Bofouci.1320 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 I am only left with a couple simple questions that I would like the dev's the answer: 1. Is the confusion issue going to be fixed for the Mirage class in PVE (all skills and traits that utilize confusion) or replaced will it be replaced with a comparable condi DoT mechanic that is not dependent on NPC skill activation (which does not occur often enough to be useful)? 2. When can we expect to see this change occur? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kas.3509 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Also they should never make a change BEFORE they at least try to balance it out.... I understand a LITTLE bit under or overpowered but not completely useless in one big game part. What if someone is mirage main, they can't play until it's fixed? That's just sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bofouci.1320 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"Kas.3509" said: > Also they should never make a change BEFORE they at least try to balance it out.... I understand a LITTLE bit under or overpowered but not completely useless in one big game part. What if someone is mirage main, they can't play until it's fixed? That's just sad. My main is a mirage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbitUp.8294 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters. > > > > > > > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous. > > > > > > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it. > > > > You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world. > > Confusion has a flavor, along with the builds behind it, it fulfills a fantasy of a character so beguiling and tricky they can make an enemy defeat themselves. For a lot of players, it is what makes a mesmer, a mesmer. And now, that fantasy is gone, and with it the mesmer, removed from the game in the name of PvP players, and the devs don't give a crap, because players like you parroting the word "viable" are the only PvE players they seem to care about at all these days. What flavour? There was no flavour in pve, confusion was nothing more than a purple bleed that was doing an extra proc once every few seconds, when the mob remembered to cast a skill. > @"Kas.3509" said: > Also they should never make a change BEFORE they at least try to balance it out.... I understand a LITTLE bit under or overpowered but not completely useless in one big game part. What if someone is mirage main, they can't play until it's fixed? That's just sad. They can switch to staff and play just fine. There is an alternative, raid-viable even. For other classes, a nerf to a certain build/playstyles usually means selfing that build. For mirage, you only need to change your weapon and traits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bofouci.1320 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > > > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > > > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters. > > > > > > > > > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous. > > > > > > > > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it. > > > > > > You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world. > > > > Confusion has a flavor, along with the builds behind it, it fulfills a fantasy of a character so beguiling and tricky they can make an enemy defeat themselves. For a lot of players, it is what makes a mesmer, a mesmer. And now, that fantasy is gone, and with it the mesmer, removed from the game in the name of PvP players, and the devs don't give a crap, because players like you parroting the word "viable" are the only PvE players they seem to care about at all these days. > > What flavour? There was no flavour in pve, confusion was nothing more than a purple bleed that was doing an extra proc once every few seconds, when the mob remembered to cast a skill. > > > @"Kas.3509" said: > > Also they should never make a change BEFORE they at least try to balance it out.... I understand a LITTLE bit under or overpowered but not completely useless in one big game part. What if someone is mirage main, they can't play until it's fixed? That's just sad. > > They can switch to staff and play just fine. There is an alternative, raid-viable even. > > For other classes, a nerf to a certain build/playstyles usually means selfing that build. For mirage, you only need to change your weapon and traits. You're missing the point completely... We should not have to switch to staff or re-gear. We're not bums looking for a handout here we invest time and money into this product and the product we paid for is now be changed on us in a negative manner. So, if you want to go play with your staff by all means do so but don't undermine our views just because they are not in line with yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbitUp.8294 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"Bofouci.1320" said: > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > > > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > > > > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > > > > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters. > > > > > > > > > > > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous. > > > > > > > > > > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it. > > > > > > > > You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world. > > > > > > Confusion has a flavor, along with the builds behind it, it fulfills a fantasy of a character so beguiling and tricky they can make an enemy defeat themselves. For a lot of players, it is what makes a mesmer, a mesmer. And now, that fantasy is gone, and with it the mesmer, removed from the game in the name of PvP players, and the devs don't give a crap, because players like you parroting the word "viable" are the only PvE players they seem to care about at all these days. > > > > What flavour? There was no flavour in pve, confusion was nothing more than a purple bleed that was doing an extra proc once every few seconds, when the mob remembered to cast a skill. > > > > > @"Kas.3509" said: > > > Also they should never make a change BEFORE they at least try to balance it out.... I understand a LITTLE bit under or overpowered but not completely useless in one big game part. What if someone is mirage main, they can't play until it's fixed? That's just sad. > > > > They can switch to staff and play just fine. There is an alternative, raid-viable even. > > > > For other classes, a nerf to a certain build/playstyles usually means selfing that build. For mirage, you only need to change your weapon and traits. > > You're missing the point completely... We should not have to switch to staff or re-gear. We're not bums looking for a handout here we invest time and money into this product and the product we paid for is now be changed on us in a negative manner. So, if you want to go play with your staff by all means do so but don't undermine our views just because they are not in line with yours. I'm not missing the point, you are missing the touch with reality. This is an MMO and like all games of the genre, balance is in constant flux. This is true for every class, and nerfs can mean that a certain build or playstyle no longer works. Here, you don't even have to regear. Yes, your view is different, because your view is a stubborn mentality of refusing to adapt and change even minor aspects of your build and playstyle, because you want to hold axe and do purple bleeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bofouci.1320 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > @"Bofouci.1320" said: > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > > > > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > > > > > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > > > > > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous. > > > > > > > > > > > > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it. > > > > > > > > > > You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world. > > > > > > > > Confusion has a flavor, along with the builds behind it, it fulfills a fantasy of a character so beguiling and tricky they can make an enemy defeat themselves. For a lot of players, it is what makes a mesmer, a mesmer. And now, that fantasy is gone, and with it the mesmer, removed from the game in the name of PvP players, and the devs don't give a crap, because players like you parroting the word "viable" are the only PvE players they seem to care about at all these days. > > > > > > What flavour? There was no flavour in pve, confusion was nothing more than a purple bleed that was doing an extra proc once every few seconds, when the mob remembered to cast a skill. > > > > > > > @"Kas.3509" said: > > > > Also they should never make a change BEFORE they at least try to balance it out.... I understand a LITTLE bit under or overpowered but not completely useless in one big game part. What if someone is mirage main, they can't play until it's fixed? That's just sad. > > > > > > They can switch to staff and play just fine. There is an alternative, raid-viable even. > > > > > > For other classes, a nerf to a certain build/playstyles usually means selfing that build. For mirage, you only need to change your weapon and traits. > > > > You're missing the point completely... We should not have to switch to staff or re-gear. We're not bums looking for a handout here we invest time and money into this product and the product we paid for is now be changed on us in a negative manner. So, if you want to go play with your staff by all means do so but don't undermine our views just because they are not in line with yours. > > I'm not missing the point, you are missing the touch with reality. This is an MMO and like all games of the genre, balance is in constant flux. This is true for every class, and nerfs can mean that a certain build or playstyle no longer works. > > Here, you don't even have to regear. Yes, your view is different, because your view is a stubborn mentality of refusing to adapt and change even minor aspects of your build and playstyle, because you want to hold axe and do purple bleeds. I could care less about the purple bleeds. Yes I do care about the axe; absolutely. The other aspect is that the gameplay is completely different. I have a staff that I am using right now and it is not the same. With axe you're more engaged in the hitbox to do damage and are forced to use evasions so you're not taking damage all the time; with staff you standing way out of the hitbox with 1200 range and when you do get in the box you're skills move you back out. This is not a minor change; axe is the main component of mirage. Axe proficiency is the first unlock in the trait line. I agree that this is true for every class and if I had other mains that were impacted so deeply on the core of their elite spec I would be all over their forums voicing the same concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newsin.1945 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Personally I am enjoying the Power Chrono build. While I get peoples frustration, didn't most people know that this was going to probably happen at some point? But they could of left it in and many people would still be upset. They can't win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicko.1204 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"Newsin.1945" said: > Personally I am enjoying the Power Chrono build. While I get peoples frustration, didn't most people know that this was going to probably happen at some point? But they could of left it in and many people would still be upset. They can't win. Know that confusion will become useless in PvE overnight?No,nobody was expecting something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. "As soon as the process allows" needs to be *"before* we take the Confusion damage away." Not "many months after. If you can't implement this within the next few weeks, then revert the Confusion changes until you can. Also, Torment is not an acceptable substitute, since Torment is based on the enemy moving, which they don't always do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbitUp.8294 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"Bofouci.1320" said: > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > @"Bofouci.1320" said: > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > > > > > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > > > > > > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > > > > > > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world. > > > > > > > > > > Confusion has a flavor, along with the builds behind it, it fulfills a fantasy of a character so beguiling and tricky they can make an enemy defeat themselves. For a lot of players, it is what makes a mesmer, a mesmer. And now, that fantasy is gone, and with it the mesmer, removed from the game in the name of PvP players, and the devs don't give a crap, because players like you parroting the word "viable" are the only PvE players they seem to care about at all these days. > > > > > > > > What flavour? There was no flavour in pve, confusion was nothing more than a purple bleed that was doing an extra proc once every few seconds, when the mob remembered to cast a skill. > > > > > > > > > @"Kas.3509" said: > > > > > Also they should never make a change BEFORE they at least try to balance it out.... I understand a LITTLE bit under or overpowered but not completely useless in one big game part. What if someone is mirage main, they can't play until it's fixed? That's just sad. > > > > > > > > They can switch to staff and play just fine. There is an alternative, raid-viable even. > > > > > > > > For other classes, a nerf to a certain build/playstyles usually means selfing that build. For mirage, you only need to change your weapon and traits. > > > > > > You're missing the point completely... We should not have to switch to staff or re-gear. We're not bums looking for a handout here we invest time and money into this product and the product we paid for is now be changed on us in a negative manner. So, if you want to go play with your staff by all means do so but don't undermine our views just because they are not in line with yours. > > > > I'm not missing the point, you are missing the touch with reality. This is an MMO and like all games of the genre, balance is in constant flux. This is true for every class, and nerfs can mean that a certain build or playstyle no longer works. > > > > Here, you don't even have to regear. Yes, your view is different, because your view is a stubborn mentality of refusing to adapt and change even minor aspects of your build and playstyle, because you want to hold axe and do purple bleeds. > > I could care less about the purple bleeds. Yes I do care about the axe; absolutely. The other aspect is that the gameplay is completely different. I have a staff that I am using right now and it is not the same. With axe you're more engaged in the hitbox to do damage and are forced to use evasions so you're not taking damage all the time; with staff you standing way out of the hitbox with 1200 range and when you do get in the box you're skills move you back out. This is not a minor change; axe is the main component of mirage. Axe proficiency is the first unlock in the trait line. I agree that this is true for every class and if I had other mains that were impacted so deeply on the core of their elite spec I would be all over their forums voicing the same concerns. > Axe is not the only bad spec weapon. DH longbow, weaver sword, holo sword. Just off the top of my head. You are lucky mirage and axe are part of PoF, so anet will continue to focus on improving them, like it happened before and like it happens with the 2 swords, deadeye rifle and others. You even have confirmation that they will by making it torment-focused. While they couldn't care less about DH longbow being useless in all game modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bofouci.1320 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > @"Bofouci.1320" said: > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > > @"Bofouci.1320" said: > > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > > > > > > > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > > > > > > > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world. > > > > > > > > > > > > Confusion has a flavor, along with the builds behind it, it fulfills a fantasy of a character so beguiling and tricky they can make an enemy defeat themselves. For a lot of players, it is what makes a mesmer, a mesmer. And now, that fantasy is gone, and with it the mesmer, removed from the game in the name of PvP players, and the devs don't give a crap, because players like you parroting the word "viable" are the only PvE players they seem to care about at all these days. > > > > > > > > > > What flavour? There was no flavour in pve, confusion was nothing more than a purple bleed that was doing an extra proc once every few seconds, when the mob remembered to cast a skill. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kas.3509" said: > > > > > > Also they should never make a change BEFORE they at least try to balance it out.... I understand a LITTLE bit under or overpowered but not completely useless in one big game part. What if someone is mirage main, they can't play until it's fixed? That's just sad. > > > > > > > > > > They can switch to staff and play just fine. There is an alternative, raid-viable even. > > > > > > > > > > For other classes, a nerf to a certain build/playstyles usually means selfing that build. For mirage, you only need to change your weapon and traits. > > > > > > > > You're missing the point completely... We should not have to switch to staff or re-gear. We're not bums looking for a handout here we invest time and money into this product and the product we paid for is now be changed on us in a negative manner. So, if you want to go play with your staff by all means do so but don't undermine our views just because they are not in line with yours. > > > > > > I'm not missing the point, you are missing the touch with reality. This is an MMO and like all games of the genre, balance is in constant flux. This is true for every class, and nerfs can mean that a certain build or playstyle no longer works. > > > > > > Here, you don't even have to regear. Yes, your view is different, because your view is a stubborn mentality of refusing to adapt and change even minor aspects of your build and playstyle, because you want to hold axe and do purple bleeds. > > > > I could care less about the purple bleeds. Yes I do care about the axe; absolutely. The other aspect is that the gameplay is completely different. I have a staff that I am using right now and it is not the same. With axe you're more engaged in the hitbox to do damage and are forced to use evasions so you're not taking damage all the time; with staff you standing way out of the hitbox with 1200 range and when you do get in the box you're skills move you back out. This is not a minor change; axe is the main component of mirage. Axe proficiency is the first unlock in the trait line. I agree that this is true for every class and if I had other mains that were impacted so deeply on the core of their elite spec I would be all over their forums voicing the same concerns. > > > > Axe is not the only bad spec weapon. DH longbow, weaver sword, holo sword. Just off the top of my head. You are lucky mirage and axe are part of PoF, so anet will continue to focus on improving them, like it happened before and like it happens with the 2 swords, deadeye rifle and others. You even have confirmation that they will by making it torment-focused. > > While they couldn't care less about DH longbow being useless in all game modes. I get that and while I empathize for those other classes situation I simply don't have a vested interest. Good, bad or indifferent because I do not main them. I did see the dev post concerning making axe torment focus but they failed to provide a lot more detail that is needed for this to be a viable solution to the mirage line which contains many other skills and traits that rely on confusion as well. This is so much more than just a battle to keep our axes striking down confusion in PVE has a negative effect on the mirage spec itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoser.7245 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > > > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > > > > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > > > > > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > > > > > > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > > > > > > > > Everyone is looking at this the wrong way IMO. The problem isn't that the DoT does too little. It's that the punishment does too little in PvE. Making confusion a boring DoT for pve would be a step backwards. Increase the Burst to make it so well timed bursts of confusion can actually keep up in DPS with other builds, and it would be fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The npcs do not attack often enough and many times they will die under the attack of other players before your confusion causes them significant damage, which means that you lose that farm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody cares about NPCs, since any build can handle them, even current axe. This is only a relevant issue for high level fractal content and raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do not generalize, I care and I am sure that many players also, especially those who do not play elitist modes, I mean hardcore... > > > > > > > > > > But why would you even need to change anything for open world play, when the axe or anything else is already sufficient for the easiest part of the game? > > > > > > > > Because as a developer and professional ethic, you must balance taking into account not only the different game modes but all the players whatever the content they play equally, without segregation of any kind. Everyone has the right that the improvements made affect them positively. It is my opinion being one of them. > > > > > > No, not really. The developers can balance for whatever mode they want. You as a player, a minority player, have no right to demand that the developers make a specific weapon slightly more viable in a specific mode where everything is already viable. You have tons of tools as a mesmer now to get through open world pve. There's no reason that your specific needs should make things unfun for the vast majority of players playing raids, fractals, and PvP modes. > > > > > > Also, the suggestion that anet is acting unethically is dubious at best. > > > > Are you playing with my words without no sense? I made a premise about how the developers in general, not specifically of this game, must be impartial for all players when program and balance the content, without made any accusation or suggest anything as you seem to be insinuating I said. > > > > In any case, I have clearly stated that when changes are made, it should be ensured that it is for the benefit of all players without favoritism because all players have the right to have fun and things can be improved for some game modes without harming others. And one of the reasons why split the balance between game modes is good, as they are doing. It doesn't matter if raid/incursions or pvp is played by a minority, they are equally important, but not more or less than others. I claim just the opposite of what you say I said. I do not see what's wrong with that, or you did not understand what I tried to say or you try to turn around what I really said in your favor. > > > > About the confusion, they should consider revert the change in PVE, at least temporally and study better what to do in the future, and if possible colaborating and taking into account the players opinion. I hope that they give us good news or a solution about this soon. > > No. Let's examine the core premise of your argument. > > "Developers should balance for all players without any favoritism" > > This is not true. Take it to the absurd. Pretend that I am a player whose goal is to complete the entire game and be competitive in pvp and pve without using anything other than auto attack. It would be ridiculous to assume that anet should balance the game for me. It is likewise strange that you should expect anet to balance the game for you. You are a player who does not participate in wvw, fractals, raids, or pvp by your own admission. Further, by your own admission, you will not use the effective power builds for your chosen gametype. Instead, like me you insist on inky using certain tools. > > Base on these, you're in an extreme minority. Balancing the game the way you want it would make it less fun for a majority. So why should anet choose you over many? I have the impression that you are wrong believing that some specific content must be the reference for balance the skills, sounds like a segregation to be honest aside split pve/wvw/pvp. When you design a game like gw2, you entablish limits and values for the builds and base stats (attributes like power, condition damage, toughness), equipment, etc and how all scale for each level. Then you create the formulas to entablish the behavior and scalability of the, damage, conditions, boons, buffs, and the skills to make them unique and test them for adjust the initial numbers in a test environment. But after that when you start to implements the content (maps, events, fractals, etc) **is the content what is in reality balanced/adjusted to be more or less challenging but realizable within the established limits for each level including the mechanics designed to work with specific skills**, not the skills ajusted to the content created, about all with a fixed maximun character's level and equipment cap, because if you not balance the "high end" content trying to make it challenging, the tendency usually ends with the increase of the necessary damage and stats to accomplish it and that would be unacceptable. When you balance the skills, conditions, etc, you don't do it based on the content, you do it to adjust them inside the determined limits if they are overperforming or underperforming about what was expected. In this case taking into account the competitive wvw and pvp modes splitting it properly. And if something is not working as intented, instead of balance the numbers, you can change it's behaviour (formulas) to a new one which implies a redesign. Of course, along the life of the game and to expand it properly those limits can be updated a bit. In the end, the developers will decide how they want to balance their game. The simplest thing to do about the confusion would be to revert or improve it in pve which is what seems more reasonable to not have to change a lot of things, but they, in principle, seem to prefer the opposite so we will have to wait and see what decision they make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlashugged.7642 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"Zoser.7245" said: > > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > > > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > > > > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > > > > > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > > > > > > > > > Everyone is looking at this the wrong way IMO. The problem isn't that the DoT does too little. It's that the punishment does too little in PvE. Making confusion a boring DoT for pve would be a step backwards. Increase the Burst to make it so well timed bursts of confusion can actually keep up in DPS with other builds, and it would be fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The npcs do not attack often enough and many times they will die under the attack of other players before your confusion causes them significant damage, which means that you lose that farm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody cares about NPCs, since any build can handle them, even current axe. This is only a relevant issue for high level fractal content and raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do not generalize, I care and I am sure that many players also, especially those who do not play elitist modes, I mean hardcore... > > > > > > > > > > > > But why would you even need to change anything for open world play, when the axe or anything else is already sufficient for the easiest part of the game? > > > > > > > > > > Because as a developer and professional ethic, you must balance taking into account not only the different game modes but all the players whatever the content they play equally, without segregation of any kind. Everyone has the right that the improvements made affect them positively. It is my opinion being one of them. > > > > > > > > No, not really. The developers can balance for whatever mode they want. You as a player, a minority player, have no right to demand that the developers make a specific weapon slightly more viable in a specific mode where everything is already viable. You have tons of tools as a mesmer now to get through open world pve. There's no reason that your specific needs should make things unfun for the vast majority of players playing raids, fractals, and PvP modes. > > > > > > > > Also, the suggestion that anet is acting unethically is dubious at best. > > > > > > Are you playing with my words without no sense? I made a premise about how the developers in general, not specifically of this game, must be impartial for all players when program and balance the content, without made any accusation or suggest anything as you seem to be insinuating I said. > > > > > > In any case, I have clearly stated that when changes are made, it should be ensured that it is for the benefit of all players without favoritism because all players have the right to have fun and things can be improved for some game modes without harming others. And one of the reasons why split the balance between game modes is good, as they are doing. It doesn't matter if raid/incursions or pvp is played by a minority, they are equally important, but not more or less than others. I claim just the opposite of what you say I said. I do not see what's wrong with that, or you did not understand what I tried to say or you try to turn around what I really said in your favor. > > > > > > About the confusion, they should consider revert the change in PVE, at least temporally and study better what to do in the future, and if possible colaborating and taking into account the players opinion. I hope that they give us good news or a solution about this soon. > > > > No. Let's examine the core premise of your argument. > > > > "Developers should balance for all players without any favoritism" > > > > This is not true. Take it to the absurd. Pretend that I am a player whose goal is to complete the entire game and be competitive in pvp and pve without using anything other than auto attack. It would be ridiculous to assume that anet should balance the game for me. It is likewise strange that you should expect anet to balance the game for you. You are a player who does not participate in wvw, fractals, raids, or pvp by your own admission. Further, by your own admission, you will not use the effective power builds for your chosen gametype. Instead, like me you insist on inky using certain tools. > > > > Base on these, you're in an extreme minority. Balancing the game the way you want it would make it less fun for a majority. So why should anet choose you over many? > > I have the impression that you are wrong believing that some specific content must be the reference for balance the skills, sounds like a segregation to be honest aside split pve/wvw/pvp. > > When you design a game like gw2, you entablish limits and values for the builds and base stats (attributes like power, condition damage, toughness), equipment, etc and how all scale for each level. Then you create the formulas to entablish the behavior and scalability of the, damage, conditions, boons, buffs, and the skills to make them unique and test them for adjust the initial numbers in a test environment. But after that when you start to implements the content (maps, events, fractals, etc) **is the content what is in reality balanced/adjusted to be more or less challenging but realizable within the established limits for each level including the mechanics designed to work with specific skills**, not the skills ajusted to the content created, about all with a fixed maximun character's level and equipment cap, because if you not balance the "high end" content trying to make it challenging, the tendency usually ends with the increase of the necessary damage and stats to accomplish it and that would be unacceptable. When you balance the skills, conditions, etc, you don't do it based on the content, you do it to adjust them inside the determined limits if they are overperforming or underperforming about what was expected. In this case taking into account the competitive wvw and pvp modes splitting it properly. And if something is not working as intented, instead of balance the numbers, you can change it's behaviour (formulas) to a new one which implies a redesign. Of course, along the life of the game and to expand it properly those limits can be updated a bit. > > In the end, the developers will decide how they want to balance their game. The simplest thing to do about the confusion would be to revert or improve it in pve which is what seems more reasonable to not have to change a lot of things, but they, in principle, seem to prefer the opposite so we will have to wait and see what decision they make. I am having extreme difficulty understanding you at this point. If I get your position wrong, then please understand that it is due to the broken nature of your English. That said, I think I agree mostly. Pvp, pve splits are fine. But the pve side of the equation should not be made unfunded for raids because you want a passive dps option for open world stuff. You can literally run anything in open world pve and succeed, and it is not competitive, so balance is not a relevant consideration there. Raids and fractals however are more difficult, and builds matter. They are also the majority of pve content that people actually do. That is why the confusion change should not be reverted. Dps confusion is boring for those modes. Make confusion stronger by increasing the burst however, and it becomes interesting. If this wouldn't work for open world pve, that is hardly relevant, because everything else already does. Making a majority of pve players have less fun by reverting confusion to its boring dot form, in order to cater to a minority of pve players who already have more than enough options is dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kas.3509 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 The problem I see is not mirage axe build nerf. Confusion is something that identifies mesmer for me. Removing it is removing the flavor. Replacing it with something different is just bad concept and not resolving X other skills that use confusion problem... not only on mesmer. Just give back the old confusion from before this update to pve only and leave it how it is right now in pvp, then balance it out a little if needed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoser.7245 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > @"Zoser.7245" said: > > > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > > > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > > > > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > > > > > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > > > > > > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Heika.5403" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"atlashugged.7642" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Everyone is looking at this the wrong way IMO. The problem isn't that the DoT does too little. It's that the punishment does too little in PvE. Making confusion a boring DoT for pve would be a step backwards. Increase the Burst to make it so well timed bursts of confusion can actually keep up in DPS with other builds, and it would be fine. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The npcs do not attack often enough and many times they will die under the attack of other players before your confusion causes them significant damage, which means that you lose that farm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody cares about NPCs, since any build can handle them, even current axe. This is only a relevant issue for high level fractal content and raids. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do not generalize, I care and I am sure that many players also, especially those who do not play elitist modes, I mean hardcore... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why would you even need to change anything for open world play, when the axe or anything else is already sufficient for the easiest part of the game? > > > > > > > > > > > > Because as a developer and professional ethic, you must balance taking into account not only the different game modes but all the players whatever the content they play equally, without segregation of any kind. Everyone has the right that the improvements made affect them positively. It is my opinion being one of them. > > > > > > > > > > No, not really. The developers can balance for whatever mode they want. You as a player, a minority player, have no right to demand that the developers make a specific weapon slightly more viable in a specific mode where everything is already viable. You have tons of tools as a mesmer now to get through open world pve. There's no reason that your specific needs should make things unfun for the vast majority of players playing raids, fractals, and PvP modes. > > > > > > > > > > Also, the suggestion that anet is acting unethically is dubious at best. > > > > > > > > Are you playing with my words without no sense? I made a premise about how the developers in general, not specifically of this game, must be impartial for all players when program and balance the content, without made any accusation or suggest anything as you seem to be insinuating I said. > > > > > > > > In any case, I have clearly stated that when changes are made, it should be ensured that it is for the benefit of all players without favoritism because all players have the right to have fun and things can be improved for some game modes without harming others. And one of the reasons why split the balance between game modes is good, as they are doing. It doesn't matter if raid/incursions or pvp is played by a minority, they are equally important, but not more or less than others. I claim just the opposite of what you say I said. I do not see what's wrong with that, or you did not understand what I tried to say or you try to turn around what I really said in your favor. > > > > > > > > About the confusion, they should consider revert the change in PVE, at least temporally and study better what to do in the future, and if possible colaborating and taking into account the players opinion. I hope that they give us good news or a solution about this soon. > > > > > > No. Let's examine the core premise of your argument. > > > > > > "Developers should balance for all players without any favoritism" > > > > > > This is not true. Take it to the absurd. Pretend that I am a player whose goal is to complete the entire game and be competitive in pvp and pve without using anything other than auto attack. It would be ridiculous to assume that anet should balance the game for me. It is likewise strange that you should expect anet to balance the game for you. You are a player who does not participate in wvw, fractals, raids, or pvp by your own admission. Further, by your own admission, you will not use the effective power builds for your chosen gametype. Instead, like me you insist on inky using certain tools. > > > > > > Base on these, you're in an extreme minority. Balancing the game the way you want it would make it less fun for a majority. So why should anet choose you over many? > > > > I have the impression that you are wrong believing that some specific content must be the reference for balance the skills, sounds like a segregation to be honest aside split pve/wvw/pvp. > > > > When you design a game like gw2, you entablish limits and values for the builds and base stats (attributes like power, condition damage, toughness), equipment, etc and how all scale for each level. Then you create the formulas to entablish the behavior and scalability of the, damage, conditions, boons, buffs, and the skills to make them unique and test them for adjust the initial numbers in a test environment. But after that when you start to implements the content (maps, events, fractals, etc) **is the content what is in reality balanced/adjusted to be more or less challenging but realizable within the established limits for each level including the mechanics designed to work with specific skills**, not the skills ajusted to the content created, about all with a fixed maximun character's level and equipment cap, because if you not balance the "high end" content trying to make it challenging, the tendency usually ends with the increase of the necessary damage and stats to accomplish it and that would be unacceptable. When you balance the skills, conditions, etc, you don't do it based on the content, you do it to adjust them inside the determined limits if they are overperforming or underperforming about what was expected. In this case taking into account the competitive wvw and pvp modes splitting it properly. And if something is not working as intented, instead of balance the numbers, you can change it's behaviour (formulas) to a new one which implies a redesign. Of course, along the life of the game and to expand it properly those limits can be updated a bit. > > > > In the end, the developers will decide how they want to balance their game. The simplest thing to do about the confusion would be to revert or improve it in pve which is what seems more reasonable to not have to change a lot of things, but they, in principle, seem to prefer the opposite so we will have to wait and see what decision they make. > > I am having extreme difficulty understanding you at this point. If I get your position wrong, then please understand that it is due to the broken nature of your English. > > That said, I think I agree mostly. Pvp, pve splits are fine. But the pve side of the equation should not be made unfunded for raids because you want a passive dps option for open world stuff. You can literally run anything in open world pve and succeed, and it is not competitive, so balance is not a relevant consideration there. Raids and fractals however are more difficult, and builds matter. They are also the majority of pve content that people actually do. > > That is why the confusion change should not be reverted. Dps confusion is boring for those modes. Make confusion stronger by increasing the burst however, and it becomes interesting. If this wouldn't work for open world pve, that is hardly relevant, because everything else already does. > > Making a majority of pve players have less fun by reverting confusion to its boring dot form, in order to cater to a minority of pve players who already have more than enough options is dumb. Knowing that Karl mentioned that they consider confusion more a hex condition, probably the'll test it improving the "Damage on skill activation" like you say, plus other alternatives, for me it's ok if the result make the confusion good enough again in pve, if they see that not, revert it only in pve will make it works again because the alternative mentioned by Karl and their plan was move weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion. I don't want to lose the confusion as it fits perfectly with the mesmer, but if they do i'll adapt to whatever they give us if it works well. Updated: It's done...: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/27909/9-2-18-update-notes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Well axe has torment now. :open_mouth: That was pretty fast. A bit sad to lose out on the confusion in wvw - will have to see how it plays first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenndevis.8327 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. This hex style condition is what I love about confusion. But sadly it just doesn't work in PvE. The changes to confusion that were made in the past (where the dot effect became stronger) was a nice change to make confusion viable in PvE while still keeping some of the damage on the skill use part to kinda keep it's niche. There is already a split balance between PvE & PvP/WvW so why go for a complete 180° on confusion? I feel like a nerf to confusion duration or mirage's confusion application be a bit more of a "gentle" nerf while keeping confusion relevant in PvE rather than making it almost completely useless? But I guess things will get balanced out in the end. I like the change to torment on Axe. I really like the idea of making confusion a really strong short term condition that punishes people for using skills for PvP. I love the idea of it, however that's not how it feels like in PvP. It doesn't do enough damage to make people be careful of using skills & it falls off after a few seconds anyway. If confusion is supposed to be a hex type of condition that tries to disable people or punish those who keep using skills (and mentally challenges people to make a decision) then it needs to be much stronger. And no matter what the enemy does, it should give you an advantage. Whether they stop using skills or keep using skills. But I feel that right now it doesn't give you enough advantage either way. 1) The damage isn't high enough to make people wanna stop using skills. 2) Mesmer can't punish people for not using skills enough in a condi build. When they do stop using skills it's not a big deal because it falls off really fast & mesmer doesn't really have any tools to punish people for not using skills (since confusion is mesmers main damage in PvP.) Sure there is Mental Anguish which you could take advantage of when the enemy isn't using skills but that trait (or the whole traintline/spec for that matter) isn't good in a condi build anyway. I feel like mesmer needs another trait, something like Mental Anguish, that benefits condi builds (without having to take a mostly power focused traitline/spec.) Maybe a single strong "power" hit that scales with condi damage when the enemy isn't using skills. As it is right now Mirage/confusion has too much counterplay and not enough reward. Dodging your burst & cleansing the confusion, but even if they don't do either of that all it takes is waiting a few seconds without really getting punished for it. I feel like I could write an essay about this but this is just my opinion on these confusion changes right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conncept.7638 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > > > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > > > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters. > > > > > > > > > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous. > > > > > > > > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it. > > > > > > You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world. > > > > Confusion has a flavor, along with the builds behind it, it fulfills a fantasy of a character so beguiling and tricky they can make an enemy defeat themselves. For a lot of players, it is what makes a mesmer, a mesmer. And now, that fantasy is gone, and with it the mesmer, removed from the game in the name of PvP players, and the devs don't give a crap, because players like you parroting the word "viable" are the only PvE players they seem to care about at all these days. > > What flavour? There was no flavour in pve, confusion was nothing more than a purple bleed that was doing an extra proc once every few seconds, when the mob remembered to cast a skill. Are you and players like you really so far gone that you don't even know what flavor is? Tell me, old school pen & paper RPG, you have the same situation, an ability in the game allows you to get an enemy to damage themselves, it is the only ability that does this. But wait, let's examine the mechanics behind this, to use this ability you roll the exact same dice as any other ability, you have a minimum hit rating and a critical rating exactly the same as any other ability, and to decide it's power you draw from the same group of stats as any other ability. As you've described flavor, nonsensically claiming it is reliant on mechanical viability, the above has no flavor. And yet, anyone who has played an old school RPG can tell you, it feels different, it feels more flavorful in fact than far too many games these days. It doesn't take heavy handed mechanics to individualize an ability, to make it flavorful, as displayed above it doesn't really take any mechanics at all. In the above scenario there is literally not a difference between that ability and hundreds of others, save its name and description, and if you have a good GM, how he describes it upon use. And similarly, it does not take being completely mechanically differentiated for confusion to feel like its own unique piece of the game. You could, in reality, take this game or any other, change all the characters to grey boxes, the world to a grey plane, and the skillbar to nothing but numbers, and all mechanics would be retained exactly the same, with all of the flavor, gone. And honestly, at this point, I wouldn't even be surprised if players like you were totally fine with that, and that is a sad state for a community of gamers, and especially for a team game developers, to find themselves in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbitUp.8294 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > > > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > > > > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > > > > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters. > > > > > > > > > > > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous. > > > > > > > > > > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it. > > > > > > > > You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world. > > > > > > Confusion has a flavor, along with the builds behind it, it fulfills a fantasy of a character so beguiling and tricky they can make an enemy defeat themselves. For a lot of players, it is what makes a mesmer, a mesmer. And now, that fantasy is gone, and with it the mesmer, removed from the game in the name of PvP players, and the devs don't give a crap, because players like you parroting the word "viable" are the only PvE players they seem to care about at all these days. > > > > What flavour? There was no flavour in pve, confusion was nothing more than a purple bleed that was doing an extra proc once every few seconds, when the mob remembered to cast a skill. > > Are you and players like you really so far gone that you don't even know what flavor is? > > Tell me, old school pen & paper RPG, you have the same situation, an ability in the game allows you to get an enemy to damage themselves, it is the only ability that does this. But wait, let's examine the mechanics behind this, to use this ability you roll the exact same dice as any other ability, you have a minimum hit rating and a critical rating exactly the same as any other ability, and to decide it's power you draw from the same group of stats as any other ability. > > As you've described flavor, nonsensically claiming it is reliant on mechanical viability, the above has no flavor. And yet, anyone who has played an old school RPG can tell you, it feels different, it feels more flavorful in fact than far too many games these days. > > It doesn't take heavy handed mechanics to individualize an ability, to make it flavorful, as displayed above it doesn't really take any mechanics at all. In the above scenario there is literally not a difference between that ability and hundreds of others, save its name and description, and if you have a good GM, how he describes it upon use. And similarly, it does not take being completely mechanically differentiated for confusion to feel like its own unique piece of the game. > > You could, in reality, take this game or any other, change all the characters to grey boxes, the world to a grey plane, and the skillbar to nothing but numbers, and all mechanics would be retained exactly the same, with all of the flavor, gone. > > And honestly, at this point, I wouldn't even be surprised if players like you were totally fine with that, and that is a sad state for a community of gamers, and especially for a team game developers, to find themselves in. You don't know what players "like me" are or want, so spare me the assumptions. Your post is nothing more than thinly-veiled hypocricy. Your problem is not flavour, your problem is that confusion is not good damage anymore. Because the change to confusion, which was more going back to the roots of the condition rather than an actual change, increases the flavour of it. You said it yourself, you have a mechanic that punishes someone for using skills. And the change puts an emphasis to that, by removing the passive component and increasing the active. At least others admit they just want their broken build, but you are sitting here talking about flavours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kas.3509 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > > > > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > > > > > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > > > > > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous. > > > > > > > > > > > > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it. > > > > > > > > > > You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world. > > > > > > > > Confusion has a flavor, along with the builds behind it, it fulfills a fantasy of a character so beguiling and tricky they can make an enemy defeat themselves. For a lot of players, it is what makes a mesmer, a mesmer. And now, that fantasy is gone, and with it the mesmer, removed from the game in the name of PvP players, and the devs don't give a crap, because players like you parroting the word "viable" are the only PvE players they seem to care about at all these days. > > > > > > What flavour? There was no flavour in pve, confusion was nothing more than a purple bleed that was doing an extra proc once every few seconds, when the mob remembered to cast a skill. > > > > Are you and players like you really so far gone that you don't even know what flavor is? > > > > Tell me, old school pen & paper RPG, you have the same situation, an ability in the game allows you to get an enemy to damage themselves, it is the only ability that does this. But wait, let's examine the mechanics behind this, to use this ability you roll the exact same dice as any other ability, you have a minimum hit rating and a critical rating exactly the same as any other ability, and to decide it's power you draw from the same group of stats as any other ability. > > > > As you've described flavor, nonsensically claiming it is reliant on mechanical viability, the above has no flavor. And yet, anyone who has played an old school RPG can tell you, it feels different, it feels more flavorful in fact than far too many games these days. > > > > It doesn't take heavy handed mechanics to individualize an ability, to make it flavorful, as displayed above it doesn't really take any mechanics at all. In the above scenario there is literally not a difference between that ability and hundreds of others, save its name and description, and if you have a good GM, how he describes it upon use. And similarly, it does not take being completely mechanically differentiated for confusion to feel like its own unique piece of the game. > > > > You could, in reality, take this game or any other, change all the characters to grey boxes, the world to a grey plane, and the skillbar to nothing but numbers, and all mechanics would be retained exactly the same, with all of the flavor, gone. > > > > And honestly, at this point, I wouldn't even be surprised if players like you were totally fine with that, and that is a sad state for a community of gamers, and especially for a team game developers, to find themselves in. > > You don't know what players "like me" are or want, so spare me the assumptions. > > Your post is nothing more than thinly-veiled hypocricy. Your problem is not flavour, your problem is that confusion is not good damage anymore. Because the change to confusion, which was more going back to the roots of the condition rather than an actual change, increases the flavour of it. You said it yourself, you have a mechanic that punishes someone for using skills. And the change puts an emphasis to that, by removing the passive component and increasing the active. > > At least others admit they just want their broken build, but you are sitting here talking about flavours. I know this post wasnt aimed to me but... Are you insane? Broken how exactly? Most players want confusion change reverted ONLY in pve. So you say it'll be broken in pve? Right now with torment on mesmer axe, damage is basically the same as it was with confusion. So how exactly broken we want it to be if damage is the same before and after change? What you said makes no sense at all. For me flavor is basically skill look and description. If I create a cleric in some game, I dont want him going around casting acid bolts for lets say 600 dmg. I want him to cast something like spears made of light for 600 dmg. Idc that in terms of winning/losing a fight its the same. Mesmer, master of manipulation, making enemies confused or dazed is something that fits mesmer flavor in my mind and it seems many other players think the same. On the other hand torment is something I see as necromancer stuff. It just doesnt fit the theme. I get it that you may not care about stuff like that but many players do. I wouldnt want engineers controlling the dead, necromancers making clones, rangers throwing elixirs and thieves casting fireballs even if it was all balanced. For the exact same reason I want confusion, not torment, on my mesmer to work. Its simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boulder.3589 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"nortask.8351" said: > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > @"Bofouci.1320" said: > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > @"squallaus.8321" said: > > > > > > If people only cared about numbers we'd all be playing weaver. Fact is axe mirage is way more fun to play than staff mirage. Provided axe build does reasonable numbers I rather play the axe than staff. But atm axe numbers are not reasonable and way underperforming. > > > > > > > > > > And mirage and confusion are very strong in competitive modes. I have yet to see a rule where every spec needs to be a raid spec. > > > > > > > > That's kinda the premise behind the game with it not having dedicated tank, heal, dps etc.. that each class was viable. > > > > > > Mirage is still viable. > > > > in PVP only. > > > > well holy kitten, a pvp only spec??????? So what is Spell Breaker then, wanna party up with me for raids on my spell breaker? Remember back in core when Necros were WvW only characters? And Ranger had no role in the game at all? I didn't play during the HoT era, but from what I'm told Scrapper was pvp and wvw only, and back in core engi was pvp and wvw only as well. Not every class has to be good at pve, pvp, and wvw. Not every spec has to be viable 100% of the time. Mesmer has been viable, necessary even for all game modes since launch. I will admit pvp had an iffy point where they were usable but that really depended on if you had a player on your team that was good at it. I think the only other class to maybe can scrape that same title would be guard, but even that was iffy for pve back at launch. Before you say warrior, they were not used for pvp for quite a while back in core. Ele and rev aren't too hot in pvp right now, but Rev is great in wvw, and ele is killer for pve. This game is all about playing more than one class and adapting to things if you want to be "the best op thing in the game". If you don't care find groups who don't care and just have fun playing the kitten game. I do agree with you there. It's just that mirage was a shiny new toy for pve dps fanatics, like me, and people don't like having shiny new toys taken away. Not saying same thing hasn't happened to other specs in the past, just saying it sux. And spellbreaker started as a pvp spec. Different from pve mirage players who geared it for pve being told it is now trash in pve and has been changed to a pvp spec. But that's been changed and kinda fixed with the torment now thou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conncept.7638 Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > > > > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > > > > > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > > > > > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous. > > > > > > > > > > > > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it. > > > > > > > > > > You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world. > > > > > > > > Confusion has a flavor, along with the builds behind it, it fulfills a fantasy of a character so beguiling and tricky they can make an enemy defeat themselves. For a lot of players, it is what makes a mesmer, a mesmer. And now, that fantasy is gone, and with it the mesmer, removed from the game in the name of PvP players, and the devs don't give a crap, because players like you parroting the word "viable" are the only PvE players they seem to care about at all these days. > > > > > > What flavour? There was no flavour in pve, confusion was nothing more than a purple bleed that was doing an extra proc once every few seconds, when the mob remembered to cast a skill. > > > > Are you and players like you really so far gone that you don't even know what flavor is? > > > > Tell me, old school pen & paper RPG, you have the same situation, an ability in the game allows you to get an enemy to damage themselves, it is the only ability that does this. But wait, let's examine the mechanics behind this, to use this ability you roll the exact same dice as any other ability, you have a minimum hit rating and a critical rating exactly the same as any other ability, and to decide it's power you draw from the same group of stats as any other ability. > > > > As you've described flavor, nonsensically claiming it is reliant on mechanical viability, the above has no flavor. And yet, anyone who has played an old school RPG can tell you, it feels different, it feels more flavorful in fact than far too many games these days. > > > > It doesn't take heavy handed mechanics to individualize an ability, to make it flavorful, as displayed above it doesn't really take any mechanics at all. In the above scenario there is literally not a difference between that ability and hundreds of others, save its name and description, and if you have a good GM, how he describes it upon use. And similarly, it does not take being completely mechanically differentiated for confusion to feel like its own unique piece of the game. > > > > You could, in reality, take this game or any other, change all the characters to grey boxes, the world to a grey plane, and the skillbar to nothing but numbers, and all mechanics would be retained exactly the same, with all of the flavor, gone. > > > > And honestly, at this point, I wouldn't even be surprised if players like you were totally fine with that, and that is a sad state for a community of gamers, and especially for a team game developers, to find themselves in. > > You don't know what players "like me" are or want, so spare me the assumptions. > > Your post is nothing more than thinly-veiled hypocricy. Your problem is not flavour, your problem is that confusion is not good damage anymore. Because the change to confusion, which was more going back to the roots of the condition rather than an actual change, increases the flavour of it. You said it yourself, you have a mechanic that punishes someone for using skills. And the change puts an emphasis to that, by removing the passive component and increasing the active. > > At least others admit they just want their broken build, but you are sitting here talking about flavours. Leads post with accusing me of making assumptions. Proceeds to make half a dozen accusatory assumptions. And I didn't make any assumption, because I didn't make any claim of your conduct at all, I said that with the way you are _acting_, which is not an assumption but something I have observed with my own two eyes in this very thread, that _if_ the game was made entirely around mechanics and with no regard for flavor, and _if_ players like you didn't care, I would not be surprised. And now that you've practically proven me right by being so defensive about the nerve I clearly hit, I'm not. And you are still unable to recognize what flavor is. I didn't say that we had a mechanic that punishes people for using skills, in fact I said the _exact opposite_, but you seem to be completely incapable of seperating mechanics and flavor as concepts. In the analogy I gave we had an ability that was _labeled_ as punishing people for using skills, but lacked any mechanic whatsoever to actually have an enemy damage their self, differentiated from any other damaging ability by name and description alone. And I stated, that that ability, without mechanical differentiation, would still feel flavorful. And anyone who has played the old-school RPGs I used as an example, can testify of that fact. You do not need heavy, or even any, mechanical differentiation to create flavor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbitUp.8294 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"Kas.3509" said: > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > > > > > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > > > > > > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > > > > > > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world. > > > > > > > > > > Confusion has a flavor, along with the builds behind it, it fulfills a fantasy of a character so beguiling and tricky they can make an enemy defeat themselves. For a lot of players, it is what makes a mesmer, a mesmer. And now, that fantasy is gone, and with it the mesmer, removed from the game in the name of PvP players, and the devs don't give a crap, because players like you parroting the word "viable" are the only PvE players they seem to care about at all these days. > > > > > > > > What flavour? There was no flavour in pve, confusion was nothing more than a purple bleed that was doing an extra proc once every few seconds, when the mob remembered to cast a skill. > > > > > > Are you and players like you really so far gone that you don't even know what flavor is? > > > > > > Tell me, old school pen & paper RPG, you have the same situation, an ability in the game allows you to get an enemy to damage themselves, it is the only ability that does this. But wait, let's examine the mechanics behind this, to use this ability you roll the exact same dice as any other ability, you have a minimum hit rating and a critical rating exactly the same as any other ability, and to decide it's power you draw from the same group of stats as any other ability. > > > > > > As you've described flavor, nonsensically claiming it is reliant on mechanical viability, the above has no flavor. And yet, anyone who has played an old school RPG can tell you, it feels different, it feels more flavorful in fact than far too many games these days. > > > > > > It doesn't take heavy handed mechanics to individualize an ability, to make it flavorful, as displayed above it doesn't really take any mechanics at all. In the above scenario there is literally not a difference between that ability and hundreds of others, save its name and description, and if you have a good GM, how he describes it upon use. And similarly, it does not take being completely mechanically differentiated for confusion to feel like its own unique piece of the game. > > > > > > You could, in reality, take this game or any other, change all the characters to grey boxes, the world to a grey plane, and the skillbar to nothing but numbers, and all mechanics would be retained exactly the same, with all of the flavor, gone. > > > > > > And honestly, at this point, I wouldn't even be surprised if players like you were totally fine with that, and that is a sad state for a community of gamers, and especially for a team game developers, to find themselves in. > > > > You don't know what players "like me" are or want, so spare me the assumptions. > > > > Your post is nothing more than thinly-veiled hypocricy. Your problem is not flavour, your problem is that confusion is not good damage anymore. Because the change to confusion, which was more going back to the roots of the condition rather than an actual change, increases the flavour of it. You said it yourself, you have a mechanic that punishes someone for using skills. And the change puts an emphasis to that, by removing the passive component and increasing the active. > > > > At least others admit they just want their broken build, but you are sitting here talking about flavours. > > I know this post wasnt aimed to me but... > Are you insane? Broken how exactly? > Most players want confusion change reverted ONLY in pve. So you say it'll be broken in pve? Right now with torment on mesmer axe, damage is basically the same as it was with confusion. So how exactly broken we want it to be if damage is the same before and after change? What you said makes no sense at all. > > For me flavor is basically skill look and description. If I create a cleric in some game, I dont want him going around casting acid bolts for lets say 600 dmg. I want him to cast something like spears made of light for 600 dmg. > Idc that in terms of winning/losing a fight its the same. > > Mesmer, master of manipulation, making enemies confused or dazed is something that fits mesmer flavor in my mind and it seems many other players think the same. On the other hand torment is something I see as necromancer stuff. It just doesnt fit the theme. I get it that you may not care about stuff like that but many players do. > > I wouldnt want engineers controlling the dead, necromancers making clones, rangers throwing elixirs and thieves casting fireballs even if it was all balanced. For the exact same reason I want confusion, not torment, on my mesmer to work. Its simple as that. But it's not about trading your spears of light for acid bolts. It's about having both, but acid bolts do more damage than spears of light in pve. Because confusion wasn't removed from the game, it's still here. So, as I said above, it's about the damage. You want confusion to be good damage so you use it, instead of being pushed to higher dps builds that use other conditions. And it's not something I disagree with, and I've said it in other posts. But it's not about flavour, it's about min-maxing, and it getting in the way of flavourful builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RabbitUp.8294 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > @"RabbitUp.8294" said: > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > @"Conncept.7638" said: > > > > > > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Karl McLain.5604" said: > > > > > > > > > > Please retain the whole message when copy/pasta-ing: > > > > > > > > > > Moving Confusion to have condition damage contribution ticks made it a damage-over-time condition in addition to its 'hex' style punishment of using skills. We needed to make a choice as to whether or not the condition was going to be used as spammable DOT, or rarer/shorter, with more potency. We've decided to push Confusion to be burstier and once again focus on punishing skill activation. The reason for keeping any dot component is to message that you're under the effects of the condition, so you can be informed of it without looking at your buff bar. > > > > > > > > > > With that said, we'll be moving weapons like Mirage's Axe toward Torment, rather than Confusion, as soon as the process allows. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm glad that you intend on making changes eventually, but it's not a huge consolation for the numerous mesmers that no longer have viable builds for potentially the next 2 quarters. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > While I find confusion change to be... not smart, what you say here is a lie. There are already benchmarks for new mesmer builds higher than previous. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You part of the dev team? Because just like them you seem to have forgotten there is PvE in this game outside raids, and a confusion mesmer is now unusable in all of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can player power build. It's even much more reasonable to play power builds in open world. > > > > > > > > > > Confusion has a flavor, along with the builds behind it, it fulfills a fantasy of a character so beguiling and tricky they can make an enemy defeat themselves. For a lot of players, it is what makes a mesmer, a mesmer. And now, that fantasy is gone, and with it the mesmer, removed from the game in the name of PvP players, and the devs don't give a crap, because players like you parroting the word "viable" are the only PvE players they seem to care about at all these days. > > > > > > > > What flavour? There was no flavour in pve, confusion was nothing more than a purple bleed that was doing an extra proc once every few seconds, when the mob remembered to cast a skill. > > > > > > Are you and players like you really so far gone that you don't even know what flavor is? > > > > > > Tell me, old school pen & paper RPG, you have the same situation, an ability in the game allows you to get an enemy to damage themselves, it is the only ability that does this. But wait, let's examine the mechanics behind this, to use this ability you roll the exact same dice as any other ability, you have a minimum hit rating and a critical rating exactly the same as any other ability, and to decide it's power you draw from the same group of stats as any other ability. > > > > > > As you've described flavor, nonsensically claiming it is reliant on mechanical viability, the above has no flavor. And yet, anyone who has played an old school RPG can tell you, it feels different, it feels more flavorful in fact than far too many games these days. > > > > > > It doesn't take heavy handed mechanics to individualize an ability, to make it flavorful, as displayed above it doesn't really take any mechanics at all. In the above scenario there is literally not a difference between that ability and hundreds of others, save its name and description, and if you have a good GM, how he describes it upon use. And similarly, it does not take being completely mechanically differentiated for confusion to feel like its own unique piece of the game. > > > > > > You could, in reality, take this game or any other, change all the characters to grey boxes, the world to a grey plane, and the skillbar to nothing but numbers, and all mechanics would be retained exactly the same, with all of the flavor, gone. > > > > > > And honestly, at this point, I wouldn't even be surprised if players like you were totally fine with that, and that is a sad state for a community of gamers, and especially for a team game developers, to find themselves in. > > > > You don't know what players "like me" are or want, so spare me the assumptions. > > > > Your post is nothing more than thinly-veiled hypocricy. Your problem is not flavour, your problem is that confusion is not good damage anymore. Because the change to confusion, which was more going back to the roots of the condition rather than an actual change, increases the flavour of it. You said it yourself, you have a mechanic that punishes someone for using skills. And the change puts an emphasis to that, by removing the passive component and increasing the active. > > > > At least others admit they just want their broken build, but you are sitting here talking about flavours. > > Leads post with accusing me of making assumptions. > > Proceeds to make half a dozen accusatory assumptions. > > And I didn't make any assumption, because I didn't make any claim of your conduct at all, I said that with the way you are _acting_, which is not an assumption but something I have observed with my own two eyes in this very thread, that _if_ the game was made entirely around mechanics and with no regard for flavor, and _if_ players like you didn't care, I would not be surprised. And now that you've practically proven me right by being so defensive about the nerve I clearly hit, I'm not. > > And you are still unable to recognize what flavor is. > > I didn't say that we had a mechanic that punishes people for using skills, in fact I said the _exact opposite_, but you seem to be completely incapable of seperating mechanics and flavor as concepts. > > In the analogy I gave we had an ability that was _labeled_ as punishing people for using skills, but lacked any mechanic whatsoever to actually have an enemy damage their self, differentiated from any other damaging ability by name and description alone. And I stated, that that ability, without mechanical differentiation, would still feel flavorful. And anyone who has played the old-school RPGs I used as an example, can testify of that fact. You do not need heavy, or even any, mechanical differentiation to create flavor. You talked about "players like me", so yes, that's an assumption. Because you weren't responding to an individual post, you were profilling a group of players. And it was your assumption that because I disagreed with you on something related to flavour, it must mean that I don't appreciate flavour, or that I'm incapable of recognising it. Yes, in your analogy you mentioned the things your did. And I ignored it, because it's completely irrelevant to this situation. Did they change the name, tooltip, description or visual of confusion? No, all of those are the same, the "packaging" is the same. What changed was only the mechanics, the way the damage is delivered. In your opinion, mechanics can exist completely seperate from flavour, as long as the flavour is "labelled" properly. So, with the packaging remaining the same, there's no ground for complaining about destruction of flavour, is there? In my opinion, mechanics can play a big role in complimenting the flavour of a skill, more than a tooltip can, and the changed design does so better than the old one did. So, where's the problem with flavour here? Because if this mechanical change destroys the flavour for you, regardless of what you claimed, then that flavour never existed in the first place, because that's how mesmer launched in the game and how confusion worked until the update right before HoT launch. Mirage and axe also didn't exist at that time. Yet, confusion was closely tied with mesmer even back then. In the end, what changed is that a confusion-based mesmer is not good dps in pve anymore. Like it wasn't for the game's entire life up until PoF brought Mirage. Because even after confusion gained a DoT component, both base mesmer and chrono relied on other conditions, mainly bleeding, to do damage. Yes, the change didn't need to happen in pve. Yes, it's a loss of build variety. But it's not the destruction of the flavour of the entire class, because confusion is still a part of mesmer with the same mechanics and packaging it existed for the majority of this game's life. And if that's still a loss of flavour for you, then that flavour never existed in the first place, and it was only something Mirage intrioduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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