Weakness

[Phineas Poe.3018]

> @"Silv.9207" said:

> especially if used in few suboptimal builds.

 

lolwut? _**Who are you people?**_

 

Hammer was a meta weapon on warrior in PvP and WvW **for over three years.** Hambow, Hammer/gs, and hammer/s+w builds collectively maintained relevancy in PvP and WvW longer than elite specializations have even been in the game. It pretty much carried the class all the way into Heart of Thorns. Where do you think the name "Hammertrain" came from?

 

Obviously it's not a meta profession **now**, but the point of my post was that weakness is not anything new. There have been numerous meta professions over the years that had more than reliable access to it, and it never once came up as a complaint. The elixir gun has been present in both PvP and WvW pretty much since 2012 -- and still is. When on earth have you ever heard of anyone crying about Tranquilizer Dart?

 

> @"Silv.9207" said:

> Why would I spend my time running around and hitting the enemy with my low damage AA if I can use better skills to support, debuff and damage? Your post don't make sense!

 

JFC dude, you don't mindlessly spam weakness. Engineers have, for years, swapped to the elixir gun situationally to mitigate crushing damage; when a necromancer jumped into shroud or when a warrior used rampage are two perfect examples of this.

[Phineas Poe.3018]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Additionally, you mention that other professions have to use sub-standard rotations to put out Weakness, but you neglect to mention that they instead get Protection or other defenses. Necro doesn't have good Protection access and has no negation methods for defense. Instead, they get Weakness.

 

You're mistakenly conflating class design with gameplay mechanics.

 

Necromancer's access to weakness is not a "negation method." It's a pure side-effect to being the premiere boon corruption class. The boon conversion table is pretty arbitrary and there's nothing stopping ArenaNet from changing might converting into something else. In fact, that's probably the easiest solution to this problem.

 

Necromancer doesn't have good access to protection **because it has a second life pool and high base HP.** It's the same reason why guardian, a class with heavy armor and the highest access to protection, also has low base HP. It's also the same reason why warrior, a class with high HP and high armor, also has very little access to protection.

 

These design decisions help keep all the professions balanced among each other while providing a diversity in gameplay "flavor." Necromancer having ample protection access makes about as much sense as giving thief ample access access to protection. It's a terrible idea and the class simply doesn't need it.

 

Weakness has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

More importantly: It's not "substandard" that a staff elementalist has to switch into earth to apply weakness or that a warrior has to switch from his greatsword to his hammer to apply weakness. That's called **balance.**

 

The problem is that necromancer seems to fundamentally skip that step in the equation, which is precisely what needs to change.

 

Either that, or people just need to live with the consequences of running builds that rely on might. We engineers have been putting up with it pretty much always. That didn't stop us from being a meta profession for nearly this game's entire existence. We just tend to run away from 1v1s with necromancers. Maybe people need to learn to do the same.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Necro has a minimum of a 10 second period where they don't have defense. This period does not exist for any other profession in the game. That is why they are so heavy on Weakness: otherwise, they haven't got a prayer of surviving those 10 seconds. "High base health" might buy you another second of life in this game.

 

So yes, Weakness has quite a bit to do with Necro's defense. I can tell you've never even touched the class yourself, though, as otherwise this would be clear as day to you.

[Phineas Poe.3018]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Necro has a minimum of a 10 second period where they don't have defense. This period does not exist for any other profession in the game. That is why they are so heavy on Weakness: otherwise, they haven't got a prayer of surviving those 10 seconds. "High base health" might buy you another second of life in this game.

 

Are you seriously arguing that because you have to put some foresight into when you put your death shroud on cooldown that your weakness application is justified?

 

Give me a break.

 

You can get free Spectral Armor at 50% HP. You have Spectral Walk. You have Plague Form, **which quadruples your base toughness and triples your base vitality.**

 

You have a scourge trait, Feed from Corruption, which literally lets you steal boons on corruption **with zero ICD.** Who cares if you can't generate protection by yourself? All you have to do is strip boons off an engineer all day and you get all the protection you'd ever want.

 

You are nuts if you think necromancer is in some kind of soft spot or needs help. As an engineer main you will not garner any of my sympathy. The respective strength between necromancer and engineer has never been more tilted in your favor.

 

And now people are crying for nerfs that would affect the one reliable defense we had against your class during this entire game's existence. Spamming Tranquilizer Dart against 25-might stacked death shroud necromancers is literally the only option for survival and winning 1v1s that we had for many years. They already took away our ability to double Toss Elixir X your death shrouds with Kinetic Battery.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Phineas Poe.3018" said:

>

> Are you seriously arguing that because you have to put some foresight into when you put your death shroud on cooldown that your weakness application is justified?

>

> Give me a break.

>

> You can get free Spectral Armor at 50% HP. You have Spectral Walk. You have Plague Form, **which quadruples your base toughness and triples your base vitality.**

>

> You have a scourge trait, Feed from Corruption, which literally lets you steal boons on corruption **with zero ICD.** Who cares if you can't generate protection by yourself? All you have to do is strip boons off an engineer all day and you get all the protection you'd ever want.

>

> You are nuts if you think necromancer is in some kind of soft spot or needs help. As an engineer main you will not garner any of my sympathy. The respective strength between necromancer and engineer has never been more tilted in your favor.

>

> And now people are crying for nerfs that would affect the one reliable defense we had against your class during this entire game's existence. Spamming Tranquilizer Dart against 25-might stacked death shroud necromancers is literally the only option for survival and winning 1v1s that we had for many years. They already took away our ability to double Toss Elixir X your death shrouds with Kinetic Battery.

 

 

Dude, Plague Form was removed from the game nearly a year ago. If you're going to make silly arguments, at least use something vaguely relevant.

 

Plus, 25 Might stacked Shroud Necro? That hasn't been a thing since early in HoT days.

 

And a condition being a reliable defense against a Necro? Don't make me laugh. That's never been the case.

 

Feed From Corruption is never run because it competes with Sand Savant. Shade uptime+ area is way more valuable than boons.

 

Honest question, when was the last time you logged in?

[Phineas Poe.3018]

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Dude, Plague Form was removed from the game nearly a year ago.

 

I was not actually aware of that, good to know. I stopped playing Guild Wars 2 around this time last year, and I haven't logged into my necromancer since returning to the game about a week or so ago.

 

Either way, my point still stands. Necro has plenty of options and defensive abilities to compensate for their lack of protection. If you lose to a boon generating class 1v1, which is who you should generally be facing, you are simply bad at the class. Necromancers are so hilariously tilted in favor of winning 1v1s against numerous classes in this game. Their only problem is getting blasted in early team fights before they can generate life force. Their lack of native protection access has never really been a factor in their popularity.

 

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Feed From Corruption is never run because it competes with Sand Savant. Shade uptime+ area is way more valuable than boons.

 

The point is that you have access to it. Especially now that engineers stack protection access into their builds for condition cleanses, if you choose not to utilize that opportunity, that's entirely your decision.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Phineas Poe.3018" said:

 

> Either way, my point still stands. Necro has plenty of options and defensive abilities to compensate for their lack of protection

You listed two skills that require getting hit to generate life force (yeah, that's great defense...not) and a skill that is literally not in the game anymore. Pretty sure nobody calls that "plenty of options and defensive abilities."

 

Again, because Necro does NOT get much Protection access, they get Weakness instead. Comparable in effect, more on-theme, and helps them survive the minimum 10 second between Shroud use.

 

Do yourself a favor: if you're relying on severely outdated information (and yes, year-old information is "severely outdated" in online gaming), don't try to argue balance.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Phineas Poe.3018" said:

 

> Necromancer doesn't have good access to protection **because it has a second life pool and high base HP.** It's the same reason why guardian, a class with heavy armor and the highest access to protection, also has low base HP. It's also the same reason why warrior, a class with high HP and high armor, also has very little access to protection.

>

> These design decisions help keep all the professions balanced among each other while providing a diversity in gameplay "flavor." Necromancer having ample protection access makes about as much sense as giving thief ample access access to protection. It's a terrible idea and the class simply doesn't need it.

 

Just FYI since you've been gone for a year. Reaper's Shroud had it's base degeneration rate nerfed to 5% (it used to only have 2% degeneration) and the trait that reduced shroud cooldown was also nerfed.

 

Right now Reaper and Core necro have the worst defensive capabilities of any class in the game, even accounting for weakness. A warrior wearing berserker has significantly more sustain than Reaper/core necro wearing paladins.

 

[Phineas Poe.3018]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> A warrior wearing berserker has significantly more sustain than Reaper/core necro wearing paladins.

 

That would make sense, considering a warrior also generally has to put themselves in harm's way more frequently to deal damage. Most meta builds on warrior are built around melee weapons. Necromancers, instead, tend to run staff, scepter, or axe -- all of which can be used comfortably from 900 range. You can also cast your shades from a distance.

 

It would be really quite dumb if ranged builds had better sustain than melee builds.

 

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> Again, because Necro does NOT get much Protection access, they get Weakness instead.

 

Again, necro doesn't get very much protection not on the basis of having weakness; weakness is nothing exclusive to your class, and there are plenty of PvP builds that, over the years, never relied on the application of it. Weakening Shroud wasn't even in the game until 2015.

 

Necro doesn't get very much protection simply because they have the highest base HP pool and the death shroud class mechanic.

 

Now, to return to something Crinn said:

 

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> Right now Reaper and Core necro have the worst defensive capabilities of any class in the game

 

If this is actually true, then death/reaper shroud should be buffed.

 

Weakness has literally nothing to do with any of that.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Phineas Poe.3018" said:

> > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > A warrior wearing berserker has significantly more sustain than Reaper/core necro wearing paladins.

>

> That would make sense, considering a warrior also generally has to put themselves in harm's way more frequently to deal damage. Most meta builds on warrior are built around melee weapons. Necromancers, instead, tend to run staff, scepter, or axe -- all of which can be used comfortably from 900 range. You can also cast your shades from a distance.

 

Dang dude, you really are living in 2015.

 

Just FYI a class that cannot keep foes at range is not a ranged class.

 

 

[brannigan.9831]

Thats stretching it to say weakness is in lieu of protection for Necros. Weakness effects attacks against everyone not just necro. When I get weakness my attacks are weaker against everyone. Its too powerful to be a common condition. Five seconds is too much for a boon corrupt of might. 3 seconds or move it to a less common boon.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Phineas Poe.3018" said:

> > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > A warrior wearing berserker has significantly more sustain than Reaper/core necro wearing paladins.

>

> That would make sense, considering a warrior also generally has to put themselves in harm's way more frequently to deal damage. Most meta builds on warrior are built around melee weapons. Necromancers, instead, tend to run staff, scepter, or axe -- all of which can be used comfortably from 900 range. You can also cast your shades from a distance.

>

> It would be really quite dumb if ranged builds had better sustain than melee builds.

>

> > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> > Again, because Necro does NOT get much Protection access, they get Weakness instead.

>

> Again, necro doesn't get very much protection not on the basis of having weakness; weakness is nothing exclusive to your class, and there are plenty of PvP builds that, over the years, never relied on the application of it. Weakening Shroud wasn't even in the game until 2015.

>

> Necro doesn't get very much protection simply because they have the highest base HP pool and the death shroud class mechanic.

And Necro wasn't meta anywhere until that 2015 patch either. Now, that's not to say it was solely because of Weakening Shroud (although that WAS the biggest boost to PvP in that patch), as quite a lot changed that patch.

 

Warrior doesn't get much Protection because it has high armor, lots of blocks, evades, and immunities on top of having high health. Shroud does not and never has compared to that.

 

Again, Necro is the only profession in the game with a massive window of vulnerability. That 10 second period with absolutely no defense is unsurvivable (and if any other class had such a period,they would also get slaughtered). So, they get Weakness to help them tide over that period.

 

But thank you for completely confirming that you are stuck way in the past and haven't actually played Necro. Please get up to date on how the game actually is today before trying to discuss class balance and design.

 

> @"brannigan.9831" said:

> Thats stretching it to say weakness is in lieu of protection for Necros. Weakness effects attacks against everyone not just necro. When I get weakness my attacks are weaker against everyone. Its too powerful to be a common condition. Five seconds is too much for a boon corrupt of might. 3 seconds or move it to a less common boon.

 

Meanwhile, if anyone *else* attacks the Necro, they deal full damage. That's the inherent difference between buffing and debuffing: buffing helps you against everyone. Debuffing helps everyone else out only against your target.

[Phineas Poe.3018]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> Just FYI a class that cannot keep foes at range is not a ranged class.

 

Who called necromancer a ranged class? There is no tried and true "ranged class" in this game because everyone has the opportunity to build for both ranged or melee. Prior to Heart of Thorns, the only real profession that could probably be qualified as a "ranged class" was the engineer -- but we've obviously gotten beefier melee builds since in the holosmith and scrapper. What I said was that ranged builds shouldn't be as survivable as melee builds -- and for the most part they aren't. If any ranged build starts blowing people up before melee builds have the opportunity to catch them, they usually get nerfed into the ground. And if you're running both axe and staff, you're running a ranged build.

 

Your class is full of ranged abilities, like wells, and some of them do a metric shit ton of damage while also being unblockable. You were the premiere damage provider in WvW for years, and you did it running axe/warhorn. You sitting here trying to imply that your class is some kind of crippled orphan the second you drop out of death shroud is completely absurd.

 

Every single weapon your class has access to has some kind of crowd control or movement impairing condition. Both axe and scepter have cripple. Dagger has immobilize. Staff has BOTH chill and fear. The warhorn has a daze in Wail of Doom and Locust Swarm simultaneously cripples your enemies and gives you swiftness. You have tools available to you to stay out of trouble and regenerate your life force while waiting for that cooldown to finish.

 

And if those tools aren't satisfactory, and if you're not regenerating your life force effectively enough, then there are ways to bring those abilities in line with other professions so that they are once again satisfactory. Arguing that you need free access to weakness or more protection to remain viable is absurd. There are way better and more efficient solutions to such problems -- and a lot of it probably has to do with improving your own skill as a player.

 

> @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:

> And Necro wasn't meta anywhere until that 2015 patch either.

 

This has to be sarcasm.

 

Necromancer has been a bedrock profession in WvW for pretty much this game's entire existence, and necromancer catapulted into the meta in PvP the second the celestial amulet was first added to the game back in 2013. It was already a good class before that point, but boon generator builds became significantly more popular following the introduction of the celestial amulet, and necromancer rose to the challenge quite effectively.

 

Trying to argue that necromancer "wasn't meta anywhere" before the pre-HoT trait rework is pretty hilarious. I might still be stuck in 2015, but I'll be damned if you were even around playing this game back then to be making comments like that.

 

Reading that was almost as funny as the other guy saying that the elixir gun, warrior hammer, or ele staff are weapons "no one uses."

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Wooooow you are misinformed.

 

1. Yes, Necro was meta in WvW. Nowhere else.

 

2. Celestial Amulet was in the game at launch, but Necro still wasn't meta until Dhuumfire was introduced (same patch as Weakening Shroud). Then Dhuumfire was nerfed and nobody touched Necro until boon corruption got buffed. By this point, D/D ele had already been running rampant for a few months. Necro still wasn't meta at this point, but people occasionally played it. It wasn't until Signets of Suffering came into existence that Necro truly became meta because it could reliably kill D/D Celementalist instead of relying entirely on Corrupt Boon landing.

 

3. Nobody DOES use Elixir Gun or Warrior hammer right now. Ele staff does see play, but actually using Earth on Staff rarely happens.

 

I haven't taken a significant break from this game since early access. Learn your history, learn the modern game, and learn classes other than core Engie. Then you can talk.

[Rym.1469]

What could be done is changing Weakness slightly from 50% proc chance to every second attack being a glancing blow, but I'm not sure if it's possible.

 

Other than that, everything regarding the condition and necromancer has been said above. Weakness uptime is the result of increased uncontrollable might generation (blind uptime also sneaks in due to the same reason - fury applied by everything) and Necro's core strength being corruption.

 

High weakness uptime is somewhat necessary for Necro specifically and it hurts some power classes more than others. Revenant requiring more close melee uptime for dps without access to resistance or relying on quick in-out bursts suffers from it in particular. While Rev has access to trait that remedies the issue to some extent, it's in Retribution which nobody takes on Power Rev nowadays. I'm not sure if it'd be even a better tech choice in 1v1, due to uncontrollable stability which can get corrupted into fear by an accident.

[Wolfric.9380]

intresting is the idea to remove the endurance penalty from weakness (damage reduction is already strong) and give it to chill instead of the movement penalty.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

**Excuse me**, but isn't revenant the **only** profession with an actual anti-weakness trait? (check your retribution line).

Maybe it's time to forgo the yolo 3 dps lines in favour of having some more sustain and a countermesure to weakness..

 

[Ghos.1326]

to all those that say scourge doesn't have a defense to power damage: barrier. you're welcome.

[Lilyanna.9361]

> @"Ghos.1326" said:

> to all those that say scourge doesn't have a defense to power damage: barrier. you're welcome.

 

Watching a scourge tried to get bursted by a Holosmith and then the scourge presses two buttons for barrier and say: YOLO is fun.

 

Interactive gameplay, totally balanced.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"Lilyanna.9361" said:

> > @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > to all those that say scourge doesn't have a defense to power damage: barrier. you're welcome.

>

> Watching a scourge tried to get bursted by a Holosmith and then the scourge presses two buttons for barrier and say: YOLO is fun.

>

> Interactive gameplay, totally balanced.

 

^ this. Definitely this.

[Silv.9207]

Barriers are weaker than the old shroud, then the scourge have lesser defensive meatshield than before. Not a reasonable argue.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"Ghos.1326" said:

> to all those that say scourge doesn't have a defense to power damage: barrier. you're welcome.

 

Barrier and shrouds are some of the worst defensive mechanics in the game because they don't scale with the number of combatants or incoming attacks.

 

I believe necromancer is the only class in the game without a single weapon or utility skill that is a true block/evade/immunity/invulnerability. In execution they are far more effective than shroud or barrier will every be.

[Ghos.1326]

> @"Silv.9207" said:

> Barriers are weaker than the old shroud, then the scourge have lesser defensive meatshield than before. Not a reasonable argue.

 

You highly underestimate the power of a barrier. It's what literally brought scrapper back from being useless to actually viable now.

[Aza.2105]

I have no problems with weakness ever since they change the conversation table. I'd say its fair.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

> @"Ghos.1326" said:

> > @"Silv.9207" said:

> > Barriers are weaker than the old shroud, then the scourge have lesser defensive meatshield than before. Not a reasonable argue.

>

> You highly underestimate the power of a barrier. It's what literally brought scrapper back from being useless to actually viable now.

 

No, as the only defensive measure, they really do suck. When they're supplemental to other forms of defense, they're fantastic. Scrapper doesn't rely solely on Barrier to survive.

 

The main reason Scourge works out a bit better than Core Necro or Reaper in practice is that they don't have to blow all of their defense in one go. Total mitigation might be lower, but because there isn't a 10 second period with guaranteed no defense, it can be used more effectively. Well, that and superior pressure on-point.