Anet why are you so fixed on making power reaper a thing in Raids?

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Warcry.1596" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Warcry.1596" said:

> > > I play power in raid content, among other content like T4s and CMs. Am I not supposed to? :(

> >

> > compare your dps with that of others. I will agree that most pugs in fractals are horrible, very rarely was I not top dps in t4s pre **this** nerf to scourge. But if you aren't bottom of the dps in raids, then all I can say is that you're either the best of the best, pulling off golem levels of dps, or that you're playing with horrible people, most likely pugs. Or possibly both.

>

> I don't know how to compare my DPS to others. I don't even know how much I'm dealing, i just make sure I am always dealing damage whatever way I can. I don't pug anymore due to volatility of groups and how soon people give up.

>

> I just play what I enjoy as long as content is beatable. Like in PvP for example I personally can't win with power, so i use Condi.

 

More people should follow this example. You don't need to know how to compare you DPS to others to play necro in whatever content you want; that's the way the game is designed. This game was MADE for people like this.

[Jinn Galen.2468]

Is power (or condi) reaper dps truly low for raids? People keep comparing reaper dps with dps of other classes but how is it really when compared to what is actually needed to do the raid? I once read a post I think that did some math though not really sure about the accuracy but it said that in most raids, you only need 15k dps per player or so to complete it without hassle. If power/condi benchmark is at 29k, then that's almost double what is needed. All you need then are some guildmates who aren't running the raid to speedclear. This is assuming what I read was accurate. Anyone can confirm?

[Sephylon.4938]

That 29k assumes you can pull off the rs 5>4 combo inside the boss' hitbox while maintaining 100% of necessary boons. Gl doing that when every other class in your team is inadvertently sabotaging you by putting fields ontop of the boss that may or may not be moving depending on which boss it is and what strat your team is doing. On average expect anywhere from 12-15k depending on your luck. Possibly lower if all your whirl finishers end up as cleansing bolts.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Jinn Galen.2468" said:

> Is power (or condi) reaper dps truly low for raids? People keep comparing reaper dps with dps of other classes but how is it really when compared to what is actually needed to do the raid? I once read a post I think that did some math though not really sure about the accuracy but it said that in most raids, you only need 15k dps per player or so to complete it without hassle. If power/condi benchmark is at 29k, then that's almost double what is needed. All you need then are some guildmates who aren't running the raid to speedclear. This is assuming what I read was accurate. Anyone can confirm?

 

In fact it's slightly more complicated than that.

 

The benchmark give you what you can expect in optimal situation. In short, what you can pull when you don't have to cope with bosses mechanisms and in regard of bosses mechanisms every profession is equal and have to cope with them. Thus your dps in a fight is bound to be way lower than what the benchmark say.

 

Now, the second and probably most annoying thing is that while 15k dps in actual fight may be just what's needed to go througth the fight, there a quite some fights that make great use of higher dps since a higher dps allow your party to virtually skip very annoying bosses mechanisms. So what lead players to ask for top dps build is that they want to skip those mechanisms and thus increase greatly the raid's probability to be cleared.

 

GW2's PvE is a gamemode that ask the players to rely heavily on high dps. This has been the case since release and it's still the case. It just make the game way easier to go throught it with brut strenght instead of trying to do it the "regular" way.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:> More people should follow this example. You don't need to know how to compare you DPS to others to play necro in whatever content you want; that's the way the game is designed. This game was MADE for people like this.

 

Who are you to say how the game was made, designed or how people should play it for that matter. I'm so sick of you derailing thread after thread trying to force your opinions on "how everyone needs to play or understand the game" down everyone's throat. If you are tied into Anet "Anetbo" then you shouldn't be on here posting at all, that's all kinds of wrong. If you aren't associated with Anet then stop pretending you know how and why this class was made or how it should be played and leave people free to post their views without propagating your theoretical nonsense!

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Vlad Morbius.1759" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:> More people should follow this example. You don't need to know how to compare you DPS to others to play necro in whatever content you want; that's the way the game is designed. This game was MADE for people like this.

>

> Who are you to say how the game was made, designed or how people should play it for that matter. I'm so sick of you derailing thread after thread trying to force your opinions on "how everyone needs to play or understand the game" down everyone's throat. If you are tied into Anet "Anetbo" then you shouldn't be on here posting at all, that's all kinds of wrong. If you aren't associated with Anet then stop pretending you know how and why this class was made or how it should be played and leave people free to post their views without propagating your theoretical nonsense!

 

I'm just someone that pays attention to what Anet says and what they do ... if more people did, they would better understand the game and class changes as well. To be fair, you can play how you want ... and I'm not telling anyone to do any different and that's Anet's stated intent for the game. The irony here is that people that buy into the meta mentality are the ones who are saying how the game is to be played, not me ... think about that for a minute. I am saying that if you play the way the game is intended, you don't have to worry about what your DPS is, just like the posters experience demonstrates.

 

As for the topic of the thread; Anet doesn't care what you use in raids, they have no 'fixation' to make power reaper a 'raid thing'. Statements like that show a complete disregard for the game design and intent. Warcry's got it spot on ... play what you want.

[Sephylon.4938]

>As for the topic of the thread; Anet doesn't care what you use in raids, they have no 'fixation' to make power reaper a 'raid thing'. Statements like that show a complete disregard for the game design and intent. Warcry's got it spot on ... play what you want.

 

you don't play competitive games, do you?

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> >As for the topic of the thread; Anet doesn't care what you use in raids, they have no 'fixation' to make power reaper a 'raid thing'. Statements like that show a complete disregard for the game design and intent. Warcry's got it spot on ... play what you want.

>

> you don't play competitive games, do you?

 

So you're saying in competitive games, the Developers care what class you play? That makes no sense.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > >As for the topic of the thread; Anet doesn't care what you use in raids, they have no 'fixation' to make power reaper a 'raid thing'. Statements like that show a complete disregard for the game design and intent. Warcry's got it spot on ... play what you want.

> >

> > you don't play competitive games, do you?

>

> So you're saying in competitive games, the Developers care what class you play? That makes no sense.

 

This is reaching Cathy Newman/Jordan Peterson interview levels.

[Sephylon.4938]

Yes, a competetive games cares so little about what you play, that one of them decided to ban players that have mains

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> Yes, a competetive games cares so little about what you play, that one of them decided to ban players that have mains

 

OK ... I don't see the relevance ... I'm pretty sure Anet never banned anyone for playing a certain class in GW2 ... that makes no sense ... AGAIN

[Sephylon.4938]

Wasn't your point that devs of competitive games don't care about what players play?

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> Wasn't your point that devs of competitive games don't care about what players play?

 

II said nothing about competitive games so ... I don't even know what that means in the context of PVE.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> That 29k assumes you can pull off the rs 5>4 combo inside the boss' hitbox while maintaining 100% of necessary boons. Gl doing that when every other class in your team is inadvertently sabotaging you by putting fields ontop of the boss that may or may not be moving depending on which boss it is and what strat your team is doing. On average expect anywhere from 12-15k depending on your luck. Possibly lower if all your whirl finishers end up as cleansing bolts.

 

The 5>4 combo is not actually as hard to land as it's made out to be. This particularly true post-PoF when most eles play weaver rather than tempest so we don't have to deal with that ridiculously oversized air overload. Any dps loss from the fields can be made up in spades via ice bow and epidemic.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"shagwell.1349" said:

> > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > > @"vicious.5683" said:

> > > Sad part is Power Reaper is still trash tier in PVE.

> >

> > I'd happily take a power reaper that was trash in pvp and wvw but top tier in pve.

>

> Why not both. Many classes have three sometimes four builds in the different areas of the game. When I play my guard I have a power build for roaming that's great, I have a condition build that's great, I have two zerg builds that are great, I have two great pve builds, at least two pvp builds, etc. On Necro I have to be condi scourge.

>

> To be honest I always preferred playing GS power reaper and I hate the shade mechanic.

 

Exactly this. I made a poll. Which is the worst class in game right now. Consider gameplay and viable builds.

 

Most of the people vote rev. But he has like one of the best build diversity of all classes.

Great dps in raids. And pretty good in pvp/ wvw.

 

Necro has exactly 1 viable build. Trailblaizer/viper.

Oh dont say celestial is a thing. If you want to be a good scourge. Dont ever play celestial right now.

It does no dmg and no good barriers.

 

And playing full support scourge in raids was bad even before the patch. Now anet even nerfed his support abilities

[Jinn Galen.2468]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

>

> In fact it's slightly more complicated than that.

>

> The benchmark give you what you can expect in optimal situation. In short, what you can pull when you don't have to cope with bosses mechanisms and in regard of bosses mechanisms every profession is equal and have to cope with them. Thus your dps in a fight is bound to be way lower than what the benchmark say.

>

> Now, the second and probably most annoying thing is that while 15k dps in actual fight may be just what's needed to go througth the fight, there a quite some fights that make great use of higher dps since a higher dps allow your party to virtually skip very annoying bosses mechanisms. So what lead players to ask for top dps build is that they want to skip those mechanisms and thus increase greatly the raid's probability to be cleared.

>

> GW2's PvE is a gamemode that ask the players to rely heavily on high dps. This has been the case since release and it's still the case. It just make the game way easier to go throught it with brut strenght instead of trying to do it the "regular" way.

 

Sounds like raids are the major part of the problem. I honestly don't think people should be able to skip raid mechanics because they have a ton of DPS. Survivability as well as DPS should both be needed... Necro would probably shine if that were to happen since the class has both in decent amounts. But I understand. Changing raids just to suit a class probably won't happen and there would possibly be an outcry were it to happen. I asked because I kinda agree with OP. I prefer to balance Reaper with regard to PvP and WvW... as long as it has enough _reliable_ DPS to do a raid comfortably.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Jinn Galen.2468" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> >

> > In fact it's slightly more complicated than that.

> >

> > The benchmark give you what you can expect in optimal situation. In short, what you can pull when you don't have to cope with bosses mechanisms and in regard of bosses mechanisms every profession is equal and have to cope with them. Thus your dps in a fight is bound to be way lower than what the benchmark say.

> >

> > Now, the second and probably most annoying thing is that while 15k dps in actual fight may be just what's needed to go througth the fight, there a quite some fights that make great use of higher dps since a higher dps allow your party to virtually skip very annoying bosses mechanisms. So what lead players to ask for top dps build is that they want to skip those mechanisms and thus increase greatly the raid's probability to be cleared.

> >

> > GW2's PvE is a gamemode that ask the players to rely heavily on high dps. This has been the case since release and it's still the case. It just make the game way easier to go throught it with brut strenght instead of trying to do it the "regular" way.

>

> Sounds like raids are the major part of the problem. I honestly don't think people should be able to skip raid mechanics because they have a ton of DPS. Survivability as well as DPS should both be needed... Necro would probably shine if that were to happen since the class has both in decent amounts. But I understand. Changing raids just to suit a class probably won't happen and there would possibly be an outcry were it to happen. I asked because I kinda agree with OP. I prefer to balance Reaper with regard to PvP and WvW... as long as it has enough _reliable_ DPS to do a raid comfortably.

 

Well dungeons are exactly the same dps wise, I'd say that only fractal is slightly different. However, it's not only the game in itself that want it like that, when people suggest different kind of encounter for PvE end game, these people are always facing a "no" from the playerbase. Years after years of raids with dps check tradition led to this situation. And in GW2 where there is no traditional trinity, where, defensive stat have little to no effect, it's ended up with players relying only on dps.

 

At the same time, let's be honest, if for whatever reason anet were to create encounter where survivability matter, other profession would end up using defensive builds for these encounters and, believe me, the necromancer wouldn't be top tier in this kind of encounter.

 

The issue is that the necromancer have to be balance with regard to PvP/WvW because it's tools are all effective there and ineffective in PvE. Ultimately, what the necromancer need is some variety in the tools that he have. The necromancer need tools that are crapy in PvP/WvW and good in PvE, like the elementalist have conjure weapons (for example), this can only benefit the game as a whole to avoid giving to much tools that are very effective in PvP/WvW to a single professions which struggle since launch to find a place in PvE for this very reason.

 

NB.: Anet slowly change the PvE game to suit more the necromancer, you wouldn't even start to believe how bad it was for a necromancer in the vanilla PvE game. Dungeons needed you to do everything that the necromancer was bad at: power damage, mobility, giving boons and above all dodge. Yes, dodge, shroud wasn't even close to be enough to survive in the dungeons in the vanilla game. You can't imagine how much of a relief it is for the necromancer to no longer have to use blast finisher, to be able to lay your dark fields without breaking the whole party gameplay, to no longer have to be able to move fast and more than anything to be able to just facetank hits because those hit deal damage in %age of your health.

[Jinn Galen.2468]

Ahhh. I didn't play early enough to see how it was with dungeons. In fact, I started playing at a time when dungeons were considered obsolete.

[nekretaal.6485]

I don't think power Reaper has ever been raid quality. It doesn't have enough damage or utility.

 

I would love to bring my power Reaper to raids.

[NekoNoKoi.9137]

> @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > Both this recent patch and the November patch both brought changes that where clearly intended to improve power reaper in PvE formats, with the side effect of destroying Reaper's sustain in PvP.

> I do PvP/WvW exclusively on Power Reaper since Hot Release and I can say that when you look at the big picture the spec became more viable.

>

> The last patch changed nothing for Power Reaper except the corrupt table but was still a huge buff because a lot of counter-specs were nerfed - esp. Scourge and Mirage. Warrior and Power/Shiro is a doable matchup now because you can switch your utilites from anti-condi to anti-power while still being capable of killing a Scourge. I would even say that at the moment there do not exist any hardcounters to Power Reaper. So much about 1v1...

>

> When we consider team scenarios Power Reaper performs great as long as you don't team up with low-fight-presence specs like Thief, LB-Ranger or Mesmer. You need someone right next to you for support - it does not matter if it is a Warrior, Revenant, Guardian, Engineer... as long as it's no Teef.

 

* warrior and power/shiro is a doable matchup

* still capable of killing a scourge

* do not exist any hardcounters to power reaper

 

boi

Can I have what you're smoking??

 

[Warcry.1596]

> @"nekretaal.6485" said:

> I don't think power Reaper has ever been raid quality. It doesn't have enough damage or utility.

>

> I would love to bring my power Reaper to raids.

 

So do it. As I stated above, I do. Why don't you?

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Warcry.1596" said:

> > @"nekretaal.6485" said:

> > I don't think power Reaper has ever been raid quality. It doesn't have enough damage or utility.

> >

> > I would love to bring my power Reaper to raids.

>

> So do it. As I stated above, I do. Why don't you?

 

Because people resent other people not pulling their weight. And bringing a subpar build is often a sign of a player wanting a free run.

[Obtena.7952]

The only people that resent other people not pulling their weight are meta-worshippers. It's all about who you choose to play with.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > Wasn't your point that devs of competitive games don't care about what players play?

>

> II said nothing about competitive games so ... I don't even know what that means in the context of PVE.

 

No, I did, as you post seems to say that devs shouldn't bring under performing specs in line with other specs with the excuse of "the spec is fun" and that "it's what the devs intended" with no regard for the effects it would have in an environment where one has to compete such as pvp/wvw and to some extent fractals and raids where every class is a dps class and the question becomes: why should we bring you over the other people? (All assuming equal skill on both ends) Additionally, you still haven't answered my original question: do you play competitive games; i.e games where you have to compete against other players, to fulfill an objective where there will be an indisputable team/player that won?

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> The only people that resent other people not pulling their weight are meta-worshippers. It's all about who you choose to play with.

 

Or, you know, the people who want to improve themselves and don't settle for mediocrity.

[Warcry.1596]

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > @"Warcry.1596" said:

> > > @"nekretaal.6485" said:

> > > I don't think power Reaper has ever been raid quality. It doesn't have enough damage or utility.

> > >

> > > I would love to bring my power Reaper to raids.

> >

> > So do it. As I stated above, I do. Why don't you?

>

> Because people resent other people not pulling their weight. And bringing a subpar build is often a sign of a player wanting a free run.

 

Well I definitely can't speak to that as I've never experienced such a thing before =/ usually I get compliments for doing well. Sorry you've had unfortunate experiences but generally mine have been extremely positive.

 

I never really knew people cared what was brought for builds. Aside from a healer of sorts and a tank.