DPS Meters and party toxicity...

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > I think it’s fair having a way to see how people are performing in roles to be honest.

> >

> > It's not because players have no way to know who watches them.

>

> In all fairness, the player doesn’t own that data either. Some just choose to view it for improvement. I personally don’t run a meter, but I’ve not had anyone call me out for underperforming either.

 

But the data isn't provided by game client. You need 3rd party hack reading game memory to know it. It is allowed but it doesn't mean I should be expected to use it. This tool is not supported by arenanet. I have no obligation to respect its existence.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Jericento.3165" said:

> DPS meters have created a highly toxic environment within the LFG system. Name calling, party kicks, and general rude behavior

 

Don't forget kicking for low AP, not coming on a specific build or not knowing the mechanics/tactics. All of this didn't exist before dps meters, right?

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

> @"Mea.5491" said:

> > @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said:

> > But people want to run through the content as fast as possible and preferably never wipe because of dps checks and other instance mechanics.

>

> And that's a huge problem. I'm a veteran MMO player, I've been playing this genre since 2002. Back in my day we didn't "run through content as fast as possible". We took our time to socialize and experience things without guides and perfect builds. When we failed, we just respawned and tried it again, encouraging each other! No one started cursing and kicking people out of parties, no one needed DPS meters and best-in-slot gear! The problem with MMO players these days is exactly what you said: "run through the content as fast as possible". That totally isn't the point of video games but people tend to forget this and all they care about is rewards and virtual items. :c Maybe I'm just old and sentimental but I think the MMO community is disappointing these days.

Meh, you are probably right. My very first dungeon in GW2 was Ascalon. And when I decided to join my guild for dungeon run, they simply skipped most parts and never let me enjoy dungeon and story whatsoever. Totally ruined my dungeon experience in this game till I got experienced enough and simply soloed most of them for the story and aesthetics.

Sometimes I feel bad that I've never got to witness that careless MMO era.

 

[Faaris.8013]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> But the data isn't provided by game client. You need 3rd party hack reading game memory to know it. It is allowed but it doesn't mean I should be expected to use it. This tool is not supported by arenanet. I have no obligation to respect its existence.

 

We've been there already, the data is in the computer's memory, unencrypted. There is no hacking going on, you just need a tool that can read the memory. If you send a post card to your girl friend and her neighbor reads it because the mailman puts it on the box, you wouldn't say he hacked the mail system.

[Ayakaru.6583]

> @"Jericento.3165" said:

> DPS meters have created a highly toxic environment within the LFG system.

 

This is the flaw of the whole topic.

Toxic people use tools to justify their toxicity. I can assure you, those people were toxic before the dps-meters as well.

*cough *cough 5k AP, *cough full zerker * cough taking longer than 2 minutes *cough

 

DPS meters are tools, just like hammers and saws.

There'll always be that guy who bashes his neighbor with the hammer, does that mean carpenters perpetuate a toxic environment?

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > But the data isn't provided by game client. You need 3rd party hack reading game memory to know it. It is allowed but it doesn't mean I should be expected to use it. This tool is not supported by arenanet. I have no obligation to respect its existence.

>

> We've been there already, the data is in the computer's memory, unencrypted. There is no hacking going on, you just need a tool that can read the memory. If you send a post card to your girl friend and her neighbor reads it because the mailman puts it on the box, you wouldn't say he hacked the mail system.

 

The funcionality of reading this data is not provided to players by game client. Unless Anet provides their own, safe, built in dps meter, this argument doesn't work.

[Sabs.3962]

I recommend skipping to the ending of this comment as it's just alot of personal venting.

 

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This discussion is pretty much literally why I started GW2 in the first place. (GW2 player from the launch) Casual mmo with no worries in the world as to what you can play. In a way I think GW2 having been my first mmo was a mistake, but I like to think I've grown abit as a player of games like these aswell as having obtained a little more of a understanding on other MMO's aswell. (Played FFXIV and WoW umong other nexon f2p stuff) Albeit py perspective is one from the eyes of a person who first started GW2 over others.

 

To this day, it is unbelievably tiring to see behaviour even in fractals where if you fail a boss once, people fuck off. Ridiculous, but a fact of life is that self-important people are gonna be around us no matter how the devs design their game. Online games are like that. (I mean we as people could just... you know, not be dicks?) Raids weren't even supposed to have come to the game initially, thing is though. Almost everyone was happy about the addition to the game, as nothing within it provided good enough of an endgame loop.

 

I haven't even raided yet because I'm terrified of kill proofs, insights or other stupid shit people do to justify their assholery with (Listen to my jaded ass). I kinda just wish it wasn't a "performance" thing. Folks playing the most optimal-numbered dps spec and then clammering about how other people refuse to "improve" their gameplay. It really just sounds too dang cold to say that. Ffs, it'd sure be great to just enjoy the game as you like. (Yes I know you can play literally anything anywhere except maybe raids)

 

I can agree with OP hoping there was an LFG section which catered to non-meta mindset. But I'd actually rather suggest that maybe it'd be nice to have a section for players who wanna have their first raid impressions by themselves. "Blind lfg" or "hard way" - "LFG for those who want to learn it the hard way and don't care about dying more than 500 times to figure shit out." Rather than a youtube video? (Games shouldn't require databases to play)

 

That said, I'm not really so thoughtless that I'd try and force my way in to this content on my own rights asking to be carried. This content has been designed for people with a time investment to do so. It is hard. I just wish that it didn't become a wall for the community to surpass. I've seen people (including myself not too long ago) who still haven't even set foot in raids because they didn't realize that they can squad up without a commander tag... I'm airheaded ok.

 

It's content that's meant to be played for fucksakes, but there's all this jargon in lfg's that probable majority have no idea what it means, people acting way too busy if they can't just play without their excel spreadsheets and schedules open on a second screen, players who are too scared of the content and then accuse other players who do have the time and investment to actually play the raids.

 

Once again, comment of a nobody on the internet. But still, if there was anything I wanted to say with this vent... Maybe just break out my own can of worms about all these tideous unnecessary extra entry barriers that really annoy me. Meta and raids are going be hand in hand. You don't get around it, because people will always figure out what's the best type combo generally. Even if it was off of a dumb website or just by playing the game.

 

 

*******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

 

Tl;Dr - It's hard content that's meant to be played! Challenges are supposed to be surpassed. Can everyone (all sides of this discussion) just forget their bullshit and play the game together without being obnoxious about it?

[Faaris.8013]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > But the data isn't provided by game client. You need 3rd party hack reading game memory to know it. It is allowed but it doesn't mean I should be expected to use it. This tool is not supported by arenanet. I have no obligation to respect its existence.

> >

> > We've been there already, the data is in the computer's memory, unencrypted. There is no hacking going on, you just need a tool that can read the memory. If you send a post card to your girl friend and her neighbor reads it because the mailman puts it on the box, you wouldn't say he hacked the mail system.

>

> The funcionality of reading this data is not provided to players by game client. Unless Anet provides their own, safe, built in dps meter, this argument doesn't work.

 

I'm just saying there is no hacking going on. The client provides that data, the games UI just doesn't show it because Anet didn't implement that feature yet. It's the same with data the API provides. You cannot see ingame how much value in gold your material storage contains, but an external tool that is reading the data can. Anet even supports this, it's nothing strange to their policy.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

Only needed in high lvl fractals and raids, otherwise no one asks for it. And there it is needed and justified. I never encountered such stuff in other modes.

 

That said: a friend uses a dps meter and he showed me some stuff from casual (dungeon) content. There are players that literally do 10-20 times less damage than the rest. They are super casual "bearbows" who have no idea how the game works. I have no problem in the open world with that, but if you do group content then _at least_ read a guide and try to get more or less gear that fits your role...

 

If you are that lazy you just earned your flaming, sorry, but this is a game about group play and if you are an encumbrance for the rest of your party, you need to be called out. It's that simple.

[Hexyn.8462]

I'm not sure why this gets people so upset, the GW community is generally amazing and with the ability to join multiple guilds it gives you many ways to find like-minded guild members whom have the same outlook.

 

Just run fractals with friends whom don't mind carrying you through if you are playing subpar.

 

I do not condone poor behavior from pugs relating to individual performance during difficult content, however the incessant whinging from "victims" is almost as bad. There are ways to avoid that type of encounter, avoid them; otherwise it just feels like you are trying to generate drama for the sake of drama.

 

[Odinens.5920]

You know, even in all those other mmos that have dps meters that I've played, and USED them, I never acted like that. I just don't get how people act like that. I have never called anyone out in front of a group using an attitude. If there's an issue I'll ask privately, or just eventually tell the group "this doesn't look like it's gonna happen."

 

Why is it so hard for people to be decent human beings?

 

PS - I don't use a meter in this game. I feel no need to, and even recently told a guildie in WvW that it was pointless to use in there when he started announcing numbers after fights.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

Additionally, it really seems always the same people who complain about this: I never ever in 5'000 hours got flamed at be cause I play shitty. Sorry, but maybe, just maybe, it's their own fault?

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Jericento.3165" said:

> DPS meters have created a highly toxic environment within the LFG system. Name calling, party kicks, and general rude behavior over not hitting a certain "benchmark" score are ALL behaviors that were, for the most part, considered anathema to the Guild Wars ideal. Now, this behavior is more the norm than the exception.

 

Faulty premise.

 

Toxicity existed before meters and will exist after them. Same with every word you said that follows the premise.

If you happen to, for whatever reason run into a jerk, there's tools for that called reporting. Coming to bandwagon on the forum wont help you in this.

 

 

[vaxjani.9073]

Suggestion: get good. You can learn any class' rotation to an acceptable level in 30mins-1h (you can check gears and rotation for classes on SC website). After that practice a bit in real pve situations and you wont have to worry about dps meters anymore because of trash dps that you probably do now.

 

Also what others mentioned if you want to stay bad: create your own lfg with "chill, casual run" or "everyone welcome" and if someone complains about dps just kick.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Jericento.3165" said:

> DPS meters have created a highly toxic environment within the LFG system. Name calling, party kicks, and general rude behavior over not hitting a certain "benchmark" score are ALL behaviors that were, for the most part, considered anathema to the Guild Wars ideal. Now, this behavior is more the norm than the exception.

>

> Look, I get it. The game needs to appeal to a wide demographic. However, people who don't chase meta builds shouldn't be treated like garbage and ignored because they're not all about end game. Yes, we can report... but, from what I've seen, little to no action is taken on those reports.

>

> People are leaving the game because of this garbage. The game just isn't fun with so many people behaving the way they are.

>

> The solution seems pretty dang simple to me: add a tier system to LFG. If someone wants meta build people ONLY, then they post to the meta build area. If it's more casual, a heading for that. If the group is open to beginners, then a heading for that, too. And add something where kicks and complaints actually receive action. If you're going to allow DPS meters and such, anyway, build one INTO the game and only those who meet a certain logged criteria can join a group.

 

I use arcdps for personal improvement. I record videos of some of the things I do and then compare the damage breakdown to previous videos (usually following major patches). So obviously I would love to see a built-in damage meter with better features and more accurate information. 100% agree with that suggestion!

 

Perhaps it's because I'm a mostly solo player and don't participate in raids, but I've never encountered this issue myself. I hear it's widespread in raids, but I don't think damage meters are to blame for that. I used to be a raid leader in WoW, so I know what progression raiding requires. People who succeed in that type of content generally do so by practicing and improving their game. They do everything they can to improve their performance. When you put that kind of effort in, it can seem almost insulting when another player joins the raid with a "I do what I want!" open world build!

 

Not that the behavior is justified. I would never treat another player like that. But I doubt that dynamic would change significantly if damage meters weren't a thing. The friction between casual players and hardcore raiders runs deeper than damage numbers.

[Lunateric.3708]

I am one of those people that kick bad performance pugs but I have a "code":

 

* I put on my LFGs I want food, pots and competent players.

* if the person faked or didn't read anything on my LFG but we are halfway through I carry them until the end and then kick.

* if the person swears their non-meta build performs properly I let them **always** have a go (specially in fractal CMs). 99.9% of the time their performance is subpar but sometimes we see something we can adapt into our group. That's how we ended up using spellbreaker on both CMs back when PoF was released.

* I don't engage in any talking unless the pug thinks he's not doing anything wrong: I've been doing T4s for over a year and CMs for maybe over 6 months, **daily**, I keep tabs with new fractal strats and even like it when a pug teaches me a new one, I can tell when a person is just delusional.

[Sister Saxifrage.7361]

I use arcdps to keep an eye on my fractal PUGs. I like knowing how I'm doing, who I should be emulating if I want to improve... and yes, who's not pulling their weight. For reference, the real state of fractal DPS in PUGs goes like so:

 

Under 5k: Bad. First in line to be kicked if the group is struggling (but will usually be carried with wordless mild disgust if the group is doing fine). However, typical on trash unless you're a bursty power build.

 

5-10k: Fine. A group where all DPS is in this range will complete t4 dailies quickly and easily.

 

10-15k: Very good. Both condi and power can reach this range on bosses if they know what they're doing.

 

Above 15k: Amazing. Not usually sustainable throughout an entire fractal, just ideal conditions for a given build.

 

I only ever discuss meter readings (or even let the group know I'm running one) if A. someone asks how they're doing, or B. the group is repeatedly wiping and it's time to get ready to trim the fat.

 

I don't think it's toxic to hold people accountable for doing their share of work on a group project.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Faaris.8013" said:

> > > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > But the data isn't provided by game client. You need 3rd party hack reading game memory to know it. It is allowed but it doesn't mean I should be expected to use it. This tool is not supported by arenanet. I have no obligation to respect its existence.

> > >

> > > We've been there already, the data is in the computer's memory, unencrypted. There is no hacking going on, you just need a tool that can read the memory. If you send a post card to your girl friend and her neighbor reads it because the mailman puts it on the box, you wouldn't say he hacked the mail system.

> >

> > The funcionality of reading this data is not provided to players by game client. Unless Anet provides their own, safe, built in dps meter, this argument doesn't work.

>

> I'm just saying there is no hacking going on. The client provides that data, the games UI just doesn't show it because Anet didn't implement that feature yet. It's the same with data the API provides. You cannot see ingame how much value in gold your material storage contains, but an external tool that is reading the data can. Anet even supports this, it's nothing strange to their policy.

 

You can't access this data without reading game memory. This is not vanilla function, you need 3rd party dll to read it. It's literally a hack.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"zell.3051" said:

> Wouldn't a seperate LFG section for elitist pr!cks be an idea? That way, regular human beings can continue playing how GW2 intended it without having to deal with that nonsense ever again. Heck, you could even script the regular LFG tool to automatically disband your party/squad if you stubbornly continue to use regular LFG and use one of many carefully chosen elitist lingo!

 

They have seperate LFG in form of Raids but since their content is weekly gated, they are bleeding into lower tiers to disrupt fun of regular players.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"vaxjani.9073" said:

> Suggestion: get good. You can learn any class' rotation to an acceptable level in 30mins-1h (you can check gears and rotation for classes on SC website). After that practice a bit in real pve situations and you wont have to worry about dps meters anymore because of trash dps that you probably do now.

>

> Also what others mentioned if you want to stay bad: create your own lfg with "chill, casual run" or "everyone welcome" and if someone complains about dps just kick.

 

How can you prevent your LFG group from being hijacked? Game doesn't provide Party Leader functionality.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

 

Permission is given when you join or group up with others, Anet has stated this multiple times on multiple platforms. Little fun fact, Anet also considers all combat related data public group data that isn’t owned by anyone, again one last time permission is given when joining any group. And since Anet allows them as long as they adhere to Anets guidelines and standards they aren’t hacks, just saying.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

 

You can see it however you want, but no one need permissions to see combat data as its public.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

>

> Permission is given when you join or group up with others, Anet has stated this multiple times on multiple platforms. Little fun fact, Anet also considers all combat related data public group data that isn’t owned by anyone, again one last time permission is given when joining any group. And since Anet allows them as long as they adhere to Anets guidelines and standards they aren’t hacks, just saying.

 

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

>

> You can see it however you want, but no one need permissions to see combat data as its public.

 

Vanilla game client doesn't show you this data. You need 3rd party tool to see it. Unsupported tool. Deltaconnected or any other 3rd party dev isn't legally bound to legal documentation of GW2 and Anet and so players are not bound to acknowledge, respect or use such tools. The permission for these tools to monitor us should be asked every time we are joining party.

 

We can go back to this discussion once anet provides built in dps meters. At this point we are not obliged to accept the fact that unsupported, 3rd party tool can be watching us.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

> >

> > Permission is given when you join or group up with others, Anet has stated this multiple times on multiple platforms. Little fun fact, Anet also considers all combat related data public group data that isn’t owned by anyone, again one last time permission is given when joining any group. And since Anet allows them as long as they adhere to Anets guidelines and standards they aren’t hacks, just saying.

>

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > I see arc dps as a hack since it provides info on other players performance without permission

> >

> > You can see it however you want, but no one need permissions to see combat data as its public.

>

> Vanilla game client doesn't show you this data. You need 3rd party tool to see it. Unsupported tool. Deltaconnected or any other 3rd party dev isn't legally bound to legal documentation of GW2 and Anet and so players are not bound to acknowledge, respect or use such tools. The permission for these tools to monitor us should be asked every time we are joining party.

>

> We can go back to this discussion once anet provides built in dps meters. At this point we are not obliged to accept the fact that unsupported, 3rd party tool can be watching us.

 

Anet ( the creator and owner game, of every player’s account, and it’s data) states permission is granted whenever a player joins a party or a squad, they also said that combat damage is owned by the public and not anyone player. Their stance and their statements are all the facts needed on the situation they don’t need to provide anything other than they have, the Facts are Combat Meters aren’t hacks and they are allowed by the game developers as long as they meet their standards and criteria, and consent is given when joining or creating any group be it party or squad.