On difficulty modes (Game Maker's Toolkit)

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

>If i would say: "Ahh yes the tp exploits me everytime i buy power food instead of crafting it" what would the diff be? None since basic concepts that exist in the real world also exist in mmos. U dont want to go through the trouble of doing something urself? U pay someone to do it for u or u buy the product yourself.

 

But the difference is that if you wanted to make your own power food, that isn't terribly hard to do. Raids cannot be compared to other content like that, because the barrier of entry between raids and most other things is so much more significant. That's the entire point of this thread, to request a version with a lower barrier of entry.

 

And no "well you can just hop into a raid right now" is not the barrier of entry I'm talking about, and you know that.

 

>Idk m8 the fact that the game forces me to interact, learn to better myself and overcome obstacles for that reward is what makes it fun to me and the rest of the ppl that have and do raid.

 

Yes, but like we discussed earlier, everyone is different, and what you find fun, other people may not. They should definitely leave the current versions in for players like you who enjoy that sort of thing, but also include a *different* version for people who cannot.

 

I'm not suggesting they remove *anything,* only add.

 

>Idk in pvp u dont the crown else where than winning the monthly. In wvw u dont get the legendary armor by doing something else.

 

Again, there are many parts of the game that have this flaw. That is a reason to *fix* those many parts, not a justification for fixing nothing.

 

>Ah ofc u can its the beauty of no gear treadmill its also the beauty of skillbased gameplay of stat based one. U sure can pop a lvl boost and go try raiding or u can start the game aquire exp and proper gear for the class/build u want to play learn the basics through the next hardest thing out there (t4 fractals) and the go to raid.

 

>Come 2 or 3 months later to tell me who has made more progress.

 

Are you arguing that you *can't* just skip content in GW2? That if I wanted one of the Underworld unique rewards I couldn't just devote myself to learning the Underworld raid wing without ever doing the earlier wings? Because in a gear treadmill game that's exactly how it would have to work, if you didn't clear raid 1 then running raid 2 would be like running it in greens, and running raid 3 would be like running it in white gear. Maybe doable, but certainly a significant handicap over beating the earlier content and getting the stronger gear first.

 

>The rewards not being exclusive to raids directly hurts the income for quite a number of raiders.

 

If you mean "income they get off of fellow players," then good. They don't deserve that income. The raid rewards should be balanced around what if everyone could do that content on their own, not balanced around the scarcity of players willing and able to clear it on their own so they are at the whim of whatever prices the raiders choose to set.

 

>As the rewards from fractals not being exclusive would hurt fractals same goes for everything that has an exclusive reward tied to it. Be it pvp open world dungeons etc.

 

And in the end it all balances out, people do the content they most enjoy doing.

[zealex.9410]

Have u even seen tje prices of the meta power food to get the recipe and make it? Lmao.

 

Also geartreadmill mmos tent to over gear content meaning u can go i and solo the content u couldt do alone a year back.

 

Also yes u could in theory make a character get him to lvl 80 and go and try do the underworld raid. But u are shooti g yourself in the foot by doing that, ignoring previous content and exp.

 

The rest is pure ignorance and it shows your lack of knowledge on how mmos and games in general work.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

>Also yes u could in theory make a character get him to lvl 80 and go and try do the underworld raid. But u are shooti g yourself in the foot by doing that, ignoring previous content and exp.

 

It's up to you though, I mean if you don't want to do that stuff, it won't hurt your ability to do the new one like not having "raid3 ready" armor would in a progression game. You could even go back to do the other raids later if you wanted. And yes, progression raid games do have "catch ups" where new players won't have to start with the very first raid to be able to do the newer ones, but each raid "season" tends to start a new grind, so while an expansion might like you skip A, B, C, and D straight to E, you would still need to either complete raid E to be strong enough for raid F, or you'd need to wait a few years for the new item tiers to drop outside the raids. Really though, you do make a good point in that if this were a progression raid game, by this point a player would be able to play Wing one on "easy mode" because the standard junk armor in PoF would completely trivialize them.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> If you mean "income they get off of fellow players," then good. They don't deserve that income.

 

Here we go again. The market decides who deserves what when it comes to income. You think it's unfair? Then get your lazy lower back up and try it yourself. See what you'd think after you got said income in exchange for your own effort. It's very easy, extremely rude and infinitely selfish to say efforts you have never done and don't even understand are unfairly rewarded.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> >Also yes u could in theory make a character get him to lvl 80 and go and try do the underworld raid. But u are shooti g yourself in the foot by doing that, ignoring previous content and exp.

>

> It's up to you though, I mean if you don't want to do that stuff, it won't hurt your ability to do the new one like not having "raid3 ready" armor would in a progression game. You could even go back to do the other raids later if you wanted. And yes, progression raid games do have "catch ups" where new players won't have to start with the very first raid to be able to do the newer ones, but each raid "season" tends to start a new grind, so while an expansion might like you skip A, B, C, and D straight to E, you would still need to either complete raid E to be strong enough for raid F, or you'd need to wait a few years for the new item tiers to drop outside the raids. Really though, you do make a good point in that if this were a progression raid game, by this point a player would be able to play Wing one on "easy mode" because the standard junk armor in PoF would completely trivialize them.

 

Nah it would hurt you plenty. If you dont have exp and start from the get go with no prior knowledge on basics then u are making it hard on your self for no good reason.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Example?

...i already gave one to you. TP is full of items whose price is high only because a lot of people seem to put a lot of value on the ability to get to the things they want sooner.

 

>

> > > Gw2 does have gear threadmills that doesnt mean that it doesnt have utility items and cosmetics tied to content based on various factors. Dificulty included.

> > Primary reason why other games have the increasing gear tiers tied to increasing difficulty levels is completely missing in GW2 - the whole game concept of hamster wheel-style gear grind doesn't exist here. Yes, GW2 does have grind, and grind for gear, but it's for skins, not gear tiers. In fact, if you look at the other legendary gear, you realize very fast that what you claim _every_ MMO does is already something GW2 is not following at all.

> >

>

> Mb i meant to say "gw2 doesnt have a gear treadmill" What my point is that gw2 fillows the same concept but instead of tying t to stats which give ti advantage they instead tie cosnetics and utility items to it which they feel make sense for the content.

That's something completely different than your original point of "The highest tier of content gives the best gear in any game" (and that "literally no MMO" breaks with that design goal - which is obviously not true, and an counterexample is even in my post you quoted above)

 

>

> The harder/expensive etc the content the better the rewards tied to it. What is better rewards in a game like gw2 is what the devs choose and legendary sets seem pretty reasonable.

>

Ah, shifting the goalpost, adding the "more expensive" to it, so you can slide over the fact that the original one was only about tiers of content? You do know that is a completely different point now to the one you originally had to make (probably because you realized your original one was simply not true)?

 

> > >

> > > Yes but the core concept has remained the same. The higher u go the better rewarded u are.

> > Core concept of what? Because, again, in many ways GW2 is even now not acting like that. Same for other MMOs. You might have been closer to truth if you used "amount of effort" as a comparison, but it doesn't really work like that for just difficulty tiers. In fact, it never did work like that. You may have in mind some idealized version of how you want MMOs to work, but it was _never_ really true.

> > Also, again, things working one way for some time is not a sign they cannot be improved. The whole history of MMOs show that a lot of things once thought as the best design wre kept not because they really were that good, but because someone at some point did it that way and others just kept replicating it without much thought due to inertia. Until someone decided to question it and it got changed.

>

>

> Oh im all in for further improving it. Thats not what is suggested here. Also out if all the most sucessful mmos atm tell me how WoW or FF14 or bdo went away from having the best rewards tied to the most demaning/hard content?

Statwise they didn't, but we don't have gear treadmill here. Getting _wealth_ though...

(besides, does the term "welfare epics" ring a bell?)

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> As the rewards from fractals not being exclusive would hurt fractals same goes for everything that has an exclusive reward tied to it. Be it pvp open world dungeons etc.

Open world dungeons were not hurt by making their exclusive rewards non-exclusive. It was decrease to liquid gold (and visible dev abandonment) that did that. Same with Fractals - their ups and downs are not tied to any exclusives at all. It's the significant liquid gold that people are mainly interested in, not the exclusives. The only exclusives that may possibly generate some longer-;asting interest are in CMs, but if you haven't noticed those are actually way less popular than the rest of the fractals.

And some people would argue that exclusives actually hurt SPvP more than they helped. The PvErs rush on the Ascension had some significantly negative impacts on the PvP community.

 

[zealex.9410]

The example u "gave" only proves my point. Ppl consider paying large amounds of gold easier than doing the content hence the price of these items is high.

 

There are tiers tied to dificulty and tiers tied to price points. Both work simmilarly.

 

The liquid gold is directly affected by exclusive resources and rewards tied to fractals. Of you were fir example to introduce matrices in pvp or open world the liquid gold from fractals would drop.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Here we go again. The market decides who deserves what when it comes to income.

 

And AGAIN, the market only reacts to the systems ANet puts in place. If ANet changes the systems, the market adapts. If ANet greatly increased the drop rate of a rare item, for example, the price would fall. You can't blame the free market for this one because there IS no free market in a videogame.

 

>You think it's unfair? Then get your lazy lower back up and try it yourself. See what you'd think after you got said income in exchange for your own effort.

 

Again, I would entertain the idea of the base loot from raids being raised, but ultimately if you don't think it's worth your time, then just don't do it. Raiding shouldn't be a "chore," if you don't enjoy it enough to do it unless it's very lucrative, then you shouldn't be doing it at all.

 

 

[zealex.9410]

edited(edited)

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Open world dungeons were not hurt by making their exclusive rewards non-exclusive. It was decrease to liquid gold (and visible dev abandonment) that did that. Same with Fractals - their ups and downs are not tied to any exclusives at all. It's the significant liquid gold that people are mainly interested in, not the exclusives. The only exclusives that may possibly generate some longer-;asting interest are in CMs, but if you haven't noticed those are actually way less popular than the rest of the fractals.

> And some people would argue that exclusives actually hurt SPvP more than they helped. The PvErs rush on the Ascension had some significantly negative impacts on the PvP community.

>

 

CMs are way less popular because they're way more harder. You can't just pinpoint everything on a single factor, there are many.

 

For instance, dungeons currently are NOT completely dead precisely because of the exclusive rewards. Namely, people run them for the tokens because these are still needed. Consider replacing **every** reward in the game with gold and making everything purchasable by gold. The vast majority of the population would migrate to farms with high yield and **low effort**. Exclusivity mitigates this by giving an incentive to accept lower yield/effort ratios as being worth your time.

 

Another point is that a lot of the exclusive rewards are one-time. You want that dungeon skin? You can get it pretty fast and then you own it forever. Meaning the importance of this particular reward for the decision-making of the players will be steadily declining as more and more people get it.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Here we go again. The market decides who deserves what when it comes to income.

>

> And AGAIN, the market only reacts to the systems ANet puts in place. If ANet changes the systems, the market adapts. If ANet greatly increased the drop rate of a rare item, for example, the price would fall. You can't blame the free market for this one because there IS no free market in a videogame.

>

> >You think it's unfair? Then get your lazy lower back up and try it yourself. See what you'd think after you got said income in exchange for your own effort.

>

> Again, I would entertain the idea of the base loot from raids being raised, but ultimately if you don't think it's worth your time, then just don't do it. Raiding shouldn't be a "chore," if you don't enjoy it enough to do it unless it's very lucrative, then you shouldn't be doing it at all.

>

>

 

Nice utopia, see above. It's not how things work.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>For instance, dungeons currently are NOT completely dead precisely because of the exclusive rewards. Namely, people run them for the tokens because these are still needed.

 

That's silly, it's *much* easier to gather those tokens from PvP tracks, even if you don't really PvP much.

 

>Consider replacing every reward in the game with gold and making everything purchasable by gold.

 

Gold would be a bad idea, because ANet's allowed their gold economy to run away for too long, it's a poor currency that is massively imbalanced toward the wealthy. Whatever currency they use, it needs to be something that cannot be traded between players.

 

>The vast majority of the population would migrate to farms with high yield and low effort.

 

The solution would be to only have farms that are high yield OR low effort, never both at once. And even if one farm is more efficient than another at accumulating general currency, the system should be designed to give priority to doing content in the "right" location, so farming in the original place (raids, dungeons, PvP, etc.) should always be the most efficient method.

 

>Exclusivity mitigates this by giving an incentive to accept lower yield/effort ratios as being worth your time.

 

But it limits you by allowing you to progress to the reward you want ONLY through that specific task. That causes more harm than good.

 

>Another point is that a lot of the exclusive rewards are one-time. You want that dungeon skin? You can get it pretty fast and then you own it forever. Meaning the importance of this particular reward for the decision-making of the players will be steadily declining as more and more people get it.

 

True, and that's why expanding the amount of rewards you can earn from a single task improves the game for everyone, allowing even players who have "cleaned out" that task's natural rewards to continue farming it for cool new stuff.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > Open world dungeons were not hurt by making their exclusive rewards non-exclusive. It was decrease to liquid gold (and visible dev abandonment) that did that. Same with Fractals - their ups and downs are not tied to any exclusives at all. It's the significant liquid gold that people are mainly interested in, not the exclusives. The only exclusives that may possibly generate some longer-;asting interest are in CMs, but if you haven't noticed those are actually way less popular than the rest of the fractals.

> > And some people would argue that exclusives actually hurt SPvP more than they helped. The PvErs rush on the Ascension had some significantly negative impacts on the PvP community.

> >

>

> CMs are way less popular because they're way more harder. You can't just pinpoint everything on a single factor, there are many.

>

> For instance, dungeons currently are NOT completely dead precisely because of the exclusive rewards. Namely, people run them for the tokens because these are still needed.

Tokens and armor skins are no longer exclusive, and the reward tracks are actually a decent way of obtaining those (At least comparable to original one). Yes, some people run the dungeons for them, but it's not because they have no choice, it's because they prefer this method. There are also people that still do the dungeons for fun (i know i do - and i don't need any tokens). Besides, you didn't really contradict what i said - it was the changes to non-exclusive rewards and dev policy that hurt the content. When the exclusives were made non-exclusive, dungeon popularity didn't suffer even a tiny bit.

 

Also, did you really suggest that exclusives should be used to prop a failing content, instead of addressing the real reasons why said content is failing?

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Another point is that a lot of the exclusive rewards are one-time. You want that dungeon skin? You can get it pretty fast and then you own it forever. Meaning the importance of this particular reward for the decision-making of the players will be steadily declining as more and more people get it.

Indeed - which means that exclusives are mostly useless as a longterm incentive anyway. That's what Ohoni says, that there should be a reward for visiting the niche content, so you can have a chance to see whether you might like it or not, but exclusives for heavily investing in it are at best a shortterm solution and do not offer anything positive to a game you hope will last longer.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> >Exclusivity mitigates this by giving an incentive to accept lower yield/effort ratios as being worth your time.

>

> But it limits you by allowing you to progress to the reward you want ONLY through that specific task. That causes more harm than good.

 

Actually it doesn't. It keeps these specific tasks alive by keeping players motivated in them. It's a win-win.

 

P.S. And wtf are you talking about, dungeon tokens are extremely fast and easy to get from running actual dungeons. Why would I subject myself to pvp for them instead of speedrunning some fast paths?

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > Open world dungeons were not hurt by making their exclusive rewards non-exclusive. It was decrease to liquid gold (and visible dev abandonment) that did that. Same with Fractals - their ups and downs are not tied to any exclusives at all. It's the significant liquid gold that people are mainly interested in, not the exclusives. The only exclusives that may possibly generate some longer-;asting interest are in CMs, but if you haven't noticed those are actually way less popular than the rest of the fractals.

> > > And some people would argue that exclusives actually hurt SPvP more than they helped. The PvErs rush on the Ascension had some significantly negative impacts on the PvP community.

> > >

> >

> > CMs are way less popular because they're way more harder. You can't just pinpoint everything on a single factor, there are many.

> >

> > For instance, dungeons currently are NOT completely dead precisely because of the exclusive rewards. Namely, people run them for the tokens because these are still needed.

> Tokens and armor skins are no longer exclusive, and the reward tracks are actually a decent way of obtaining those (At least comparable to original one). Yes, some people run the dungeons for them, but it's not because they have no choice, it's because they prefer this method. There are also people that still do the dungeons for fun (i know i do - and i don't need any tokens). Besides, you didn't really contradict what i said - it was the changes to non-exclusive rewards and dev policy that hurt the content. When the exclusives were made non-exclusive, dungeon popularity didn't suffer even a tiny bit.

>

> Also, did you really suggest that exclusives should be used to prop a failing content, instead of addressing the real reasons why said content is failing?

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Another point is that a lot of the exclusive rewards are one-time. You want that dungeon skin? You can get it pretty fast and then you own it forever. Meaning the importance of this particular reward for the decision-making of the players will be steadily declining as more and more people get it.

> Indeed - which means that exclusives are mostly useless as a longterm incentive anyway. That's what Ohoni says, that there should be a reward for visiting the niche content, so you can have a chance to see whether you might like it or not, but exclusives for heavily investing in it are at best a shortterm solution and do not offer anything positive to a game you hope will last longer.

>

>

 

No Ohoni says that these rewarss should be given in other places as well. That will only accelerate the process of ppl moving on from the content.

[zealex.9410]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > Open world dungeons were not hurt by making their exclusive rewards non-exclusive. It was decrease to liquid gold (and visible dev abandonment) that did that. Same with Fractals - their ups and downs are not tied to any exclusives at all. It's the significant liquid gold that people are mainly interested in, not the exclusives. The only exclusives that may possibly generate some longer-;asting interest are in CMs, but if you haven't noticed those are actually way less popular than the rest of the fractals.

> > > > And some people would argue that exclusives actually hurt SPvP more than they helped. The PvErs rush on the Ascension had some significantly negative impacts on the PvP community.

> > > >

> > >

> > > CMs are way less popular because they're way more harder. You can't just pinpoint everything on a single factor, there are many.

> > >

> > > For instance, dungeons currently are NOT completely dead precisely because of the exclusive rewards. Namely, people run them for the tokens because these are still needed.

> > Tokens and armor skins are no longer exclusive, and the reward tracks are actually a decent way of obtaining those (At least comparable to original one). Yes, some people run the dungeons for them, but it's not because they have no choice, it's because they prefer this method. There are also people that still do the dungeons for fun (i know i do - and i don't need any tokens). Besides, you didn't really contradict what i said - it was the changes to non-exclusive rewards and dev policy that hurt the content. When the exclusives were made non-exclusive, dungeon popularity didn't suffer even a tiny bit.

> >

> > Also, did you really suggest that exclusives should be used to prop a failing content, instead of addressing the real reasons why said content is failing?

> >

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Another point is that a lot of the exclusive rewards are one-time. You want that dungeon skin? You can get it pretty fast and then you own it forever. Meaning the importance of this particular reward for the decision-making of the players will be steadily declining as more and more people get it.

> > Indeed - which means that exclusives are mostly useless as a longterm incentive anyway. That's what Ohoni says, that there should be a reward for visiting the niche content, so you can have a chance to see whether you might like it or not, but exclusives for heavily investing in it are at best a shortterm solution and do not offer anything positive to a game you hope will last longer.

> >

> >

>

> No Ohoni says that these rewarss should be given in other places as well so he wont have to touch raids. That will only accelerate the process of ppl moving on from the content.

 

And to use ohonis own medicine why should be players outside rhe target audience be bribed to try the content to see wether they like it? Content is there ppl can try it.If they dont like it thwn thats that the content isnt aimed at the majority of players anyways so it doesnt matter much.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >For instance, dungeons currently are NOT completely dead precisely because of the exclusive rewards. Namely, people run them for the tokens because these are still needed.

>

> That's silly, it's *much* easier to gather those tokens from PvP tracks, even if you don't really PvP much.

>

> >Consider replacing every reward in the game with gold and making everything purchasable by gold.

>

> Gold would be a bad idea, because ANet's allowed their gold economy to run away for too long, it's a poor currency that is massively imbalanced toward the wealthy. Whatever currency they use, it needs to be something that cannot be traded between players.

>

> >The vast majority of the population would migrate to farms with high yield and low effort.

>

> The solution would be to only have farms that are high yield OR low effort, never both at once. And even if one farm is more efficient than another at accumulating general currency, the system should be designed to give priority to doing content in the "right" location, so farming in the original place (raids, dungeons, PvP, etc.) should always be the most efficient method.

>

> >Exclusivity mitigates this by giving an incentive to accept lower yield/effort ratios as being worth your time.

>

> But it limits you by allowing you to progress to the reward you want ONLY through that specific task. That causes more harm than good.

>

> >Another point is that a lot of the exclusive rewards are one-time. You want that dungeon skin? You can get it pretty fast and then you own it forever. Meaning the importance of this particular reward for the decision-making of the players will be steadily declining as more and more people get it.

>

> True, and that's why expanding the amount of rewards you can earn from a single task improves the game for everyone, allowing even players who have "cleaned out" that task's natural rewards to continue farming it for cool new stuff.

 

And how is giving the same legendary armor else where expanding the amound of rewards?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>Actually it doesn't. It keeps these specific tasks alive by keeping players motivated in them. It's a win-win.

 

Again, specific tasks should be "kept alive" by people *wanting* to do them, not by bribing them into it. If nobody *wants* to do the mode, then they need to change the mode to make people *want* to do it.

 

>P.S. And kitten are you talking about, dungeon tokens are extremely fast and easy to get from running actual dungeons. Why would I subject myself to pvp for them instead of speedrunning some fast paths?

 

Up to you, but at least you have the choice, right?

 

>No Ohoni says that these rewarss should be given in other places as well. That will only accelerate the process of ppl moving on from the content.

 

Only if people *want* to move on from the content, in which case it's better for everyone if they *do.*

 

>And to use ohonis own medicine why should be players outside rhe target audience be bribed to try the content to see wether they like it? Content is there ppl can try it.If they dont like it thwn thats that the content isnt aimed at the majority of players anyways so it doesnt matter much.

 

Agreed, but the point is that this argument doesn't apply when a certain type of content is the only option for acquiring a certain reward they might want.

 

>And how is giving the same legendary armor else where expanding the amound of rewards?

 

Because holistically, I would want more rewards *brought* to raids as well. Like running dungeons but already have the dungeoneer title? Well now you can start working towards raid armor, or The Ascension. It'll take a while, but you can work at it. Like raid wing 1 but already have all the unique loot you can get there? Well now you can get the Ascension, or Legendary weapons, or the WvW backpiece, whatever you like. It may be faster to earn it from the "right" activity, but there would at least be a path. You lose exclusivity, you gain *access* to hundreds of other items.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >Actually it doesn't. It keeps these specific tasks alive by keeping players motivated in them. It's a win-win.

>

> Again, specific tasks should be "kept alive" by people *wanting* to do them, not by bribing them into it. If nobody *wants* to do the mode, then they need to change the mode to make people *want* to do it.

 

And again, that's not how it works. You can't tell people how they should feel. How should they have fun. That's personal, and it's up to them. If you disregard this fact, your endeavour is doomed to fail. So successful games don't do that. They accept it and build their design with that in mind.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> And again, that's not how it works. You can't tell people how they should feel. How should they have fun. That's personal, and it's up to them. If you disregard this fact, your endeavour is doomed to fail.

 

I'm not though. This entire thread, *you've* been telling *me* how to feel, that I should either be content with not having raid-exclusive rewards, OR be content with raiding, that I should be content with the limited options presented to me. I'm saying, give people the choice. Don't bribe them into playing content, just *fairly reward them* for clearing it, so that whatever they do, the rewards are "good enough." Then allow them to choose. If running that content would make them happy? Let them run that content. If running something else would make their happier, let them run that other content. If they don't feel that a given type of content is worth their time unless it pays out *better* than anything else, then that is not content worth supporting. Just have the better rewards in content people already want to do, whatever that content may be. I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to enjoy, I'm saying, let them play what they like.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > And again, that's not how it works. You can't tell people how they should feel. How should they have fun. That's personal, and it's up to them. If you disregard this fact, your endeavour is doomed to fail.

>

> I'm not though. This entire thread, *you've* been telling *me* how to feel, that I should either be content with not having raid-exclusive rewards, OR be content with raiding, that I should be content with the limited options presented to me. I'm saying, give people the choice. Don't bribe them into playing content, just *fairly reward them* for clearing it, so that whatever they do, the rewards are "good enough." Then allow them to choose. If running that content would make them happy? Let them run that content. If running something else would make their happier, let them run that other content. If they don't feel that a given type of content is worth their time unless it pays out *better* than anything else, then that is not content worth supporting. Just have the better rewards in content people already want to do, whatever that content may be. I'm not trying to tell anyone else what to enjoy, I'm saying, let them play what they like.

 

The world is bigger than yourself, mate. I'm not telling you how to feel, I'm telling you what's done for the sake of other players. You choose to stick with your beliefs, because this is more comfortable for you. Understandable, but unproductive. It's your own choice, though, so feel free. However, don't make the mistake to take your beliefs as valid arguments. There can be, and there are people who think otherwise. As I am reminding you over and over. And this is business. It can't afford to pick you and stick with your beliefs, because you're just one average customer and there are many many more out there. If you believe so much that you're right, go on and make your own mmorpg. If your design ideas are so sound, it must be a grand success, right?

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> No Ohoni says that these rewarss should be given in other places as well.

That is his ultimate goal, but if you do read him you can see that he _isn't_ really opposed to the exclusives for "checking out" the content and sees the value in those.

 

> That will only accelerate the process of ppl moving on from the content.

If people are moving out of the content, it means that there's some bigger problem with it than a lack of exclusives. If you want to stop that, you need to address _those_ problems, not try to use exclusives to cover them up and pretend everything is okay now.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > >Actually it doesn't. It keeps these specific tasks alive by keeping players motivated in them. It's a win-win.

> >

> > Again, specific tasks should be "kept alive" by people *wanting* to do them, not by bribing them into it. If nobody *wants* to do the mode, then they need to change the mode to make people *want* to do it.

>

> And again, that's not how it works. You can't tell people how they should feel. How should they have fun. That's personal, and it's up to them.

Precisely. That is why bribing people to do the content is not a good idea. If they don't like the content, exclusives won't change it. If they like it, exclusives aren't necessary.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> And to use ohonis own medicine why should be players outside rhe target audience be bribed to try the content to see wether they like it? Content is there ppl can try it.If they dont like it thwn thats that the content isnt aimed at the majority of players anyways so it doesnt matter much.

So, you're saying... no exclusives?

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>The world is bigger than yourself, mate. I'm not telling you how to feel, I'm telling you what's done for the sake of other players.

 

That's my point though, I'm telling *you* what's in the best interests of the other players. Relatively few people play raids in their current form, this would make those rewards and content available to a much larger audience.

 

>If you believe so much that you're right, go on and make your own mmorpg. If your design ideas are so sound, it must be a grand success, right?

 

Hey, if you'll give me the tens of millions of dollars I'd need to do it right, I'm on board, but short of that, I don't see that as being likely.

 

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > >Actually it doesn't. It keeps these specific tasks alive by keeping players motivated in them. It's a win-win.

> > >

> > > Again, specific tasks should be "kept alive" by people *wanting* to do them, not by bribing them into it. If nobody *wants* to do the mode, then they need to change the mode to make people *want* to do it.

> >

> > And again, that's not how it works. You can't tell people how they should feel. How should they have fun. That's personal, and it's up to them.

> Precisely. That is why bribing people to do the content is not a good idea. If they don't like the content, exclusives won't change it. If they like it, exclusives aren't necessary.

 

It is precisely why you have no choice but to "bribe" people. Because we're talking about content designed to be replayed hundreds of times. This is orders of magnitude above what anyone can find fun based on the play experience alone. No matter how special snowflake you are, no matter how great the content is, this amount of repetition *WILL* get you bored. True, if you never liked the content, exclusive rewards won't help. **But if you do**, they make it possible to play this excessive amount of times **and still have fun**. And here's the thing - it makes no sense to structure your rewards to the benefit of players who don't like the content/mode. It makes sense to structure it for those who do, as they are the intended consumers, and their game experience is what this content was developed for in the first place.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >The world is bigger than yourself, mate. I'm not telling you how to feel, I'm telling you what's done for the sake of other players.

>

> That's my point though, I'm telling *you* what's in the best interests of the other players. Relatively few people play raids in their current form, this would make those rewards and content available to a much larger audience.

 

Best interests of non-raiders are irrelevant in the context of raid rewards. See above my response to @Astralporing.1957.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >If you believe so much that you're right, go on and make your own mmorpg. If your design ideas are so sound, it must be a grand success, right?

>

> Hey, if you'll give me the tens of millions of dollars I'd need to do it right, I'm on board, but short of that, I don't see that as being likely.

 

Free tip: funding is often found from a publisher. You write a design, maybe a proof-of-concept of your game and you sell it to a publisher. The problem isn't finding the money. The problem is convincing the publisher you're right, because you aren't and any game publisher will very well know it.They are in the business, after all.