Disillusion of choice: death of Mesmer builds

[rhall.8150]

I’ve been playing Mesmer since 2012 and I have to say I’m more disappointed in the balance patch than any before. ANet has taken a entire gameplay of a class and narrowed down the builds to only shatter. Phantasms are clunky, not worth the payoff, and are nothing more than the warband from the Renegade class. Phantasmal defender and signet of ether skills I used in both PVE and PVP have been nerfed to the ground to the point that sustain builds are not a realistic competitive option.

 

I get that ANet was trying to make the class more active but in consequence they completely changed the feel and play of Mesmer. Entire trait lines have been changed and half of our illusions are barely more than useless. A suggestion I might make for ANet devs is that they make this new form of phantasms an option for mesmers as a trait, say in the illusions line, that changes phantasms into a one attack illusion before turning into clones. That way we have the choice as to how we want to run our characters. If they want to combat passive play, they should find another way of doing it, rather than punishing us all for the actions of a specific few in a specific game mode (raids)

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

I kinda disagree, i have been trying various different trait lines seeing different benefits of each. I quite like the changes they have made but i do feel that the Phantasm attacks could be improved considering the cool downs. It would also be nice if they reduced the cool downs of illusions even if its not by the 20% of the deleted trait, even 10% would be helpful.

 

I am kinda disappointed by the change made to iDisenchanter, that was a great phantasm that was good at condi removal and boon removal. While the new one can do a lot of damage, it does seem odd that it removes up to 5 boons but doing so will mean it does less damage, think it would have been better if it did its creased damage per a Boon removed, this way it would be useful against boon spamming builds rather than useless against them.

 

There are defo some changes that they could make to improve things, kinda feel like SoE could do with tweaks, improvements to Healing Co-effient and a cool down reduction would be very welcome. I think iDefender has WAY too long a cool down. Like its SERIOUSLY too long.

[Bod.8261]

Captain Disillusion here,

choice is always an illusion in MMOs because most of the time it's only the choice between good and terrible.

 

I don't know what kind of build you were playing, but the changes to phantasms were meant for raids because that's the only place were they matter.

In solo PvE mobs die so fast you could never really stack phantasms. PvP even more so: Phantasms always have been shatter fodder with a special attack they use once, maybe twice. You're better of shattering them before they die to AoE.

 

If you don't raid you probably shouldn't even feel that much of a difference. The changes to confusion and related skills had more impact on the meta.

If you don't like shattering, you can still have decent performance with an ambush mirage build.

[Jitsuryoku.9038]

> @"Bod.8261" said:

> .... the changes to phantasms were meant for raids because that's the only place were they matter.

 

I disagree with that part, because phantasms are a HUUUGE part of pvp/wvw chrono. In WvW chrono had a lot of sustain and general support with phantasms, that is now kind of broken and transfered into more burst potential.

 

With that said, I can see the disappointment of the new mesmer, as it completely broke most of the old builds / playstyles and people have to look for new ways to play it. I can't take side on whether this is good or bad, but I'm definitely not too happy about all of my condi mesmer builds getting destroyed by recent changes (to phantasms and confusion.

[Levetty.1279]

I like how people try to make out that this was a bad change brought on by Raids when Raids (well certain boss fights) was one of the only place where the bad Phantasm mechanic could work.

 

Anyway Mesmer has much more choice now then before. For PvE we have 2 viable power builds, a support and a Condi builds. The condi build now has a reason to bring a second off hand and pretty much any of them are viable for it. All builds have access to all their weapon skills now instead of 3 or 4. Condi Mirage also doesn't use Shatters in PvE, unless you need the effect for something and then you can use them without the massive crippling that a Phantasm build would have from using them.

 

For PvP, builds change all the time, condi Mirage is probably out but that was a separate Confusion nerf. I can think of lots of builds I want to try, especially in WvW.

 

Phantasms were clunky, and not worth the payoff under the old system. They removed that problem.

 

Making this change a trait wouldn't work because part of the reason the change is so good is because they can now balance Mesmer around its skills instead of around theoretically having 3 phantasms up at once. It got a lot of damage buffs across skills and Phantasms as well as trait changes that just wouldn't or sometimes couldn't be done under the old system.

[RabbitUp.8294]

From what I've seen condi mirage doesn't use shatters in their rotation, other than Distort to get some more mirrors. And really, I find it hard to believe that completely ignoring a profession's mechanics should be a viable option, on equal footing with shatter builds. You only see rangers asking for that, and that's because of the pets' clunkiness.

 

Mesmer had similar problems, and non-shatter builds were a symptom of that. With the clunkiness of phantasms being removed, and clone generation buffed, why do you want to ignore shatters now?

[Jace al Thor.6745]

The only thing clunky about phantasms currently is how long you have to wait for them to do their rotation, especially if using chrono because the spawn-attack-spawn-attack-clone seems to take forever. But it’s a step to making the class mechanic work better and more fluidly imo. The two things I’d like to see with phantasms atm is either a buff to their damage/utility to make having some of the longer cd’s worth it or reducing the cd’s to a something akin to what was achieved with illusionists celerity.

 

As far as signet of ether- I haven’t tried it in PvP with the Sage build I occasionally run, but I took it into WvW the other night while roaming and in 1v1’s or 1v2’s it did fine. Blue had just flipped the south east camp(which was also their spawn) and I was fighting 1v2 in the camp with adds and had no problem using SoE and was able to get my stomps. But honestly, SoE was never comparable to a 3 clone ether feast for healing. It’s s bigger heal against competent players and on a shorter cd. Since SoE’s function has been changed it does need a cd reduction and at that point I would consider if comparable to Ether Feast.

 

Not to mention that no Mesmer skill/trait pairs well with healing power, our “sustain” builds don’t really exist. Sure, a Chrono running inspiration has sustain but it’s through shatter spam and restorative illusions and condition builds have staying power but a lot of it has to do with running dire/trailblazer.

[Refia Montes.3205]

You don't shatter much on a Clone Condi Mirage build. You let them stay and deal dps.

[MailMail.6534]

> @"Bod.8261" said:

> Captain Disillusion here,

> choice is always an illusion in MMOs because most of the time it's only the choice between good and terrible.

>

> I don't know what kind of build you were playing, but the changes to phantasms were meant for raids because that's the only place were they matter.

> In solo PvE mobs die so fast you could never really stack phantasms. PvP even more so: Phantasms always have been shatter fodder with a special attack they use once, maybe twice. You're better of shattering them before they die to AoE.

>

> If you don't raid you probably shouldn't even feel that much of a difference. The changes to confusion and related skills had more impact on the meta.

> If you don't like shattering, you can still have decent performance with an ambush mirage build.

 

I was going to pick about the OP's first post, but this summarizes what I was going to say entirely.

 

But also, I would heavily contest your assertion that "half of our illusions are barely more than useless." Shall we compare and contrast each phantasm from before and after? Do we really have to do this? I get the tension and frustration you must feel having to learn a slightly more active play style in the most casual of MMOs, but the end-of-world types of posts I've seen from Mesmers and other classes have exhausted me.

[MailMail.6534]

> The only thing clunky about phantasms currently is how long you have to wait for them to do their rotation, especially if using chrono because the spawn-attack-spawn-attack-clone seems to take forever.

This problem is solved if you take Phantasmal Haste. I have no problem on Chrono in this regard. Now that these phantasms are significantly buffed, I understand the rationale behind giving them long cast times.

 

> Not to mention that no Mesmer skill/trait pairs well with healing power, our “sustain” builds don’t really exist. Sure, a Chrono running inspiration has sustain but it’s through shatter spam and restorative illusions

I recommend you test Alls Well That Ends well. I tried a "bunker" build using Mender's. The healing was actually pretty crazy high.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"MailMail.6534" said:

> > The only thing clunky about phantasms currently is how long you have to wait for them to do their rotation, especially if using chrono because the spawn-attack-spawn-attack-clone seems to take forever.

> This problem is solved if you take Phantasmal Haste. I have no problem on Chrono in this regard. Now that these phantasms are significantly buffed, I understand the rationale behind giving them long cast times.

>

> > Not to mention that no Mesmer skill/trait pairs well with healing power, our “sustain” builds don’t really exist. Sure, a Chrono running inspiration has sustain but it’s through shatter spam and restorative illusions

> I recommend you test Alls Well That Ends well. I tried a "bunker" build using Mender's. The healing was actually pretty crazy high.

 

You shouldnt need moree traits to make them so hey arent really slow, the damage is kinda low to begin with and no longer have access tot he cool down trait either so i defo think either damage needs to be imrpoved or they need to be quicker in spawning and doing their attacks without need ing additional traits.

 

 

[Windwalker.7421]

MailMail is right, an Insp Chrono build with AWtEW definitely has sustain.

 

Especially with traited Staff you are pretty tough to kill...

 

 

[OriOri.8724]

Look, I'm not completely happy with the changes we got either. But give Anet time to address this. Whether you want to admit it or not, the mesmer class needed such a fundamental change. In the long run, this was more healthy for mesmer than for Anet to continuously try to balance phantasms vs clones, and all of the separate issues there (like keeping phantasms versus shattering them, phantasms with mirage etc...). Give Anet time to address the issues that this patch created, but ultimately its for the better for mesmer

[Arceno.8214]

I am loving the "new mesmer". We have so many build choices its insane to think about it. And also condi mirage is in my opinion better than ever.

I personally couldn't be happier how mesmer turned out. I get that it doesn't have the unique skills like it had before, but with variety of builds and how strong dps wise it is in general now, i really don't understan't the complaints. When anet decide to suddenly tone down things, what will you do then? Complain of the low dps and only 1 viable build?

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> Phantasms were clunky, and not worth the payoff under the old system. They removed that problem.

>

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> Making this change a trait wouldn't work because part of the reason the change is so good is because they can now balance Mesmer around its skills instead of around theoretically having 3 phantasms up at once. It got a lot of damage buffs across skills and Phantasms as well as trait changes that just wouldn't or sometimes couldn't be done under the old system.

 

So which is it? Are phantasms not worth the payoff so mesmer's skills needed to be upgraded or where 3 phantasms too good thus holding back balancing mesmer skills properly?

 

These statements seem contradictory. If 3 phantasms were too good, the inherent "clunkiness" and holding your illusion slots for shatters seems to equal up to a "pay off" of having them around. If 3 phantasms isn't too strong then it is perfectly viable to rebalance mesmer attacks as well as a trait that converts persisting phantasms to temporary phantasms (or vise versa depending how one wishes to balance).

 

You're not making any sense.

[Refia Montes.3205]

So you're basically complaning about skills that no one used? SoE was never a good PvP option, it's more of a PvE option for its passive healing and Phantasm reset. Additionally, Phantasmal Defender was never used anywhere, well maybe casuals like you do, but it was never used in high level PvE and PvP. The only times you saw them are through the Mental Defense in PvP for Chrono Inspiration builds. To add, nobody used it because it absorbed damage. They only used it as a way to generate more Phantasms for more Shatterspam in Chrono.

 

Now SoE is still the same, and allows you to still get the bonus even when Shattering and Phantasmal Defender became from a borderline useless skill to a powerful AoE nuke when timed right. It also is awesome CC and functions well with the new Chronophantasma.

[Refia Montes.3205]

To add about Phantasms, they're better than before. You can now have more than 3 Phantasms at a time if you time it right.

[Leo G.4501]

Of course, you slather a little DPS on it to shut up the "hardcore"s and no one will care about what the "casuals" say.

[Refia Montes.3205]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> Of course, you slather a little DPS on it to shut up the "hardcore"s and no one will care about what the "casuals" say.

 

The thing is, there are also casuals that like that like the changes. Hardcores might also hate the changes, so in the end where do you base your balance? In objective facts about the current state of the profession and its skills. Balancing stuff around "what's liked" or not isn't good for the game in the long term.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > Of course, you slather a little DPS on it to shut up the "hardcore"s and no one will care about what the "casuals" say.

>

> The thing is, there are also casuals that like that like the changes. Hardcores might also hate the changes, so in the end where do you base your balance? In objective facts about the current state of the profession and its skills. Balancing stuff around "what's liked" or not isn't good for the game in the long term.

 

So then what was the purpose of saying: "Additionally, Phantasmal Defender was never used anywhere, well maybe casuals like you do" if you're going to play the "don't generalize" card?

[Levetty.1279]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > Phantasms were clunky, and not worth the payoff under the old system. They removed that problem.

> >

> > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > Making this change a trait wouldn't work because part of the reason the change is so good is because they can now balance Mesmer around its skills instead of around theoretically having 3 phantasms up at once. It got a lot of damage buffs across skills and Phantasms as well as trait changes that just wouldn't or sometimes couldn't be done under the old system.

>

> So which is it? Are phantasms not worth the payoff so mesmer's skills needed to be upgraded or where 3 phantasms too good thus holding back balancing mesmer skills properly?

>

> These statements seem contradictory. If 3 phantasms were too good, the inherent "clunkiness" and holding your illusion slots for shatters seems to equal up to a "pay off" of having them around. If 3 phantasms isn't too strong then it is perfectly viable to rebalance mesmer attacks as well as a trait that converts persisting phantasms to temporary phantasms (or vise versa depending how one wishes to balance).

>

> You're not making any sense.

 

Mesmer had to be balanced around theoretically having 3 Phantasms out at all time. In practice it was clunky so didn't happen and the payoff was single target DPS with high ramp up time. Pretty simple.

 

You are also missing out where I said a lot of the better changes they were able to do because Phantasms were not permanent. Yeah they could have done stuff like increase GS auto attack damage and put a damage modifier on Chrono traits with the old system but they could not do stuff like the new Chronophantasma and all its synergies or the big damage increases to iSwordsman and iDisenchanter.

[Refia Montes.3205]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > Of course, you slather a little DPS on it to shut up the "hardcore"s and no one will care about what the "casuals" say.

> >

> > The thing is, there are also casuals that like that like the changes. Hardcores might also hate the changes, so in the end where do you base your balance? In objective facts about the current state of the profession and its skills. Balancing stuff around "what's liked" or not isn't good for the game in the long term.

>

> So then what was the purpose of saying: "Additionally, Phantasmal Defender was never used anywhere, well maybe casuals like you do" if you're going to play the "don't generalize" card?

 

because objectively, Phantasmal Defender was a bad utility skill. Nobody used it in either high end PvP or PvE.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > Phantasms were clunky, and not worth the payoff under the old system. They removed that problem.

> > >

> > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > Making this change a trait wouldn't work because part of the reason the change is so good is because they can now balance Mesmer around its skills instead of around theoretically having 3 phantasms up at once. It got a lot of damage buffs across skills and Phantasms as well as trait changes that just wouldn't or sometimes couldn't be done under the old system.

> >

> > So which is it? Are phantasms not worth the payoff so mesmer's skills needed to be upgraded or where 3 phantasms too good thus holding back balancing mesmer skills properly?

> >

> > These statements seem contradictory. If 3 phantasms were too good, the inherent "clunkiness" and holding your illusion slots for shatters seems to equal up to a "pay off" of having them around. If 3 phantasms isn't too strong then it is perfectly viable to rebalance mesmer attacks as well as a trait that converts persisting phantasms to temporary phantasms (or vise versa depending how one wishes to balance).

> >

> > You're not making any sense.

>

> Mesmer had to be balanced around theoretically having 3 Phantasms out at all time. In practice it was clunky so didn't happen and the payoff was single target DPS with high ramp up time. Pretty simple.

>

> You are also missing out where I said a lot of the better changes they were able to do because Phantasms were not permanent. Yeah they could have done stuff like increase GS auto attack damage and put a damage modifier on Chrono traits with the old system but they could not do stuff like the new Chronophantasma and all its synergies or the big damage increases to iSwordsman and iDisenchanter.

 

The premise of balancing the power of 3 phantasms is simply logical. The fallacy that the entire profession must be balanced AROUND that particular aspect is only an issue exacerbated by the changes the devs themselves issued only 6 months ago, where ramping long-lasting phantasms *became* the point of balance.

 

Because that premise is self-defeating, it's wrong to assume that just getting rid of phantasms was the only or best solution. Had they instead made Phantasmal force do the opposite, and have *diminishing* power (which logically makes more sense, as the longer you keep up a lie, the harder it is to maintain), it would be simple to balance having Phantasms stick around and then consider the degree of diminishment would then determine the best opportunity to shatter.

 

The whole premise that phantasms cause discord for utilizing the profession mechanic is only true if keeping 3 phantasms is optimal. If it is, then adjust it rather than remove it.

 

And they very well could have changed all the things you listed. If there's a will, there's a way. If the devs don't have the will to keep their gameplay consistent, they can simply admit to that. They mentioned things like Berserker's Power and Adrenal Health as similar changes but forget that those traits were only a part of the problem, the other being the burst skills at the time were bad and had they fixed one without the other, Warrior gameplay wouldn't have changed at all.

 

> @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > Of course, you slather a little DPS on it to shut up the "hardcore"s and no one will care about what the "casuals" say.

> > >

> > > The thing is, there are also casuals that like that like the changes. Hardcores might also hate the changes, so in the end where do you base your balance? In objective facts about the current state of the profession and its skills. Balancing stuff around "what's liked" or not isn't good for the game in the long term.

> >

> > So then what was the purpose of saying: "Additionally, Phantasmal Defender was never used anywhere, well maybe casuals like you do" if you're going to play the "don't generalize" card?

>

> because objectively, Phantasmal Defender was a bad utility skill. Nobody used it in either high end PvP or PvE.

 

Which returns back to my original statement: "slather a little DPS on it to shut up the "hardcore"s and no one will care about what the "casuals" say."

[Obtena.7952]

If you want to be highly rewarded for a very passive playstyle, it appears Mesmer is no longer in that category.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > > Phantasms were clunky, and not worth the payoff under the old system. They removed that problem.

> > > >

> > > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > > Making this change a trait wouldn't work because part of the reason the change is so good is because they can now balance Mesmer around its skills instead of around theoretically having 3 phantasms up at once. It got a lot of damage buffs across skills and Phantasms as well as trait changes that just wouldn't or sometimes couldn't be done under the old system.

> > >

> > > So which is it? Are phantasms not worth the payoff so mesmer's skills needed to be upgraded or where 3 phantasms too good thus holding back balancing mesmer skills properly?

> > >

> > > These statements seem contradictory. If 3 phantasms were too good, the inherent "clunkiness" and holding your illusion slots for shatters seems to equal up to a "pay off" of having them around. If 3 phantasms isn't too strong then it is perfectly viable to rebalance mesmer attacks as well as a trait that converts persisting phantasms to temporary phantasms (or vise versa depending how one wishes to balance).

> > >

> > > You're not making any sense.

> >

> > Mesmer had to be balanced around theoretically having 3 Phantasms out at all time. In practice it was clunky so didn't happen and the payoff was single target DPS with high ramp up time. Pretty simple.

> >

> > You are also missing out where I said a lot of the better changes they were able to do because Phantasms were not permanent. Yeah they could have done stuff like increase GS auto attack damage and put a damage modifier on Chrono traits with the old system but they could not do stuff like the new Chronophantasma and all its synergies or the big damage increases to iSwordsman and iDisenchanter.

>

> The premise of balancing the power of 3 phantasms is simply logical. The fallacy that the entire profession must be balanced AROUND that particular aspect is only an issue exacerbated by the changes the devs themselves issued only 6 months ago, where ramping long-lasting phantasms *became* the point of balance.

>

> Because that premise is self-defeating, it's wrong to assume that just getting rid of phantasms was the only or best solution. Had they instead made Phantasmal force do the opposite, and have *diminishing* power (which logically makes more sense, as the longer you keep up a lie, the harder it is to maintain), it would be simple to balance having Phantasms stick around and then consider the degree of diminishment would then determine the best opportunity to shatter.

>

> The whole premise that phantasms cause discord for utilizing the profession mechanic is only true if keeping 3 phantasms is optimal. If it is, then adjust it rather than remove it.

>

> And they very well could have changed all the things you listed. If there's a will, there's a way. If the devs don't have the will to keep their gameplay consistent, they can simply admit to that. They mentioned things like Berserker's Power and Adrenal Health as similar changes but forget that those traits were only a part of the problem, the other being the burst skills at the time were bad and had they fixed one without the other, Warrior gameplay wouldn't have changed at all.

>

> > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > Of course, you slather a little DPS on it to shut up the "hardcore"s and no one will care about what the "casuals" say.

> > > >

> > > > The thing is, there are also casuals that like that like the changes. Hardcores might also hate the changes, so in the end where do you base your balance? In objective facts about the current state of the profession and its skills. Balancing stuff around "what's liked" or not isn't good for the game in the long term.

> > >

> > > So then what was the purpose of saying: "Additionally, Phantasmal Defender was never used anywhere, well maybe casuals like you do" if you're going to play the "don't generalize" card?

> >

> > because objectively, Phantasmal Defender was a bad utility skill. Nobody used it in either high end PvP or PvE.

>

> Which returns back to my original statement: "slather a little DPS on it to shut up the "hardcore"s and no one will care about what the "casuals" say."

 

Phantasms are still there, they didn't just get rid of them, they're just like a normal powerful cooldown now rather than sitting there while they do literally 90% of the work (that's not healthy for gameplay). Having phantasmal force go backwards would've just made nobody take that trait, nobody would've thought "Oh hey after a little while I can shatter these now since they're useless" upon seeing that trait, they would've just taken literally any other GM because why would you waste your time with something like that when you can keep your AA passive gameplay.