the fact that a very powerful PVE build has been unjustly downgraded ... except he has no perspective. These builds are exceptionally strong when played properly, regardless of what you want to call them or what other classes do. Minions and Death Magic are the reason for this, not Vampiric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexan.5930 Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Lexan.5930" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Lexan.5930" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames. > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't every single class have such a bunker build, and mostly even more effective at it as well, one thing is for sure: less selfish! > > > > > > > > > > The build I'm talking about ISN'T a bunker build though .. but it survives just as easily if not better than one that you could make with whatever class you want because of the stupid mechanics behind how mobs interact with minions. > > > > > > > > > > All that is besides the point though; this isn't a discussion about bunker builds (that was a misdirection by someone else in the first place); it was related to the idea that someone was lamenting the worthless condi Scourge in PVE because of the changes. That's quite laughable if you actually play one. > > > > > > > > > > The premise of the thread is pretty weak to begin with; I mean, if people aren't ackowlegding the strength of the Scouge in WvW and PVP, they just aren't being very honest. Did it adversely affect PVE? Maybe, but I've seen very few instances where game changes DIDN'T affect performance in some way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > any necro build with minions you complain about is the same problem with mesmer and their clones grabbing and holding "aggro" and also being able to do rediculous damage, interupts, and condis from range. And with the phantasm changes it's even better. > > > > > > > > Due to the delay on the shade pulse in pve and the reduced durration of torment on punishment skills, condi scourge in pve has lost dps and is again being beat out by many other condi classes. It brings condi necro's back to mid HoT days where it's brought for epi and not much else. Unfortunately any "advantage" we got with burning and torment applications gets beat out by any well geared berzerker or renegade. > > > > > > Yup, but comparisons to other classes isn't very relevant to begin with. Anet doesn't appear to make any attempt to have equivalent performance between classes. I've played a Mesmer clone vs. a Necro Minion though ... it's not the same. While the clones do some work to take aggro, the mob WILL bounce between them until it finds you. I don't have that problem on Necro minions. Probably because the minions actually do damage for you. > > > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > OK ... you can say whatever you want about your definition of unbalanced ... and I can to. Ironic that you're arguing with me about what my definition is ... based on what yours is. It's not even relevant to the discussion. The build does some things in the game that go beyond AFK farming ice spiders in BFF; being sensational doesn't lessen what the build is capable of doing. If you just want to relegate it down to a bunker build to win an argument, so be it. I'm not here to argue with you about definitions. I can say that you should probably take less offense to the idea that necro can actually excel at doing something; getting bent out of shape serves no purpose, unless your goal is just to play wordgames. > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't every single class have such a bunker build, and mostly even more effective at it as well, one thing is for sure: less selfish! > > > > > > > > > > The build I'm talking about ISN'T a bunker build though .. but it survives just as easily if not better than one that you could make with whatever class you want because of the stupid mechanics behind how mobs interact with minions. > > > > > > > > > > All that is besides the point though; this isn't a discussion about bunker builds (that was a misdirection by someone else in the first place); it was related to the idea that someone was lamenting the worthless condi Scourge in PVE because of the changes. That's quite laughable if you actually play one. > > > > > > > > > > The premise of the thread is pretty weak to begin with; I mean, if people aren't ackowlegding the strength of the Scouge in WvW and PVP, they just aren't being very honest. Did it adversely affect PVE? Maybe, but I've seen very few instances where game changes DIDN'T affect performance in some way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To be more accurate, the build you are talking about is a build that use traitlines that are mainly defensive (DM/BM) alongside a line which could be seen as offensive (Curse) but that you take for a trait that can only be qualifyed as defensive. On top on that, this spec use gear with 2 defensive stat (toughness and vitality). > > > > > > I think I need to clarify something. You are correct about the traits, but the gear is pure Condi ... or as close as you can get to it (Vipers or Sinister). Even with a full out condi offensive build, I perform BETTER than any tank does. I was replying to someone that was downplaying the strength of the build to make their point stronger, except the relevant comparison wasn't a bunker build in the first place; I suppose the discussion becomes a little off topic then: > > > > > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBLRhG2IDN0Ujd1gbNwejjghaOD7w6GTgAICknQKUCA-ThTAQBU4ACcNlBBUfgYUilOzTR7JAaEwgSwZoBRanAgXs/ohQBHIAAcQAio6PMRphAgaA-e > > > > > > That's an old version, but it's actually light on the defensive traits. I'm not even sure the BM traits are all that useful in it anymore. > > > > your origonal responce was that necro has a "crushing" condi pve build. For condi in high level pve (raids) necro's actually have the lowest condi damage after condi zerkers, condi revs and condi mesmers. > > > > my OP was that the nerf to necro condi in pvp has reduced the already low condi for necro in pve. > > What gives you the impression that the condi build necro has in PVE is low damage? Are you just pushing meta here? Do you HAVE any idea what kind of condi stack and uptime you are able to achieve with this build or do you suspect that because it's not meta, it's low? I'm going to guess you don't know what you are talking about. > > Again, this build is exceptional in it's ability to complete content by lowering a skill threshold AND maintains it's damage doing it. Bunker builds don't do that; they rely on stats and traits to achieve what this build does without compromising it's gear and traits to do so. This was the case BEFORE POF, so to claim that the nerf to shade torment application was some ruinous effect to PVE condi builds is a serious lack of perspective. It's not an impressions, it's experience. I have been playing necro since gw1 beta. I have been through allt he changes to necro since GW2 launch. Pre HOT, it was dungeon groups saying "no necro". Durring HoT it was fractal groups saying "no necro", and raid groups saying "no necro". Only after the adition of 3 bleed stacks in deathly chill were necro's wanted for 1 or 2 fights. PoF launch finally put necro in a spot where they were seen as viable dps, and it was amazing. Since PoF launch necro condi (especially scourge) has been nerfed. It was harsh at first but then slowed down. Pre feb 6th patch, necro condi was on the low end of competitive condi damage. Beat out by condi mirage, condi berzerker and just above condi renegade. Since feb 6th patch condi necro has reduced condi damage output due to the reduced durration of torment on punishment skills and biggest of all the .5 second delay on all shade skills. the delay makes hitting bosses with shade skills inconsistent. Think the pathing on bosses like mursatt overseer. Now condi mesmer is top condi damage, with berzerker after is, condi renegade next, condi ele, thief and even engineer around mid tier and necro working it's way to the bottom of the condi boards. And the biggest condi we get from pluage lands still requires the target to stand still, which only works on some bosses, which then reduces the torment damage done to them, ie sabatha. TLDR : necro condi is again falling to behind most other condi classes due to nerfs, especially in the most recent patch. Note: I used to dominate most fights with other condi classes pre feb 6th patch. With the same gear and rotation on the same bosses, i have lost a good 2k dps just from the patch. now this might be from the changes to alacrity and quickness uptime, but so far for condi daamage, the scourge has be crippled in PvE raids. as for open world pve, yea everyone has a tanky build with the right gear and traits and skills, a tanky open world build shouldn't define the effectiveness of a class across the entire game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galmac.4680 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 But all others have much more damage too, and so you're at the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need. Necro (reaper) condi damage were sitting at 31k ceiling prior to PoF core necro was at 27k. At PoF launch scourge exploded this and was sitting at 38k. Shortly after, along with a 10% damage reduce for everyone, scourge and reaper ended up with equal condi damage at 30k condi damage. Then reaper got "Powered" and it's condi damage reduced leaving scourge on top, still at 30k. Now with the slight change to shades scourge probably deal as much condi damage as reaper, which is less than Prior to PoF. Meanwhile, you got specs from other professions that easily break past the 30k condi dps up to 36-37k condi dps. What you fail to see is that players here ask for a bit of fairness in PvE. Yes you can clear the content without armor or with half a team if you properly use boons/offensive support, but the necromancer can't properly use boons. Yes, it's not necessary to have a full meta team to clear the content. But, you will never ever be able to prevent the playerbase from excluding professions that are underperforming in both support and damages, which is the main issue of the necromancer. Still, like I said in another thread, it's a relief that group play have been simplified since launch and that mobility is a less imprtant that it used to be. Thanks to that, the necromancer is no longer discriminated for it's lack of blast finisher and it's poorly designed mobility. Out of 4 bad points that were restraining him in PvE, the necromancer, indirectly, got rid of 2 of them. (Well, we could even add survivability fixed in end game PvE content, since in the early days of the game, large health pool or not, minion or not, the end game PvE needed one to be able to dodge at a way higher rate than the necromancer is able to dodge, even now). The end game PvE also needed one to be able to lay area that destroy or ideally reflect projectiles... Ironically, shortly after the necromancer finally got that, the devs thought that it was to good of a mechanism and made it so that bosses projectiles bypass such mechanisms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I don't fail to see people want fairness, I simply recognize there is no need to provide it. Anet decided there would be no holy trinity and lack of DPS balance is just a consequence of that decision. I suspect the feeling is that the success threshold for instanced content is low enough and the necessary tools are broadly applied enough across classes that people can do what they want and still be successful. Arguments using DPS comparisons between classes are not very compelling in this game setup. Still, appealing to meta is a non-starter, even if DPS comparisons ARE compelling because Anet doesn't control it, so why would they plan balancing work around it? IMO, the best they can do to combat 'unfairness' are things like Team buffs in traits and not DPS. e.g. Empower Allies for Warriors. Chasing DPS is a waste of their time as long as they continue to adjust core game mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Oh but I agree and I can clearly see that up to now the best buff for the necromancer in PvE was anet reducing the complexity of the game and removing the necessity for things that other professions have. Thus, like you seem to say, I agree that the next "buff" to the necromancer in PvE will be when anet will et rid of those unique team buff traits/effect that are full of "unfairness". It's all in accord with the necromancer's credo, the very embodiement of boon corruption: _Bring down other to your level, don't try to reach theirs_. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catchyfx.5768 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > I don't fail to see people want fairness, I simply recognize there is no need to provide it. Anet decided there would be no holy trinity.asing DPS is a waste of their time as long as they continue to adjust core game mechanics. *Caugh* Warrior *caugh* Mesmer *caugh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > To be more accurate, the build you are talking about is a build that use traitlines that are mainly defensive (DM/BM) alongside a line which could be seen as offensive (Curse) but that you take for a trait that can only be qualifyed as defensive. On top on that, this spec use gear with 2 defensive stat (toughness and vitality). > > > > > > I think I need to clarify something. You are correct about the traits, but the gear is pure Condi ... or as close as you can get to it (Vipers or Sinister). Even with a full out condi offensive build, I perform BETTER than any tank does. I was replying to someone that was downplaying the strength of the build to make their point stronger, except the relevant comparison wasn't a bunker build in the first place; I suppose the discussion becomes a little off topic then: > > > > > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBLRhG2IDN0Ujd1gbNwejjghaOD7w6GTgAICknQKUCA-ThTAQBU4ACcNlBBUfgYUilOzTR7JAaEwgSwZoBRanAgXs/ohQBHIAAcQAio6PMRphAgaA-e > > > > > > That's an old version, but it's actually light on the defensive traits. I'm not even sure the BM traits are all that useful in it anymore. > > > > Nope Obtena, you wouldn't make it work without blood magic for the sole reason that most of your survivability come from this single trait: vampiric. The minion's only use is to heal you thanks to this very trait. > > > > Vampiric is probably the most op minion trait of the necromancer. This is a bunker build throught and throught. Sure you go your way taking a full damage gear but that's all. Elementalists cry because they are "forced" to do the exact same thing as your build do in PvP, they cry because they are pigeonholing themselve into a defensive and a sustain traitline, respectively water and earth magic. Still there is damage packed in those 2 traitlines. The trade is the same, You take utilities skill for the sole reason of surviving and you trait heavily for bunkering. > > > > Yes! you can spec as an elementalist to have huge sustain the same way the necromancer can spec to have huge sustain. The result is the exact same. The only difference is that one is viewed as OP, while the other is considered a fool. > > I guess we have to disagree because I know what the build is capable of doing as I used it exclusively to meander through HoT. No, it's not dependent on Vampiric; I've played it. Vampiric is insurance. The mobs don't even know you are there if you play right. In fact, you can completely drop Blood for Scourge, have a better build that works exactly the same way with better DPS output. How do I know? Because I've played that build to. This is NOT the same thing as when other classes bunker up because other classes don't bunker up in full condi gear for DPS. The result of this necro build and another classes survival build are not the same, because more often than not, the other classes compromise their DPS to get that survival, the condi necro doesn't, at least not the same extent. My DPS output is maintained. It's not reasonable to say that there isn't anything exceptional about a class with a build that tanks extremely well AND does a very good amount of DPS. > > So the point being is that the OP is lamenting the fact that a very powerful PVE build has been unjustly downgraded ... except he has no perspective. These builds are exceptionally strong when played properly, regardless of what you want to call them or what other classes do. Minions and Death Magic are the reason for this, not Vampiric. Have you ever tried full zerker Dragonhunter or Tempest in HoT? I've tried all, including my condi mm reaper (without blood), newsflash: #efficiency: DH and Tempest are a bit (read a LOT) faster. In low end/map roaming PvE (like HoT) raw DPS is actually your real mechanic dodger (sometimes not just in low-end PvE as well). You don't have to take minion positioning, self positioning, tanking, etc. into mind cause you killed all the mobs before they can even look at you. Again, back to high end(game) PvE, you would expect the Necro be the most efficient in that then, right? .... Obtena, please play ALL professions, and you'll see that for ppl that have played GW2 regularly since start (and played all classes a fair amount), know specific map/dungeon/story/raid/fractal mechanics, in the end (having full ascended zerker or viper gear on your toon), the Necro would be your worst pick in the whole of PvE. Be it low end/roaming PvE, or even all high-end stuff: Raids, Fractals, etc. The main reason that I can think of, why the Necro is so incredibly sub-par in PvE, is probably because it _was_ always doing very good in PvP and WvW. But imo that's a heavily flawed reason for ANet to act like this (**SPLIT**)! Btw, was contemplating about it before, but other reasons could be: - Necro mains keep loyal to their prof, even when they are completely ignored and neutered by ANet. - Marketing wise it's never good to put your resources in Necro while you could put it in your USP: mesmer or general MMO giants like: Warrior and Ele - When you're **completely** new to GW2, I can imagine starting with an MM is actually an OK pick (not the best, I believe tank/bunker Warrior would still be your best pick), cause it's quite forgiving, definitely if you spec it with Vitality (and get the toughness from the death magic traitline), but I really don't see why that would be a strategy choice for ANet, because of so many reasons: i.e. new players choose professions mainly because they have a feeling with it, not because they read somewhere how good it is for a beginner. Or why would you start with an mm who is after (at best) a couple of weeks mainly useless in PvE compared to other classes: you see, you were better off making a Warrior anyway, at least you could've evolved into a banner slave. - But maybe it's just because of the look and feel being imo one of the better ones in the whole game: there are really cool pure Necro outfits :D Or weapons even! But I really think that should NEVER be a part of the balancing equation! And I hope _everyone_ agrees with me there! - Last but not least: because soon, Necro is going to be the best of the best in all (PvE) areas being your number one pick in Raids T4 fractals for the upcoming 5 years (a bit comparable to Mesmer, Warrior or Ele ;) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agrippa Oculus.3726 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > OK, that confirms it to me ... your pushing meta; if your baseline for 'low' damage is you can't get on meta-selective teams for instanced content, then your perspective for what is reasonable is wrong. The game is not balanced according to what is and isn't meta, ever. Necro Condi has MORE DPS now than it did prior to PoF, EVEN with the shades nerf. There is the perspective you need. The power creep is everywhere, not just with the Necro, so that perspective is really easy, and we all agree there (all class supporters), and I wouldnt even call it a perspective cause it's over the WHOLE game. Perspective is imo only interesting if you compare 'stuff' with other comparable 'stuff' and find big differences: Like between classes, for instance ... You were only creating a perspective in time: GW2 in 2012 and GW2 now. It doesnt say anything about the Necro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > - But maybe it's just because of the look and feel being imo one of the better ones in the whole game: there are really cool pure Necro outfits :D Or weapons even! But I really think that should NEVER be a part of the balancing equation! And I hope _everyone_ agrees with me there! Somehow, I'd continue playing necro just for the reaper shroud's look. 'Cause You like a damn great bada** in Reaper shroud! But they sure could revamp it totally and balance it as long as i get to keep my reaper's look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Despond.2174 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Scourge is still incredibly awesome over multiple game modes after the nerf though. I agree with having more gradual nerfs than drastic nerfs that delete a whole build, but scourge isn't even close in being drastically weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > To be more accurate, the build you are talking about is a build that use traitlines that are mainly defensive (DM/BM) alongside a line which could be seen as offensive (Curse) but that you take for a trait that can only be qualifyed as defensive. On top on that, this spec use gear with 2 defensive stat (toughness and vitality). > > > > > > > > I think I need to clarify something. You are correct about the traits, but the gear is pure Condi ... or as close as you can get to it (Vipers or Sinister). Even with a full out condi offensive build, I perform BETTER than any tank does. I was replying to someone that was downplaying the strength of the build to make their point stronger, except the relevant comparison wasn't a bunker build in the first place; I suppose the discussion becomes a little off topic then: > > > > > > > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vRAQRBLRhG2IDN0Ujd1gbNwejjghaOD7w6GTgAICknQKUCA-ThTAQBU4ACcNlBBUfgYUilOzTR7JAaEwgSwZoBRanAgXs/ohQBHIAAcQAio6PMRphAgaA-e > > > > > > > > That's an old version, but it's actually light on the defensive traits. I'm not even sure the BM traits are all that useful in it anymore. > > > > > > Nope Obtena, you wouldn't make it work without blood magic for the sole reason that most of your survivability come from this single trait: vampiric. The minion's only use is to heal you thanks to this very trait. > > > > > > Vampiric is probably the most op minion trait of the necromancer. This is a bunker build throught and throught. Sure you go your way taking a full damage gear but that's all. Elementalists cry because they are "forced" to do the exact same thing as your build do in PvP, they cry because they are pigeonholing themselve into a defensive and a sustain traitline, respectively water and earth magic. Still there is damage packed in those 2 traitlines. The trade is the same, You take utilities skill for the sole reason of surviving and you trait heavily for bunkering. > > > > > > Yes! you can spec as an elementalist to have huge sustain the same way the necromancer can spec to have huge sustain. The result is the exact same. The only difference is that one is viewed as OP, while the other is considered a fool. > > > > I guess we have to disagree because I know what the build is capable of doing as I used it exclusively to meander through HoT. No, it's not dependent on Vampiric; I've played it. Vampiric is insurance. The mobs don't even know you are there if you play right. In fact, you can completely drop Blood for Scourge, have a better build that works exactly the same way with better DPS output. How do I know? Because I've played that build to. This is NOT the same thing as when other classes bunker up because other classes don't bunker up in full condi gear for DPS. The result of this necro build and another classes survival build are not the same, because more often than not, the other classes compromise their DPS to get that survival, the condi necro doesn't, at least not the same extent. My DPS output is maintained. It's not reasonable to say that there isn't anything exceptional about a class with a build that tanks extremely well AND does a very good amount of DPS. > > > > So the point being is that the OP is lamenting the fact that a very powerful PVE build has been unjustly downgraded ... except he has no perspective. These builds are exceptionally strong when played properly, regardless of what you want to call them or what other classes do. Minions and Death Magic are the reason for this, not Vampiric. > > Have you ever tried full zerker Dragonhunter or Tempest in HoT? I've tried all, including my condi mm reaper (without blood), newsflash: #efficiency: DH and Tempest are a bit (read a LOT) faster. In low end/map roaming PvE (like HoT) raw DPS is actually your real mechanic dodger (sometimes not just in low-end PvE as well). You don't have to take minion positioning, self positioning, tanking, etc. into mind cause you killed all the mobs before they can even look at you. You seriously think I'm talking about trash mobs here? You go try that with HP's ... let me know how you do. Anyone that thinks I'm arguing full viper condi core Necro MM build is awesome ... because of how good it downs trash mobs ... is NOT following the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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