Greatsword 2018

[Huskyboy.1053]

**This is a sPvP thread. Please refrain from commenting about WvW or PvE.**

 

One thing that's been consistent about Necro greatsword since its introduction: it's never been meta, ever, and all the metabattle builds featuring it get worse-than-average ratings. Here's why:

 

1. It is slower than everything. For example, its autoattack casting times are 3/4s 3/4s 1s. Compare that to necro dagger, which is incredibly fast with only slightly less damage and life force generation.

 

Melee weapons are supposed to be generally superior to ranged weapons because you can't do damage unless you stay close to your enemy! Here's what I'd suggest to make this more competitive for power builds:

 

1. Increase [Gravedigger](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Gravedigger "Gravedigger") radius to 230. This allows more cleave on point. OR (better suggestion) add a side-effect. As it is, Gravedigger gives me no life force, whereas the autoattack chain does. Gravedigger should have a non-damaging side effect like a snaring condition, blind, barrier, reduce recharge on other greatsword skills, something that makes me say "yeah this is better than my autoattack." Reducing shroud recharge would be fantastic but I know that's a pipe dream, too OP.

2. Reduce casting time on [Dusk Strike](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dusk_Strike "Dusk Strike"), [Fading Twilight](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fading_Twilight "Fading Twilight"), or both. [Chilling Scythe](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilling_Scythe "Chilling Scythe") is fine.

3. Change [Grasping Darkness](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Grasping_Darkness "Grasping Darkness") such that the pull hits everyone within 750 rather than just what the claws hit. The whole point of a multi-target pull like [into the Void](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Into_the_Void "Into the Void") is for it to hit multiple targets, yet Grasping Darkness is quite unwieldy and rarely hits more than one target. Additionally increasing the range to 900 would be nice but possibly OP.

4. Improve the [soul Eater](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soul_Eater "Soul Eater") trait. The health regen is nice but kind of irrelevant; when I'm ranged I can kite easily and avoid damage, therefore taking advantage of the regen. But greatsword is melee, the idea isn't to sustain, it's to burst. Health regen doesn't help me do that. The LF generation is helpful but too low, should be upped to 1% per second. That sounds high but since reaper's shroud drain was increased, we need higher LF generation to compensate.

 

**To sum it up**: Greatsword is deceptively close to being very viable. [Nightfall](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightfall "Nightfall") is a fantastic tool on-point and doesn't need any changes. Greatsword has most of the elements necessary to be useful, but due to its lack of defensive utility and overall slowness, falls short. All it needs is a little optimization and I think we will be seeing it quite often.

[kybraga.7103]

I like the idea of greatsword being slow on Reaper. It's a caster using a heavy weapon in a form of melee. I would say give the auto-chain dramatically more damage- but keep it slow and about the same functionality. Grasping Darkness could totally use small fixed so you can pull enemies against walls instead of going over them. That's all I have to say about that!

[EremiteAngel.9765]

I would like Gravedigger to give an evade frame too.

[Lahmia.2193]

One change that will help 2 of these points: Change Soul Eater so that it increases the attack speed of Greatsword by 15%.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"kybraga.7103" said:

> I like the idea of greatsword being slow on Reaper. It's a caster using a heavy weapon in a form of melee. I would say give the auto-chain dramatically more damage- but keep it slow and about the same functionality. Grasping Darkness could totally use small fixed so you can pull enemies against walls instead of going over them. That's all I have to say about that!

 

Looks at mesmer doing spins with GS while assaulting your eyes with laser beam autos and mirror blades at the speed of light while hitting for truck tons more on average with a instant push that almost always hits vs a pull that does 50% of the time .

 

Whats that about caster with a heavy weapon needs to be slow? :s

Sarcastic comparison lol

[kybraga.7103]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"kybraga.7103" said:

> > I like the idea of greatsword being slow on Reaper. It's a caster using a heavy weapon in a form of melee. I would say give the auto-chain dramatically more damage- but keep it slow and about the same functionality. Grasping Darkness could totally use small fixed so you can pull enemies against walls instead of going over them. That's all I have to say about that!

>

> Looks at mesmer doing spins with GS while assaulting your eyes with laser beam autos and mirror blades at the speed of light while hitting for truck tons more on average with a instant push that almost always hits vs a pull that does 50% of the time .

>

> Whats that about caster with a heavy weapon needs to be slow? :s

> Sarcastic comparison lol

 

If you wanna blind your target with bright lights, play Scourge. :tongue:

Mesmer is a ranged/semi-melee GS user. Therefore, I am offended by such comparison. :angry:

~~Humor.~~

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"kybraga.7103" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"kybraga.7103" said:

> > > I like the idea of greatsword being slow on Reaper. It's a caster using a heavy weapon in a form of melee. I would say give the auto-chain dramatically more damage- but keep it slow and about the same functionality. Grasping Darkness could totally use small fixed so you can pull enemies against walls instead of going over them. That's all I have to say about that!

> >

> > Looks at mesmer doing spins with GS while assaulting your eyes with laser beam autos and mirror blades at the speed of light while hitting for truck tons more on average with a instant push that almost always hits vs a pull that does 50% of the time .

> >

> > Whats that about caster with a heavy weapon needs to be slow? :s

> > Sarcastic comparison lol

>

> If you wanna blind your target with bright lights, play Scourge. :tongue:

> Mesmer is a ranged/semi-melee GS user. Therefore, I am offended by such comparison. :angry:

> ~~Humor.~~

 

xD

So being ranged with GS means its ok to be faster than some one who has to walk up and hit you xD and what do oyu mean semi gs user.

You are either a gs user or not there is no semi XD Like ima Semi GS necro I only use 1 skill on the whole weapon bar.. oh wait grave digger you right i guess we all semi GS users xD

[kybraga.7103]

I mean that GS Mesmer is a style that embodies both passive ranged play, and active melee play. Necromancer is all melee, very heavy weapon swinging versus blasting a hot pink beam. :P

[pah.4931]

The problem is NOT great sword. The problem is that Reaper was SUPPOSED to be a bruiser archetype but they don't have nearly enough defensive abilities and the November balance patch now forced them into a glass canon position. And they have no mobility or get-away mechanics.

 

p.s. GS can actually work well in conquest modes (and the skillshot grasp is awesome and fun to use, imo)

[Eclipse.6203]

Put back the original version of Soul Eater. Never understood why they changed it.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Eclipse.6203" said:

> Put back the original version of Soul Eater. Never understood why they changed it.

 

Beta or game release?

[Eclipse.6203]

The version that reduced GS CDs. Not sure what beta soul eater was like.

[Sarrs.4831]

What's the point of greatsword when you can just poke from safety with Axe and if you need to AoE spam, you can enter Shroud and drop 5 then 4?

[Crinn.7864]

Why are people wanting Soul Eater trait changed? The live version of Soul Eater is easily the most amazing weapon related trait in the game.

> @"Eclipse.6203" said:

> The version that reduced GS CDs. Not sure what beta soul eater was like.

 

The current live version of Soul Eater does reduce GS CDs.

[Eclipse.6203]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> The current live version of Soul Eater does reduce GS CDs.

 

I meant the ealier version that had lifesteal and reduced cooldowns on a gravedigger hit

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Eclipse.6203" said:

> > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > The current live version of Soul Eater does reduce GS CDs.

>

> I meant the ealier version that had lifesteal and reduced cooldowns on a gravedigger hit

 

Why? That version was so much worse than the current version. Under than version you would have to land 7 gravediggers in order to get equivalent cooldown reduction to what the live version of the trait does passively. Not to mention that the live version of Soul Eater has far more sustain value than the pathetic life steal the original version had.

[Huskyboy.1053]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Eclipse.6203" said:

> > > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > The current live version of Soul Eater does reduce GS CDs.

> >

> > I meant the ealier version that had lifesteal and reduced cooldowns on a gravedigger hit

>

> Why? That version was so much worse than the current version. Under than version you would have to land 7 gravediggers in order to get equivalent cooldown reduction to what the live version of the trait does passively. Not to mention that the live version of Soul Eater has far more sustain value than the pathetic life steal the original version had.

 

Crinn is correct, the current version of Soul Eater is better than the old one, objectively. Doesn't mean it couldn't be better though. Crinn do you have any other thoughts on my points? I'd like to know (from a sPvP perspective) what you think makes sense. A lot of people in this thread are talking about lore or visuals and that's just not relevant to what works in sPvP.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Eclipse.6203" said:

> > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > The current live version of Soul Eater does reduce GS CDs.

>

> I meant the ealier version that had lifesteal and reduced cooldowns on a gravedigger hit

 

That was the beta version. 55/49 life steal per hit, whilst using a gs (so all attacks), cooldowns 3% reduced per gravedigger hit.

 

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Eclipse.6203" said:

> > > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > The current live version of Soul Eater does reduce GS CDs.

> >

> > I meant the ealier version that had lifesteal and reduced cooldowns on a gravedigger hit

>

> Why? That version was so much worse than the current version. Under than version you would have to land 7 gravediggers in order to get equivalent cooldown reduction to what the live version of the trait does passively. Not to mention that the live version of Soul Eater has far more sustain value than the pathetic life steal the original version had.

 

You're only thinking of the healing. Life steal also deals damage. Also multiple hits on multiple targets per second scale the extra healing in the beta version favour. I prefer the more active healing of the beta version than the passive play of the current to be honest.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Huskyboy.1053" said:

> > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > @"Eclipse.6203" said:

> > > > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > > The current live version of Soul Eater does reduce GS CDs.

> > >

> > > I meant the ealier version that had lifesteal and reduced cooldowns on a gravedigger hit

> >

> > Why? That version was so much worse than the current version. Under than version you would have to land 7 gravediggers in order to get equivalent cooldown reduction to what the live version of the trait does passively. Not to mention that the live version of Soul Eater has far more sustain value than the pathetic life steal the original version had.

>

> Crinn is correct, the current version of Soul Eater is better than the old one, objectively. Doesn't mean it couldn't be better though. Crinn do you have any other thoughts on my points? I'd like to know (from a sPvP perspective) what you think makes sense. A lot of people in this thread are talking about lore or visuals and that's just not relevant to what works in sPvP.

 

I disagree with your stance that Soul Eater's passive healing being irrelevant. You see the value of the passive healing is that it is one of the few passive healing sources on necromancer that does not require actively hitting something. This is key since it means we can gain health (and life force) while kiting and LoS'ing, something that no other trait lets us do.

 

The wider issue of necromancer sustain is PvP stems from the fact that we are the only class in the game where the majority of our sustain mechanics require either actively hitting something or being actively hit by something. Any sustain trait that does not have those requirements is of extreme importance to us which is why I oppose any change to Soul Eater that interferes with it's current functionality.

 

As for Greatsword as a whole I only have three complaints of it:

1.) Gravedigger does not consistently pay off. I evaluate skills by comparing how potent they are to how difficult they are to pull off. Right now Gravedigger is only worth it's cast time if it critically hits, which is something that cannot be counted on. I would like to see Gravedigger modified to either be a "safer" cast or modified to always pay off via either a higher base damage or a native critical chance bonus.

2.) Nightfall's 2 second time gap between strikes. The above average strike ICD of nightfall often leads to circumstances where opponents can move through it without being punished. This is true to the point that in most cases the first tick of nightfall is the only strike that hits.

3.) Grasping Claws should not be considered a projectile. This should be self explanatory.

 

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> You're only thinking of the healing. Life steal also deals damage. Also multiple hits on multiple targets per second scale the extra healing in the beta version favour. I prefer the more active healing of the beta version than the passive play of the current to be honest.

 

We already have enough "active sustain" mechanics. All of our life force generation requires us to be able to actively hit something. All of our life leeches require us actively hitting something to heal us. We *need* mechanics that don't require actively hitting things. The biggest contributor to why warriors totally outstrip us in the sustain department is because their healing works even while they are being kited or LoS'ed.

 

[Toll Booth Willie.6723]

I don't use GS much but I have been more so last while and I'm starting to get the hang of it but the Grasping Claws being buggy really kind of turned me off some. Otherwise, i would say Crinn laid out how i feel about GS.

 

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Eclipse.6203" said:

> > > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > The current live version of Soul Eater does reduce GS CDs.

> >

> > I meant the ealier version that had lifesteal and reduced cooldowns on a gravedigger hit

>

> Why? That version was so much worse than the current version. Under than version you would have to land 7 gravediggers in order to get equivalent cooldown reduction to what the live version of the trait does passively. Not to mention that the live version of Soul Eater has far more sustain value than the pathetic life steal the original version had.

 

And still its the worst of all choices. Decimate defenses or chilling victoey is just so luch better.

 

I like the trait more, if it would reduce casttime of gs- attacks, stacking with attackspeed buff.

Not like reapers onslaught that doesnt stack.

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Huskyboy.1053" said:

> > > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > > @"Eclipse.6203" said:

> > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > > > The current live version of Soul Eater does reduce GS CDs.

> > > >

> > > > I meant the ealier version that had lifesteal and reduced cooldowns on a gravedigger hit

> > >

> > > Why? That version was so much worse than the current version. Under than version you would have to land 7 gravediggers in order to get equivalent cooldown reduction to what the live version of the trait does passively. Not to mention that the live version of Soul Eater has far more sustain value than the pathetic life steal the original version had.

> >

> > Crinn is correct, the current version of Soul Eater is better than the old one, objectively. Doesn't mean it couldn't be better though. Crinn do you have any other thoughts on my points? I'd like to know (from a sPvP perspective) what you think makes sense. A lot of people in this thread are talking about lore or visuals and that's just not relevant to what works in sPvP.

>

> I disagree with your stance that Soul Eater's passive healing being irrelevant. You see the value of the passive healing is that it is one of the few passive healing sources on necromancer that does not require actively hitting something. This is key since it means we can gain health (and life force) while kiting and LoS'ing, something that no other trait lets us do.

>

> The wider issue of necromancer sustain is PvP stems from the fact that we are the only class in the game where the majority of our sustain mechanics require either actively hitting something or being actively hit by something. Any sustain trait that does not have those requirements is of extreme importance to us which is why I oppose any change to Soul Eater that interferes with it's current functionality.

>

> As for Greatsword as a whole I only have three complaints of it:

> 1.) Gravedigger does not consistently pay off. I evaluate skills by comparing how potent they are to how difficult they are to pull off. Right now Gravedigger is only worth it's cast time if it critically hits, which is something that cannot be counted on. I would like to see Gravedigger modified to either be a "safer" cast or modified to always pay off via either a higher base damage or a native critical chance bonus.

> 2.) Nightfall's 2 second time gap between strikes. The above average strike ICD of nightfall often leads to circumstances where opponents can move through it without being punished. This is true to the point that in most cases the first tick of nightfall is the only strike that hits.

> 3.) Grasping Claws should not be considered a projectile. This should be self explanatory.

>

> > @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > You're only thinking of the healing. Life steal also deals damage. Also multiple hits on multiple targets per second scale the extra healing in the beta version favour. I prefer the more active healing of the beta version than the passive play of the current to be honest.

>

> We already have enough "active sustain" mechanics. All of our life force generation requires us to be able to actively hit something. All of our life leeches require us actively hitting something to heal us. We *need* mechanics that don't require actively hitting things. The biggest contributor to why warriors totally outstrip us in the sustain department is because their healing works even while they are being kited or LoS'ed.

>

 

The passive regen while holding gs isnt that much. You get like 200 healing/s thats like having regeneration on you . For that you dont need a gs.

+ how do you want to kite, if everyone has more mobility than you.

 

But yeah i agree with you. We need either more sustain or much more mobility.

Warrior can hit like a truck and run away like a jetplane. But still its much more tanky than necro, even though he also has more dmg.

Thats rlly not understandable.

 

But i guess, as soon as even power reaper gets stronger, pvp boys will cry again, and we get nerfed to ab even worse state.

 

Cause somehow, everyone hates necro.

The ones not playing necro, hate him for just being there. Just because they cant accept, that necro gets same dmg that other classes have.

 

And the ones playing him, for being so weak.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > @"Eclipse.6203" said:

> > > > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > > The current live version of Soul Eater does reduce GS CDs.

> > >

> > > I meant the ealier version that had lifesteal and reduced cooldowns on a gravedigger hit

> >

> > Why? That version was so much worse than the current version. Under than version you would have to land 7 gravediggers in order to get equivalent cooldown reduction to what the live version of the trait does passively. Not to mention that the live version of Soul Eater has far more sustain value than the pathetic life steal the original version had.

>

> And still its the worst of all choices. Decimate defenses or chilling victoey is just so luch better.

 

It's 200 hp/s on top of all other incremental healing you might have, which is really good. Also you're overlooking that it also gives 0.5% LF per second. 200 hp/s may not seem like much but it adds up. To put it in perspective just spending 10 seconds in greatsword with Soul Eater will net you 2k healing and 5% Life Force, which is really good for a passive.

 

If you are running Greatsword, you run Soul Eater. Nothing else in that tier can compete with it.

 

 

 

[Nimon.7840]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"Nimon.7840" said:

> > > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > > @"Eclipse.6203" said:

> > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > > > The current live version of Soul Eater does reduce GS CDs.

> > > >

> > > > I meant the ealier version that had lifesteal and reduced cooldowns on a gravedigger hit

> > >

> > > Why? That version was so much worse than the current version. Under than version you would have to land 7 gravediggers in order to get equivalent cooldown reduction to what the live version of the trait does passively. Not to mention that the live version of Soul Eater has far more sustain value than the pathetic life steal the original version had.

> >

> > And still its the worst of all choices. Decimate defenses or chilling victoey is just so luch better.

>

> It's 200 hp/s on top of all other incremental healing you might have, which is really good. Also you're overlooking that it also gives 0.5% LF per second. 200 hp/s may not seem like much but it adds up. To put it in perspective just spending 10 seconds in greatsword with Soul Eater will net you 2k healing and 5% Life Force, which is really good for a passive.

>

> If you are running Greatsword, you run Soul Eater. Nothing else in that tier can compete with it.

>

>

>

 

Tbh. Fights dont last long enough to make zse of that trait

AND

U dont want to spend too much time on gs, because its way too slow and doesnt have range.

 

Right now its more like: burst or get bursted

 

And against shit like that healing pet buff ranger, u wont stand a chance either cause their sustain is way better.

 

And in addition to wat. We only have very little access to regeneration.

 

And even if you try to make a tanky, regeneration bunker build. With chilling victory you get 5% lf per 10 seconds as well in addition to might.

And somehow, you want to kill your enemy right?

 

 

[Anchoku.8142]

With faster shroud decay limiting time within shroud, I would hope Reaper could regain some of its original chill duration.

 

p.s.

I would like it if Fear of Death was rolled into Reaper's Protection and a chill duration trait replaced it so SR's adept had Spectral Mastery, Vital Persistence, and a chill duration improvement trait.