Were ALL of the Scourge nerfs really necessary?

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

I get that Scourge was powerful in PvP, and I agree with some of the nerfs as being reasonable. Punishment skills doing less Torment (though did they really need a nerf in PvE?), the .5 second delay on offensive shade skill pulses, the nerf to Path of Corruption, those I get and agree with. These are good changes.

 

But hitting Nefarious Favor on top of everything else? You nerfed that skill so very hard when the problem was just how it interacted with Path of Corruption, which you also nerfed. Nefarious Favor is now 40% of its prior PvP effectiveness and 50% in PvE. Please revert this skill (again, NOT Path of Corruption) back to what it was beforehand. It really seems like overkill.

 

Also, Sand Cascade nerf? Why? I'm pretty sure that literally nobody was complaining about this skill. 25% increase in cooldown for 15% more effect is not a tradeoff that's needed for a skill that was causing no problems. Again, please consider reverting this skill.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Oh no it has a 0.5s animation now you have to actually think about when to use your skills **just like every other class**.

 

Most of the patch was bad but this was one of the few things they did right.

 

[Wichidi.9281]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> I get that Scourge was powerful in PvP, and I agree with some of the nerfs as being reasonable. Punishment skills doing less Torment (though did they really need a nerf in PvE?), the .5 second delay on offensive shade skill pulses, the nerf to Path of Corruption, those I get and agree with. These are good changes.

>

> But hitting Nefarious Favor on top of everything else? You nerfed that skill so very hard when the problem was just how it interacted with Path of Corruption, which you also nerfed. Nefarious Favor is now 40% of its prior PvP effectiveness and 50% in PvE. Please revert this skill (again, NOT Path of Corruption) back to what it was beforehand. It really seems like overkill.

>

> Also, Sand Cascade nerf? Why? I'm pretty sure that literally nobody was complaining about this skill. 25% increase in cooldown for 15% more effect is not a tradeoff that's needed for a skill that was causing no problems. Again, please consider reverting this skill.

 

do u realize that players who are no "scourge main" believe tht scourge didnt get nerfed enough?

[Undo.5091]

@"Master Ketsu.4569" You’re seriously misunderstanding what he’s talking about. The skill they nerfed isn’t offensive by itself. He agrees with the offensive nerfs that were made entirely from a PvP view. The actual condition to boon nerf was a bit odd, at least in my opinion. The skill was overtuned due to Path of Corruption, not so much from the support it offered, although this may have been very different in a WvW setting (in which case this skill should have been split).

 

The Sand Cascade change is also a bit confusing, but again it’s a PvP-related change that increased the cooldown for PvE (which impacts the class’ DPS).

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Master Ketsu.4569" said:

> Oh no it has a 0.5s animation now you have to actually think about when to use your skills **just like every other class**.

>

> Most of the patch was bad but this was one of the few things they did right.

>

 

You didn't read my post at all, did you? That animation was a change I specifically called out as agreeing with in full.

 

> @"Wichidi.9281" said:

 

> do u realize that players who are no "scourge main" believe tht scourge didnt get nerfed enough?

Of course I realize that. These players also haven't played since the patch hit.

[Crinn.7864]

The Scourge nerfs where more than necessary and in all honesty did not go far enough, and this is coming from a necro main.

 

The hit to nefarious favor seems to signal that arenanet is abandoning the pretext that scourge is a support class.

 

> @"Undo.5091" said:

> The Sand Cascade change is also a bit confusing, but again it’s a PvP-related change that increased the cooldown for PvE (which impacts the class’ DPS).

The cascade change actually makes a lot of sense. They are moving away from lots of frequent but small barriers towards stronger but less frequent barriers.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Crinn, you hated Scourge since beta. Your opinion on it doesn't count :P

[Undo.5091]

@"Crinn.7864" Sorry, what I meant to say is that I was confused over the lack of a split on the skill, but Drarnor clarified that it was actually only a PvP/WvW split.

[Axl.8924]

I think they should just bring back the holy trinity of classes so they have roles.I don't trust anet anymore.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Undo.5091" said:

> @"Crinn.7864" Sorry, what I meant to say is that I was confused over the lack of a split on the skill, but Drarnor clarified that it was actually only a PvP/WvW split.

 

No, I screwed up. It was a PvE change as well. I forgot I had Vital Persistance equipped when checking my tooltips.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Crinn, you hated Scourge since beta. Your opinion on it doesn't count :P

 

And I'm feeling very vindicated.

[Adenin.5973]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> The Scourge nerfs where more than necessary and in all honesty did not go far enough, and this is coming from a necro main.

>

> The hit to nefarious favor seems to signal that arenanet is abandoning the pretext that scourge is a support class.

 

And where was the buff in dmg then? Yeah, condi corrupt nerf for PvP is okay but why in PvE, where no one even cares about condi corruption? And why nerfing the support aspect of scourge in all game modes and further nerfing the subpar dmg it had in PvE?

 

Also, as much as I get the reason behind the 0.5s cast delay. It feels now like I am constantly playing with a super high ping.

[Kasdwer.3721]

the first "omg scourge cant carry me anymore, what should i do now? :( " was sooner than i expected

anyone who thinks the scourge nerfs werent neccessary just want to play an OP build without thinking about it

[Arheundel.6451]

Absolutely! 100% necessary and justified!

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Kasdwer.3721" said:

> the first "omg scourge cant carry me anymore, what should i do now? :( " was sooner than i expected

> anyone who thinks the scourge nerfs werent neccessary just want to play an OP build without thinking about it

 

Some of the nerfs were absolutely necessary. I called those out in the OP, namely Path of Corruption nerf, delay on offensive Shade skill effects, and nerf to Punishment torment duration (albeit that last one was not necessary in PvE as well). Those were good nerfs and would have greatly addressed the issues Scourge was causing.

 

The problem is that ANet went much further than that.

[darwinslittlehelper.7182]

The .5second delay for shades, the reduction of torment application, the path of corruption nerf for scourges.....

 

This is a feeling of deja vu. These changes, or ones like them, where suggested by many during the beta test. They were suggested within a couple days of the POF release, most people saying it even could be a bunch of skill splits with PVP/WvW different from PVE.

 

Now it gets changed, months later. The mini patch didn't have them. I am "confused" why not. Surely one of more small changes, to at least try out changes to overperforming or low counterplay skills? Is there some restriction in house from making skill or other changes more often?

 

This isn't meant as criticism for this patch. Even a quick perusal shoes much of it was needed, even if some might not work out the way the devs intended. Some of the changes have me...unsure of the choices or effects. I suspect some strange interactions, and many people will quickly come to conclusions about aspects of this patch, some of which will be well thought out, and others full of rage at perceived targeted destruction of their profession and/build. (see every category in the forum :)

 

The conversion chart changes are a good start, and will likely be tweaked later. The confusion changes to PvP/WvW, ditto. The Mesmer rework is a good start, I would like to see some similar effort for some of the other professions.

 

More often mini patches. Don't wait months for the obvious. Please.

[plushiesoda.8150]

Deleted in protest of anet leaving support ticket #7495730 without answer since October 10th 2019. It's sad how if this were a money-related issue you'd have answered within a couple of hours. At this point I'm not even mad, but disappointed by the mediocrity displayed by your community managers.

[Egorum.9506]

Exactly how are you supposed to get someone off of you now on a scourge? No escapes, no fear (good luck hitting the thief or mes in between evade frames now!), no blocks, no invuln. So now range destroys you, and you have no melee peel? Gg scourge lmao

[Vaqual.7318]

I liked the synergy between "Master of Corruption" and "Nefarious Favor" in PvE, that just felt right. It's by no means a huge thing but it made sense. I also liked triggering shades mid epi cast for some extra spike, dont know yet how I feeld about these 0.5s in PvE yet.

The rest of the tweaks are fair. The cool thing about scourge is that all traits can really work and are viable in different situations and that didn't change with this patch (in my opinion), which is a good thing I guess.

 

> @"Egorum.9506" said:

> Exactly how are you supposed to get someone off of you now on a scourge? No escapes, no fear (good luck hitting the thief or mes in between evade frames now!), no blocks, no invuln. So now range destroys you, and you have no melee peel? Gg scourge lmao

 

Refreshed the page after my post, didn't see yours before, so here a little edit: That is the part that non scourge players never see. They see them being overtuned in teamfights (because supports, especially fb are a bit overtuned imo) but you have no substantial counterplay without the instant shade abilities (or without enough lifeforce, as always^^) against a thief or mes who doesn't make a mistake. But if you are playing on a level where the thieves and mesmers play like that you should be able to expect your team to protect you a bit. It is also in their best interest not to let their necro get ganked between points^^....the teamplay aspect is lost on my players tho.

[Wichidi.9281]

lest be real. the nerfs to scourge were not heavy. they were rather minor and socurge in teamfights is still aids as fuck. a scourge with support at mid still fucks up everything and it could still be nerfed more lol.... i mean yall scourge mains should play rev sometimes and ull be like yeah yeah fine nerf scourge more

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Wichidi.9281" said:

> lest be real. the nerfs to scourge were not heavy. they were rather minor and socurge in teamfights is still aids as kitten. a scourge with support at mid still kitten up everything and it could still be nerfed more lol.... i mean yall scourge mains should play rev sometimes and ull be like yeah yeah fine nerf scourge more

 

So, because Revenant is in a terrible place as acknowledged by basically all players, Scourge should be just as bad?

[tartarus.1082]

Yesssssssss

[Ziggityzog.7389]

As a necro pvp player for 3 almost 4 years now i have to say thank you anet. the nerfs / tells were actually needed so now the kiddos that jumped on scourge just to spam spam can move on now. As far as i can tell this affected the full condi scourge, the power fire scourge somewhat. But with :

 

Vampiric Presence Vampiric Presence: The power contribution from the necromancer to the damage portion of this trait has been increased by about 1,200%. The healing-power contribution from the necromancer has been increased by about 560%. The functionality of this trait has been modified and currently increases its effectiveness by 100% when in shroud. This effect now has a 0.5-second cooldown.

 

It actually gave a decent boots to full power scourge.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Vaqual.7318" said:

> Refreshed the page after my post, didn't see yours before, so here a little edit: That is the part that non scourge players never see. They see them being overtuned in teamfights (because supports, especially fb are a bit overtuned imo) but you have no substantial counterplay without the instant shade abilities (or without enough lifeforce, as always^^) against a thief or mes who doesn't make a mistake. But if you are playing on a level where the thieves and mesmers play like that you should be able to expect your team to protect you a bit. It is also in their best interest not to let their necro get ganked between points^^....the teamplay aspect is lost on my players tho.

 

Thief and Mesmer have hardcountered necromancers of all varieties for years due to the fact that necro is a low mobility + low attack rate class which will always be vulnerable to high mobility + high avoidance classes like thief and Mesmer. The fact that necromancer's innate design leaves it vulnerable to certain other types of design does not in any way justify giving necromancer a elite spec that wields unprecedented offense, target control, area denial, and debuffing power.

 

If you have a problem with thieves and mesmers then you demand thief and Mesmer nerfs, lord knows they could use them. Asking for your class to be given godhood just so you can handle your natural hardcounter is not lead to a balanced game and it certainly does not lead to healthy gameplay.

 

 

[Vaqual.7318]

Crinn I do fully agree with you and I see how my response to egorums post can be interpreted as whining or such things. I appreciate your elaboration tho. The point I was trying to make is, that there are justifiable reasons for frustration on both sides. I was really happy when scourge came out because those super disengagy classes couldnt just wait for DS to decay anymore but in the current state I find that there is no significant difference between reaper or scourge in those matchups. I do acknowledge, that it is absurd to unbalance the entire meta to even out the odds for 2 specific encounters, but these kinds of fights occur often and this will affect the way certain aspects of a class are perceived by a player. After all this is just talk and opinions and I must say kind of rubs me the wrong way when somebody implies that I would be "asking for godhood", based on a post where no demands are made. No hard feelings, just felt there is a misunderstanding here.