Good time to roll a mesmer?

[Warrost.4895]

Basiclly the title, want a new character, but how is mesmer right now?

[atlashugged.7642]

it's great. Don't let the complainers fool you, they complain constantly regardless of how fun or unfun the game is.

[SloRules.3560]

It's fun to discover new builds that work, idk how fun it would be for new player. I have 4 viable group wvw builds currently and developing new ones.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

It’s fine for now. The thing you have to understand is that historically Mesmer has never been on good terms with Anet and the player base. If you’re a new player and hop on to do pvp then Mesmer will wreck you all day long because you aren’t used to essentially fighting 4 things at once. On the flip side of that higher end pvp players can effectively shut down a Mesmer as they know what to expect.

This lead to Mesmer being practically useless until the release of HoT. Chrono gave us a spec that fixed some of the problems Mesmer had since launch(being slow ooc, illusions being easily dodged, etc) but that it was quickly nerfed because it was too good at sustaining team fight. But at the same time people were realizing just how good at support it was with quickness and alacrity so a PvE Meta build developed for the first time in years. Then with PoF we see the introduction of a second meta PvE build and another meta PvP build.

But that’s a problem as Mesmer isn’t allowed nice things and so we had all our confusion nerfed, which has really messed up PvE players because mobs don’t activate enough skills to make using the new old style confusion work. So yes it’s worth rolling Mesmer as long as your fine with it recieving lots of nerfs.

[atlashugged.7642]

> @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> It’s fine for now. The thing you have to understand is that historically Mesmer has never been on good terms with Anet and the player base. If you’re a new player and hop on to do pvp then Mesmer will wreck you all day long because you aren’t used to essentially fighting 4 things at once. On the flip side of that higher end pvp players can effectively shut down a Mesmer as they know what to expect.

> This lead to Mesmer being practically useless until the release of HoT. Chrono gave us a spec that fixed some of the problems Mesmer had since launch(being slow ooc, illusions being easily dodged, etc) but that it was quickly nerfed because it was too good at sustaining team fight. But at the same time people were realizing just how good at support it was with quickness and alacrity so a PvE Meta build developed for the first time in years. Then with PoF we see the introduction of a second meta PvE build and another meta PvP build.

> But that’s a problem as Mesmer isn’t allowed nice things and so we had all our confusion nerfed, which has really messed up PvE players because mobs don’t activate enough skills to make using the new old style confusion work. So yes it’s worth rolling Mesmer as long as your fine with it recieving lots of nerfs.

 

Something noteworthy that this guy didn't tell you is that mesmer actually has more meta pve builds now. You can still support fairly well with chrono. You can do a power pve build that works well. And you can do a condi build as well. Build diversity went up with the patch that changed confusion, yet he's complaining and presenting it as the end of the world to you as a way to signal to ANET that he is not happy with his particular build.

 

So this is why you should take the complaining with a truckload of salt. Because most of it is based on partial information. People are upset that one aspect of the mesmer got changed, but are ignoring that overall mesmer quality of life and build diversity went up. There really hasn't been a better time to be a mesmer, unless you go all the way back to when guild wars 1 had a large, active playerbase.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"atlashugged.7642" said:

> > @"Jace al Thor.6745" said:

> > It’s fine for now. The thing you have to understand is that historically Mesmer has never been on good terms with Anet and the player base. If you’re a new player and hop on to do pvp then Mesmer will wreck you all day long because you aren’t used to essentially fighting 4 things at once. On the flip side of that higher end pvp players can effectively shut down a Mesmer as they know what to expect.

> > This lead to Mesmer being practically useless until the release of HoT. Chrono gave us a spec that fixed some of the problems Mesmer had since launch(being slow ooc, illusions being easily dodged, etc) but that it was quickly nerfed because it was too good at sustaining team fight. But at the same time people were realizing just how good at support it was with quickness and alacrity so a PvE Meta build developed for the first time in years. Then with PoF we see the introduction of a second meta PvE build and another meta PvP build.

> > But that’s a problem as Mesmer isn’t allowed nice things and so we had all our confusion nerfed, which has really messed up PvE players because mobs don’t activate enough skills to make using the new old style confusion work. So yes it’s worth rolling Mesmer as long as your fine with it recieving lots of nerfs.

>

> Something noteworthy that this guy deliberately avoided telling you is that mesmer actually has more meta pve builds now. You can still support fairly well with chrono. You can do a power pve build that works well. And you can do a condi build as well. Build diversity went up with the patch that changed confusion, yet he's complaining and presenting it as the end of the world to you as a way to passively aggressively signal to ANET that he is not happy with his particular build.

>

> So this is why you should take the complaining with a truckload of salt. Because most of it is based on partial information. People are upset that one aspect of the mesmer got changed, but are ignoring that overall mesmer quality of life and build diversity went up. There really hasn't been a better time to be a mesmer, unless you go all the way back to when guild wars 1 had a large, active playerbase.

 

Eh best thing to do is realize I rarely play any PvE which I probably should have mentioned but oh well.

And I disagree on the last part, just s matter of personal opinion, but pre hot, just before they implemented HoT was the best time to play Mesmer. I don’t care what build you wanted to play you could play it but again that’s just me.

 

The other thing is, yes this patch brought and changed s lot of stuff, however, as typical of Anet it was well thought out which is the biggest thing to take away from this. I personally love the phantasm changes for the most part, they should have decreased the cd or buffed them more to make having a longer cd be worth it. And I’m loving the change to chaotic persistence, the build I run in WvW got a good buff for all of a day then they nerfed bountiful disillusionment for some stupid reason...

 

But yeah, there’s nothing wrong with Mesmer but it’s also not all roses nad rainbows because historically Anet hates Mesmer. And if you think Mesmer will continue to have a plethora of builds in PvE... well we will have to see. Too many people are complaining about Mesmer being “too good” so I’m sure there’ll be more nerfs coming.

[Miroe.2054]

I main mesmer and love it. Now, if you want to roll a mesmer don't foget to educate yourself how to complain properly. It's essential to use the time between matches to leave a cynical comment on reddit or these forums. Don't think about it, just do it. It's the meta.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"atlashugged.7642" said:

> it's great. Don't let the complainers fool you, they complain constantly regardless of how fun or unfun the game is.

 

It's great if you're running a power build right now, which prior to the recent patch wasn't generally true outside of WvW. Condi builds, on the other hand, are a bit up in the air right now. I would be surprised if this torment "fix" is the last we see of the confusion debacle.

 

Still waiting on your big idea for shifting the numbers around to make confusion work in PvE, bud.

[Agent Noun.7350]

I've been a Mesmer main since launch and I'm thrilled with these changes, personally. I suggested something a lot like this back in August, actually, so naturally I'm biased in its favor. Condi Mirage took a nasty hit, but I don't think that was intentional and it's probably going to see improvements. Power Chrono and Mirage are in the best shape they've ever been, though, and they're a blast to play.

[atlashugged.7642]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"atlashugged.7642" said:

> > it's great. Don't let the complainers fool you, they complain constantly regardless of how fun or unfun the game is.

>

> It's great if you're running a power build right now, which prior to the recent patch wasn't generally true outside of WvW. Condi builds, on the other hand, are a bit up in the air right now. I would be surprised if this torment "fix" is the last we see of the confusion debacle.

>

> Still waiting on your big idea for shifting the numbers around to make confusion work in PvE, bud.

 

I've posted it several times pal.

Make the damage proportional to the cool down of the ability that triggers it. Increase it across the board in pve, but keep the damage over time effect minimal. This will reward the mesmer player for timing bursts to big moves, but also help to scale it to PvE hitpoints.

 

For open world pve (as if this is even relevant at all) an ability could be tweaked to give the mesmer a smaller confusion burst that doesn't require clone setup.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"atlashugged.7642" said:

> Make the damage proportional to the cool down of the ability that triggers it. Increase it across the board in pve, but keep the damage over time effect minimal. This will reward the mesmer player for timing bursts to big moves, but also help to scale it to PvE hitpoints.

It still doesn't solve the "tiny" problem that lately the moments where you are supposed to burst are also moments where the target doesn't use any skills at all. And that phase changes that in some cases happen after that often cleanse conditions.

Thus "burst" condition in PvE couldn't be actually used in moments where you'd need burst damage the most.

 

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"atlashugged.7642" said:

> > Make the damage proportional to the cool down of the ability that triggers it. Increase it across the board in pve, but keep the damage over time effect minimal. This will reward the mesmer player for timing bursts to big moves, but also help to scale it to PvE hitpoints.

> It still doesn't solve the "tiny" problem that lately the moments where you are supposed to burst are also moments where the target doesn't use any skills at all. And that phase changes that in some cases happen after that often cleanse conditions.

> Thus "burst" condition in PvE couldn't be actually used in moments where you'd need burst damage the most.

>

 

Confusion doesn't have to be the burst while a boss does nothing phase condition. Burn is already a thing. Now that axe is mostly torment and condi mirage is doing great damage again, I don't think this is a balance problem on the profession side anymore. It's encounter design. If certain enemies would spam attacks a lot faster, confusion wouldn't be bad in PvE (also retaliation to a lesser degree). Example: In raids, the boss doesn't have to attack super faster. Mesmer just stacks torment and does the normal rotation. However, adds that spawn throughout the fight could have super fast attacks. Like some kind of sniper (not-reflectable) spawns far away (1200 range) from the raid boss and starts auto attacking the healer every 3/4 a second. Being able to burst confusion with jaunt, (maybe even mirage advance) axe3, f2 and maybe scepter 3 would kill them quickly. Stuff like this could keep confusion as a disruptive short duration burst in PvE and make DPS rotations a bit more dynamic in which you adjust which weapon skills you use per enemy instead of just doing the same rotation regardless of what you are fighting.

[Curunen.8729]

It's always a good time to make a Mesmer if you enjoy the theme. :)

 

That said thematically I'm not enjoying the insane torment stack output and minimal confusion. Aesthetics matter or we may as well just type formulas in spreadsheets at each other, so I would like to see confusion with it's purple visual effect and counter be the primary Mesmer condition again. Not on a new elite spec, on all of Mesmer.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> Confusion doesn't have to be the burst while a boss does nothing phase condition.

It's still a burst condition by intention. The whole change was a result of devs considerin it to be so. Bursts that by design are not working when you need them most are not a good design idea.

 

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> Burn is already a thing. Now that axe is mostly torment and condi mirage is doing great damage again, I don't think this is a balance problem on the profession side anymore.

It never was. The problem did not lie with any of the professions or any of the skills. It was a result of the new idea for confusion clashing in pve with mob design.

 

> @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> It's encounter design. If certain enemies would spam attacks a lot faster, confusion wouldn't be bad in PvE (also retaliation to a lesser degree).

Indeed, you can look at it that way, and it's equally valid approach. Problem is, it's much easier to change design of a single condition than redo all of the mob encounters in pve. The second option is simply not reasonable to take at this point in the game history.

So, basically, those two designs conflict in pve. To make it work, you need to change one. One of the two things is way, way, way easier to change than the other.

 

 

 

[MikeL.8260]

Ugh! don't listen to all that drama, Mesmer is an extremely fun to play class and has always been viable and even essential in all game modes.

[Vermillion.4061]

Power one shot mesmer as always been fun in WvW if you are interested in playing that game mode and now it's been buffed it's even more fun.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"Vermillion.4061" said:

> Power one shot mesmer as always been fun in WvW if you are interested in playing that game mode and now it's been buffed it's even more fun.

 

I really wish we could get away from using the term one shot because it makes the whiners think it really takes a single button press when it actually requires some involved game play and combo’ing. But that’s just a pet peeve of mine.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"atlashugged.7642" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"atlashugged.7642" said:

> > > it's great. Don't let the complainers fool you, they complain constantly regardless of how fun or unfun the game is.

> >

> > It's great if you're running a power build right now, which prior to the recent patch wasn't generally true outside of WvW. Condi builds, on the other hand, are a bit up in the air right now. I would be surprised if this torment "fix" is the last we see of the confusion debacle.

> >

> > Still waiting on your big idea for shifting the numbers around to make confusion work in PvE, bud.

>

> I've posted it several times pal.

> Make the damage proportional to the cool down of the ability that triggers it. Increase it across the board in pve, but keep the damage over time effect minimal. This will reward the mesmer player for timing bursts to big moves, but also help to scale it to PvE hitpoints.

>

> For open world pve (as if this is even relevant at all) an ability could be tweaked to give the mesmer a smaller confusion burst that doesn't require clone setup.

>

 

I have a few questions, friend. How does it "scale to hit points"? You said damage scales according to the cooldown of the skill used. Which brings us to the first glaring issue with this idea. Consider:

 

Enemy A has 10k health and uses a skill with a 5 second cooldown.

 

Enemy B has 1M health and uses a skill with a 5 second cooldown.

 

How much damage do they take? What happens if the 10k health enemy uses a skill with a 180s cooldown? How many skills can enemy A realistically be expected to use before his 10k health expires? If the answer is 1 (it is), then just how much damage does a stack of confusion need to do to be worth anything in this scenario? What about the boss with 1M health. When I break his bar and he stands there for 5 seconds not using skills, how do you propose I time my bursts to get the most out of confusion?

 

Further, confusion as a condition simply will not work the way you want it to in PvE. First, it stacks. What am I going to do? Keep my stack count at a low 20 and wait for just the right moment to add a clutch 3 stacks with jaunt? More importantly, the AI doesn't recognize it. You can pile 50 stacks of confusion or none. Enemies are going to perform their attacks at the same intervals. It cannot be used as a control condition and it can't be timed to work like an interrupt.

 

When you start thinking this through, it is a lot more than just moving numbers around.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > Confusion doesn't have to be the burst while a boss does nothing phase condition.

> It's still a burst condition by intention. The whole change was a result of devs considerin it to be so. Bursts that by design are not working when you need them most are not a good design idea.

>

> > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > Burn is already a thing. Now that axe is mostly torment and condi mirage is doing great damage again, I don't think this is a balance problem on the profession side anymore.

> It never was. The problem did not lie with any of the professions or any of the skills. It was a result of the new idea for confusion clashing in pve with mob design.

>

> > @"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:

> > It's encounter design. If certain enemies would spam attacks a lot faster, confusion wouldn't be bad in PvE (also retaliation to a lesser degree).

> Indeed, you can look at it that way, and it's equally valid approach. Problem is, it's much easier to change design of a single condition than redo all of the mob encounters in pve. The second option is simply not reasonable to take at this point in the game history.

> So, basically, those two designs conflict in pve. To make it work, you need to change one. One of the two things is way, way, way easier to change than the other.

>

>

>

 

Oh I also agree that reworking every enemy would be much harder and unrealistic. I don't expect that. However, I think it would be much more rewarding gameplay to have enemies that have moments for confusion to shine. That doesn't require a full rework on all mobs. They can just rework a few key enemies or add new types of attacks going forward.

Other examples: Subject alpha in CoE. He has an attack that targets everyone. It's been a while but I remember confusion actually proccing for every target he attacked. So having 3 illusions up + party of 5 procced confusion 8 times back in the day even though it was "one" attack. Raid bosses like matt and KC have similar mechanics. AoE circle on everyone in the group but I'm pretty sure it procs confusion only once.

 

Gorsy is another example of where the new confusion could be good but isnt. The ground slam CC phase looks like a bunch of attacks but is a single channeled attack that procs confusion once. I know a lot of high end groups don't but slow cc is still common in pugs. If each attack proc'd confusion that would be a great "confusion burst phase" for slow cc groups.

 

I'm not saying the raid team should go back to those fights and rework them just for confusion. I wouldn't be surprised if it breaks the fight somehow. However, going forward, they could try slightly different stuff. Instead of a channeled attack on gorsy, a new raid boss could have an attack that is a chain auto that repeats on loop that procs confusion rapidly. It wouldn't be always active but there could be moments of "spike confusion now for max DPS!" This isn't just a mesmer thing as condi engi (which has it's DPS drop a lot with this confusion change) or ranger, warrior and thief can have some amount of confusion.

 

Again, it would be easier to revert the change. I won't pretend otherwise. I just think that PvE content devs could step up their game a bit to match these new changes which would result in better gameplay.

[Genesis.5169]

I don't think so until the forums settle down. I feel like more nerfs on are on way i suggest you wait until the mesmer hate dies.

[Roda.7468]

I'd say wait until the turbulence dissipates. There's a lot of confusion/torment with a lot of the recent changes and it's worth seeing where things settle before you invest a lot of resources making a build that can be hotfixed out in 3 days.