DPS Meters and party toxicity...

[Jericento.3165]

DPS meters have created a highly toxic environment within the LFG system. Name calling, party kicks, and general rude behavior over not hitting a certain "benchmark" score are ALL behaviors that were, for the most part, considered anathema to the Guild Wars ideal. Now, this behavior is more the norm than the exception.

 

Look, I get it. The game needs to appeal to a wide demographic. However, people who don't chase meta builds shouldn't be treated like garbage and ignored because they're not all about end game. Yes, we can report... but, from what I've seen, little to no action is taken on those reports.

 

People are leaving the game because of this garbage. The game just isn't fun with so many people behaving the way they are.

 

The solution seems pretty dang simple to me: add a tier system to LFG. If someone wants meta build people ONLY, then they post to the meta build area. If it's more casual, a heading for that. If the group is open to beginners, then a heading for that, too. And add something where kicks and complaints actually receive action. If you're going to allow DPS meters and such, anyway, build one INTO the game and only those who meet a certain logged criteria can join a group.

[Hydroclasm.8572]

LFG has something similar to what you're asking for already, when you type out the group description. Join or create groups with "casual" or "all welcome" descriptors and you'll find like minded people to play with. My personal experience has been quite opposite to yours, with group drama being the exception rather than the norm.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

What I find annoying is that people don't broadcast if they're using meters or want maximum DPS or meta specs. They just expect it then get all aggro when that turns out to not be the case. If they would just put their intentions in the LFG it wouldn't be such a problem.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> What I find annoying is that people don't broadcast if they're using meters or want maximum DPS or meta specs. They just expect it then get all aggro when that turns out to not be the case. If they would just put their intentions in the LFG it wouldn't be such a problem.

 

Tbh, it entirely depends on the lfg, and for what content. Like if it states ‘exp’ or wanting certain professions. If it’s located under raids or t3-4 Fractals. One must assume those players, unless stated, want you to be running the best build for your profession or at least a close variant for the role you are filling. For example, lfg asks for a dps, you can’t join on your ptv elementalist and hope it’s ok.

 

Since we can write descriptions into lfgs, we don’t need more subheadings. If you want an ‘all welcome’ group, make your own lfg.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

DPS meters were a mistake but they are not going away. Anet realised they can't control these tools. People had been using them long before they became allowed. The only reason why DPS meters are allowed now is because it's easier to control players within established rules than keep denying them these tools but still not being able to track them.

 

The only way to respect players' privacy is to enforce the rule of sharing DPS numbers only when you agree to share them. The fact that Anet allows anyone and everyone who uses ArcDPS to see your numbers without your knowledge and consent is a huge hole within their policy. Unfortunately Anet refused any discussion about this matter.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > What I find annoying is that people don't broadcast if they're using meters or want maximum DPS or meta specs. They just expect it then get all aggro when that turns out to not be the case. If they would just put their intentions in the LFG it wouldn't be such a problem.

>

> Tbh, it entirely depends on the lfg, and for what content. Like if it states ‘exp’ or wanting certain professions. If it’s located under raids or t3-4 Fractals. One must assume those players, unless stated, want you to be running the best build for your profession or at least a close variant for the role you are filling. For example, lfg asks for a dps, you can’t join on your ptv elementalist and hope it’s ok.

>

> Since we can write descriptions into lfgs, we don’t need more subheadings. If you want an ‘all welcome’ group, make your own lfg.

 

No. I'm not talking about groups that demand a specific class or role. I'm talking about groups that don't make demands, until you're already inside.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> No. I'm not talking about groups that demand a specific class or role. I'm talking about groups that don't make demands, until you're already inside.

 

I, personally feel it comes under the ‘exp’ requirements most lfgs have tbh.

 

But, the funny thing is, if you feel like a group is too demanding, you have zero obligation to stay in the group.

 

[Umut.5471]

Even with full dps sets not all classes can perform the same. That causes class bullying in game.

Arenanet has to make DPS meters illegal or allow all classes/specs to have a balanced DPS output with the same set.

For example, all viper-wearing classes should have roughly the same DPS. If the playerbase just looks at DPS benchmarks, then

they should do PvE balance attempts considering those benchmark results.

[Mea.5491]

Allowing DPS meters was a huge mistake. It should be illegal, using it should be reportable and every elitist behavior should be reportable and discouraged by Anet. This is a video game, not a real life job where you have to live up to other people's expectations.

[zealex.9410]

Not sure how dps meters go against the "ideals" gw2 stands for.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Solution forbid dps meter ore interigate it too the game

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

> @"Mea.5491" said:

> Allowing DPS meters was a huge mistake. It should be illegal, using it should be reportable and every elitist behavior should be reportable and discouraged by Anet. This is a video game, not a real life job where you have to live up to other people's expectations.

 

Yes, okay. It is not. But people want to run through the content as fast as possible and preferably never wipe because of dps checks and other instance mechanics. People complaining about DPS metter tend to forget that it's not just their time they are wasting but everyone else's time and efforts. Do you know how infuriating and frustrating it is when you have very little time for game and still want to achieve something but then you get some guys you wipe with NaNNan times to find out in the end that they were running Trailblazer stats for necro? There is a reason DPS metters were invented.

 

Also, to be honest, all toxicity I've seen about dps metters so far came from people complaining about getting kicked for not providing enough dps.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:

> > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > Allowing DPS meters was a huge mistake. It should be illegal, using it should be reportable and every elitist behavior should be reportable and discouraged by Anet. This is a video game, not a real life job where you have to live up to other people's expectations.

>

> Yes, okay. It is not. But people want to run through the content as fast as possible and preferably never wipe because of dps checks and other instance mechanics. People complaining about DPS metter tend to forget that it's not just their time they are wasting but everyone else's time and efforts. Do you know how infuriating and frustrating it is when you have very little time for game and still want to achieve something but then you get some guys you wipe with NaNNan times to find out in the end that they were running Trailblazer stats for necro? There is a reason DPS metters were invented.

>

> Also, to be honest, all toxicity I've seen about dps metters so far came from people complain about getting kicked for not providing enough dps.

 

I am under the impression that people who really care about performance play with static groups. Those who expect optimal gameplay but play with pugs, are silly and not worth anyone's time to be taken seriously.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:

> > > @"Mea.5491" said:

> > > Allowing DPS meters was a huge mistake. It should be illegal, using it should be reportable and every elitist behavior should be reportable and discouraged by Anet. This is a video game, not a real life job where you have to live up to other people's expectations.

> >

> > Yes, okay. It is not. But people want to run through the content as fast as possible and preferably never wipe because of dps checks and other instance mechanics. People complaining about DPS metter tend to forget that it's not just their time they are wasting but everyone else's time and efforts. Do you know how infuriating and frustrating it is when you have very little time for game and still want to achieve something but then you get some guys you wipe with NaNNan times to find out in the end that they were running Trailblazer stats for necro? There is a reason DPS metters were invented.

> >

> > Also, to be honest, all toxicity I've seen about dps metters so far came from people complain about getting kicked for not providing enough dps.

>

> I am under the impression that people who really care about performance play with static groups. If someone claims to be performance oriented person and plays with pugs, is a very silly person.

 

I am aware there is such a thing as static group but you can hardly gather full raid group without 1-2 guys you've never seen before. There are always some pugs, even in fractals.

[Haleydawn.3764]

Efficiency shouldn’t be confused with optimal. It’s very fair for pugs to look for optimal builds for a run to be efficient.

[Faaris.8013]

After visiting and posting on these forums for a while now, I get why people are tired of these discussions and simply respond with "Create your own LFG."

 

This topic has been discussed since dps meters got accepted, and toxicity has been discussed long before that. So please use a search engine or the forum search and look it up, you'll find all pro and contra arguments.

 

And finally, if you don't like people monitoring your damage, create your own LFG with "all casuals accepted, chill run".

 

> @"Umut.5471" said:

> For example, all viper-wearing classes should have roughly the same DPS. If the playerbase just looks at DPS benchmarks, then

> they should do PvE balance attempts considering those benchmark results.

 

So we just scrap all skills except autoattack #1? Because that's basically what you are asking for, or have all skills do the same damage so that the order in which you use them doesn't matter.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Faaris.8013" said:

> After visiting and posting on these forums for a while now, I get why people are tired of these discussions and simply respond with "Create your own LFG."

>

> This topic has been discussed since dps meters got accepted, and toxicity has been discussed long before that. So please use a search engine or the forum search and look it up, you'll find all pro and contra arguments.

>

> And finally, if you don't like people monitoring your damage, create your own LFG with "all casuals accepted, chill run".

 

 

Absolutely. It gets tiring when a solution is obvious ‘create own lfg’.

 

 

I’m not defending KITTENS or their behaviour. But there is an option to filter them out just by creating your own lfg. Players are picky about how much damage a dps does, or that a support is actually supporting, because they want the dungeon/fractal to be done quickly. Or a raid boss down before it enrages. And that’s fine.

 

 

>@Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

>Also, to be honest, all toxicity I've seen about dps metters so far came from people complaining about getting kicked for not providing enough dps.

 

 

Absolutely. Most players running meters don’t expect you to hit the perfect benchmark score. They do expect you to do more damage than the support Druid though!

 

 

 

(repost because the kitten filter failed me and got me reported!)

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Faaris.8013" said:

> And finally, if you don't like people monitoring your damage, create your own LFG with "all casuals accepted, chill run".

 

What tools does anet offer to actually stop anyone seeing my dps in a group? Because LFG description doesn't provide such option making your suggestion useless.

[Faaris.8013]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > And finally, if you don't like people monitoring your damage, create your own LFG with "all casuals accepted, chill run".

>

> What tools does anet offer to actually stop anyone seeing my dps in a group? Because LFG description doesn't provide such option making your suggestion useless.

 

Ok, I'll reword it. If he doesn't like people monitoring and pointing out low dps, he should create his own LFG as casual and chilled run. If you have one player screaming about low dps, the other players who joined that run would probably kick him because it was clearly advertised as casual and chill run. Of course there is highjacking of groups, but I think we can ignore this rare thing here.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > > And finally, if you don't like people monitoring your damage, create your own LFG with "all casuals accepted, chill run".

> >

> > What tools does anet offer to actually stop anyone seeing my dps in a group? Because LFG description doesn't provide such option making your suggestion useless.

>

> Ok, I'll reword it. If he doesn't like people monitoring and pointing out low dps, he should create his own LFG as casual and chilled run. If you have one player screaming about low dps, the other players who joined that run would probably kick him because it was clearly advertised as casual and chill run. Of course there is highjacking of groups, but I think we can ignore this rare thing here.

 

Which means, at the end, players have no control over who and when watches them. Game doesn't provide any true way of playing with people you want to play with unless you play with full static group. That is literally segregating players and is especially unacceptable that Anet allows people using 3rd party, unsupported tool to be in advantage over regular customer that doesn't want to put their accounts on risk.

 

Solution is very simple - don't allow monitoring people with dps meters unless they agree to this within options of whatever 3rd party meter is allowed. Current policy is disrespectful towards players.

[Haleydawn.3764]

I think it’s fair having a way to see how people are performing in roles to be honest. I’ve seen some parties use the dps meter as a tool to prove that people/themselves are underperforming and then offer advices on improving. Sometimes it’s as simple as a rotation tighten/adjustment, other times it really is a dps in support/self-sustain stat gear.

 

Now back to the real topic at hand which basically boils down to ‘I want to play this way, but people with dps meters find out that I’m not doing as much damage as someone else playing the same profession with stats that actually fit the role’. Answer: create own ‘all welcome’ lfg. Then it won’t matter. If one group can segregate themselves to those that want to perform well in their chosen role, others can also segregate to allowing whatever they like. No brainer really.

[Mea.5491]

> @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:

> But people want to run through the content as fast as possible and preferably never wipe because of dps checks and other instance mechanics.

 

And that's a huge problem. I'm a veteran MMO player, I've been playing this genre since 2002. Back in my day we didn't "run through content as fast as possible". We took our time to socialize and experience things without guides and perfect builds. When we failed, we just respawned and tried it again, encouraging each other! No one started cursing and kicking people out of parties, no one needed DPS meters and best-in-slot gear! The problem with MMO players these days is exactly what you said: "run through the content as fast as possible". That totally isn't the point of video games but people tend to forget this and all they care about is rewards and virtual items. :c Maybe I'm just old and sentimental but I think the MMO community is disappointing these days.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> I think it’s fair having a way to see how people are performing in roles to be honest.

 

It's not because players have no way to know who watches them.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > I think it’s fair having a way to see how people are performing in roles to be honest.

>

> It's not because players have no way to know who watches them.

 

In all fairness, the player doesn’t own that data either. Some just choose to view it for improvement. I personally don’t run a meter, but I’ve not had anyone call me out for underperforming either.

[Faaris.8013]

> @"Mea.5491" said:

> > @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:

> > But people want to run through the content as fast as possible and preferably never wipe because of dps checks and other instance mechanics.

>

> And that's a huge problem. I'm a veteran MMO player, I've been playing this genre since 2002. Back in my day we didn't "run through content as fast as possible". We took our time to socialize and experience things without guides and perfect builds. When we failed, we just respawned and tried it again, encouraging each other! No one started cursing and kicking people out of parties, no one needed DPS meters and best-in-slot gear! The problem with MMO players these days is exactly what you said: "run through the content as fast as possible". That totally isn't the point of video games but people tend to forget this and all they care about is rewards and virtual items. :c Maybe I'm just old and sentimental but I think the MMO community is disappointing these days.

 

Maybe you have more time at hand as other players. Yesterday, I simply wanted to do fractal 99cm, which usually takes 15 to 20 minutes. I joined the group because there was a mesmer, and of course, we all expect the mesmer to be a chrono. Well, this one was a mirage, so we were 4 dps and a druid. The total dps was about the same we would have with 3 dps (warrior counts as dps) + chrono + druid. Individual damage was terrible without quickness and alacrity, but we were 4 dps now, so that wasn't the problem. The problem was cc, pulls and protection for the group, and low skill. MAMA was done after 3 wipes, and I left at Siax after 5 wipes and more than 30 minutes. The healer wasn't able to do his job at maximum potential because of the lack of alacrity, we all did little individual damage, and people were not able to adapt and got downed all the time. I said sorry and left the group simply because I never planned to spend an hour doing this fractal. I was planning for maximum 20 minutes, that's the free time I allocated to this activity.

 

My guess is that if you have 2 hours of playtime after work, you don't want to spend all the time doing your daily fractals. But in one point I agree with you, the community is disappointing. My first MMO Game was an indie game with a small community and constant communication with the team that developed the game. Of course the GW2 community cannot compare to that tribal culture. Anet has no succeeded yet in allowing people to build their own small communities that live and play next to each other and together. The guild system is rudimentary.