AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > I would be happy if they just put confusion back on axe 3. Leave the ambush as torment if they don't want excessive confusion stacking. > > > > > > But axe 3 is a burst skill which before this change was and should be burst into denial. They want confusion to be a burst application denial condition so axe 3 out if every skill I can think of should have this to support that gameplay. > > > > > > It would also then be more rewarding to land axe 3, rather than right now you just get more torment on top of torment already there... > > > > > > The idea being if you land axe 3 it challenges the opponent to react in the right way - usually after eating a burst players will need to use a skill to recover in some way - if axe 3 was a confusion burst as before it forces the opponent to think - do they wait out the short duration burst confusion while being at risk with lower health? Do they try to use skills to recover but eat confusion ticks? Do they use cleanses now to allow free skill use but be at risk of sustained torment/bleed/etc later? > > > > > > For this reason I believe axe 3 (axes of symmetry) should be reverted to burst confusion application, if no other changes are made. > > > > Except PvE opponents don't alter their behavior in response to confusion. So how can you possibly use it that way in PvE? The simple answer is that you can't and short of designing much better AI across the board, there is no way around that. None. Please feel free to explain how you expect ANet to work around this issue. I really can't think of anything myself. > > > > My selfish primary instinct is to say I don't care about instanced pve with the dps arms race. But that opinion isn't good for the game. > > However given confusion still exists on other skills/traits it needs to be made functional in instanced pve or better to delete it from the game. Therefore I do think for pve only confusion should be restored to regular DoT plus damage on tick, so having it on a skill like axe 3 won't be detrimental to any dps rotations they use. Keep the new confusion for pvp/wvw only. I agree. Confusion can work as a control condition in PvP and was obviously too strong when it also punished players for not using skills! But in PvE it can't function as a control condition, and so it needs to have the standard DoT component. It is simply too weak in PvE in its current state compared to any other condition and balancing it seems very difficult, since its damage is based on how often enemies use skills (which probably varies widely). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > I would be happy if they just put confusion back on axe 3. Leave the ambush as torment if they don't want excessive confusion stacking. > > > > > > > > But axe 3 is a burst skill which before this change was and should be burst into denial. They want confusion to be a burst application denial condition so axe 3 out if every skill I can think of should have this to support that gameplay. > > > > > > > > It would also then be more rewarding to land axe 3, rather than right now you just get more torment on top of torment already there... > > > > > > > > The idea being if you land axe 3 it challenges the opponent to react in the right way - usually after eating a burst players will need to use a skill to recover in some way - if axe 3 was a confusion burst as before it forces the opponent to think - do they wait out the short duration burst confusion while being at risk with lower health? Do they try to use skills to recover but eat confusion ticks? Do they use cleanses now to allow free skill use but be at risk of sustained torment/bleed/etc later? > > > > > > > > For this reason I believe axe 3 (axes of symmetry) should be reverted to burst confusion application, if no other changes are made. > > > > > > Except PvE opponents don't alter their behavior in response to confusion. So how can you possibly use it that way in PvE? The simple answer is that you can't and short of designing much better AI across the board, there is no way around that. None. Please feel free to explain how you expect ANet to work around this issue. I really can't think of anything myself. > > > > > > > My selfish primary instinct is to say I don't care about instanced pve with the dps arms race. But that opinion isn't good for the game. > > > > However given confusion still exists on other skills/traits it needs to be made functional in instanced pve or better to delete it from the game. Therefore I do think for pve only confusion should be restored to regular DoT plus damage on tick, so having it on a skill like axe 3 won't be detrimental to any dps rotations they use. Keep the new confusion for pvp/wvw only. > > > > So yes, confusion will need to be properly split to support this. > > Just gonna leave this here. > > > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > > Actually it's not so easy as you think. They can split numbers, but not actual functionality. They can't have the condition scaling on the passive damage in PvE and on the active damage in pvp/wvw because limitations in the game engine makes this actually impossible without actually making two completely separate conditions in the game IDs that are named the same thing, which would actually create more problems than it solves. They can only change the numbers of HOW MUCH the condition scales in one mode or another. The easiest solution is to have it tick one condition in one game mode and another in other game modes. > > Ah, nice one - yes I would be very happy if it was just a simple skill split where axe applied confusion on ambush and axe 3 in pvp/wvw but applied torment in pve. That would be fantastic! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > I would be happy if they just put confusion back on axe 3. Leave the ambush as torment if they don't want excessive confusion stacking. > > > > > > > > But axe 3 is a burst skill which before this change was and should be burst into denial. They want confusion to be a burst application denial condition so axe 3 out if every skill I can think of should have this to support that gameplay. > > > > > > > > It would also then be more rewarding to land axe 3, rather than right now you just get more torment on top of torment already there... > > > > > > > > The idea being if you land axe 3 it challenges the opponent to react in the right way - usually after eating a burst players will need to use a skill to recover in some way - if axe 3 was a confusion burst as before it forces the opponent to think - do they wait out the short duration burst confusion while being at risk with lower health? Do they try to use skills to recover but eat confusion ticks? Do they use cleanses now to allow free skill use but be at risk of sustained torment/bleed/etc later? > > > > > > > > For this reason I believe axe 3 (axes of symmetry) should be reverted to burst confusion application, if no other changes are made. > > > > > > Except PvE opponents don't alter their behavior in response to confusion. So how can you possibly use it that way in PvE? The simple answer is that you can't and short of designing much better AI across the board, there is no way around that. None. Please feel free to explain how you expect ANet to work around this issue. I really can't think of anything myself. > > > > > > > My selfish primary instinct is to say I don't care about instanced pve with the dps arms race. But that opinion isn't good for the game. > > > > However given confusion still exists on other skills/traits it needs to be made functional in instanced pve or better to delete it from the game. Therefore I do think for pve only confusion should be restored to regular DoT plus damage on tick, so having it on a skill like axe 3 won't be detrimental to any dps rotations they use. Keep the new confusion for pvp/wvw only. > > I agree. Confusion can work as a control condition in PvP and was obviously too strong when it also punished players for not using skills! But in PvE it can't function as a control condition, and so it needs to have the standard DoT component. It is simply too weak in PvE in its current state compared to any other condition and balancing it seems very difficult, since its damage is based on how often enemies use skills (which probably varies widely). I really like Sojourner's idea of solving this with skill splits. This could be extended to remove ALL confusion from pve and replace those skills/traits using it with other conditions such as torment or bleed. But those skills/traits can keep or even have more confusion in pvp/wvw. So on the subject of axe it could do all torment and bleed in pve, but the ambush and axe 3 could do confusion in pvp/wvw. Same for Jaunt, Ineptitude, Riddle of Sand, Scepter 3, F2... every single trait or skill with confusion - change the condition in pve only. Make confusion a pvp/wvw only condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > I would be happy if they just put confusion back on axe 3. Leave the ambush as torment if they don't want excessive confusion stacking. > > > > > > > > > > But axe 3 is a burst skill which before this change was and should be burst into denial. They want confusion to be a burst application denial condition so axe 3 out if every skill I can think of should have this to support that gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > It would also then be more rewarding to land axe 3, rather than right now you just get more torment on top of torment already there... > > > > > > > > > > The idea being if you land axe 3 it challenges the opponent to react in the right way - usually after eating a burst players will need to use a skill to recover in some way - if axe 3 was a confusion burst as before it forces the opponent to think - do they wait out the short duration burst confusion while being at risk with lower health? Do they try to use skills to recover but eat confusion ticks? Do they use cleanses now to allow free skill use but be at risk of sustained torment/bleed/etc later? > > > > > > > > > > For this reason I believe axe 3 (axes of symmetry) should be reverted to burst confusion application, if no other changes are made. > > > > > > > > Except PvE opponents don't alter their behavior in response to confusion. So how can you possibly use it that way in PvE? The simple answer is that you can't and short of designing much better AI across the board, there is no way around that. None. Please feel free to explain how you expect ANet to work around this issue. I really can't think of anything myself. > > > > > > > > > > My selfish primary instinct is to say I don't care about instanced pve with the dps arms race. But that opinion isn't good for the game. > > > > > > However given confusion still exists on other skills/traits it needs to be made functional in instanced pve or better to delete it from the game. Therefore I do think for pve only confusion should be restored to regular DoT plus damage on tick, so having it on a skill like axe 3 won't be detrimental to any dps rotations they use. Keep the new confusion for pvp/wvw only. > > > > I agree. Confusion can work as a control condition in PvP and was obviously too strong when it also punished players for not using skills! But in PvE it can't function as a control condition, and so it needs to have the standard DoT component. It is simply too weak in PvE in its current state compared to any other condition and balancing it seems very difficult, since its damage is based on how often enemies use skills (which probably varies widely). > > I really like Sojourner's idea of solving this with skill splits. > > This could be extended to remove ALL confusion from pve and replace those skills/traits using it with other conditions such as torment or bleed. But those skills/traits can keep or even have more confusion in pvp/wvw. > > So on the subject of axe it could do all torment and bleed in pve, but the ambush and axe 3 could do confusion in pvp/wvw. > > Same for Jaunt, Ineptitude, Riddle of Sand, Scepter 3, F2... every single trait or skill with confusion - change the condition in pve only. Make confusion a pvp/wvw only condition. By that logic, torment should go, too. Ideally, you don't want that much variability in damage output in PvE. Like confusion, torment can't function as a control condition in PvE. It's purely damage, making it trickier to balance because some enemies move and some enemies don't - especially bosses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curunen.8729 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > > I would be happy if they just put confusion back on axe 3. Leave the ambush as torment if they don't want excessive confusion stacking. > > > > > > > > > > > > But axe 3 is a burst skill which before this change was and should be burst into denial. They want confusion to be a burst application denial condition so axe 3 out if every skill I can think of should have this to support that gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > It would also then be more rewarding to land axe 3, rather than right now you just get more torment on top of torment already there... > > > > > > > > > > > > The idea being if you land axe 3 it challenges the opponent to react in the right way - usually after eating a burst players will need to use a skill to recover in some way - if axe 3 was a confusion burst as before it forces the opponent to think - do they wait out the short duration burst confusion while being at risk with lower health? Do they try to use skills to recover but eat confusion ticks? Do they use cleanses now to allow free skill use but be at risk of sustained torment/bleed/etc later? > > > > > > > > > > > > For this reason I believe axe 3 (axes of symmetry) should be reverted to burst confusion application, if no other changes are made. > > > > > > > > > > Except PvE opponents don't alter their behavior in response to confusion. So how can you possibly use it that way in PvE? The simple answer is that you can't and short of designing much better AI across the board, there is no way around that. None. Please feel free to explain how you expect ANet to work around this issue. I really can't think of anything myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > My selfish primary instinct is to say I don't care about instanced pve with the dps arms race. But that opinion isn't good for the game. > > > > > > > > However given confusion still exists on other skills/traits it needs to be made functional in instanced pve or better to delete it from the game. Therefore I do think for pve only confusion should be restored to regular DoT plus damage on tick, so having it on a skill like axe 3 won't be detrimental to any dps rotations they use. Keep the new confusion for pvp/wvw only. > > > > > > I agree. Confusion can work as a control condition in PvP and was obviously too strong when it also punished players for not using skills! But in PvE it can't function as a control condition, and so it needs to have the standard DoT component. It is simply too weak in PvE in its current state compared to any other condition and balancing it seems very difficult, since its damage is based on how often enemies use skills (which probably varies widely). > > > > I really like Sojourner's idea of solving this with skill splits. > > > > This could be extended to remove ALL confusion from pve and replace those skills/traits using it with other conditions such as torment or bleed. But those skills/traits can keep or even have more confusion in pvp/wvw. > > > > So on the subject of axe it could do all torment and bleed in pve, but the ambush and axe 3 could do confusion in pvp/wvw. > > > > Same for Jaunt, Ineptitude, Riddle of Sand, Scepter 3, F2... every single trait or skill with confusion - change the condition in pve only. Make confusion a pvp/wvw only condition. > > By that logic, torment should go, too. Ideally, you don't want that much variability in damage output in PvE. Like confusion, torment can't function as a control condition in PvE. It's purely damage, making it trickier to balance because some enemies move and some enemies don't - especially bosses. Might not be a bad idea though. I mean torment and confusion both are more pvp oriented conditions, so replacing them with things like bleed or burn in pve for consistent damage output makes sense. Whether it's thematically acceptable is another thing, but it is an interesting solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > > > I would be happy if they just put confusion back on axe 3. Leave the ambush as torment if they don't want excessive confusion stacking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But axe 3 is a burst skill which before this change was and should be burst into denial. They want confusion to be a burst application denial condition so axe 3 out if every skill I can think of should have this to support that gameplay. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would also then be more rewarding to land axe 3, rather than right now you just get more torment on top of torment already there... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The idea being if you land axe 3 it challenges the opponent to react in the right way - usually after eating a burst players will need to use a skill to recover in some way - if axe 3 was a confusion burst as before it forces the opponent to think - do they wait out the short duration burst confusion while being at risk with lower health? Do they try to use skills to recover but eat confusion ticks? Do they use cleanses now to allow free skill use but be at risk of sustained torment/bleed/etc later? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For this reason I believe axe 3 (axes of symmetry) should be reverted to burst confusion application, if no other changes are made. > > > > > > > > > > > > Except PvE opponents don't alter their behavior in response to confusion. So how can you possibly use it that way in PvE? The simple answer is that you can't and short of designing much better AI across the board, there is no way around that. None. Please feel free to explain how you expect ANet to work around this issue. I really can't think of anything myself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My selfish primary instinct is to say I don't care about instanced pve with the dps arms race. But that opinion isn't good for the game. > > > > > > > > > > However given confusion still exists on other skills/traits it needs to be made functional in instanced pve or better to delete it from the game. Therefore I do think for pve only confusion should be restored to regular DoT plus damage on tick, so having it on a skill like axe 3 won't be detrimental to any dps rotations they use. Keep the new confusion for pvp/wvw only. > > > > > > > > I agree. Confusion can work as a control condition in PvP and was obviously too strong when it also punished players for not using skills! But in PvE it can't function as a control condition, and so it needs to have the standard DoT component. It is simply too weak in PvE in its current state compared to any other condition and balancing it seems very difficult, since its damage is based on how often enemies use skills (which probably varies widely). > > > > > > I really like Sojourner's idea of solving this with skill splits. > > > > > > This could be extended to remove ALL confusion from pve and replace those skills/traits using it with other conditions such as torment or bleed. But those skills/traits can keep or even have more confusion in pvp/wvw. > > > > > > So on the subject of axe it could do all torment and bleed in pve, but the ambush and axe 3 could do confusion in pvp/wvw. > > > > > > Same for Jaunt, Ineptitude, Riddle of Sand, Scepter 3, F2... every single trait or skill with confusion - change the condition in pve only. Make confusion a pvp/wvw only condition. > > > > By that logic, torment should go, too. Ideally, you don't want that much variability in damage output in PvE. Like confusion, torment can't function as a control condition in PvE. It's purely damage, making it trickier to balance because some enemies move and some enemies don't - especially bosses. > > Might not be a bad idea though. I mean torment and confusion both are more pvp oriented conditions, so replacing them with things like bleed or burn in pve for consistent damage output makes sense. Whether it's thematically acceptable is another thing, but it is an interesting solution. Strictly speaking, it isn't necessary to have so many conditions in PvE. Like I said, torment and confusion can't function as control conditions in PvE. They're pure damage just like burning and bleeding. So what are they really there for if they can't serve the functions that make them distinctive from other conditions? I think we were better off (in PvE) prior to the confusion nerf. But if there is some underlying technical reason that they can't split this and keep the old confusion in PvE and the new version in PvP, then alternatives should be considered. Perhaps torment and confusion don't belong in PvE at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > Voted for easiest solution. > > > > It would’ve made more sense for a full rework. > > Change **all** Confusion attacks to Torment. > > Add confusion as an Effect rather than a condition to some Hard CC abilities and soft CC abilities for a lower duration than the Hard. Which would thematically make sense for this “condition”. It’s damage can then be balanced independently of condition damage. > > Actually it's not so easy as you think. They can split numbers, but not actual functionality. They can't have the condition scaling on the passive damage in PvE and on the active damage in pvp/wvw because limitations in the game engine makes this actually impossible without actually making two completely separate conditions in the game IDs that are named the same thing, which would actually create more problems than it solves. They can only change the numbers of HOW MUCH the condition scales in one mode or another. The easiest solution is to have it tick one condition in one game mode and another in other game modes. If they can make the scaling different in each game mode, and different for the passive and active component (and they can, because they did it before), they can also do exactly that. Just put a 0 as a scaling factor in the desired place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thornum.8607 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 With more than half of the responses voting for reverting the PvE confusion change, and with numerous threads talking about it in both General Discussion and the Mesmer forum, I hope Arenanet comes back to us with a response as to _why_ they felt this decision had to be made. Regardless of whether it was the right decision and whether they would even consider reverting it based on the community's voice, knowing the reasoning behind it might make it easier to understand or even accept. The radio silence that is being upheld currently is rather disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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