Sojourner.4621 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > Paying for a "RUN" doesn't even relate to what actually happens 99% of the time. > All your allowing players to do is pay for the final smidge of a boss fight or the final chest in order to get the item/achievement, which is nothing more than advertising the sale of an item, which funnily enough you don't allow. > > Such double standards make a mockery of the game content. Might as well just give everyone the item/achievs or let them buy .. at least then the gold gets taken out the game or Real currency goes to ANET not the shady ones. > > LFG sales should mean just that.. sales... if a player wants to sell a spot they form a group before hand and run it through the whole way not just a chest. > Selling an itme or such on the LFG actually still constitutes forming a group if you want to be pedantic so again this is just double standards. > > It makes a mockery of creating challenging content if everyone can just piggy back a spot at the end.. some things are just not meant to be for some players.. what is wrong with that.. how does selling spots make a player learn or try to improve.. it doesn't its simply a P2W that you openly support.. Some people with physical disabilities are literally unable to improve beyond a certain point. Are you suggesting players that actually can't "git gud" should be punished by being locked out of certain in game items? Assuming someone legitimately made the gold, of course, to purchase a run... why shouldn't they be able to if other people are willing to do the job? Say, hypothetically, I was physically incapable of the reaction time or coordination required to Raid, but wanted the White Mantle Portal Device, which can only be obtained through raiding... but I was able to do easy daily farms to gain enough gold to buy a run... is that something I should be punished for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HnRkLnXqZ.1870 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 The official statements of ANet staff members are very disappointing recently (except for Mr. Cleary). They all pretend to face a concerning and important issue, to clear things up and to give us the feeling that someone is actually doing something about that matter. But if you read these "clarifications" with your pink-sunglasses unequipped, it is basically content from the FAQ and the other official policies. They repeat it over and over, not addressing any of our questions for real. What Mrs. Gray wrote this time can be summarized as follows: - we see your problem - let me explain to you, what you reported to us over and over for years - our policies say that account-sharing is bad - our policies say that RMTs are bad - our policies say that fraud is bad - we will only take actions against activities which include: fraud, rmt or accountsharing - there will be no actions against all other vendors on the lfg Excuse me if I am wrong, but that is no change at all. Everything listed worked before that clarification the same way as after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashen.2907 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said: > The official statements of ANet staff members are very disappointing recently (except for Mr. Cleary). They all pretend to face a concerning and important issue, to clear things up and to give us the feeling that someone is actually doing something about that matter. But if you read these "clarifications" with your pink-sunglasses unequiped, it is basically content from the FAQ and the other official policies. They repeat it over and over, not addressing any of our questions for real. > > What Mrs. Gray wrote this time can be summarized as follows: > - we see your problem > - let me explain to you, what you reported to us over and over for years > - our policies say that account-sharing is bad > - our policies say that RMT's are bad > - our policies say that fraud is bad > - we will only take actions against activities which include: fraud, rmt or accountsharing > - there will be no actions against all other vendors on the lfg > > Excuse me if I am wrong, but that is no change at all. Everything listed worked before that clarification the same way as after. > > > Doubtless, IMO, this thread was created in response to increased reporting on the subject. A reminder of the existing stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said: > Excuse me if I am wrong, but that is no change at all. Yes, it's a reminder that they don't see it as a problem and do not intend to change stance on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > Paying for a "RUN" doesn't even relate to what actually happens 99% of the time. > > All your allowing players to do is pay for the final smidge of a boss fight or the final chest in order to get the item/achievement, which is nothing more than advertising the sale of an item, which funnily enough you don't allow. > > > > Such double standards make a mockery of the game content. Might as well just give everyone the item/achievs or let them buy .. at least then the gold gets taken out the game or Real currency goes to ANET not the shady ones. > > > > LFG sales should mean just that.. sales... if a player wants to sell a spot they form a group before hand and run it through the whole way not just a chest. > > Selling an itme or such on the LFG actually still constitutes forming a group if you want to be pedantic so again this is just double standards. > > > > It makes a mockery of creating challenging content if everyone can just piggy back a spot at the end.. some things are just not meant to be for some players.. what is wrong with that.. how does selling spots make a player learn or try to improve.. it doesn't its simply a P2W that you openly support.. > > Some people with physical disabilities are literally unable to improve beyond a certain point. Are you suggesting players that actually can't "git gud" should be punished by being locked out of certain in game items? Assuming someone legitimately made the gold, of course, to purchase a run... why shouldn't they be able to if other people are willing to do the job? Say, hypothetically, I was physically incapable of the reaction time or coordination required to Raid, but wanted the White Mantle Portal Device, which can only be obtained through raiding... but I was able to do easy daily farms to gain enough gold to buy a run... is that something I should be punished for? Sorry but if you your not up to the skill level set by the game design or if a group are unwilling to carry you through the whole thing .. then yes, sorry but I believe that P2W sets a very bad precedent for any game. Some things are supposed to be just that little bit beyond some of us.. me included.. but you know what, that's ok with me.. I know my limitations but using them in order to buy my way through content is not acceptable and makes a mockery of designing any content that is remotely challenging. If your impaired enough to not be able to raid or complete a dungeon then it's likely you will struggle in many other aspects of the game.. that is not something that can be easily catered for when elitists want challenging content like raids brought in... otherwise just turn the whole game into a shopping mall and put ramps in to make it easy win for all. We can't have it both ways.. or perhaps with ANET it seems we can and they fully support it, which makes the whole idea of challenging raid content a joke and no point in having shinnies or achievements in the game.. just buy them all instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torolan.5816 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 i neither buy or sell runs on my own, but it is a useful revenue and so part of the business for Anet. I would like to have said that it is a business and not the olympics where only talent wins, but the olympics are also a business and a stage for politics today. So it seems only logical that Anet has no problems with people buying runs from more competent or physically fitter people. Accessibility by paying means more satisfied costumers who probably also bought the gold with gems. The funny thing is that long ago when raids were implemented, the argument of raiders of a real challenge for the most able players with specific rewards was hollow from the start on two fronts(reward wise and challenge wise), but no one wanted to hear that then. Money always bought and used talent. If that is true in RL, why should it be wrong in GW2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanze.8410 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > @"Wanze.8410" said: > > This practice of selling raid runs only profits a fair few, while damaging the majority because it doesnt encourage teaching your fellow players. > > Creating a grey market that obviously feeds from RMT is probably the worst solution here for you as a company and the majority of the player base. > > Whats the difference between selling raids and using [/r/gw2exchange](https://www.reddit.com/r/GW2Exchange/)? In both cases, people are participating in the grey market, offering something of value to a willing purchaser. I don't see why this encourages people to RMT anymore than buying a Confetti or Chak infusion would, since at more than 10k gold those are even more out of reach of the "typical" player than buying raids. > > Just like people can choose to learn how to make gold via the TP, as you do, people can choose to learn how to raid. And just as people might choose to use their credit card to convert RL cash to gems to gold to buy a fancy infusion, why isn't also okay for them to choose to spend that gold on a service? > > Of course there are problems associated with selling raids, but there are also issues with the Exchange. (And, importantly, one of the reasons why there are relatively few problems with the exchange is that you and your fellow moderators of the subreddit take great pains to ensure transparency (including the newer rule of requiring people to post their IGN). > > On the whole, I'd say the bigger threat to the game is from people who /kick folks near the final encounter of raids or fractals, to allow their friends in. While that's probably an issue smaller in magnitude than we think, it can impact anyone who PUGs, not just people choosing to participate in the grey market. > I talked about my involvement in /r/gw2exchange a bit more in [this reddit post]( ). Some points I elaborated there: I am not the creator of that subreddit I am just a moderator that spends time there in order to prevent scamming and help create transparency in a grey market. Personally, as a trader, I would never use the exchange to buy or sell high value items just to avoid the TP tax because I am well aware of the risk of gaining possession of items or gold that was purchased with RMT and a subsequent ban. Its the same risk, raid sellers face right now and they are moaning about it, I dont. Another difference between the exchange and selling high value raid runs is that those high value items are also purchaseable through the trading post, so I dont think that the exchange creates additional demand for RMT. IF someone wants to obtain a legendary weapon for a couple of thousand gold and decides to get gold with RMT for it, its because that item has such a high value and not because its offered as p2p trade on the exchange. The only 2 exceptions of course are the chak egg sac and the confetti infusion which are value over 10k gold and therefore cant be traded on the official market because the trading post has a 10k gold limt of sales. So thats a grey market that that Anet created itself. PErsonally, I wouldnt mind, if Anet raises the tp gold limit, so these 2 items can be traded safely between players or if they up the droprate, so their value falls below 10k. I also wouldnt mind to ban chak egg sac and confetti infusion trades from the exchange as well but I doubt that the other moderators would agree. Raid runs cant be purchased officially in game, so thats a grey market that is created by the suppliers, so they are also responsible for additional demand in RMT this creates. IF Anet would implement a system in game that allows players to transparantly sell and buy "services" like raid or fractal runs, mesmer jp portals, hp trains or whatever, I would have absolutely no objections to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakthor Thorwak.2819 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 but bying and selling runs have excisted in evry mmo i played for in game currency and real life money and i never been scammed i gues i must been a lucky dude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Torolan.5816" said: > i neither buy or sell runs on my own, but it is a useful revenue and so part of the business for Anet. I would like to have said that it is a business and not the olympics where only talent wins, but the olympics are also a business and a stage for politics today. So it seems only logical that Anet has no problems with people buying runs from more competent or physically fitter people. Accessibility by paying means more satisfied costumers who probably also bought the gold with gems. > > The funny thing is that long ago when raids were implemented, the argument of raiders of a real challenge for the most able players with specific rewards was hollow from the start on two fronts(reward wise and challenge wise), but no one wanted to hear that then. > Money always bought and used talent. If that is true in RL, why should it be wrong in GW2? Go back to page 1 and read Gaile's post again.. then perhaps you wont assume that they probably bought the gold with gems. The more serious issue with selling spots for final chest , loot etc is that it has a habit of attracting the wrong type of person .. on both sides of the coin .. hence why ANET wont support it officially but say its officially ok to do it... double standard much?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose Solane.1027 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 _post removed, obsolete_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysdude.3824 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Hello! As someone that doesn’t have the time to invest in learning and gearing for raids (even with the experienced guilds I purchased from, it still took a while to complete) I am happy that I was still able to do that in order to get what I wanted. I really don’t see what the big deal is, and I just don’t understand how what I choose to do with my gold affects someone else’s gaming experience. Even the so called “clutter” with the LFG tab...is scrolling and reading really that hard for some people? I have never been kicked from a group prior to the boss (luckily, I suppose I might add, because I didnt know that was a thing) but it was always a pleasant experience for me. The guilds I worked with were always very nice and understanding. Hell, one guild even returned my gold because they felt bad about not being able to complete the final boss even though I insisted on them keeping it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolph.1679 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > And then there are raiders. I have never heard of a static group that does all wings weekly inviting someone random because one of their members couldn't join. They are absolutely able to do a raid with 9 people or less, just like you can do T4 fractals with 3 people. While the fractal players are often willing to carry and help out, raiders sell the spot. You can change the system, but not the people. Well, don't make generalizations. Some people really farm the end game content to make their money (they raid and sell their skill training, experience and time investment, instead of farming SW or camping mobs spots like bots with turrets or pets) and they advertise this in LFG, like it was the case for dungeons runs before. As soon as some people are wanting to buy that, they'll carry on doing so. And on the other hands there are training guilds around here for people wanting to learn, without any other requirement than willing to train and being able to gear one class for raid, with experienced raiders to help and give advice. And some statics in those guilds take a "trainee" who didn't kill the bosses yet, a different one every weeks, sometimes several of them. It's even a condition to be able to join the party not to have killed the boss yet. The difference is that they usually advertise this among their new trainee members, or guildies' friends rather than LFG because they know they'll have to explain everything and take time. Even when you advertise a training in LFG you have people leaving every few minutes if it doesn't goes well or if it takes "too much time" to explain or review skills for specific classes. Had a couple of people charging the boss ("Leroooyyyy Jenkinnnns!!" syndrom) without listening or waiting for the others to be ready as they needed some explanations before we started. As those statics are able to low-man a lot of bosses, they often take several trainees (it's a kind of achievement to kill a Deimos or Xera with 5 people who never did it once - I don't speak about dead people waiting for the fight to happen). So those trainees can have an insight of the fight and get their kills and be more relaxed when they enter real training runs later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torolan.5816 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > @"Torolan.5816" said: > > i neither buy or sell runs on my own, but it is a useful revenue and so part of the business for Anet. I would like to have said that it is a business and not the olympics where only talent wins, but the olympics are also a business and a stage for politics today. So it seems only logical that Anet has no problems with people buying runs from more competent or physically fitter people. Accessibility by paying means more satisfied costumers who probably also bought the gold with gems. > > > > The funny thing is that long ago when raids were implemented, the argument of raiders of a real challenge for the most able players with specific rewards was hollow from the start on two fronts(reward wise and challenge wise), but no one wanted to hear that then. > > Money always bought and used talent. If that is true in RL, why should it be wrong in GW2? > > Go back to page 1 and read Gaile's post again.. then perhaps you wont assume that they probably bought the gold with gems. > > The more serious issue with selling spots for final chest , loot etc is that it has a habit of attracting the wrong type of person .. on both sides of the coin .. hence why ANET wont support it officially but say its officially ok to do it... double standard much?? You´re essentially preaching to the choir with me in that regard. I thought from the very beginning that the introduction of raids would fundamentally change and affect GW2, their habits and both priorities and perceptions of players and Anet alike. The main response to this was: *it won´t affect you *I want it so shove it *l2p issues *no raids = no endgame That this would change the face of GW2 is getting more evident every day and was also voiced by some people, but then you were a naysayer and a noob when you did not jump on the hype train. If you open yourself to these kind of people, you have to life with the consequences too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Torolan.5816" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > > @"Torolan.5816" said: > > > i neither buy or sell runs on my own, but it is a useful revenue and so part of the business for Anet. I would like to have said that it is a business and not the olympics where only talent wins, but the olympics are also a business and a stage for politics today. So it seems only logical that Anet has no problems with people buying runs from more competent or physically fitter people. Accessibility by paying means more satisfied costumers who probably also bought the gold with gems. > > > > > > The funny thing is that long ago when raids were implemented, the argument of raiders of a real challenge for the most able players with specific rewards was hollow from the start on two fronts(reward wise and challenge wise), but no one wanted to hear that then. > > > Money always bought and used talent. If that is true in RL, why should it be wrong in GW2? > > > > Go back to page 1 and read Gaile's post again.. then perhaps you wont assume that they probably bought the gold with gems. > > > > The more serious issue with selling spots for final chest , loot etc is that it has a habit of attracting the wrong type of person .. on both sides of the coin .. hence why ANET wont support it officially but say its officially ok to do it... double standard much?? > > You´re essentially preaching to the choir with me in that regard. I thought from the very beginning that the introduction of raids would fundamentally change and affect GW2, their habits and both priorities and perceptions of players and Anet alike. The main response to this was: > *it won´t affect you > *I want it so shove it > *l2p issues > *no raids = no endgame > > That this would change the face of GW2 is getting more evident every day and was also voiced by some people, but then you were a naysayer and a noob when you did not jump on the hype train. If you open yourself to these kind of people, you have to life with the consequences too. TBH I never had an opinion either way back when they introduced Raids. But Raids were just another avenue to for players to exploit the game.. dungeons achievs and loots spots were being sold long before raids. Don't get me wrong, I don't necessarily blame the players selling the spots, more so the players buying the spots.. lazy, under skilled or yes perhaps even the impaired. Doing so invalidates the content when all you have to do is pay some in game gold or go buy gems to xfer to gold.. or worse use more shady practices, which could and obviously has affected both parties if ANET are to be believed. That said some sellers are just as shady and scamming has been a thing in that sense since the beginning of time. But to officially say its ok to sell spots but officially not support it.. sorry but that just highlights the glaringly obvious lack of care around their product and there is simply no point in creating challenging content that essentially is P2W. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Dolph.1679" said: > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > And then there are raiders. I have never heard of a static group that does all wings weekly inviting someone random because one of their members couldn't join. They are absolutely able to do a raid with 9 people or less, just like you can do T4 fractals with 3 people. While the fractal players are often willing to carry and help out, raiders sell the spot. You can change the system, but not the people. > > Well, don't make generalizations. > Some people really farm the end game content to make their money (they raid and sell their skill training, experience and time investment, instead of farming SW or camping mobs spots like bots with turrets or pets) and they advertise this in LFG, like it was the case for dungeons runs before. As soon as some people are wanting to buy that, they'll carry on doing so. > And on the other hands there are training guilds around here for people wanting to learn, without any other requirement than willing to train and being able to gear one class for raid, with experienced raiders to help and give advice. > And some statics in those guilds take a "trainee" who didn't kill the bosses yet, a different one every weeks, sometimes several of them. It's even a condition to be able to join the party not to have killed the boss yet. > The difference is that they usually advertise this among their new trainee members, or guildies' friends rather than LFG because they know they'll have to explain everything and take time. Even when you advertise a training in LFG you have people leaving every few minutes if it doesn't goes well or if it takes "too much time" to explain or review skills for specific classes. Had a couple of people charging the boss ("Leroooyyyy Jenkinnnns!!" syndrom) without listening or waiting for the others to be ready as they needed some explanations before we started. > As those statics are able to low-man a lot of bosses, they often take several trainees (it's a kind of achievement to kill a Deimos or Xera with 5 people who never did it once - I don't speak about dead people waiting for the fight to happen). So those trainees can have an insight of the fight and get their kills and be more relaxed when they enter real training runs later. > The same goes for high level fractals, and yet, there is little to no selling going on. Fractals are my main source of income, and I trained my skills and invested time there instead of farming SW, and so did many others. And no, T4 fractals and cms are not easy content that everybody can do. Fractal players are simply more willing to carry someone, I have no idea why that is the case. It doesn't even make sense to me. A T4 fractal takes average 10 minutes and you only need 3 or 4 skilled players. 1 or 2 players can die and you still get through. A raid kill takes only 6 minutes in some cases. A Samarog kill by a low dps group takes as long as a fractal. Samarog can easily be killed by 7 or 8 skilled players in a reasonable amount of time. For me, it sounds weird that you absolutely need that 50+LI player to fill the last spot if the others are skilled and you are not a speed clear group. Maybe it's the legendary armor. People who want it and don't have the connections you need to actually raid might be inclined to pay for it. This creates that market where raiders are actually lowering the value of their titles and items by taking money in exchange for them. The only legendary item you get from fractals is the backpack, and getting it is not as difficult as getting legendary armor. Shattered Observatory cm is the only fractal that comes close to having a similarily high entry barrier. You simply cannot do it if you haven't done it successfully before or have the connections that allow you to join in. In this case, I almost get it because one player can actually mess up the whole run for everybody else. It's harder than most raids. If legendary armor is the reason for the raid selling situation, I sure hope they'll never add fractal legendary armor. Btw, I already don't connect any prestige to those raid titles anymore, they lost their value when raiders started to sell them or cheated to get them, like this Dhuum cm title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > But to officially say its ok to sell spots but officially not support it.. sorry but that just highlights the glaringly obvious lack of care around their product No. It's not a lack of care. It's a statement that the behaviour is not one they would want to promote, and so they are not going to support it (by, for example, making a raid selling tab), but at the same time, while they don't really like it, they don't think it's something that should be specifically forbidden. There's a ton of things like that in the game (direct trading bypassing the TP, for example, is operating under exactly the same rules). So does most of the farming content, unless it gets just way too good (in which case Anet will change the content to make it less lucrative, but will never tell players that they _can't_ farm it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner.4621 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > @"Dolph.1679" said: > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > And then there are raiders. I have never heard of a static group that does all wings weekly inviting someone random because one of their members couldn't join. They are absolutely able to do a raid with 9 people or less, just like you can do T4 fractals with 3 people. While the fractal players are often willing to carry and help out, raiders sell the spot. You can change the system, but not the people. > > > > Well, don't make generalizations. > > Some people really farm the end game content to make their money (they raid and sell their skill training, experience and time investment, instead of farming SW or camping mobs spots like bots with turrets or pets) and they advertise this in LFG, like it was the case for dungeons runs before. As soon as some people are wanting to buy that, they'll carry on doing so. > > And on the other hands there are training guilds around here for people wanting to learn, without any other requirement than willing to train and being able to gear one class for raid, with experienced raiders to help and give advice. > > And some statics in those guilds take a "trainee" who didn't kill the bosses yet, a different one every weeks, sometimes several of them. It's even a condition to be able to join the party not to have killed the boss yet. > > The difference is that they usually advertise this among their new trainee members, or guildies' friends rather than LFG because they know they'll have to explain everything and take time. Even when you advertise a training in LFG you have people leaving every few minutes if it doesn't goes well or if it takes "too much time" to explain or review skills for specific classes. Had a couple of people charging the boss ("Leroooyyyy Jenkinnnns!!" syndrom) without listening or waiting for the others to be ready as they needed some explanations before we started. > > As those statics are able to low-man a lot of bosses, they often take several trainees (it's a kind of achievement to kill a Deimos or Xera with 5 people who never did it once - I don't speak about dead people waiting for the fight to happen). So those trainees can have an insight of the fight and get their kills and be more relaxed when they enter real training runs later. > > > > The same goes for high level fractals, and yet, there is little to no selling going on. Fractals are my main source of income, and I trained my skills and invested time there instead of farming SW, and so did many others. And no, T4 fractals and cms are not easy content that everybody can do. > > Fractal players are simply more willing to carry someone, I have no idea why that is the case. It doesn't even make sense to me. A T4 fractal takes average 10 minutes and you only need 3 or 4 skilled players. 1 or 2 players can die and you still get through. A raid kill takes only 6 minutes in some cases. A Samarog kill by a low dps group takes as long as a fractal. Samarog can easily be killed by 7 or 8 skilled players in a reasonable amount of time. For me, it sounds weird that you absolutely need that 50+LI player to fill the last spot if the others are skilled and you are not a speed clear group. > > Maybe it's the legendary armor. People who want it and don't have the connections you need to actually raid might be inclined to pay for it. This creates that market where raiders are actually lowering the value of their titles and items by taking money in exchange for them. The only legendary item you get from fractals is the backpack, and getting it is not as difficult as getting legendary armor. Shattered Observatory cm is the only fractal that comes close to having a similarily high entry barrier. You simply cannot do it if you haven't done it successfully before or have the connections that allow you to join in. In this case, I almost get it because one player can actually mess up the whole run for everybody else. It's harder than most raids. > > If legendary armor is the reason for the raid selling situation, I sure hope they'll never add fractal legendary armor. Btw, I already don't connect any prestige to those raid titles anymore, they lost their value when raiders started to sell them or cheated to get them, like this Dhuum cm title. Titles have zero value. They never had value. Just like AP never has had value. You can't lower the value of something without value, you just end up at the same number. You may have pride in your accomplishment, and good for you. You should have pride in your abilities. If you need a title to "prove" it to other people... yeah, no one cares except you. No one can take away what you have accomplished on your own. It's actually impossible. Carries have always existed... they will continue to exist... a lot of times they don't even take gold, just some competent friends who take pity on you. This, by your estimation, would also diminish the "value" of your title. So people should be a-holes to their friends because it diminishes value on a few bits of data in an on-line game, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Rysdude.3824" said: > Hello! > > As someone that doesn’t have the time to invest in learning and gearing for raids (even with the experienced guilds I purchased from, it still took a while to complete) I am happy that I was still able to do that in order to get what I wanted. I really don’t see what the big deal is, and I just don’t understand how what I choose to do with my gold affects someone else’s gaming experience. Players want prestige items and titles. That is one reason why Anet made the 2nd generation legendary weapons account bound. If you have one, it proves that you did everything that's involved. They started doing the same with trinkets, Aurora. You can show it off as prestige item that shows how much time and effort you spent playing this game to get it, and the commitment you put into it. Titles: you need to spend a lot of time playing fractals to get the Fractal Savant title or the higher ones. Having it actually means you have lots of experience doing fractals. You cannot simply buy the title with gold. You could maybe pay a group to carry you through T4s every day for half a year, but I'm pretty sure nobody has ever done this. The sheer amount of relics you need makes this approach unrealistic. The game experience of players who like doing this, for reputation or prestige, is indeed affected by players who buy the same things with gold/gems. You make the items or titles less valuable, in some cases maybe worthless. If you see someone who has the "Demon's Demise" title, it could easily be a low skilled player who just bought the kills. And another player standing right next to him who actually did all the kills in normal and cm mode would look no different. It has the same effect on players' experience as cheating to get a title. You'll never know who actually earned the title "Voice in the Void" and who cheated to get it. It makes it less valuable. The only reason (my personal guess) Anet tolerates it is because they cannot keep players from doing it, it's the same with dps meters. > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > Titles have zero value. Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rysdude.3824 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Faaris.8013" said: > The game experience of players who like doing this, for reputation or prestige, is indeed affected by players who buy the same things with gold/gems. You make the items or titles less valuable, in some cases maybe worthless. If you see someone who has the "Demon's Demise" title, it could easily be a low skilled player who just bought the kills. And another player standing right next to him who actually did all the kills in normal and cm mode would look no different. It has the same effect on players' experience as cheating to get a title. You'll never know who actually earned the title "Voice in the Void" and who cheated to get it. It makes it less valuable. > But if you see a player with the “Demons Demise” title, just how long do you stand there torturing yourself with the question of did that player buy it or not? I mean, seriously, without you asking that player you would never know. Your point of view sounds mentally exhausting because 1) youre worrying about other people when you should be just enjoying the game and play it how you want to play it, and 2) please see 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Rysdude.3824" said: > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > The game experience of players who like doing this, for reputation or prestige, is indeed affected by players who buy the same things with gold/gems. You make the items or titles less valuable, in some cases maybe worthless. If you see someone who has the "Demon's Demise" title, it could easily be a low skilled player who just bought the kills. And another player standing right next to him who actually did all the kills in normal and cm mode would look no different. It has the same effect on players' experience as cheating to get a title. You'll never know who actually earned the title "Voice in the Void" and who cheated to get it. It makes it less valuable. > > > > But if you see a player with the “Demons Demise” title, just how long do you stand there torturing yourself with the question of did that player buy it > or not? I mean, seriously, without you asking that player you would never know. Your point of view sounds mentally exhausting because 1) youre worrying about other people when you should be just enjoying the game and play it how you want to play it, and 2) please see 1. > > It's a thing for people who want experienced party members for a raid or a fractal run, or for just showing off. I notice comments about these titles, not only respectful, but also things like "with that title I had expected more dps from that Weaver". It's like noticing a player's nice legendary weapon, you don't torture or exhaust yourself mentally and you are not worrying about anything. No idea where you got that impression from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 @ Sojourner You missed the point.. they don't get help doing it.. its done for them and they just buy a kill or a chest.. that is not an achievement. It obviously does mean something to them.. otherwise why buy the run in the first place.. that right there makes your whole point moot. As for me accomplishing stuff.. no wrong again.. I don't expect to accomplish the raids achievs, I don't profess to be a raid specialist, but then again I am not so desperate for it that I go pay for the final chest or the final kill of a boss. That said it's about why the content was developed.. because players wanted something more challenging, higher level of skill/teamwork. That right there is why ANET allowing runs to be bought makes it a joke and invalidates the efforts of the devs to bring something to us. As for your attempt at an insult.... maybe grow up a little if you can't hold discussion without resorting trying to be a tryhard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > But to officially say its ok to sell spots but officially not support it.. sorry but that just highlights the glaringly obvious lack of care around their product > No. It's not a lack of care. It's a statement that the behaviour is not one they would want to promote, and so they are not going to support it (by, for example, making a raid selling tab), but at the same time, while they don't really like it, they don't think it's something that should be specifically forbidden. There's a ton of things like that in the game (direct trading bypassing the TP, for example, is operating under exactly the same rules). So does most of the farming content, unless it gets just way too good (in which case Anet will change the content to make it less lucrative, but will never tell players that they _can't_ farm it). > > Totally disagree. When ANET come out with an official statement, acknowledging that they have found high amount of RMT coming from buying of runs, which are a major concern regarding account security etc, etc, etc.. that right there is a must do actionable requirement.. and that means killing the opportunity at its source.. banning buying of spots. Turning a blind eye to a glaringly large hole in their product is a lack of care.. for the product but more importantly us, their customers. It reeks of double standard to allow but not support issues that arise from it... bad form, is just bad form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 > @"Sojourner.4621" said: > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > @"Dolph.1679" said: > > > > @"Faaris.8013" said: > > > > And then there are raiders. I have never heard of a static group that does all wings weekly inviting someone random because one of their members couldn't join. They are absolutely able to do a raid with 9 people or less, just like you can do T4 fractals with 3 people. While the fractal players are often willing to carry and help out, raiders sell the spot. You can change the system, but not the people. > > > > > > Well, don't make generalizations. > > > Some people really farm the end game content to make their money (they raid and sell their skill training, experience and time investment, instead of farming SW or camping mobs spots like bots with turrets or pets) and they advertise this in LFG, like it was the case for dungeons runs before. As soon as some people are wanting to buy that, they'll carry on doing so. > > > And on the other hands there are training guilds around here for people wanting to learn, without any other requirement than willing to train and being able to gear one class for raid, with experienced raiders to help and give advice. > > > And some statics in those guilds take a "trainee" who didn't kill the bosses yet, a different one every weeks, sometimes several of them. It's even a condition to be able to join the party not to have killed the boss yet. > > > The difference is that they usually advertise this among their new trainee members, or guildies' friends rather than LFG because they know they'll have to explain everything and take time. Even when you advertise a training in LFG you have people leaving every few minutes if it doesn't goes well or if it takes "too much time" to explain or review skills for specific classes. Had a couple of people charging the boss ("Leroooyyyy Jenkinnnns!!" syndrom) without listening or waiting for the others to be ready as they needed some explanations before we started. > > > As those statics are able to low-man a lot of bosses, they often take several trainees (it's a kind of achievement to kill a Deimos or Xera with 5 people who never did it once - I don't speak about dead people waiting for the fight to happen). So those trainees can have an insight of the fight and get their kills and be more relaxed when they enter real training runs later. > > > > > > > The same goes for high level fractals, and yet, there is little to no selling going on. Fractals are my main source of income, and I trained my skills and invested time there instead of farming SW, and so did many others. And no, T4 fractals and cms are not easy content that everybody can do. > > > > Fractal players are simply more willing to carry someone, I have no idea why that is the case. It doesn't even make sense to me. A T4 fractal takes average 10 minutes and you only need 3 or 4 skilled players. 1 or 2 players can die and you still get through. A raid kill takes only 6 minutes in some cases. A Samarog kill by a low dps group takes as long as a fractal. Samarog can easily be killed by 7 or 8 skilled players in a reasonable amount of time. For me, it sounds weird that you absolutely need that 50+LI player to fill the last spot if the others are skilled and you are not a speed clear group. > > > > Maybe it's the legendary armor. People who want it and don't have the connections you need to actually raid might be inclined to pay for it. This creates that market where raiders are actually lowering the value of their titles and items by taking money in exchange for them. The only legendary item you get from fractals is the backpack, and getting it is not as difficult as getting legendary armor. Shattered Observatory cm is the only fractal that comes close to having a similarily high entry barrier. You simply cannot do it if you haven't done it successfully before or have the connections that allow you to join in. In this case, I almost get it because one player can actually mess up the whole run for everybody else. It's harder than most raids. > > > > If legendary armor is the reason for the raid selling situation, I sure hope they'll never add fractal legendary armor. Btw, I already don't connect any prestige to those raid titles anymore, they lost their value when raiders started to sell them or cheated to get them, like this Dhuum cm title. > > Titles have zero value. They never had value. Just like AP never has had value. You can't lower the value of something without value, you just end up at the same number. You may have pride in your accomplishment, and good for you. You should have pride in your abilities. If you need a title to "prove" it to other people... yeah, no one cares except you. No one can take away what you have accomplished on your own. It's actually impossible. Carries have always existed... they will continue to exist... a lot of times they don't even take gold, just some competent friends who take pity on you. This, by your estimation, would also diminish the "value" of your title. So people should be a-holes to their friends because it diminishes value on a few bits of data in an on-line game, right? So ask yourself.. if it has no value.. why do so many go out, use RMT in order to obtain it?? If these things have no value to players why are spots up for sale in order to get them?? Of course they have a value, not necessarily monetary I grant, but that's the whole point of them.. not everyone goes after the shinnies or the titles or the AP's .. but many do, that's why they are there and that's why players buy/sell spots for them. At least think about what your saying before coming out with this nonsense please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > So ask yourself.. if it has no value.. why do so many go out, use RMT in order to obtain it?? > If these things have no value to players why are spots up for sale in order to get them?? I can't fully answer your question, since i wasn't buying any runs, but for me it's not for prestige. I am interested in legendary armor, because i like the look of the heavy (and, to a certain point, light) skin, and i do find the QoL of stat-swapping to be useful. Also, i find the magnetites to be the best source of ascended weapons and armor at the moment. I went for achievements, because i was interested in hellfire skin (and i do like the fact that the AP points go up, besides i _am_ a completionist). I don't associate any prestige with either of those - i don't really care about titles (unless they sound nice to me), and i wanted envoy heavy primarily because it was one of the best-looking heavy armors around (well, apart for the helmet, i'd rather it didn't transform to this monstrosity, i vastly prefer its untransformed state). Also, again, i was a completionist, and was unhappy that a purple-named gear tier was locked out from me. That the acquisition of those things represents some kind of challenge? I never cared about it (well, beyond the fact that it might have hindered my attepts to obtain it). It's a game for kitten's sake. I am not going to treat seriously anyone trying to posture for a prestige in a game. Well, unless they are a professional player earning a ton of money on it - that's something i might respect. Otherwise, it's (for me) comparable to asking to be recognized for your skill in snowball throwing. Why should i even care about that (well, unless one of the snowballs ends up being thrown at my window)? So, i don't really understand the problem. If you think that raid selling is a problem, remove the incentives from raids. Problem solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstealer.5978 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Bloodstealer.5978" said: > > So ask yourself.. if it has no value.. why do so many go out, use RMT in order to obtain it?? > > If these things have no value to players why are spots up for sale in order to get them?? > I can't fully answer your question, since i wasn't buying any runs, but for me it's not for prestige. I am interested in legendary armor, because i like the look of the heavy (and, to a certain point, light) skin, and i do find the QoL of stat-swapping to be useful. Also, i find the magnetites to be the best source of ascended weapons and armor at the moment. I went for achievements, because i was interested in hellfire skin (and i do like the fact that the AP points go up, besides i _am_ a completionist). I don't associate any prestige with either of those - i don't really care about titles (unless they sound nice to me), and i wanted envoy heavy primarily because it was one of the best-looking heavy armors around (well, apart for the helmet, i'd rather it didn't transform to this monstrosity, i vastly prefer its untransformed state). Also, again, i was a completionist, and was unhappy that a purple-named gear tier was locked out from me. > > That the acquisition of those things represents some kind of challenge? I never cared about it (well, beyond the fact that it might have hindered my attepts to obtain it). It's a game for kitten's sake. I am not going to treat seriously anyone trying to posture for a prestige in a game. Well, unless they are a professional player earning a ton of money on it - that's something i might respect. Otherwise, it's (for me) comparable to asking to be recognized for your skill in snowball throwing. Why should i even care about that (well, unless one of the snowballs ends up being thrown at my window)? > > So, i don't really understand the problem. If you think that raid selling is a problem, remove the incentives from raids. Problem solved. > > Lol.. if they take the incentives away.. yep problem solved, but then no one would want to run them. The armours you want wont be there, the achievements won't be there and yes some want the titles etc...thus taking that all away leaves no real value in running the raids, the dungeons etc.. but that is the wrong way to sort the problem. Why put time money and effort into designing the content if no one has a carrot to run them... so the answer is simple.. don't change the content, enforce proper rules... ban selling of runs, it creates security issues, it creates scamming opportunities and it prevents threads like this continually rearing its head. OR.. if ANET want to allow it.. then support it fully, nuts bolts and all, not some half baked in and out statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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