Theory: Joko is trying to ascend by killing Kralkatorrik. The path of fire = flameseeker.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

Path of Fire emphasizes the Gods have left and then we begin learning of people who have contact with the Six.

* the former God, but not quite mortal, Balthazar who comes up with an Ascension plan and needs Joko's help.

* Joko, a Lich who lived in the Desolation before/during/after Abbadon's Nightfall, who Balthazar feels pressured to bound.

* Aurene/Kralkatorrik whom collectively absorb the last traces of Balthazar without leaking the excess like Kormir did.

* Tahlkora, an immobile corpse blessed by Kormir with telepathic powers that gives the locals weird dreams and begins using griffons to spread her consciousness throughout Elona.

* Desmina, the last Reaper of Grenth

 

We are also introduced to people with mysterious powers

* Sunspears in Elona discover if they meditate they can learn how break enchantments with weapons and wind, including those in the Awakened.

* Scourge, Elonina necromancers who "evolve" Joko's unique ability to begin spreading influence into the earth and commanding the sand.

* An Awakened in the First City is able to control other Awakened and uses some sort of Denial technique to disappear in an instant.

* We meet a group known as the Mordant Crescent. A Mordant is a substance, typically an inorganic oxide, that combines with a dye or stain and thereby fixes it in a material. A Crescent is an object that looks like this in shape. 

 

My theories.

* Balthazar used Joko to open the Mouth of Torment and lead him to the Domain of the Lost.

* Joko was freed by Kahyet and they traveled to Istan to Awaken her corpse and learn how to use the Scarab plague from traces of the Apocrypha.

* Daybreak refers to the events after Nightfall when malevolent lesser powers began trying to oppose the Ascension of a benevolent power.

* The Path of Fire is a play on words that refers to destruction, the flameseeker prophecies and all types of Ascension.

 

My guesses.

* Joko will try to use the Scarab Plague to kill Kralkatorrik/Aurene so he can Ascend and kill Kormir

* We will meet representatives of Lyssa, Melandru, Dwayna

* Joko will succeed in killing Kralkatorrik in the Crystal Desert and Ascends to Godhood.

* the Representatives of the Six, the hero, allies of the hero, and a group of Sunspears will somehow combine to destroy Joko.

* the expansion will end with Aurene in the Crystal Desert absorbing all of Joko's/Kralkatorrik magic and Ascending into an Elder Dragon.

* Kasmeer will cry about the Gods or something.

[Zoltar MacRoth.7146]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> * Kasmeer will cry about the Gods or something.

 

Never a truer word spoken, brother. Amen. And she'll probably hiccup too. Bleh.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

I must have been the only person who did not overlook the point in PoF where Kasmeer basically went "you know what, screw the gods, we don't need them anyways."

 

Lady Kasmeer Meade: But it's time we stand on our own. Tyria is ours to protect. I know that now.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth

 

Or when she, almost literally, said "fuck you Balthazar".

 

Lady Kasmeer Meade: Balthazar killed you—my commander. He killed Vlast and kidnapped Aurene. He would destroy my homeland in pursuit of revenge.

Lady Kasmeer Meade: Some gods just need to have their immortality revoked.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beast_of_War#Dialogue

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> I must have been the only person who did not overlook the point in PoF where Kasmeer basically went "you know what, screw the gods, we don't need them anyways."

>

> Lady Kasmeer Meade: But it's time we stand on our own. Tyria is ours to protect. I know that now.

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Facing_the_Truth

>

> Or when she, almost literally, said "kitten you Balthazar".

>

> Lady Kasmeer Meade: Balthazar killed you—my commander. He killed Vlast and kidnapped Aurene. He would destroy my homeland in pursuit of revenge.

> Lady Kasmeer Meade: Some gods just need to have their immortality revoked.

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Beast_of_War#Dialogue

 

I bet she wouldn't spit on Desmina. And its funny you bring the second quote up. While she is referencing Abbadon, the only immortal left on Tyria who calls themselves a God is Joko.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

She's not referencing Abaddon at all. She's talking about Balthazar the entire time. And Joko isn't an immortal nor an avatar nor whatever, despite your tinfoil hat theories.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> She's not referencing Abaddon at all. She's talking about Balthazar the entire time. And Joko isn't an immortal nor an avatar nor whatever, despite your tinfoil hat theories.

 

That's not how English works. The words "some" and "gods" are plural, if she was only referring to Balthazar she would say "a" and "God". And a lich is by definition immortal.

 

Either she is referencing at least one other immortal god that needed to be deposed, or you are making a statement about how well the writers of this game know English.

[Rognik.2579]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> That's not how English works. The words "some" and "gods" are plural, if she was only referring to Balthazar she would say "a" and "God". And a lich is by definition immortal.

> Either she is referencing at least one other immortal god that needed to be deposed, or you are making a statement about how well the writers of this game know English.

Actually, it is. You don't say "some god needs to have his immortality revoked." She is speaking a bit figuratively, but it's clear that she's talking about Balthazar, in the sense that not all the gods deserve their once-cherished position.

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > She's not referencing Abaddon at all. She's talking about Balthazar the entire time. And Joko isn't an immortal nor an avatar nor whatever, despite your tinfoil hat theories.

>

> That's not how English works. The words "some" and "gods" are plural, if she was only referring to Balthazar she would say "a" and "God". And a lich is by definition immortal.

>

> Either she is referencing at least one other immortal god that needed to be deposed, or you are making a statement about how well the writers of this game know English.

 

Technically, it is, as Rognik pointed out. When you have an unknown number, you utilize a plural form regardless of whether it is an actual or not. Similarly, when you're speaking in possibilities - which is what Kasmeer is doing there - then you utilize plural, not singular.

 

It *is* how English works.

 

A literal rephrasing of Kasmeer's line is:

 

"Balthazar and any potential and ultimately hypothetical beings similar to Balthazar do not deserve immortality."

 

She is **not** saying "Balthazar and do not desert immortality."

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@"Rognik.2579" @"Konig Des Todes.2086"

Both of your explanations are incorrect. "Gods" is a zero-sum limited set. It cannot be spoken of in generalities nor possibilities by a devout believer.

[Rognik.2579]

"Gods" is not a limited set, especially when the former leader of the Flame Legion called himself that once. It's like saying "some charr just don't know how to behave in polite company" when one messily eats all the hors d'oeuvres at a fancy Divinity's Reach party.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Rognik.2579" said:

> "Gods" is not a limited set, especially when the former leader of the Flame Legion called himself that once. It's like saying "some charr just don't know how to behave in polite company" when one messily eats all the hors d'oeuvres at a fancy Divinity's Reach party.

 

Kasmeer would not have considered him a god, nor was he an immortal. There are Six, and will always be Six.

 

So either Kasmeer is talking about a previous member of the Six or for some reason thinks one or more of the other five are going to be killed and replaced.

[Rognik.2579]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> Kasmeer would not have considered him a god, nor was he an immortal.

And why would she not have considered him a god? She was a very devout follower of the Six, and until about six months earlier, would have prayed to Balthazar as hard as she did to Lyssa or Dwayna. And even though he was kicked out of the pantheon, that doesn't stop people from considering him as such. Lots of people get stuck with a label based on their former associations. As for his immortality, we didn't know he wasn't until we put it to the test. There's also several different definitions people have used for immortality, but I won't bore you with those right now.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Rognik.2579" said:

> > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > Kasmeer would not have considered him a god, nor was he an immortal.

> And why would she not have considered him a god? She was a very devout follower of the Six, and until about six months earlier, would have prayed to Balthazar as hard as she did to Lyssa or Dwayna. And even though he was kicked out of the pantheon, that doesn't stop people from considering him as such. Lots of people get stuck with a label based on their former associations. As for his immortality, we didn't know he wasn't until we put it to the test. There's also several different definitions people have used for immortality, but I won't bore you with those right now.

 

I was referring to Gaheron Baelfire, whom was neither. Either way making this discussion about whether Kasmeer was directly referencing Abaddon is unnecessary. If you want to force the matter you can reduce the writers into using predicate logic and make some mean X>0 but that defeats the point of reading fiction.

 

I'd rather focus on the fact that Kasmeer was indirectly referencing many people through, as you also pointed out, the informal definitions of gods and immortality. Including the Lich God-King Joko.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Kasmeer is not so limited in her definition of god as to exclude gods outside of the Six Gods. However, that does not mean she was talking about a simple but powerful undead which shows zero signs of divinity, nor does that mean she was talking about a being long known to be well dead.

 

Her phrasing is common vernacular. I'm just going to have to assume you're a) trolling or b) a non-native English speaker at this point. It's not uncommon phrasing, and not hard to understand.

[Sombra.3246]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> Path of Fire emphasizes the Gods have left and then we begin learning of people who have contact with the Six.

> * the former God, but not quite mortal, Balthazar who comes up with an Ascension plan and needs Joko's help.

> * Joko, a Lich who lived in the Desolation before/during/after Abbadon's Nightfall, who Balthazar feels pressured to bound.

> * Aurene/Kralkatorrik whom collectively absorb the last traces of Balthazar without leaking the excess like Kormir did.

> * Tahlkora, an immobile corpse blessed by Kormir with telepathic powers that gives the locals weird dreams and begins using griffons to spread her consciousness throughout Elona.

> * Desmina, the last Reaper of Grenth

>

> We are also introduced to people with mysterious powers

> * Sunspears in Elona discover if they meditate they can learn how break enchantments with weapons and wind, including those in the Awakened.

> * Scourge, Elonina necromancers who "evolve" Joko's unique ability to begin spreading influence into the earth and commanding the sand.

> * An Awakened in the First City is able to control other Awakened and uses some sort of Denial technique to disappear in an instant.

> * We meet a group known as the Mordant Crescent. A Mordant is a substance, typically an inorganic oxide, that combines with a dye or stain and thereby fixes it in a material. A Crescent is an object that looks like this in shape. 

>

> My theories.

> * Balthazar used Joko to open the Mouth of Torment and lead him to the Domain of the Lost.

> * Joko was freed by Kahyet and they traveled to Istan to Awaken her corpse and learn how to use the Scarab plague from traces of the Apocrypha.

> * Daybreak refers to the events after Nightfall when malevolent lesser powers began trying to oppose the Ascension of a benevolent power.

> * The Path of Fire is a play on words that refers to destruction, the flameseeker prophecies and all types of Ascension.

>

> My guesses.

> * Joko will try to use the Scarab Plague to kill Kralkatorrik/Aurene so he can Ascend and kill Kormir

> * We will meet representatives of Lyssa, Melandru, Dwayna

> * Joko will succeed in killing Kralkatorrik in the Crystal Desert and Ascends to Godhood.

> * the Representatives of the Six, the hero, allies of the hero, and a group of Sunspears will somehow combine to destroy Joko.

> * the expansion will end with Aurene in the Crystal Desert absorbing all of Joko's/Kralkatorrik magic and Ascending into an Elder Dragon.

> * Kasmeer will cry about the Gods or something.

 

Preach Brother preach.

My guess is that Joko is actually possessed by Abaddon and he is a puppet and part of his master plan to come back and take revenge on the six gods that betrayed him.

[Madara.7435]

Actually Palawa Joko is Baron Dark from Skeleton Warriors. Obviously.

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

> @"Madara.7435" said:

> Actually Palawa Joko is Baron Dark from Skeleton Warriors. Obviously.

 

Actually, Joko is Einhorn. Einhorn is Finkle. Finkle is Einhorn. Einhorn is a man!

 

Oh my God! D:

[Yereton.8647]

*Stuffs popcorn into mouth, watching the exchange.*

[Digit.1823]

Dis some good stuff yo, keep going bruhs.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Yereton.8647" said:

> *Stuffs popcorn into mouth, watching the exchange.*

 

Naming and shaming are not permitted. Nor do I want to derail this thread. So I will use do neither. Instead, I will say that after reading talk pages:

 

"some users of official wikis deserve to be banned." Who am I directly referring to?

 

How many people could I possibly have been thinking about when I made such a statement.

[Yereton.8647]

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Yereton.8647" said:

> > *Stuffs popcorn into mouth, watching the exchange.*

>

> Naming and shaming are not permitted. Nor do I want to derail this thread. So I will use do neither. Instead, I will say that after reading talk pages:

>

> "some users of official wikis deserve to be banned." Who am I directly referring to?

>

> How many people could I possibly have been thinking about when I made such a statement.

 

Mate, I actually have no idea what you are talking about; I made a light-hearted comment. Not sure if that is ban worthy in any respect, especially on the official wiki(?). So I sincerely hope you are not referring to me.

 

Since I am sure I am not the target of this jibe, I will leave this little nugget: the forums is not the place to judge anyone's character, or dredge up some 'talk pages' to undermine one's credence. It matters little if you name (or not) when you shame. Just my two pence.

 

But I agree. Let us not derail this too much.

 

But as for the current point of discussion: Kormir was clearly referring to Balthazar. It is similar to the following scenario: 'You are at a restaurant. At the table neighboring yours, another guest is eating with their mouth open, with terrible chewing noises. Then you say loudly "Some people have no table manners."'

 

Are you referring to any or all of the other patrons at that establishment? Or are you referring to the guest with bad table manners? You are clearly talking about the latter. That's how I see it. But as you quite rightly said, ANet's word is law on Tyria. It is merely up to us to interpret things as we see fit, and try to make sense of the more obscure parts of the lore.

 

Edit: Formatting

[Scott McGough.6897]

I didn’t write the line in question, but as the Narrative Lead I was involved in every aspect of its generation and inclusion in the game—the initial draft, repeated reviews, and its final journey through the Editorial and Loc departments before being shipped with Path of Fire.

 

And thus I can say with 100% certainty that Kasmeer’s line “Some gods just need to have their immortality revoked,” refers exclusively and solely to Balthazar. Not Abbadon, nor anyone else: just Balthazar. She is using a general, broad statement about a class of beings to refer to Balthazar alone in a wry, understated manner.

 

Functionally, she is saying, “As a rule, any gods like Balthazar, who abandon humanity, lay waste to a region, murder thousands of innocent civilians in the name of personal pride, and do the things I just listed in the previous line (killed Vlast, kidnapped Aurene, and threaten the entire world) deserve to have their immortality revoked.”

 

The wry part is that there are no other gods who fit that description, so when she makes the general statement about “some gods” she in fact does mean and can only mean Balthazar.

 

[Yereton.8647]

> @"Scott McGough.6897" said:

> I didn’t write the line in question, but as the Narrative Lead I was involved in every aspect of its generation and inclusion in the game—the initial draft, repeated reviews, and its final journey through the Editorial and Loc departments before being shipped with Path of Fire.

>

> And thus I can say with 100% certainty that Kasmeer’s line “Some gods just need to have their immortality revoked,” refers exclusively and solely to Balthazar. Not Abbadon, nor anyone else: just Balthazar. She is using a general, broad statement about a class of beings to refer to Balthazar alone in a wry, understated manner.

>

> Functionally, she is saying, “As a rule, any gods like Balthazar, who abandon humanity, lay waste to a region, murder thousands of innocent civilians in the name of personal pride, and do the things I just listed in the previous line (killed Vlast, kidnapped Aurene, and threaten the entire world) deserve to have their immortality revoked.”

>

> The wry part is that there are no other gods who fit that description, so when she makes the general statement about “some gods” she in fact does mean and can only mean Balthazar.

>

 

Thanks for clearing up this up!

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

thanks Scott, this is just how I understood that line. I would be very confused if it would have meant something else.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

> @"Scott McGough.6897" said:

> I didn’t write the line in question, but as the Narrative Lead I was involved in every aspect of its generation and inclusion in the game—the initial draft, repeated reviews, and its final journey through the Editorial and Loc departments before being shipped with Path of Fire.

>

> And thus I can say with 100% certainty that Kasmeer’s line “Some gods just need to have their immortality revoked,” refers exclusively and solely to Balthazar. Not Abbadon, nor anyone else: just Balthazar. She is using a general, broad statement about a class of beings to refer to Balthazar alone in a wry, understated manner.

>

> Functionally, she is saying, “As a rule, any gods like Balthazar, who abandon humanity, lay waste to a region, murder thousands of innocent civilians in the name of personal pride, and do the things I just listed in the previous line (killed Vlast, kidnapped Aurene, and threaten the entire world) deserve to have their immortality revoked.”

>

> The wry part is that there are no other gods who fit that description, so when she makes the general statement about “some gods” she in fact does mean and can only mean Balthazar.

>

 

So has she lost all faith by this point in the story?

 

Making angry statements about an entire group to refer to one member is extremely frowned upon, at least in our reality. There are various laws and education programs to enforce/teach people to never do it, even when done in a wry manner. And in mythology, when that group was a pantheon, wry statements always got you killed.