Wichidi.9281 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > @"Wichidi.9281" said: > > lest be real. the nerfs to scourge were not heavy. they were rather minor and socurge in teamfights is still aids as kitten. a scourge with support at mid still kitten up everything and it could still be nerfed more lol.... i mean yall scourge mains should play rev sometimes and ull be like yeah yeah fine nerf scourge more > > So, because Revenant is in a terrible place as acknowledged by basically all players, Scourge should be just as bad? well necro has always been in a good spot with reaper since HOT. and scourge has been the ONE dominating build in the past 6 months. "scourge mains" simply have to accept the majority of the players wants a BALANCE rather than one overpowered class that kills basically every with a big blob of aoes that never dies due to firebrand. OP be like: oh no my scourges is not the one single god tier spec harrassing and dominating everything anymore. buff my class back to god tier mode where i can just 2v5 a whole team with a firebrand. pvp shouldnt require skill for playing scourge this is unfair. op should quit crying and realize scourge had to be nerfed no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 My suspicion is that Scourge created so much ill feeling that it was over nerfed. Perhaps intentionally. Look for a buff in the next round. Personally though, I was pretty sick of insta dying to the spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egorum.9506 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 If you were insta dying to scourge, it was a l2p issue. Chain cc, or range-the only defense they had to that was to blow their load. Now you can come in for a stun, dodge the crybaby ring, and freely kill them. They have 0 defensive CDs, and no disengage. If you're still crying about scourge, it's time to admit the problem has been your lack of skill all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarrs.4831 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 40%/50% effectiveness, with the state of condispam as it is, is far too generous. You'll just hit cover conditions half the time. Heavily inclined to agree that the Nefarious Favor nerf should be rethought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abazigal.3679 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Egorum.9506" said: > If you were insta dying to scourge, it was a l2p issue. Chain cc, or range-the only defense they had to that was to blow their load. > > Now you can come in for a stun, dodge the crybaby ring, and freely kill them. They have 0 defensive CDs, and no disengage. If you're still crying about scourge, it's time to admit the problem has been your lack of skill all along. Point was most likely about solo queue issues, not scourge itself. Usually, it took 1 bad setup or 1 bad player to lose to multiple scourge + firebrand together in a snowball way. I've had several matchs that looked like one team doing a hard job, and other one not doing much . Not so entertaining . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delweyn.1309 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 even a team of 3 scourge can win a 1600 mmr player because of anet stupid matchamaking system. so no pb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > @"Vaqual.7318" said: > > Refreshed the page after my post, didn't see yours before, so here a little edit: That is the part that non scourge players never see. They see them being overtuned in teamfights (because supports, especially fb are a bit overtuned imo) but you have no substantial counterplay without the instant shade abilities (or without enough lifeforce, as always^^) against a thief or mes who doesn't make a mistake. But if you are playing on a level where the thieves and mesmers play like that you should be able to expect your team to protect you a bit. It is also in their best interest not to let their necro get ganked between points^^....the teamplay aspect is lost on my players tho. > > Thief and Mesmer have hardcountered necromancers of all varieties for years due to the fact that necro is a low mobility + low attack rate class which will always be vulnerable to high mobility + high avoidance classes like thief and Mesmer. The fact that necromancer's innate design leaves it vulnerable to certain other types of design does not in any way justify giving necromancer a elite spec that wields unprecedented offense, target control, area denial, and debuffing power. > Thats stupid way of thinking Every class has the ability to adapt and engis used to be free kills to other classes like thieves.To say a engi shouldn't ever win because engi is paper and thief is scissor is stupid.Every class should have the ability with the right tools to win, otherwise its unfair and badly designed.A class has multiple abilities and tools, and each tool should open up possibilities for countering another.Anything other than that in my opinion is bad design. > If you have a problem with thieves and mesmers then you demand thief and Mesmer nerfs, lord knows they could use them. Asking for your class to be given godhood just so you can handle your natural hardcounter is not lead to a balanced game and it certainly does not lead to healthy gameplay. I do not wish to freely ask for nerfs to other classes but this solves nothing and just keeps mesmers and teef overlords on the top all over because they are the most popular.It proves that Anet if they play, they probably play thief and mesmer and warrior since they are god mode, and once again kings of pvp as always and pve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Crinn.7864" said: > > > @"Vaqual.7318" said: > > > Refreshed the page after my post, didn't see yours before, so here a little edit: That is the part that non scourge players never see. They see them being overtuned in teamfights (because supports, especially fb are a bit overtuned imo) but you have no substantial counterplay without the instant shade abilities (or without enough lifeforce, as always^^) against a thief or mes who doesn't make a mistake. But if you are playing on a level where the thieves and mesmers play like that you should be able to expect your team to protect you a bit. It is also in their best interest not to let their necro get ganked between points^^....the teamplay aspect is lost on my players tho. > > > > Thief and Mesmer have hardcountered necromancers of all varieties for years due to the fact that necro is a low mobility + low attack rate class which will always be vulnerable to high mobility + high avoidance classes like thief and Mesmer. The fact that necromancer's innate design leaves it vulnerable to certain other types of design does not in any way justify giving necromancer a elite spec that wields unprecedented offense, target control, area denial, and debuffing power. > > > Thats stupid way of thinking > > Every class has the ability to adapt and engis used to be free kills to other classes like thieves.To say a engi shouldn't ever win because engi is paper and thief is scissor is stupid.Every class should have the ability with the right tools to win, otherwise its unfair and badly designed.A class has multiple abilities and tools, and each tool should open up possibilities for countering another.Anything other than that in my opinion is bad design. Nether Scourge or Reaper have ever had the right tools to win against a Thief or Mesmer. Scourge and Reaper both share the same vulnerabilities and the same strengths. However prepatch Scourge's raw offensive power was so high compared to everything else that it could often take on it's natural hardcounters. That's not ok because it meant that Scourge was busted strong against everyone else. I would love to see a necro build that could engage a thief and Mesmer on equal terms, but none of the existing specs have the right tools to do that and allowing necro to take on thieves would require either a totally new elite spec, or a fundamental rework of how the existing elites are designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Nether Scourge or Reaper have ever had the right tools to win against a Thief or Mesmer. Scourge and Reaper both share the same vulnerabilities and the same strengths. However prepatch Scourge's raw offensive power was so high compared to everything else that it could often take on it's natural hardcounters. That's not ok because it meant that Scourge was busted strong against everyone else. I used to sometimes win vs thieves on reaper.It was a case of catching them with their pants down and putting condis on them and forcing them to use their tools.This usually ended with them dying because they sacrifice their stealth to get away from me knowing they have condis, and it was usually because i also had help to take them on.For a thief, the stealth is on a cd and when i played a thief i noticed at least with d/p they have few ways to remove conditions, in fact:I even ran from a necro when he was chasing me.Scourge has some differences too, in that its very aoe centered. and has some range.Reaper is going to be out of shroud and farming energy for quick shroud jump to kill a player, but it drains fast and has a cd. > I would love to see a necro build that could engage a thief and Mesmer on equal terms, but none of the existing specs have the right tools to do that and allowing necro to take on thieves would require either a totally new elite spec, or a fundamental rework of how the existing elites are designed. I think previous reaper before scourge came out was in a good place for pve at least for raids and fractals.It was useful in surviving and they had some useful tools for getting rid of condis.I'm not fond of where reaper went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos.7460 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 yez definetly needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > I used to sometimes win vs thieves on reaper.It was a case of catching them with their pants down and putting condis on them and forcing them to use their tools.This usually ended with them dying because they sacrifice their stealth to get away from me knowing they have condis, and it was usually because i also had help to take them on.For a thief, the stealth is on a cd and when i played a thief i noticed at least with d/p they have few ways to remove conditions, in fact:I even ran from a necro when he was chasing me.Scourge has some differences too, in that its very aoe centered. and has some range.Reaper is going to be out of shroud and farming energy for quick shroud jump to kill a player, but it drains fast and has a cd. Matchups are never a absolute. All things being equal a thief will win against a reaper, but in practice all things are not equal. Variances in skill level, latency, crit and boonrip RNG, trait picks, and available cooldowns all influence the outcome of a specific fight. Also while there are many differences at the surface level between Reaper and Scourge, at the meta level Reaper and Scourge are just two sides of the same coin. Both Reaper and Scourge are low mobility cleave specs focused on teamfighting with a specialty in area boonrip. All of the best matchups for Scourge are also the best matchups for Reaper. All of the worst matchups for Scourge are also the worst matchups for Reaper. They are different in name only. > > I would love to see a necro build that could engage a thief and Mesmer on equal terms, but none of the existing specs have the right tools to do that and allowing necro to take on thieves would require either a totally new elite spec, or a fundamental rework of how the existing elites are designed. > > I think previous reaper before scourge came out was in a good place for pve at least for raids and fractals.It was useful in surviving and they had some useful tools for getting rid of condis.I'm not fond of where reaper went. The problem with Reaper is that it was designed as a heavy bruiser, but in 2016 arenanet decided to convert Reaper into a glass cannon boonripper. At the time this worked because there was a serious need for a dedicated boonripper, but then ArenaNet made Scourge as a purpose-built glass boonripper, and thus completely usurped Reaper's role. Ideally Reaper would get converted back into a bruiser, but I doubt that will happen given that PvE'ers are screaming for more damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadMed.3846 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 I'm really disappointed to see Scourges changes. I was expecting more serious nerfs. The shade AoE circle looks messy on screen and creates too much visual clutter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted February 7, 2018 Author Share Posted February 7, 2018 To be clear, the only change I am asking ANet to revert are the changes _specifically_ to Nefarious Favor. Cutting it from 2 conditions converted to 1 was completely uncalled for when the actual problem with the skill (its interaction with path of Corruption) was also directly addressed in this patch. > @"Wichidi.9281" said: > > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > > @"Wichidi.9281" said: > > > lest be real. the nerfs to scourge were not heavy. they were rather minor and socurge in teamfights is still aids as kitten. a scourge with support at mid still kitten up everything and it could still be nerfed more lol.... i mean yall scourge mains should play rev sometimes and ull be like yeah yeah fine nerf scourge more > > > > So, because Revenant is in a terrible place as acknowledged by basically all players, Scourge should be just as bad? > > well necro has always been in a good spot with reaper since HOT. and scourge has been the ONE dominating build in the past 6 months. "scourge mains" simply have to accept the majority of the players wants a BALANCE rather than one overpowered class that kills basically every with a big blob of aoes that never dies due to firebrand. > > OP be like: oh no my scourges is not the one single god tier spec harrassing and dominating everything anymore. buff my class back to god tier mode where i can just 2v5 a whole team with a firebrand. > > pvp shouldnt require skill for playing scourge this is unfair. > > op should quit crying and realize scourge had to be nerfed no matter what. And another person who didn't actually read the OP! That's at least three in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reikken.4961 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 The 0.5s delay was good, and _much_ needed. The cutting of path of corruption from 2 to 1 was also needed. There are both great changes. Also the big cuts on corrupted condition durations. Also a very good necro nerf. But that's all that was warranted. It didn't need its defense nerfed as well. Most of its defense comes from its offensive pressure and debuffing, and that was heavily nerfed. Nerfing defense (and team support!) directly on top of that is unneeded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 Only thing I don't like about the .5 second delay is that the condition->boon conversion of Nefarious Favor and the Barrier of Sand Cascade is also delayed. I wonder if they can decouple the offensive and defensive/supportive aspects from a single pulse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thatdarnkatz.7168 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 I've been winning all my matches as scourge. I'd say it's still OP and needs more nerf honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwiburner.2186 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"thatdarnkatz.7168" said: > I've been winning all my matches as scourge. I'd say it's still OP and needs more nerf honestly. Oh yeah scourge is still awesome, unbeatable, and everyone else just needs to L2P... that must be why I see your name in the top 250 leaderboard. ...oh wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluri.2653 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Should be nerfed even more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardRider.2980 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"thatdarnkatz.7168" said: > I've been winning all my matches as scourge. I'd say it's still OP and needs more nerf honestly. Naa Scourge has been brought down to a decent level now.. We was abit to OP in PvP and WvW .. Now it's very much a l2p issue for those who weren't experienced on necro and slacked alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worminator.5174 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 "Were ALL of the Scourge nerfs really necessary?" - yes Is 0,5 s delay good- yes. Really just play any other class. Complaining about half of a second delay would also mean, that you have a problem with any skill- animation. Maybe try a ranger gs #2. You will love this telegraphed skill. Most scorches will drop finally to the division, where they belong and only a few good will stay at plat +. I have the feeling, that the op is one of those, who will not stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rukia.4802 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"Kasdwer.3721" said: > the first "omg scourge cant carry me anymore, what should i do now? :( " was sooner than i expected > anyone who thinks the scourge nerfs werent neccessary just want to play an OP build without thinking about it To be fair you really don't have to think to play any class effectively (as long as they're fotm for 6 months straight!) guild wars 2 basically comes down to: spread condi aids in .5sec to destroy enemy team unless they have godly support, spam as much aoe as possible because we play CIRCLEZ BOYZ! And if you're a thief you get the insanely fun job of decapping and +1ing for 2seconds for a quick gank cuz god forbid you spend .01s in an aoe and die instantaneously. I mean fuck this games pvp is just a totaly joke, it's time to drop the fasade and give us the good old greats like Fort Aspenwood , legit GvG (from GW1) and some arenas.. that's all we ask for yet that is still too much for how ever many fucking years this games been out I've lost count already. All I know is I spent my entire childhood basically with the original guild wars and this game is an absolute disgrace in comparison. I really wish you didn't abandon GW1 cuz I would still love to play it but no one enjoys playing a dead game. Support that game for pvp, it has a winning recipe already, no one knows why you freaking abandoned it in the first place. The holy trinity was NEVER a problem in pvp, that was a pve issue! Yes I remember the monk strike, lol hilarious, and I played a warrior (until sin was released in factions) and thank GOD I was in a good guild cuz we all banded together and did the runs on our own. There was a lot of spirit and genuine uniqueness to GW. In GW2, I don't feel a single shred of that. It's like you guys wanted to reinvent the wheel for no reason (like the new starwars movies!) but keep very little of the same concepts and think "oh the fans will love this, it's JUST like the prequel hehehehehueheueueheuifehfuefhe" I mean my god how dense can you guys be. /ENDRANT! You can reinvent all you want but a square just don't work as good as a circle. You need to bite the bullet and replace this entire system with something representible or I gurantee that pvp will remain dead now and forever, not only that, but a fackin joke as well. *I know none of you are the OG devs so you don't know any better, but I digress.* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 I personally think the nerfs went way overboard and while some were needed it went too far.It also hurts pve as well. Personally i think it was a l2p issue.How hard is it to not stay near the shades and get condis? These nerfs wouldn't be needed if people who played who were noobs had half a brain cell and avoided the attacks and or learned how to counter necro properly, but i guess its easier to go on the forums and whine until a counter becomes easily hardcountered by everything right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoknocks.4935 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 In my opinion now scourge is balanced and can be countered. Scourge mains says it was nerfed to the ground just because now they can't spam anymore like before and still win. Of course if you bring a profession from god cancer level to balance and counterable seems shitty. A class who promoted braindead spams for months finally got what it deserves, so now learn to use hands and brain to press keys on the keyboard and don't complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"worminator.5174" said: > "Were ALL of the Scourge nerfs really necessary?" - yes > Is 0,5 s delay good- yes. Really just play any other class. Complaining about half of a second delay would also mean, that you have a problem with any skill- animation. Maybe try a ranger gs #2. You will love this telegraphed skill. Most scorches will drop finally to the division, where they belong and only a few good will stay at plat +. I have the feeling, that the op is one of those, who will not stay. Number4 who didn't read the OP! Can we get a number 5? I guess so! Congratulations @"whoknocks.4935" ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoknocks.4935 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > @"worminator.5174" said: > > "Were ALL of the Scourge nerfs really necessary?" - yes > > Is 0,5 s delay good- yes. Really just play any other class. Complaining about half of a second delay would also mean, that you have a problem with any skill- animation. Maybe try a ranger gs #2. You will love this telegraphed skill. Most scorches will drop finally to the division, where they belong and only a few good will stay at plat +. I have the feeling, that the op is one of those, who will not stay. > > Number4 who didn't read the OP! Can we get a number 5? > > I guess so! Congratulations @"whoknocks.4935" ! Just get out of here if you don't bring anything useful to the thread but just accuse other for what obscure reason. Your class got nerfed and now will fade down to silver... sorry for you if you are salty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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