On difficulty modes (Game Maker's Toolkit)

[zealex.9410]

If everyone had a Ferrari then it wouldnt be a ferrari anymore. It would be your average car.

[zealex.9410]

Rewards and content go hand to hand u cant have one without the other. Thats basic logic.

 

Its like telling me u want to eat fish but you dont want to go catch it or go buy it from the store. The world and by extension mmos dont work like that.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> There's no such thing as "correct" value. The closest thing you can get is a statistical average, also known as market value.

 

My point is if the value of the item is propped up by artificial scarcity, then it deserves to be devalued. Like diamonds.

 

> Meh, that would just be boring and I would have quit the game long ago.

 

Then I would recommend you stick to hard mode, that seems more to your tastes, but your tastes aren't for everyone either.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> If everyone had a Ferrari then it wouldnt be a ferrari anymore. It would be your average car.

 

Would it though? Seriously? If *everyone* had a Ferrari, you would be driving around in a Nissan Sentra instead? Not also a Ferrari? See, to me, Ferraris have all sorts of interesting factors to them, beyond merely being rare and expensive. They have design work that, to me, are cooler looking than most, and the performance, I'm told, is quite respectable when compared to a Kia Soul. Even if everyone *could* have one, I don't expect that everyone *would,* they don't have the cargo and passenger capacity of a Forrester, or the fuel economy of a Leaf, but I imagine a lot of people would choose a Ferrari anyway, given the option.

 

>Rewards and content go hand to hand u cant have one without the other. Thats basic logic.

 

Not true. There's no reason that they couldn't have introduced any of the raid skins without ever adding raids to the game. If they had, they just would have been Black Lion skins, or rewards for Living World maps, or something like that instead.

 

>Its like telling me u want to eat fish but you dont want to go catch it or go buy it from the store. The world and by extension mmos dont work like that.

 

Again, no, it's like me saying "I like fish," and you telling me that the *only* way I get to eat fish is to kill, scale, and eat it myself, or to pay someone to take me out fishing, to guide me through the cooking process, etc. Instead, in the real world, there are any number of ways that I could get fish.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > There's no such thing as "correct" value. The closest thing you can get is a statistical average, also known as market value.

>

> My point is if the value of the item is propped up by artificial scarcity, then it deserves to be devalued. Like diamonds.

 

"Deserves"?! That's for the market to decide mate, not you.

Also, every scarcity here is artificial. It's a game. Every item in it can be generated at zero cost. Scarcity is **intentional**, and the intent is to **create value**.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Meh, that would just be boring and I would have quit the game long ago.

>

> Then I would recommend you stick to hard mode, that seems more to your tastes, but your tastes aren't for everyone either.

 

Sure, spend hours in lfg to find someone else willing to do more effort for the same rewards, sounds perfectly reasonable.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > There's no such thing as "correct" value. The closest thing you can get is a statistical average, also known as market value.

>

> My point is if the value of the item is propped up by artificial scarcity, then it deserves to be devalued. Like diamonds.

>

> > Meh, that would just be boring and I would have quit the game long ago.

>

> Then I would recommend you stick to hard mode, that seems more to your tastes, but your tastes aren't for everyone either.

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > If everyone had a Ferrari then it wouldnt be a ferrari anymore. It would be your average car.

>

> Would it though? Seriously? If *everyone* had a Ferrari, you would be driving around in a Nissan Sentra instead? Not also a Ferrari? See, to me, Ferraris have all sorts of interesting factors to them, beyond merely being rare and expensive. They have design work that, to me, are cooler looking than most, and the performance, I'm told, is quite respectable when compared to a Kia Soul. Even if everyone *could* have one, I don't expect that everyone *would,* they don't have the cargo and passenger capacity of a Forrester, or the fuel economy of a Leaf, but I imagine a lot of people would choose a Ferrari anyway, given the option.

>

> >Rewards and content go hand to hand u cant have one without the other. Thats basic logic.

>

> Not true. There's no reason that they couldn't have introduced any of the raid skins without ever adding raids to the game. If they had, they just would have been Black Lion skins, or rewards for Living World maps, or something like that instead.

>

> >Its like telling me u want to eat fish but you dont want to go catch it or go buy it from the store. The world and by extension mmos dont work like that.

>

> Again, no, it's like me saying "I like fish," and you telling me that the *only* way I get to eat fish is to kill, scale, and eat it myself, or to pay someone to take me out fishing, to guide me through the cooking process, etc. Instead, in the real world, there are any number of ways that I could get fish.

 

No im telling u either learn to do it yourself or u buy the product from someone else. No one told u to pay to be taught how to raid.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> "Deserves"?! That's for the market to decide mate, not you.

 

I'm talking from a game design standpoint. Obviously, if the developers create conditions A, B, and C, then the resulting sale price of an item (if it has one) will be the result of that. But in game design, they can *change* what A, B, and C are, and therefore the result. My point is that they should not create the design conditions that would create artificial scarcity, they should allow the quality of the item to speak for itself. The artificial scarcity benefits no one.

 

>Sure, spend hours in lfg to find someone else willing to do more effort for the same rewards, sounds perfectly reasonable.

 

Again though, you either aren't paying attention or you're misrepresenting my position. It would not be "more effort for the same rewards." It would be "more effort for *more* rewards, but relative to the increase in effort." If you enjoy the hard mode more, and do the hard mode, you would find your efforts *fairly* rewarded relative to the easy mode, you just wouldn't have *exclusive* access to anything in particular, and the people playing the easy mode would *also* be fairly rewarded for their efforts, as it would still be more difficult than a lot of the other content in the game, and would be rewarded accordingly.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> No im telling u either learn to do it yourself or u buy the product from someone else. No one told u to pay to be taught how to raid.

 

There's no option to buy the items directly. The nearest option would be to buy dozens of raid runs, and if I'm going to drag myself through dozens of raid runs, then I would actually like to participate and enjoy the experience, which is currently not available as an option either.

 

**What I am saying is that none of the existing options are sufficient.**

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > "Deserves"?! That's for the market to decide mate, not you.

>

> I'm talking from a game design standpoint. Obviously, if the developers create conditions A, B, and C, then the resulting sale price of an item (if it has one) will be the result of that. But in game design, they can *change* what A, B, and C are, and therefore the result. My point is that they should not create the design conditions that would create artificial scarcity, they should allow the quality of the item to speak for itself. The artificial scarcity benefits no one.

 

And like I said, any game is literally filled with artificial scarcity, and that's by design. Because that's how you motivate your players to keep playing. You give them goals.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> And like I said, any game is literally filled with artificial scarcity, and that's by design. Because that's how you motivate your players to keep playing. You give them goals.

 

And like I said, I am ADDING goals, not removing them. This would allow *more* people to realistically pursue *more* goals in the game. It would allow players who never intend to do hard mode raiding to start progressing toward getting various raid skins. It would allow people who raid and already have all the stuff they wan from the raids, to start chasing new rewards that get added to the raid tables. So for whatever value exists there, I'm only making suggestions that would make it *better,* not worse.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > And like I said, any game is literally filled with artificial scarcity, and that's by design. Because that's how you motivate your players to keep playing. You give them goals.

>

> And like I said, I am ADDING goals, not removing them. This would allow *more* people to realistically pursue *more* goals in the game. It would allow players who never intend to do hard mode raiding to start progressing toward getting various raid skins. It would allow people who raid and already have all the stuff they wan from the raids, to start chasing new rewards that get added to the raid tables. So for whatever value exists there, I'm only making suggestions that would make it *better,* not worse.

 

Nope, you aren't. People already have the means to do progression from easy to hard content and are already doing it. You're only suggesting instant gratification for people who lack the interest to do so, ruining the experience for the players targeted by this content.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > And like I said, any game is literally filled with artificial scarcity, and that's by design. Because that's how you motivate your players to keep playing. You give them goals.

> >

> > And like I said, I am ADDING goals, not removing them. This would allow *more* people to realistically pursue *more* goals in the game. It would allow players who never intend to do hard mode raiding to start progressing toward getting various raid skins. It would allow people who raid and already have all the stuff they wan from the raids, to start chasing new rewards that get added to the raid tables. So for whatever value exists there, I'm only making suggestions that would make it *better,* not worse.

>

> Nope, you aren't. People already have the means to do progression from easy to hard content and are already doing it. You're only suggesting instant gratification for people who lack the interest to do so, ruining the experience for the players targeted by this content.

 

That had nothing to do with anything I've been talking about. I don't even know where to begin trying to parse that for something relevant.

[Feanor.2358]

When you parse it, we can talk again. Until then, there's no point.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> If the raid told u "oh u can do this casually and get it in 5 months or do this much much much harder version and get the same thing in 3 months" u would choose to easier version because why would u make it harder for yourself for no greater payoff?

The fact that many players are overpaying for timegated mats just to get them faster shows that time _is_ often worth the greater effort/price for people.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Litterally no mmo does this. The highest tier of content gives the best gear in any game.

Because of inherent gear treadmill in those games. So, something GW2 intentionally doesn't have.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Games have been doing it for decades. Ill take the experience of hundreds of developers over someone in a forum thread telling me that the content is bad if giving its rewards elsewhere devalues it.

If you haven't noticed the MMOs now are very different from those decades ago. Hint: it's not because the old designs were so good. It's because (for many reasons) lot of those old concepts eventually turned out to be not so well thought out. Or because they were aimed at a completely different clientele.

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > If the raid told u "oh u can do this casually and get it in 5 months or do this much much much harder version and get the same thing in 3 months" u would choose to easier version because why would u make it harder for yourself for no greater payoff?

> The fact that many players are overpaying for timegated mats just to get them faster shows that time _is_ often worth the greater effort/price for people.

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Litterally no mmo does this. The highest tier of content gives the best gear in any game.

> Because of inherent gear treadmill in those games. So, something GW2 intentionally doesn't have.

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Games have been doing it for decades. Ill take the experience of hundreds of developers over someone in a forum thread telling me that the content is bad if giving its rewards elsewhere devalues it.

> If you haven't noticed the MMOs now are very different from those decades ago. Hint: it's not because the old designs were so good. It's because (for many reasons) lot of those old concepts eventually turned out to be not so well thought out. Or because they were aimed at a completely different clientele.

>

>

How much time thw content will take to complete depends on the ppl doing it. Saying co tent is bad or badly executed because some ppl dont have the time or the capabilities to do it at their own pace doesnt make it bad or unworthy of its goods.

 

Gw2 does have gear threadmills that doesnt mean that it doesnt have utility items and cosmetics tied to content based on various factors. Dificulty included.

 

Yes but the core concept has remained the same. The higher u go the better rewarded u are.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > "Deserves"?! That's for the market to decide mate, not you.

>

> I'm talking from a game design standpoint. Obviously, if the developers create conditions A, B, and C, then the resulting sale price of an item (if it has one) will be the result of that. But in game design, they can *change* what A, B, and C are, and therefore the result. My point is that they should not create the design conditions that would create artificial scarcity, they should allow the quality of the item to speak for itself. The artificial scarcity benefits no one.

>

> >Sure, spend hours in lfg to find someone else willing to do more effort for the same rewards, sounds perfectly reasonable.

>

> Again though, you either aren't paying attention or you're misrepresenting my position. It would not be "more effort for the same rewards." It would be "more effort for *more* rewards, but relative to the increase in effort." If you enjoy the hard mode more, and do the hard mode, you would find your efforts *fairly* rewarded relative to the easy mode, you just wouldn't have *exclusive* access to anything in particular, and the people playing the easy mode would *also* be fairly rewarded for their efforts, as it would still be more difficult than a lot of the other content in the game, and would be rewarded accordingly.

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > No im telling u either learn to do it yourself or u buy the product from someone else. No one told u to pay to be taught how to raid.

>

> There's no option to buy the items directly. The nearest option would be to buy dozens of raid runs, and if I'm going to drag myself through dozens of raid runs, then I would actually like to participate and enjoy the experience, which is currently not available as an option either.

>

> **What I am saying is that none of the existing options are sufficient.**

>

 

U arent dragging ur self anywhere u just jump in let them do their job and u are done. No effort is asked of you.

[thrag.9740]

@"Ohoni.6057"

 

It sounds to me like you would like all raid rewards to be sellable on the tp. I support that, I love free markets where I can sell my drops.

 

The truth is, if you don't like raids, easy mode isn't really making new content that you like, its just letting you grind out content you don't like. Buying and selling actually gives you options to play the content you enjoy.

[zealex.9410]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> @"Ohoni.6057"

>

> It sounds to me like you would like all raid rewards to be sellable on the tp. I support that, I love free markets where I can sell my drops.

>

> The truth is, if you don't like raids, easy mode isn't really making new content that you like, its just letting you grind out content you don't like. Buying and selling actually gives you options to play the content you enjoy.

 

Tbh selling some of this stuff would be pretty neat and would make raiding more worth.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> It sounds to me like you would like all raid rewards to be sellable on the tp. I support that, I love free markets where I can sell my drops.

 

While that would be better than the current system, that is still not a complete solution, because then the only way to get the rewards outside of raids is using gold, and it would just be another way for raiders to make money off of other players. Again, systems in which players exploit other players for gold should not be encouraged. It's more important to have ways for players to earn those rewards *from the game* without needing to participate in the current raid difficulty.

 

> The truth is, if you don't like raids, easy mode isn't really making new content that you like, its just letting you grind out content you don't like. Buying and selling actually gives you options to play the content you enjoy.

 

The reason I don't enjoy raids is because of the difficulty of them, the significant chance of failure, the hassle of building just the right party to tackle it. An easy mode raid would remove those problems, which would make it an enjoyable activity for me. I would certainly much prefer "grinding out" the easy mode raids required to earn the gear than I would "grinding out" the gold required to buy it off raiders second hand.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Tbh selling some of this stuff would be pretty neat and would make raiding more worth.

 

Again, raiding is ALREADY "too worth." It certainly doesn't need more incentives to do it. If people don't want to raid without being bribed into it, then they shouldn't be raiding in the first place.

[zealex.9410]

Ahh yes the market exploits me everyday when i go buy food. Such an evil unfair world.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Ahh yes the market exploits me everyday when i go buy food. Such an evil unfair world.

 

Nothing remotely related to anything I said.

 

Again.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > If the raid told u "oh u can do this casually and get it in 5 months or do this much much much harder version and get the same thing in 3 months" u would choose to easier version because why would u make it harder for yourself for no greater payoff?

> > The fact that many players are overpaying for timegated mats just to get them faster shows that time _is_ often worth the greater effort/price for people.

> >

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > Litterally no mmo does this. The highest tier of content gives the best gear in any game.

> > Because of inherent gear treadmill in those games. So, something GW2 intentionally doesn't have.

> >

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > Games have been doing it for decades. Ill take the experience of hundreds of developers over someone in a forum thread telling me that the content is bad if giving its rewards elsewhere devalues it.

> > If you haven't noticed the MMOs now are very different from those decades ago. Hint: it's not because the old designs were so good. It's because (for many reasons) lot of those old concepts eventually turned out to be not so well thought out. Or because they were aimed at a completely different clientele.

> >

> >

> How much time thw content will take to complete depends on the ppl doing it. Saying co tent is bad or badly executed because some ppl dont have the time or the capabilities to do it at their own pace doesnt make it bad or unworthy of its goods.

Are you sure you're responding to me? Because it has nothing to do with my point.

 

Let me spell it to you (so you won't be able to pretend again you didn't understand it)

 

My point here was that your first claim ("if you have two difficulty versions, people will always try to do the easier one even if it would take longer") is objectively untrue. Objectively, because we have already examples ingame that many people do not act like that at all.

 

>

> Gw2 does have gear threadmills that doesnt mean that it doesnt have utility items and cosmetics tied to content based on various factors. Dificulty included.

Primary reason why other games have the increasing gear tiers tied to increasing difficulty levels is completely missing in GW2 - the whole game concept of hamster wheel-style gear grind doesn't exist here. Yes, GW2 does have grind, and grind for gear, but it's for skins, not gear tiers. In fact, if you look at the other legendary gear, you realize very fast that what you claim _every_ MMO does is already something GW2 is not following at all.

 

>

> Yes but the core concept has remained the same. The higher u go the better rewarded u are.

Core concept of what? Because, again, in many ways GW2 is even now not acting like that. Same for other MMOs. You might have been closer to truth if you used "amount of effort" as a comparison, but it doesn't really work like that for just difficulty tiers. In fact, it never did work like that. You may have in mind some idealized version of how you want MMOs to work, but it was _never_ really true.

Also, again, things working one way for some time is not a sign they cannot be improved. The whole history of MMOs show that a lot of things once thought as the best design wre kept not because they really were that good, but because someone at some point did it that way and others just kept replicating it without much thought due to inertia. Until someone decided to question it and it got changed.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Ahh yes the market exploits me everyday when i go buy food. Such an evil unfair world.

>

> Nothing remotely related to anything I said.

>

> Again.

 

"then the only way to get the rewards outside of raids is using gold, and it would just be another way for raiders to make money off of other players. Again, systems in which players exploit other players for gold should not be encouraged."

 

Looks pretty related to me

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > If the raid told u "oh u can do this casually and get it in 5 months or do this much much much harder version and get the same thing in 3 months" u would choose to easier version because why would u make it harder for yourself for no greater payoff?

> > > The fact that many players are overpaying for timegated mats just to get them faster shows that time _is_ often worth the greater effort/price for people.

> > >

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > Litterally no mmo does this. The highest tier of content gives the best gear in any game.

> > > Because of inherent gear treadmill in those games. So, something GW2 intentionally doesn't have.

> > >

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > Games have been doing it for decades. Ill take the experience of hundreds of developers over someone in a forum thread telling me that the content is bad if giving its rewards elsewhere devalues it.

> > > If you haven't noticed the MMOs now are very different from those decades ago. Hint: it's not because the old designs were so good. It's because (for many reasons) lot of those old concepts eventually turned out to be not so well thought out. Or because they were aimed at a completely different clientele.

> > >

> > >

> > How much time thw content will take to complete depends on the ppl doing it. Saying co tent is bad or badly executed because some ppl dont have the time or the capabilities to do it at their own pace doesnt make it bad or unworthy of its goods.

> Are you sure you're responding to me? Because it has nothing to do with my point.

>

> Let me spell it to you (so you won't be able to pretend again you didn't understand it)

>

> My point here was that your first claim ("if you have two difficulty versions, people will always try to do the easier one even if it would take longer") is objectively untrue. Objectively, because we have already examples ingame that many people do not act like that at all.

>

 

Example?

 

> >

> > Gw2 does have gear threadmills that doesnt mean that it doesnt have utility items and cosmetics tied to content based on various factors. Dificulty included.

> Primary reason why other games have the increasing gear tiers tied to increasing difficulty levels is completely missing in GW2 - the whole game concept of hamster wheel-style gear grind doesn't exist here. Yes, GW2 does have grind, and grind for gear, but it's for skins, not gear tiers. In fact, if you look at the other legendary gear, you realize very fast that what you claim _every_ MMO does is already something GW2 is not following at all.

>

 

Mb i meant to say "gw2 doesnt have a gear treadmill" What my point is that gw2 fillows the same concept but instead of tying t to stats which give ti advantage they instead tie cosnetics and utility items to it which they feel make sense for the content.

 

The harder/expensive etc the content the better the rewards tied to it. What is better rewards in a game like gw2 is what the devs choose and legendary sets seem pretty reasonable.

 

> >

> > Yes but the core concept has remained the same. The higher u go the better rewarded u are.

> Core concept of what? Because, again, in many ways GW2 is even now not acting like that. Same for other MMOs. You might have been closer to truth if you used "amount of effort" as a comparison, but it doesn't really work like that for just difficulty tiers. In fact, it never did work like that. You may have in mind some idealized version of how you want MMOs to work, but it was _never_ really true.

> Also, again, things working one way for some time is not a sign they cannot be improved. The whole history of MMOs show that a lot of things once thought as the best design wre kept not because they really were that good, but because someone at some point did it that way and others just kept replicating it without much thought due to inertia. Until someone decided to question it and it got changed.

 

 

Oh im all in for further improving it. Thats not what is suggested here. Also out if all the most sucessful mmos atm tell me how WoW or FF14 or bdo went away from having the best rewards tied to the most demaning/hard content?

 

 

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Again, raiding is ALREADY "too worth." It certainly doesn't need more incentives to do it. If people don't want to raid without being bribed into it, then they shouldn't be raiding in the first place.

 

The problem is that you don't really know what you are talking about. Raiding isn't "too worth". Raids are nothing compared to fractals!

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > Ahh yes the market exploits me everyday when i go buy food. Such an evil unfair world.

> >

> > Nothing remotely related to anything I said.

> >

> > Again.

>

> "then the only way to get the rewards outside of raids is using gold, and it would just be another way for raiders to make money off of other players. Again, systems in which players exploit other players for gold should not be encouraged."

>

> Looks pretty related to me

 

It's not though, because you're comparing the real world to games, in a way that doesn't really work. See, in the real world, people work to provide value. You need people to fish because that's the only way to get fish, you need people to cook because that's the only way food gets cooked, and maybe you do those yourself, maybe you pay someone else to. Games don't work like that. In a game, if someone needs to fish to provide fish, that's only because a developer said so. If someone needs to cook to make food available, that's only because a developer said so. If they wanted to provide fish that nobody fished, or a cooked plate that nobody had to cook, they have that option.

 

In real life, everything is at the whim of natural forces, and people have to adapt the best they can. In a game, the purpose is to have fun, and every mechanic that is or is not added to the game should be in the interest of improving fun. Any element that does not improve the fun of the game is a negative to the game, doesn't have to exist, and therefore should not exist.

 

Having items that are artificially difficult or annoying to earn for most players, such that only a relative few players actually earn them, is not fun for most players. Having it so that those few players can sell them to everyone else, at a significant profit, might be fun for them, but it's not fun for their customers. It would be better for the majority of players if those customers had a better option by which *they* could earn the content directly from the game, without having to go through the middleman of another player.

 

>Mb i meant to say "gw2 doesnt have a gear treadmill" What my point is that gw2 fillows the same concept but instead of tying t to stats which give ti advantage they instead tie cosnetics and utility items to it which they feel make sense for the content.

 

But that really does change the mechanic significantly, since in another game, you need to complete content A to be capable of completing content B to be capable of completing content C, that is the "treadmill," whereas in GW2, if you only care about the reward that content C offers, you can skip A and B entirely. That's a significant design difference.

 

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Again, raiding is ALREADY "too worth." It certainly doesn't need more incentives to do it. If people don't want to raid without being bribed into it, then they shouldn't be raiding in the first place.

>

> The problem is that you don't really know what you are talking about. Raiding isn't "too worth". Raids are nothing compared to fractals!

 

Then play Fractals. Entirely up to you. And again, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of improving the "standard" loot from raids by some amount, I just don't think the rewards should be *exclusive* to raids.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > > Ahh yes the market exploits me everyday when i go buy food. Such an evil unfair world.

> > >

> > > Nothing remotely related to anything I said.

> > >

> > > Again.

> >

> > "then the only way to get the rewards outside of raids is using gold, and it would just be another way for raiders to make money off of other players. Again, systems in which players exploit other players for gold should not be encouraged."

> >

> > Looks pretty related to me

>

> It's not though, because you're comparing the real world to games, in a way that doesn't really work. See, in the real world, people work to provide value. You need people to fish because that's the only way to get fish, you need people to cook because that's the only way food gets cooked, and maybe you do those yourself, maybe you pay someone else to. Games don't work like that. In a game, if someone needs to fish to provide fish, that's only because a developer said so. If someone needs to cook to make food available, that's only because a developer said so. If they wanted to provide fish that nobody fished, or a cooked plate that nobody had to cook, they have that option.

>

 

If i would say: "Ahh yes the tp exploits me everytime i buy power food instead of crafting it" what would the diff be? None since basic concepts that exist in the real world also exist in mmos. U dont want to go through the trouble of doing something urself? U pay someone to do it for u or u buy the product yourself.

 

Thats basically how the economy and the value of goods works in most mmos and in many cases gw2 included. Some ppl farm wood some ppl buy it, some ppl farm dungeons make exotic sets some ppl buy them. Asking for that to not be the case for the materials of the legendary armor because that doesnt help your case is selfish.

 

> In real life, everything is at the whim of natural forces, and people have to adapt the best they can. In a game, the purpose is to have fun, and every mechanic that is or is not added to the game should be in the interest of improving fun.

 

Idk m8 the fact that the game forces me to interact, learn to better myself and overcome obstacles for that reward is what makes it fun to me and the rest of the ppl that have and do raid.

 

 

Any element that does not improve the fun of the game is a negative to the game, doesn't have to exist, and therefore should not exist.

>

Just because u dont like it doesnt me it doesnt improve the fun of others, that it isnt a positive to the for them and that it should be removed.

 

> Having items that are artificially difficult or annoying to earn for most players, such that only a relative few players actually earn them, is not fun for most players. Having it so that those few players can sell them to everyone else, at a significant profit, might be fun for them, but it's not fun for their customers. It would be better for the majority of players if those customers had a better option by which *they* could earn the content directly from the game, without having to go through the middleman of another player.

>

Idk in pvp u dont the crown else where than winning the monthly. In wvw u dont get the legendary armor by doing something else.

 

> >Mb i meant to say "gw2 doesnt have a gear treadmill" What my point is that gw2 fillows the same concept but instead of tying t to stats which give ti advantage they instead tie cosnetics and utility items to it which they feel make sense for the content.

>

> But that really does change the mechanic significantly, since in another game, you need to complete content A to be capable of completing content B to be capable of completing content C, that is the "treadmill," whereas in GW2, if you only care about the reward that content C offers, you can skip A and B entirely. That's a significant design difference.

>

Ah ofc u can its the beauty of no gear treadmill its also the beauty of skillbased gameplay of stat based one. U sure can pop a lvl boost and go try raiding or u can start the game aquire exp and proper gear for the class/build u want to play learn the basics through the next hardest thing out there (t4 fractals) and the go to raid.

 

Come 2 or 3 months later to tell me who has made more progress.

 

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > Again, raiding is ALREADY "too worth." It certainly doesn't need more incentives to do it. If people don't want to raid without being bribed into it, then they shouldn't be raiding in the first place.

> >

> > The problem is that you don't really know what you are talking about. Raiding isn't "too worth". Raids are nothing compared to fractals!

>

> Then play Fractals. Entirely up to you. And again, I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of improving the "standard" loot from raids by some amount, I just don't think the rewards should be *exclusive* to raids.

 

The rewards not being exclusive to raids directly hurts the income for quite a number of raiders.

 

As the rewards from fractals not being exclusive would hurt fractals same goes for everything that has an exclusive reward tied to it. Be it pvp open world dungeons etc.