Disillusion of choice: death of Mesmer builds

[Levetty.1279]

So your solution to the Phantasm/Clone/Shatter problem was to make Phantasms too weak to use? If there too weak to bother to use then it doesn't matter if they are permanent or not in the first place. I much prefer Anets answer which was to make them non permanent and strong.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > > > Phantasms were clunky, and not worth the payoff under the old system. They removed that problem.

> > > > >

> > > > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > > > Making this change a trait wouldn't work because part of the reason the change is so good is because they can now balance Mesmer around its skills instead of around theoretically having 3 phantasms up at once. It got a lot of damage buffs across skills and Phantasms as well as trait changes that just wouldn't or sometimes couldn't be done under the old system.

> > > >

> > > > So which is it? Are phantasms not worth the payoff so mesmer's skills needed to be upgraded or where 3 phantasms too good thus holding back balancing mesmer skills properly?

> > > >

> > > > These statements seem contradictory. If 3 phantasms were too good, the inherent "clunkiness" and holding your illusion slots for shatters seems to equal up to a "pay off" of having them around. If 3 phantasms isn't too strong then it is perfectly viable to rebalance mesmer attacks as well as a trait that converts persisting phantasms to temporary phantasms (or vise versa depending how one wishes to balance).

> > > >

> > > > You're not making any sense.

> > >

> > > Mesmer had to be balanced around theoretically having 3 Phantasms out at all time. In practice it was clunky so didn't happen and the payoff was single target DPS with high ramp up time. Pretty simple.

> > >

> > > You are also missing out where I said a lot of the better changes they were able to do because Phantasms were not permanent. Yeah they could have done stuff like increase GS auto attack damage and put a damage modifier on Chrono traits with the old system but they could not do stuff like the new Chronophantasma and all its synergies or the big damage increases to iSwordsman and iDisenchanter.

> >

> > The premise of balancing the power of 3 phantasms is simply logical. The fallacy that the entire profession must be balanced AROUND that particular aspect is only an issue exacerbated by the changes the devs themselves issued only 6 months ago, where ramping long-lasting phantasms *became* the point of balance.

> >

> > Because that premise is self-defeating, it's wrong to assume that just getting rid of phantasms was the only or best solution. Had they instead made Phantasmal force do the opposite, and have *diminishing* power (which logically makes more sense, as the longer you keep up a lie, the harder it is to maintain), it would be simple to balance having Phantasms stick around and then consider the degree of diminishment would then determine the best opportunity to shatter.

> >

> > The whole premise that phantasms cause discord for utilizing the profession mechanic is only true if keeping 3 phantasms is optimal. If it is, then adjust it rather than remove it.

> >

> > And they very well could have changed all the things you listed. If there's a will, there's a way. If the devs don't have the will to keep their gameplay consistent, they can simply admit to that. They mentioned things like Berserker's Power and Adrenal Health as similar changes but forget that those traits were only a part of the problem, the other being the burst skills at the time were bad and had they fixed one without the other, Warrior gameplay wouldn't have changed at all.

> >

> > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > Of course, you slather a little DPS on it to shut up the "hardcore"s and no one will care about what the "casuals" say.

> > > > >

> > > > > The thing is, there are also casuals that like that like the changes. Hardcores might also hate the changes, so in the end where do you base your balance? In objective facts about the current state of the profession and its skills. Balancing stuff around "what's liked" or not isn't good for the game in the long term.

> > > >

> > > > So then what was the purpose of saying: "Additionally, Phantasmal Defender was never used anywhere, well maybe casuals like you do" if you're going to play the "don't generalize" card?

> > >

> > > because objectively, Phantasmal Defender was a bad utility skill. Nobody used it in either high end PvP or PvE.

> >

> > Which returns back to my original statement: "slather a little DPS on it to shut up the "hardcore"s and no one will care about what the "casuals" say."

>

> Phantasms are still there, they didn't just get rid of them, they're just like a normal powerful cooldown now rather than sitting there while they do literally 90% of the work (that's not healthy for gameplay). Having phantasmal force go backwards would've just made nobody take that trait, nobody would've thought "Oh hey after a little while I can shatter these now since they're useless" upon seeing that trait, they would've just taken literally any other GM because why would you waste your time with something like that when you can keep your AA passive gameplay.

 

That makes no sense.

 

By your logic, phantasms are useless now because "Oh hey, after I press this button, I can get a useless clone to shatter". A reverse phantasmal force is basically exactly what the current phantasms are except with any added utility granted from having them around at all so is basically get a meaty attack from them and either shatter them or wait until the cooldown is done, shatter and resummon.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> So your solution to the Phantasm/Clone/Shatter problem was to make Phantasms too weak to use? If there too weak to bother to use then it doesn't matter if they are permanent or not in the first place. I much prefer Anets answer which was to make them non permanent and strong.

 

The thing is, phantasm mesmer wasn't all that to begin with before Phantasmal Force was added. The point of contention here is having the phantasm build as the point to which mesmer is balanced, not how effective a specific build is or isn't. If we're talking about how effective a specific build is, outright removing it is a lazy solution to making it balanced or more engaging.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > > > > Phantasms were clunky, and not worth the payoff under the old system. They removed that problem.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > > > > Making this change a trait wouldn't work because part of the reason the change is so good is because they can now balance Mesmer around its skills instead of around theoretically having 3 phantasms up at once. It got a lot of damage buffs across skills and Phantasms as well as trait changes that just wouldn't or sometimes couldn't be done under the old system.

> > > > >

> > > > > So which is it? Are phantasms not worth the payoff so mesmer's skills needed to be upgraded or where 3 phantasms too good thus holding back balancing mesmer skills properly?

> > > > >

> > > > > These statements seem contradictory. If 3 phantasms were too good, the inherent "clunkiness" and holding your illusion slots for shatters seems to equal up to a "pay off" of having them around. If 3 phantasms isn't too strong then it is perfectly viable to rebalance mesmer attacks as well as a trait that converts persisting phantasms to temporary phantasms (or vise versa depending how one wishes to balance).

> > > > >

> > > > > You're not making any sense.

> > > >

> > > > Mesmer had to be balanced around theoretically having 3 Phantasms out at all time. In practice it was clunky so didn't happen and the payoff was single target DPS with high ramp up time. Pretty simple.

> > > >

> > > > You are also missing out where I said a lot of the better changes they were able to do because Phantasms were not permanent. Yeah they could have done stuff like increase GS auto attack damage and put a damage modifier on Chrono traits with the old system but they could not do stuff like the new Chronophantasma and all its synergies or the big damage increases to iSwordsman and iDisenchanter.

> > >

> > > The premise of balancing the power of 3 phantasms is simply logical. The fallacy that the entire profession must be balanced AROUND that particular aspect is only an issue exacerbated by the changes the devs themselves issued only 6 months ago, where ramping long-lasting phantasms *became* the point of balance.

> > >

> > > Because that premise is self-defeating, it's wrong to assume that just getting rid of phantasms was the only or best solution. Had they instead made Phantasmal force do the opposite, and have *diminishing* power (which logically makes more sense, as the longer you keep up a lie, the harder it is to maintain), it would be simple to balance having Phantasms stick around and then consider the degree of diminishment would then determine the best opportunity to shatter.

> > >

> > > The whole premise that phantasms cause discord for utilizing the profession mechanic is only true if keeping 3 phantasms is optimal. If it is, then adjust it rather than remove it.

> > >

> > > And they very well could have changed all the things you listed. If there's a will, there's a way. If the devs don't have the will to keep their gameplay consistent, they can simply admit to that. They mentioned things like Berserker's Power and Adrenal Health as similar changes but forget that those traits were only a part of the problem, the other being the burst skills at the time were bad and had they fixed one without the other, Warrior gameplay wouldn't have changed at all.

> > >

> > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > @"Refia Montes.3205" said:

> > > > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > > > > Of course, you slather a little DPS on it to shut up the "hardcore"s and no one will care about what the "casuals" say.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The thing is, there are also casuals that like that like the changes. Hardcores might also hate the changes, so in the end where do you base your balance? In objective facts about the current state of the profession and its skills. Balancing stuff around "what's liked" or not isn't good for the game in the long term.

> > > > >

> > > > > So then what was the purpose of saying: "Additionally, Phantasmal Defender was never used anywhere, well maybe casuals like you do" if you're going to play the "don't generalize" card?

> > > >

> > > > because objectively, Phantasmal Defender was a bad utility skill. Nobody used it in either high end PvP or PvE.

> > >

> > > Which returns back to my original statement: "slather a little DPS on it to shut up the "hardcore"s and no one will care about what the "casuals" say."

> >

> > Phantasms are still there, they didn't just get rid of them, they're just like a normal powerful cooldown now rather than sitting there while they do literally 90% of the work (that's not healthy for gameplay). Having phantasmal force go backwards would've just made nobody take that trait, nobody would've thought "Oh hey after a little while I can shatter these now since they're useless" upon seeing that trait, they would've just taken literally any other GM because why would you waste your time with something like that when you can keep your AA passive gameplay.

>

> That makes no sense.

>

> By your logic, phantasms are useless now because "Oh hey, after I press this button, I can get a useless clone to shatter". A reverse phantasmal force is basically exactly what the current phantasms are except with any added utility granted from having them around at all so is basically get a meaty attack from them and either shatter them or wait until the cooldown is done, shatter and resummon.

 

That wasn't my logic at all, but thanks for showing me the depths of your 'understanding' of mesmer. Instead of the previous thought process of 'oh hey i get to press this button and wait another 15 or so seconds before my damage moves up another step while I use my mediocre personal skills and ignore my class mechanic completely because then i have wait another 15 or so seconds after 30 or so more seconds to get back up to full damage if i don't,' to 'oh each illusion feeds into shatters, making it so I can use more skills without wasting the illusions i already have up.'

 

Leaving phantasm mesmer as is would have been lazy. Phantasms were a glaring issue, especially since ANet has been wanting to shift towards rewarding active gameplay for a long time, shatters being the obvious way to have more active gameplay.

[Tales.3105]

I kinda share some sentiments with OP. But my biggest ire with this patch is that mesmer class previously is a class that have many choices. In terms of rotation for boon up time etc. Ask different boon share mesmers and they each have their own version of rotation they developed. But now everything is being streamlined to rotations that doesn't give space and margin of errors.

 

It means to do well, players need to play near perfect in order to sustain the boons they are suppose to provide. While previous mesmer have more breathing space. Now, one mistake in rotation makes it really hard to recover.

 

Don't get me wrong. I think the phantasm changes is a good thing. It opens up more space for other classes to step up. But the fact that it demands players to be near perfect makes it tiring to play the boon share chrono and its already a huge decision to play boon share chrono since its not exactly a class everyone enjoys.

 

Tl;dr they made boon share chrono less fun/harder to play for a support role that not many people enjoy.

 

Also, the irony of Revs having easier time to provide alacrity is kinda sad imo.

 

These are just my 2 cents.

[Refia Montes.3205]

> @"Tales.3105" said:

> I kinda share some sentiments with OP. But my biggest ire with this patch is that mesmer class previously is a class that have many choices. In terms of rotation for boon up time etc. Ask different boon share mesmers and they each have their own version of rotation they developed. But now everything is being streamlined to rotations that doesn't give space and margin of errors.

>

> It means to do well, players need to play near perfect in order to sustain the boons they are suppose to provide. While previous mesmer have more breathing space. Now, one mistake in rotation makes it really hard to recover.

>

> Don't get me wrong. I think the phantasm changes is a good thing. It opens up more space for other classes to step up. But the fact that it demands players to be near perfect makes it tiring to play the boon share chrono and its already a huge decision to play boon share chrono since its not exactly a class everyone enjoys.

>

> Tl;dr they made boon share chrono less fun/harder to play for a support role that not many people enjoy.

>

> Also, the irony of Revs having easier time to provide alacrity is kinda sad imo.

>

> These are just my 2 cents.

 

Have you even played the new builds now? It's the same build and a slightly different rotation. You can even play Chaos/Inspiration now that upkeeps 15-20 might, fury, alacrity and quickness on a much easier facerolly rotation. The patch also opened up many new builds for Chronomancer if you've been following. Before only boon support is the only way for chrono with variations of traits rotations. But in the end they all perform the same roles. Right now, there's two viable Power DPS builds for Chrono to add and a Healer build with Well spam. Many choices before? I'd say we have much more build diversity now.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> So your solution to the Phantasm/Clone/Shatter problem was to make Phantasms too weak to use? If there too weak to bother to use then it doesn't matter if they are permanent or not in the first place. I much prefer Anets answer which was to make them non permanent and strong.

 

I'd say its debatable if they are "strong" its much better this way but they still need tweaks and improvements. The loss of the cool down trait and no counter to that isnt very good for ALL illusions. The guttering of iDisenchanter really hurts condi removal as well :( Some of them (well most...) needs a buff in damage to ocunter the fact that they deal their damage once as well as the fact they now have longer cool downs.

[Hot Boy.7138]

i feel like anet is improving diversity. The only thing I feel like we are really missing is a legit healing build, and a viable PvE power mirage build that I've been asking for since August!

[Refia Montes.3205]

> @"Hot Boy.7138" said:

> i feel like anet is improving diversity. The only thing I feel like we are really missing is a legit healing build, and a viable PvE power mirage build that I've been asking for since August!

 

Just play Power Spamtasm Chrono

[Levetty.1279]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> That makes no sense.

>

> By your logic, phantasms are useless now because "Oh hey, after I press this button, I can get a useless clone to shatter". A reverse phantasmal force is basically exactly what the current phantasms are except with any added utility granted from having them around at all so is basically get a meaty attack from them and either shatter them or wait until the cooldown is done, shatter and resummon.

 

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > So your solution to the Phantasm/Clone/Shatter problem was to make Phantasms too weak to use? If there too weak to bother to use then it doesn't matter if they are permanent or not in the first place. I much prefer Anets answer which was to make them non permanent and strong.

>

> The thing is, phantasm mesmer wasn't all that to begin with before Phantasmal Force was added. The point of contention here is having the phantasm build as the point to which mesmer is balanced, not how effective a specific build is or isn't. If we're talking about how effective a specific build is, outright removing it is a lazy solution to making it balanced or more engaging.

 

I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make anymore and honestly I am finding it harder and harder to believe you have played Mesmer either before or after this patch.

 

If you want the summon AI and keep them up to attack for you go Mirage it doesn't have the mechanical problems of the old Phantasm Mesmer and thus is actually useful in the game but I suppose you can hamstring the build by going scepter and only using a clone summoning skill every 20 seconds.

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > That makes no sense.

> >

> > By your logic, phantasms are useless now because "Oh hey, after I press this button, I can get a useless clone to shatter". A reverse phantasmal force is basically exactly what the current phantasms are except with any added utility granted from having them around at all so is basically get a meaty attack from them and either shatter them or wait until the cooldown is done, shatter and resummon.

>

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > So your solution to the Phantasm/Clone/Shatter problem was to make Phantasms too weak to use? If there too weak to bother to use then it doesn't matter if they are permanent or not in the first place. I much prefer Anets answer which was to make them non permanent and strong.

> >

> > The thing is, phantasm mesmer wasn't all that to begin with before Phantasmal Force was added. The point of contention here is having the phantasm build as the point to which mesmer is balanced, not how effective a specific build is or isn't. If we're talking about how effective a specific build is, outright removing it is a lazy solution to making it balanced or more engaging.

>

> I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make anymore and honestly I am finding it harder and harder to believe you have played Mesmer either before or after this patch.

>

> If you want the summon AI and keep them up to attack for you go Mirage it doesn't have the mechanical problems of the old Phantasm Mesmer and thus is actually useful in the game but I suppose you can hamstring the build by going scepter and only using a clone summoning skill every 20 seconds.

 

That's too much effort though, then they have to actively dodge occasionally and can't just have a chilled out fun zone passive gameplay style.

[Leo G.4501]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> That wasn't my logic at all, but thanks for showing me the depths of your 'understanding' of mesmer. Instead of the previous thought process of 'oh hey i get to press this button and wait another 15 or so seconds before my damage moves up another step while I use my mediocre personal skills and ignore my class mechanic completely because then i have wait another 15 or so seconds after 30 or so more seconds to get back up to full damage if i don't,' to 'oh each illusion feeds into shatters, making it so I can use more skills without wasting the illusions i already have up.'

>

 

The perspective of the point was prior and post the addition of Phantasmal Force, which introduced the majority of the "ramp up" being a problem. It's easy to generalize when you're moving the point of discussion from pre and post current update, post Phantasmal Force and whatever other perspective you're using to make your point but in general, when you used your "mediocre personal skills" or "ignoring your class mechanic" depended on cooldowns, primarily the cooldowns of your shatters and illusions. Trying to paint the utilization of phantasms merely as "pressing this button and waiting another 15 or so seconds" is an intentional misrepresentation and still illustrates my point: just slather some DPS on it and you can dumb down anything and the "hardcores" won't complain. And before you compare "3 phantasms and auto" to being "dumbed down", I'm not talking about whether something is active or passive but rather homogenous to every other gameplay style within the game.

 

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> Leaving phantasm mesmer as is would have been lazy. Phantasms were a glaring issue, especially since ANet has been wanting to shift towards rewarding active gameplay for a long time, shatters being the obvious way to have more active gameplay.

 

Leaving phantasm mesmer is *subjectively* lazy but *objectively* more work. Thus leaving in phantasms to cater to older established players while also adding changes to simulate these newer changes would have required more imagined changes and add another point of balance, thus more difficult and *NOT* lazy. But if that is the degree we wish to take for the sake of balance, there will only be more and more homogenization of builds over time.

 

> @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > That makes no sense.

> >

> > By your logic, phantasms are useless now because "Oh hey, after I press this button, I can get a useless clone to shatter". A reverse phantasmal force is basically exactly what the current phantasms are except with any added utility granted from having them around at all so is basically get a meaty attack from them and either shatter them or wait until the cooldown is done, shatter and resummon.

>

> > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > So your solution to the Phantasm/Clone/Shatter problem was to make Phantasms too weak to use? If there too weak to bother to use then it doesn't matter if they are permanent or not in the first place. I much prefer Anets answer which was to make them non permanent and strong.

> >

> > The thing is, phantasm mesmer wasn't all that to begin with before Phantasmal Force was added. The point of contention here is having the phantasm build as the point to which mesmer is balanced, not how effective a specific build is or isn't. If we're talking about how effective a specific build is, outright removing it is a lazy solution to making it balanced or more engaging.

>

> I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make anymore and honestly I am finding it harder and harder to believe you have played Mesmer either before or after this patch.

>

> If you want the summon AI and keep them up to attack for you go Mirage it doesn't have the mechanical problems of the old Phantasm Mesmer and thus is actually useful in the game but I suppose you can hamstring the build by going scepter and only using a clone summoning skill every 20 seconds.

 

So mirage is just a phantasm mesmer that triggers the "phantasm attack"? And no one complained about the copy/paste nature of the addition?

[Levetty.1279]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

>And no one complained about the copy/paste nature of the addition?

 

This is exactly what I mean when I said that I don't believe you have played Mesmer either before or after this patch.

 

[atlashugged.7642]

> @"rhall.8150" said:

> I’ve been playing Mesmer since 2012 and I have to say I’m more disappointed in the balance patch than any before. ANet has taken a entire gameplay of a class and narrowed down the builds to only shatter. Phantasms are clunky, not worth the payoff, and are nothing more than the warband from the Renegade class. Phantasmal defender and signet of ether skills I used in both PVE and PVP have been nerfed to the ground to the point that sustain builds are not a realistic competitive option.

>

> I get that ANet was trying to make the class more active but in consequence they completely changed the feel and play of Mesmer. Entire trait lines have been changed and half of our illusions are barely more than useless. A suggestion I might make for ANet devs is that they make this new form of phantasms an option for mesmers as a trait, say in the illusions line, that changes phantasms into a one attack illusion before turning into clones. That way we have the choice as to how we want to run our characters. If they want to combat passive play, they should find another way of doing it, rather than punishing us all for the actions of a specific few in a specific game mode (raids)

I don't feel punished. I feel like GW2 mesmer is closer now to the GW1 mesmer than it ever has been. Frankly speaking, the only way you could feel punished by this patch is if you enjoyed the passive play of phantasms before, and if you did, I'm 100% positive you would have more fun playing a summon necromancer than you would playing the old mesmer or the new mesmer.

 

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > That wasn't my logic at all, but thanks for showing me the depths of your 'understanding' of mesmer. Instead of the previous thought process of 'oh hey i get to press this button and wait another 15 or so seconds before my damage moves up another step while I use my mediocre personal skills and ignore my class mechanic completely because then i have wait another 15 or so seconds after 30 or so more seconds to get back up to full damage if i don't,' to 'oh each illusion feeds into shatters, making it so I can use more skills without wasting the illusions i already have up.'

> >

>

> The perspective of the point was prior and post the addition of Phantasmal Force, which introduced the majority of the "ramp up" being a problem. It's easy to generalize when you're moving the point of discussion from pre and post current update, post Phantasmal Force and whatever other perspective you're using to make your point but in general, when you used your "mediocre personal skills" or "ignoring your class mechanic" depended on cooldowns, primarily the cooldowns of your shatters and illusions. Trying to paint the utilization of phantasms merely as "pressing this button and waiting another 15 or so seconds" is an intentional misrepresentation and still illustrates my point: just slather some DPS on it and you can dumb down anything and the "hardcores" won't complain. And before you compare "3 phantasms and auto" to being "dumbed down", I'm not talking about whether something is active or passive but rather homogenous to every other gameplay style within the game.

>

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > Leaving phantasm mesmer as is would have been lazy. Phantasms were a glaring issue, especially since ANet has been wanting to shift towards rewarding active gameplay for a long time, shatters being the obvious way to have more active gameplay.

>

> Leaving phantasm mesmer is *subjectively* lazy but *objectively* more work. Thus leaving in phantasms to cater to older established players while also adding changes to simulate these newer changes would have required more imagined changes and add another point of balance, thus more difficult and *NOT* lazy. But if that is the degree we wish to take for the sake of balance, there will only be more and more homogenization of builds over time.

>

> > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > That makes no sense.

> > >

> > > By your logic, phantasms are useless now because "Oh hey, after I press this button, I can get a useless clone to shatter". A reverse phantasmal force is basically exactly what the current phantasms are except with any added utility granted from having them around at all so is basically get a meaty attack from them and either shatter them or wait until the cooldown is done, shatter and resummon.

> >

> > > @"Leo G.4501" said:

> > > > @"Levetty.1279" said:

> > > > So your solution to the Phantasm/Clone/Shatter problem was to make Phantasms too weak to use? If there too weak to bother to use then it doesn't matter if they are permanent or not in the first place. I much prefer Anets answer which was to make them non permanent and strong.

> > >

> > > The thing is, phantasm mesmer wasn't all that to begin with before Phantasmal Force was added. The point of contention here is having the phantasm build as the point to which mesmer is balanced, not how effective a specific build is or isn't. If we're talking about how effective a specific build is, outright removing it is a lazy solution to making it balanced or more engaging.

> >

> > I'm honestly not sure what point you are trying to make anymore and honestly I am finding it harder and harder to believe you have played Mesmer either before or after this patch.

> >

> > If you want the summon AI and keep them up to attack for you go Mirage it doesn't have the mechanical problems of the old Phantasm Mesmer and thus is actually useful in the game but I suppose you can hamstring the build by going scepter and only using a clone summoning skill every 20 seconds.

>

> So mirage is just a phantasm mesmer that triggers the "phantasm attack"? And no one complained about the copy/paste nature of the addition?

 

Ramp up was always a problem even before phantasmal force, phantasmal force just exacerbated the problem. You still had to wait 15-20 seconds just get 30% of your actual sustained DPS. And you can say this version is dumbed down as much as you want, but before the update we were the only class that had to cast our powerful skills a max of three times and then auto pilot. If that's not dumbed down, it's ridiculous. As far as homogeneity, different isn't always better, having an auto pilot class may be different but that doesn't mean it's a good idea, or healthy for gameplay or game balance (Spoiler, it wasn't good for any of the 3). And you can't say it's objectively more work either, leaving it as is would've been less actual work and actually more lazy, they probably would've just slapped a, "Phantasms do a minor shatter after they use their attack," and left it at that.

 

And i'm not painting the utilization of phantasms as press 3 buttons and auto pilot, that's literally what it actually was. You probably just used the two utility phantasms on occasion and thought that was the height of making gameplay choices. You also don't seem to realize the general gameplay of each class is fairly similar depending on whether power or condi it generally boils down to use your most powerful skills as often as you can, the previous phantasms were no different, they just did the repetitions for you.

 

The hoops you're jumping through to justify your afk farming build are amazing.

[Amethyst Lure.5624]

I heavily disagree that the phantasm change reduced builds or variety. To me, phantasm idling gameplay was not a choice, it was a lack of active gameplay - this is my view, mind. You are basically punished for even thinking about using your utility skills with that gameplay. Now you can instead build your phantasm use in a few ways, and you can freely use your tools that make you a phantasm mesmer, not a phantasm spawner only.

 

I'm very happy with the direction they're taking and i think it's fine if you agree or disagree with that, just consider what phantasm mesmer was before. When a playstyle is actively harmed by you using most other class abilities, something with the design is just not right. It's fine to have a more passive playstyle if there is design around it, so let's say instead of pressing a lot of buttons your choices matter more. But that just wasn't the reality.

[Blades of Sabatine.5639]

I will also like to add to this topic. I am not so happy with the changes that was made to our illusion. My chrono build, which I called shatter bomb, is no more. There is no way to make it work with the current illusion changes, no way. Also my Templar look with shield and sword, I cannot run this anymore since I cannot run my chrono build.

 

Although my Mirage build, I see significant boost to the damage, I am going to miss my shatter bomb build.

 

Just to add,

 

my ex build was all about using all the tools on the screen. both the weapon swap and utilities. It was a very active play style.

[moutzaheadin.4029]

> @"Blades of Sabatine.5639" said:

> I will also like to add to this topic. I am not so happy with the changes that was made to our illusion. My chrono build, which I called shatter bomb, is no more. There is no way to make it work with the current illusion changes, no way. Also my Templar look with shield and sword, I cannot run this anymore since I cannot run my chrono build.

>

> Although my Mirage build, I see significant boost to the damage, I am going to miss my shatter bomb build.

>

> Just to add,

>

> my ex build was all about using all the tools on the screen. both the weapon swap and utilities. It was a very active play style.

 

Yes I agree with you 100%. They could have saved many builds like this. They choose nerf them into Oblivion instead.

 

As long as you keep the mirage bandwagon happy the Mesmer/chrono players don't matter to Anet.

[Lanhelin.3480]

First I thought Mirage would be the way to go, but the Mirage-Dodge often is not enough to avoid damage, in lots of cases it's better for me to roll out of huge aoe fields or away from fast and at different spots (re-)appearing ones. Many encounters are designed with dodge-roll in mind. The stationary Mirage-Dodge often feels just like a drop in the ocean. At least this is my impression regarding Fracs and Dungeons.

 

So I'm testing condi with different core builds now. Though I lose the axe, the core trees seem to be the better choice, also due to the loss of condi cleaning from iDisenchanter, that I have to compensate somehow, e-g. with reliable Regeneration and Protection buffs. Currently I'm trying an Inspiration, Illusion, Domination one. Staff and Sword/Torch. Sword to also have a direct damage option for final hits. Dueling seems to benefit x/Sw and x/Pistol the most, so I don't use it for the moment.

 

Fights usually start with Staff 2 to make a mob attack the phase retreat clone, if necessary and possible then I dodge-roll away to a farther distance, then I use Staff 3 to summon the two phants, who then become clones. Signet of Illusion replaces the phase retreat clone which makes the mob start to run and attack me or another clone which causes torment to do more damage. This worked quite well so far. Though I'm still figuring out a good build for this purpose.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"Blades of Sabatine.5639" said:

> I will also like to add to this topic. I am not so happy with the changes that was made to our illusion. My chrono build, which I called shatter bomb, is no more. There is no way to make it work with the current illusion changes, no way. Also my Templar look with shield and sword, I cannot run this anymore since I cannot run my chrono build.

>

> Although my Mirage build, I see significant boost to the damage, I am going to miss my shatter bomb build.

>

> Just to add,

>

> my ex build was all about using all the tools on the screen. both the weapon swap and utilities. It was a very active play style.

 

So you’re upset that you can’t spam shatters now and actually have to do a little bit of set up? So what? You still have super speed, chronophantasma was reworked to fit with the new phantasm design but that’s nothing new for Mesmer. You can still produce clones galore. Heck even more than that now you can have three clones and depending on your weapon sets an unlimited number of phantasms out which if you time everything well will revert to clones in time for a constant stream of shattering.

 

I for one am glad they got rid of shatter spam, it made it too easy now you actually have to think about what you’re doing. This patch was a decent patch for Mesmer.

Did they change the function of our utility phantasm? Yep, but good lord we have access to multiple sources of boon removal, adapt and move on.

 

Did they nerf confusion? Yup nerfed it across the board. The writing was on the wall though so if you didn’t see it coming well that sucks. I don’t like it any more than the next person but you can still play a condi/hybrid build. I have, takes a couple seconds longer to down someone without having stupid high confusion stacks on them but dead is dead.

 

Did they nerf alacrity? Yup, and from s PvE perspective it was initially bad but I’m seeing were people are still having perma alacrity so I guess not to bad after all? From my experience with it in WvW roaming I have more now that before because I scales with boon duration.

 

Did they change phantasms? Yup, and for the better. They still have some work to do as far and damage vs cd’s but after 5 or so years we don’t have to worry about overwriting our illusions. This to me is the biggest QoL improvement we’ve seen since Illusionary Persona was made baseline.

 

There are some valid complaints about this patch, mainly the confusion nerf, and everyone is entitled to their opinion but the vast majority of people are happy with the illusion change. I’ve already adjusted my build and it works just as well, if not better, now than before the patch.

[Zintrothen.1056]

"...narrowed down the builds to only shatter." That's because it's the profession mechanic. I'm sure eles would have more build diversity if they could make builds that camped one attunement, but that wouldn't be using the profession mechanic. All builds should requiring making them strong, or else the profession loses the flavour of their mechanic.

[Jace al Thor.6745]

> @"Zintrothen.1056" said:

> "...narrowed down the builds to only shatter." That's because it's the profession mechanic. I'm sure eles would have more build diversity if they could make builds that camped one attunement, but that wouldn't be using the profession mechanic. All builds should requiring making them strong, or else the profession loses the flavour of their mechanic.

 

And that was why Anet removed clone death traits along with other skills to promote shattering. They took a step back from that with Mirage, but mirage forces you to chose shatter for condi damage or spec IH and use clone ambushes for damage. And since clones are so squishy especially with the amount of AoE that’s been introduced I think it’s a decent trade off but still conflicts with their stated purpose.

[MailMail.6534]

> @"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:

> > @"MailMail.6534" said:

> > > The only thing clunky about phantasms currently is how long you have to wait for them to do their rotation, especially if using chrono because the spawn-attack-spawn-attack-clone seems to take forever.

> > This problem is solved if you take Phantasmal Haste. I have no problem on Chrono in this regard. Now that these phantasms are significantly buffed, I understand the rationale behind giving them long cast times.

> >

> > > Not to mention that no Mesmer skill/trait pairs well with healing power, our “sustain” builds don’t really exist. Sure, a Chrono running inspiration has sustain but it’s through shatter spam and restorative illusions

> > I recommend you test Alls Well That Ends well. I tried a "bunker" build using Mender's. The healing was actually pretty crazy high.

>

> You shouldnt need moree traits to make them so hey arent really slow, the damage is kinda low to begin with and no longer have access tot he cool down trait either so i defo think either damage needs to be imrpoved or they need to be quicker in spawning and doing their attacks without need ing additional traits.

>

>

 

I fundamentally disagree with your thinking that damage is kinda low. Also, I think if the base speed of attack were higher they would be deemed OP. There has to be some counter play to give an opportunity for them to be killed by an enemy. Maybe the disconnect here is that I'm a PvPer and you're talking about PvE? Maybe that's where the disconnect is? If so, I concede that I am not a good source of PvE balance knowledge. But in terms of PvP, I'm here to tell you that phantasms are great in PvP. Damage is not low. They are not too slow.

[ArmageddonAsh.6430]

> @"MailMail.6534" said:

> I fundamentally disagree with your thinking that damage is kinda low. Also, I think if the base speed of attack were higher they would be deemed OP. There has to be some counter play to give an opportunity for them to be killed by an enemy. Maybe the disconnect here is that I'm a PvPer and you're talking about PvE? Maybe that's where the disconnect is? If so, I concede that I am not a good source of PvE balance knowledge. But in terms of PvP, I'm here to tell you that phantasms are great in PvP. Damage is not low. They are not too slow.

 

As someone that does WvW, 99% of the time Roaming. The damage Vs cool down is defo not correctly balanced. They can be quite easily dodged and avoid most of the damage as well. Now im not saying that they need to do insane damage or anything. I would be fine with the damage if they reduced the cool downs a little bit but at the moment the damage is too low for how high the cool downs are, so either the damage needs to go up not huge amounts just a little bit or the cool downs go down.

 

[MailMail.6534]

Thank you @"ArmageddonAsh.6430"! That puts this argument into perspective for me.