On difficulty modes (Game Maker's Toolkit)

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> It is precisely why you have no choice but to "bribe" people. Because we're talking about content designed to be replayed hundreds of times. This is orders of magnitude above what anyone can find fun based on the play experience alone. No matter how special snowflake you are, no matter how great the content is, this amount of repetition *WILL* get you bored. True, if you never liked the content, exclusive rewards won't help. **But if you do**, they make it possible to play this excessive amount of times **and still have fun**.

Except exclusives are one-time rewards, not meant for content longevity. That you can get by offering liquid gold, materials and other similar rewards in satisfying quantities. Especially since the people liking the content do not have to like the exclusives at all (because, again, liking one and liking the other are completely not connected).

 

So, ideally you need rewards that are good enough that people playing the content won't think they are losing out, but _not_ good enough to make people play the content for rewards alone. Not unless you want to create a mindless farm players will not enjoy and/or cause player discontent.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

>It is precisely why you have no choice but to "bribe" people. Because we're talking about content designed to be replayed hundreds of times. This is orders of magnitude above what anyone can find fun based on the play experience alone.

 

Then as soon as it stops being fun for them, they *should* move on to something else, something they find more fun. All activities should have some rewards, so that players have that sense of general progress, but players should never feel "locked into" a specific gameplay mode because they still want to chase some reward, when they would much rather be playing some other mode.

 

>And here's the thing - it makes no sense to structure your rewards to the benefit of players who don't like the content/mode.

 

But again, that ONLY applies *if they can get those rewards elsewhere.* If this content is the ONLY place to get those rewards, then that presents a problem for players who don't enjoy that content. You cannot argue that just because the developers decided to stick a certain skin into a certain type of content, that this skin "is not for" anyone who doesn't like that specific type of content. The groups [people who enjoy that content] and [people who enjoy that skin] are completely separate groups that have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.

 

If you develop the content exclusively for people who enjoy that content, while also providing lures that are guaranteed to attract people who will *not* enjoy that content, then you're just constructing a trap. It's ok to design the content to only appeal to a niche audience, so long as *nobody outside that niche ever has to go there for any reason,* but as soon as you start luring in people from outside that niche, their feelings on the matter factor into it just as much. This is a complete game, and the existence of niche content with rewards and story that matter to players from all parts of the game, it *does* degrade those players' overall experience if they cannot enjoy those portions as well.

 

>Best interests of non-raiders are irrelevant in the context of raid rewards. See above my response to @Astralporing.1957.

 

Not so long as rewards or game story are involved. Period.

 

>Free tip: funding is often found from a publisher. You write a design, maybe a proof-of-concept of your game and you sell it to a publisher.

 

Again, guarantee such funding and we're good, but really I don't believe I have the credentials to get a publisher to commit to such a product at the current time, so I'll just focus on making GW2 the best it can be. That seems far more realistic.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > The truth is, if you don't like raids, easy mode isn't really making new content that you like, its just letting you grind out content you don't like. Buying and selling actually gives you options to play the content you enjoy.

>

> The reason I don't enjoy raids is because of the difficulty of them, the significant chance of failure, the hassle of building just the right party to tackle it. An easy mode raid would remove those problems, which would make it an enjoyable activity for me. I would certainly much prefer "grinding out" the easy mode raids required to earn the gear than I would "grinding out" the gold required to buy it off raiders second hand.

 

Well what specific reward are you trying to obtain? There are already several raids that are so easy, that they don't deserve an easy mode. Most rewards can already be grinded out using these easy raids if your patient and do them every week.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > The truth is, if you don't like raids, easy mode isn't really making new content that you like, its just letting you grind out content you don't like. Buying and selling actually gives you options to play the content you enjoy.

> >

> > The reason I don't enjoy raids is because of the difficulty of them, the significant chance of failure, the hassle of building just the right party to tackle it. An easy mode raid would remove those problems, which would make it an enjoyable activity for me. I would certainly much prefer "grinding out" the easy mode raids required to earn the gear than I would "grinding out" the gold required to buy it off raiders second hand.

>

> Well what specific reward are you trying to obtain? There are already several raids that are so easy, that they don't deserve an easy mode. Most rewards can already be grinded out using these easy raids if your patient and do them every week.

 

Legendary armor (which requires you to beat every boss, unless I'm mistaken), Sparking Vanquisher, Sabeth'a Crucible, Oblivion, Shrouded Bench of the Final Judge, probably other stuff as it gets added to the game. Again though, the point is not to have a few random encounters in there that are easier than others, the point is to be able to play through the *entire* raid in an easier mode. Start to finish.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> >It is precisely why you have no choice but to "bribe" people. Because we're talking about content designed to be replayed hundreds of times. This is orders of magnitude above what anyone can find fun based on the play experience alone.

>

> Then as soon as it stops being fun for them, they *should* move on to something else, something they find more fun.

 

Again you're trying to tell people what they should do. And furthermore, that's not the intent of the developer. The developer doesn't want these players to move on, they want them playing **their** game, not their competitor's. Hence, they design content in such a way that it can remain fun for very, very long time.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> >And here's the thing - it makes no sense to structure your rewards to the benefit of players who don't like the content/mode.

 

No, it doesn't - it applies universally. Rewards aren't something you inherently are entitled for. They aren't your human right. They're something you earn. It's a game. You want to win it/get the reward it offers? You play it. Simple as that.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > The truth is, if you don't like raids, easy mode isn't really making new content that you like, its just letting you grind out content you don't like. Buying and selling actually gives you options to play the content you enjoy.

> > >

> > > The reason I don't enjoy raids is because of the difficulty of them, the significant chance of failure, the hassle of building just the right party to tackle it. An easy mode raid would remove those problems, which would make it an enjoyable activity for me. I would certainly much prefer "grinding out" the easy mode raids required to earn the gear than I would "grinding out" the gold required to buy it off raiders second hand.

> >

> > Well what specific reward are you trying to obtain? There are already several raids that are so easy, that they don't deserve an easy mode. Most rewards can already be grinded out using these easy raids if your patient and do them every week.

>

> Legendary armor (which requires you to beat every boss, unless I'm mistaken), Sparking Vanquisher, Sabeth'a Crucible, Oblivion, Shrouded Bench of the Final Judge, probably other stuff as it gets added to the game. Again though, the point is not to have a few random encounters in there that are easier than others, the point is to be able to play through the *entire* raid in an easier mode. Start to finish.

>

>

 

So are you already doing escort, trio, rainbow road, MO every week and enjoying them?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Again you're trying to tell people what they should do.

 

Look, an individual player's choice is his choice. I'm saying that the developers should not block their path.

 

We have a given content type. *You* are telling me that, at a certain point, you would go "I am bored with this content. I don't want to do it anymore. Developers! Hey Developers! You'd better bribe me with unique loot, or I'm going to stop playing this content, and go play some other content in the game!"

 

Well the developers shouldn't do that. They shouldn't bribe you to keep playing content that you don't want to play. They should either make the content more fun, so that you'd *want* to continue playing it as it is, or they should allow you to play that other content instead.

 

I am not telling other players what to do, I'm saying that the developers should not juice their decisionmaking by offering unique rewards.

 

>And furthermore, that's not the intent of the developer. The developer doesn't want these players to move on, they want them playing their game, not their competitor's.

 

I'm not talking about their competitors. I'm talking about other parts of the game. I'm saying, if you get bored running dungeons, you can do open world. If you get bored with PvP, you can run raids. If the rewards are interesting enough to get you to keep raiding, then I wouldn't be doing anything to mess with that. Those rewards would still exist in raiding, they would just also exist in other content. You could keep raiding to get them, or you could do other content to get them. So long as those rewards are enough to drive your progress, you wouldn't be looking to other competitors, the only "competition" would be between different facets of this game, and *whatever* you choose there, *everyone* wins. You're happier doing whatever you most enjoy doing (which is entirely up to you), and ANet's happy because whatever it is you're doing, it's in their game.

 

>> @"thrag.9740" said:

> So are you already doing escort, trio, rainbow road, MO every week and enjoying them?

 

Nope, because they won't get me to my goals, and are not the sort fo play experience I'm looking for.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I'm not talking about their competitors. I'm talking about other parts of the game. I'm saying, if you get bored running dungeons, you can do open world. If you get bored with PvP, you can run raids.

 

And if there isn't an incentive to revisit them, you'd still exhaust everything in a month.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > I'm not talking about their competitors. I'm talking about other parts of the game. I'm saying, if you get bored running dungeons, you can do open world. If you get bored with PvP, you can run raids.

>

> And if there isn't an incentive to revisit them, you'd still exhaust everything in a month.

 

But again, you seem to be confused about what I'm suggesting here. I am not *removing* even a single thing from the equation. I am not proposing anythig that would speed up the exhaustion process.

 

Say you have Content A, and Content A offers ten unique rewards, rewards 1-10.

 

Say you have Content B, and Content B offers ten unique rewards, rewards 11-20.

 

And let's say that each of these rewards would take, on average, one week to earn.

 

So it would take you ten weeks of running Content A to get 1-10, and another ten weeks of running Content B to get 11-20, twenty weeks in total if you wanted all 20 rewards.

 

With me?

 

Ok, *all* I am proposing is that you be allowed to get all 20 rewards from *both* Content A *and* Content B. It would still take a total of twenty weeks playing the game to get all 20, it would still take ten weeks to get 10 of them, the only distinction is that if you hated Content A, but really wanted item 7, you could instead earn it from Content B. You could get all 20 from Content B, you could get all 20 from Content A, whichever you preferred. You could even get items 1-10 from B and 11-20 from A if you felt like it.

 

And as a nod to "exclusivity" and "making each mode special," let's say that it takes a week and a half per item if you do the "wrong" content, so if you got 1-10 from A and 11-20 from B, it would only take you twenty weeks, but if you got all of them from B, it would take a total of twenty five, and if you did them backwards like I described above, it would take you thirty. But you could still do that if you *really* didn't want to do one or the other. The choice would *always* be up to the player, providing choices that the current system does not offer, and at no point would the player "finish" in less time than he would under the current system, so however long it would take for him to "exhaust" the current system, it would take at least that long, potentially longer, to "exhaust" the proposed alternative.

 

Now, hopefully you understand what I mean now, and won't have reason to misconstrue it. Given that, *now* what do you think?

[Feanor.2358]

You're still removing an incentive from players to play something different, which will ultimately result in them getting bored of the game faster. Plus, you're only thinking in time-gates. Let me tell you, the time-gated provisioner tokens were by far the worst part of crafting the envoy armor. They aren't remotely fun. You can say that LIs are time-gated as well, but you spend months raiding before they become a routine time-gate. Somehow I doubt you mean your path B to feature similar skill progression.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > I'm not talking about their competitors. I'm talking about other parts of the game. I'm saying, if you get bored running dungeons, you can do open world. If you get bored with PvP, you can run raids.

>

> And if there isn't an incentive to revisit them, you'd still exhaust everything in a month.

Exclusives are an incentive to visit the content, not to revisit it. By the point you get bored you are almost certain to have obtained all the exclusives you wanted already. Unless you never really liked the content in the first place.

 

I'm pretty sure that the current veteran raiders (those that raid from the very beginning and are still doing it) are _not_ doing it because of exclusives.

 

So, what exclusives from the old wings are _you_ pursuing exactly? And if there _are_ any you haven't obtained yet, would you stop raiding after you did?

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> You're still removing an incentive from players to play something different, which will ultimately result in them getting bored of the game faster.

 

No, that's a faulty argument, for several reasons:

 

1. It's *reducing* the incentive to play different things, perhaps, but not removing it. Since "playing the right content" would be faster, there would still be *incentive* to play that mode, it just wouldn't be *required.*

2. I would not oppose having one reward be buried shallowly enough in the content that anyone could get it with a few hours effort. That encourages players to at least *try* that mode and see if they like it, but then it allows them to make their own choices afterward and stay or move on.

3. Requiring players to play certain content does not mean they will enjoy it. A player who is doing things he does not enjoy is worse than a customer who has gotten a bit bored of something he does enjoy. This is especially true in a gem store game, since a happy customer is more likely to spend than an unhappy but grudging one.

4. Content that isn't getting played benefits no one. In my example above, if a player hates Content A so much that he'd never do it, then it does not matter that double the time on Content B might wear it out sooner, because Content A isn't something he'd want to do regardless. It's better for him to have the *choice* of A or B, than to restrict him to one. For a player that might enjoy both, if playing double the Content B would bore them, then they can always do Content A instead. Again, choice hurts nothing.

 

>Plus, you're only thinking in time-gates. Let me tell you, the time-gated provisioner tokens were by far the worst part of crafting the envoy armor. They aren't remotely fun. You can say that LIs are time-gated as well, but you spend months raiding before they become a routine time-gate. Somehow I doubt you mean your path B to feature similar skill progression.

 

I wasn't speaking strictly of time gates, I was speaking in terms of average progression, *however* that works. It could be time gate, it could be repetitions of the event, I was just using in the example that if both A and B took *on average* one week per reward, then that would be maintained. Basically, I would not be changing that in any way. The average time per reward would be maintained, the average time to clear out the local shop would be maintained.

 

My point is, under my proposal, it would **never take any less time doing it that way than it currently would.**

 

 

[zealex.9410]

Good content and good rewards go hand to hand. Stuff like "such good content it doesnt need great rewards" doesnt exist. And its not "hey devs bribe me to continue doing this content" its "hey devs this is getting old give me new content with new shinies to do".

 

Why if i was tired of running the same dungeons would i go to open world? Open world is complete garbage and a bore fest after 2 or 3 times. Instance content is fun, can be engaging and challenging due to that instanced nature and they can add cool rewards to it fitting of its engaging nature and its challenge. If they stop releasing fractals and raids or flat out make them unrewarding ill just go to the next game that does them well both in terms of challenge/engagement and in terms of rewards.

 

 

THE POINT ISNT THAT CONTENT A GIVES THE REWARDS THAT CONTENT B GIVES. THE POINT IS CONTENT A TAKES 20 minutes to do while content B will take an hour. Why on earth would u do B when u can run A be done in half /a third the time with the same rewards. The answer is u wouldnt. Who actually cares that Content B will take an extra 5-10 weeks if you can go in without trouble find 9 more NPCs and afk run without communication without interaction outside the "hey" and "ty" its way mroe convenient and ppl will migrate to that due to their human nature.

 

Let me give you an example u are asking for the same pay with someone that does way more work than u but u are saying that "hey ill work (do literally nothing compaired to that other guy) for an extra 2 or 3 weeks so pay me the same"

 

The point of exclusives is to draw ppl's attention to something the devs want their players to try. Viewing it as "ill bribe u to come and play" is just bias against the content". The aim is to get ppl interested in something and then hope that they will be engaged with it and continue playing it after they got the exclusives. Litterally that applies to all parts of this mmos and its what helps the game not die.

 

Providing the same rewards elsewhere and esp in methods of aquisition that are easier only serves to piss off ppl and make them quit or migrate to that other content killing that part of the game in the proccess.

 

Lets say they do the content A and B idea u are presenting ppl will just exploit the easier content B encounters to speed up the curency farm while completing all the collections from content A. Sudenly the 5-10 weeks diff dropped to 4 and it took far less dedication in terms of interacting with other getting better at the game and gearing in a propper manner.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > You're still removing an incentive from players to play something different, which will ultimately result in them getting bored of the game faster.

>

> No, that's a faulty argument, for several reasons:

>

> 1. It's *reducing* the incentive to play different things, perhaps, but not removing it. Since "playing the right content" would be faster, there would still be *incentive* to play that mode, it just wouldn't be *required.*

 

Faster yes. Less or equally demanding? Hell no.

 

> 2. I would not oppose having one reward be buried shallowly enough in the content that anyone could get it with a few hours effort. That encourages players to at least *try* that mode and see if they like it, but then it allows them to make their own choices afterward and stay or move on.

 

No they are not trying it. They are trying a version of it. Theres no saying if someone will try content A that is notably easier than content B and gives the same rewards that they would go on to try Content B. Thats not how the world works.

 

> 3. Requiring players to play certain content does not mean they will enjoy it. A player who is doing things he does not enjoy is worse than a customer who has gotten a bit bored of something he does enjoy. This is especially true in a gem store game, since a happy customer is more likely to spend than an unhappy but grudging one.

 

If someone doesnt enjoy the content then he doesnt do said content. Theres litterally nothing in that content that will make u a better player in any shape or form. The rewards are purely cosmetic with a slight qol (if you can even call it that). But no because everyone here is entitled to everything...

(i hate wvw but i really like the mistforged armor i played wvw for abit and got tired of it, and i *decided* that the armor wasnt worth the hassle and just went and played other things in this game that i like. Oh and i bought 30 or so blc a week later coz there was some stuff i liked in it).

 

> 4. Content that isn't getting played benefits no one. In my example above, if a player hates Content A so much that he'd never do it, then it does not matter that double the time on Content B might wear it out sooner, because Content A isn't something he'd want to do regardless. It's better for him to have the *choice* of A or B, than to restrict him to one. For a player that might enjoy both, if playing double the Content B would bore them, then they can always do Content A instead. Again, choice hurts nothing.

>

Raids are played.

If i wanted to go to the bank to get money and i could either run to it and be there in 5 mins or walk to it and be there in 13 mins why would i run? Esp if im not in hurry.

 

> >Plus, you're only thinking in time-gates. Let me tell you, the time-gated provisioner tokens were by far the worst part of crafting the envoy armor. They aren't remotely fun. You can say that LIs are time-gated as well, but you spend months raiding before they become a routine time-gate. Somehow I doubt you mean your path B to feature similar skill progression.

>

> I wasn't speaking strictly of time gates, I was speaking in terms of average progression, *however* that works. It could be time gate, it could be repetitions of the event, I was just using in the example that if both A and B took *on average* one week per reward, then that would be maintained. Basically, I would not be changing that in any way. The average time per reward would be maintained, the average time to clear out the local shop would be maintained.

>

> My point is, under my proposal, it would **never take any less time doing it that way than it currently would.**

>

>

 

Ofc it would Kittening take less time. U arent considering time to find a group, make a pug or create a static, find a build u want to learn for the fight, learn it, get the gear for it then go to the boss try to kill the boss (u could wipe which would slow you down). Versus, log in lfg for easy mode get 9 more bearbow rangers and go do it in 20-30 the whole thing.

 

Hell if both you and someone who did the hard mode after ur Raids went to farm fractals until a set time u would end up with more gold farmed than him.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

>

> >> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > So are you already doing escort, trio, rainbow road, MO every week and enjoying them?

>

> Nope, because they won't get me to my goals, and are not the sort fo play experience I'm looking for.

 

You need 150 LI for legendary armor and 2k crystals for the chair. You specifically said:

 

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> The reason I don't enjoy raids is because of the difficulty of them, the significant chance of failure, the hassle of building just the right party to tackle it. An easy mode raid would remove those problems, which would make it an enjoyable activity for me. I would certainly much prefer "grinding out" the easy mode raids required to earn the gear than I would "grinding out" the gold required to buy it off raiders second hand.

>

 

You said you would enjoy easy raids. Well they are right there in the game right now, they would progress you towards a goal, and yet your not enjoying them. Are you saying even escort is not easy enough?

 

Be honest with me here, I'm not trying to judge, how many times have you done escort? Because it sounds to me like you don't have an accurate picture.

[zealex.9410]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> >

> > >> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > So are you already doing escort, trio, rainbow road, MO every week and enjoying them?

> >

> > Nope, because they won't get me to my goals, and are not the sort fo play experience I'm looking for.

>

> You need 150 LI for legendary armor and 2k crystals for the chair. You specifically said:

>

>

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > The reason I don't enjoy raids is because of the difficulty of them, the significant chance of failure, the hassle of building just the right party to tackle it. An easy mode raid would remove those problems, which would make it an enjoyable activity for me. I would certainly much prefer "grinding out" the easy mode raids required to earn the gear than I would "grinding out" the gold required to buy it off raiders second hand.

> >

>

> You said you would enjoy easy raids. Well they are right there in the game right now, they would progress you towards a goal, and yet your not enjoying them. Are you saying even escort is not easy enough?

>

> Be honest with me here, I'm not trying to judge, how many times have you done escort? Because it sounds to me like you don't have an accurate picture.

 

On a diff note, saying that escort isnt easy enough is scary :/

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> On a diff note, saying that escort isnt easy enough is scary :/

Oh, i don't know. We certainly fail escort more often than VG or Gorse :P

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Lets say they do the content A and B idea u are presenting ppl will just exploit the easier content B encounters to speed up the curency farm while completing all the collections from content A. Sudenly the 5-10 weeks diff dropped to 4 and it took far less dedication in terms of interacting with other getting better at the game and gearing in a propper manner.

There are ways to manage it. You can timecap it, you can make the both ways not really compatible, making it harder to mix and match. In case of multiple difficulty modes you can also limit the rewards to one per encounter (regardless of mode), or make the higher mode rewards automatically include the lower mode ones (and balance the costs/requirement accordingly).

For example, Fractals having 4 tiers do not make anything faster, because the t4 daily rewards are balanced around the assumption of obtaining also the lower tier ones.

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > On a diff note, saying that escort isnt easy enough is scary :/

> Oh, i don't know. We certainly fail escort more often than VG or Gorse :P

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Lets say they do the content A and B idea u are presenting ppl will just exploit the easier content B encounters to speed up the curency farm while completing all the collections from content A. Sudenly the 5-10 weeks diff dropped to 4 and it took far less dedication in terms of interacting with other getting better at the game and gearing in a propper manner.

> There are ways to manage it. You can timecap it, you can make the both ways not really compatible, making it harder to mix and match. In case of multiple difficulty modes you can also limit the rewards to one per encounter (regardless of mode), or make the higher mode rewards automatically include the lower mode ones (and balance the costs/requirement accordingly).

> For example, Fractals having 4 tiers do not make anything faster, because the t4 daily rewards are balanced around the assumption of obtaining also the lower tier ones.

>

 

Yeah because t4 is the most rewarding.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

>Good content and good rewards go hand to hand. Stuff like "such good content it doesnt need great rewards" doesnt exist. And its not "hey devs bribe me to continue doing this content" its "hey devs this is getting old give me new content with new shinies to do".

 

Again, nothing I'm suggesting would change any of that. What works would continue working, what doesn't work would either be improved or stay the same. No negative change.

 

>Why if i was tired of running the same dungeons would i go to open world? Open world is complete garbage and a bore fest after 2 or 3 times.

 

/sigh. **it was an example.** The example obviously wouldn't necessarily apply to you personally. You were saying that when people get bored of a certain type of content, they do something else instead. This is true. If you are playing one type of content and some other type of content seems more appealing *to you,* then go off and do it. Nobody's stopping you, and nobody has any interest in keeping you doing content that is boring you. There is no reason for ANet to bribe you to keep playing the boring content for exclusive reward when instead you could be chasing those rewards in content *you* find more fun to play, *regardless of what that content might be.*

 

>THE POINT ISNT THAT CONTENT A GIVES THE REWARDS THAT CONTENT B GIVES. THE POINT IS CONTENT A TAKES 20 minutes to do while content B will take an hour.

 

In that case though they wouldn't offer identical rewards. Not in terms of quantity. In my example, they were taking equivalent time and effort. In your example, they are not, so the scale of reward would change. To use *your* example, if Content A takes 20 minutes and Content B takes an hour, then Content A would take at least three times as many repetitions to achieve the same exotic rewards as Content B would, so if it would take a dozen repetitions of Content B to get the reward, then it would take 36 repetitions of Content A to get the reward. Likely with a little extra on top.

 

>Why on earth would u do B when u can run A be done in half /a third the time with the same rewards.

 

You wouldn't, and nobody is saying that you should.

 

>Who actually cares that Content B will take an extra 5-10 weeks if you can go in without trouble find 9 more NPCs and afk run without communication without interaction outside the "hey" and "ty" its way mroe convenient and ppl will migrate to that due to their human nature.

 

Then that's their choice. Some people enjoy hardcore raiding, some don;'t. If your argument is that nobody would raid if they were given any other option, then that's just a reason to not have raids at all.

 

>The point of exclusives is to draw ppl's attention to something the devs want their players to try.

 

We've addressed this. It is not.

 

If the developers want to have an exclusive item that is quick and easy for anyone to get from the activity, that is fine. That is an item that will attract people to show up and **try** the event. But once they have tried it, the devs should **respect their choices,** and no longer hold them hostage to the event if they want to get the cool rewards. If a player shows up to a piece of content, spends a couple hours doing it, and decides that it's just not his style, there is no benefit to him, and certainly no benefit to ANet for him to just keep doing it anyway because he wants the unique loot. It is better for **everyone** involved if he just gets out of there and goes to something he finds more entertaining.

 

So sure, have unique rewards that can he earned quickly and easily by everyone, those can be used to draw people in, but anything that takes serious amounts of time and effort should have alternatives, so that if a player gives Content A a try, and realizes that it's definitely not for him, he isn't stuck doing Content A for months anyway, he can go off and do Content B instead and still get that cool thing he wanted.

 

>The aim is to get ppl interested in something and then hope that they will be engaged with it and continue playing it after they got the exclusives.

 

But, what if they *aren't* engaged, but still want to get the exclusives? How does that story end happily in your world?

 

>If someone doesnt enjoy the content then he doesnt do said content. Theres litterally nothing in that content that will make u a better player in any shape or form. The rewards are purely cosmetic with a slight qol (if you can even call it that).

 

This is a silly argument. On the one hand you're arguing that rewards MUST remain exclusive to certain content because they are such an important drive for players, and then on the other hand you're saying "well, if they don't get that reward it's no big deal, it's just cosmetic." Which is it? Are the rewards important enough to care about or not important enough to care about?

 

>i hate wvw but i really like the mistforged armor i played wvw for abit and got tired of it, and i decided that the armor wasnt worth the hassle and just went and played other things in this game that i like.

 

Ok, but wouldn't you have been happier if there had been some way that you could do content you *do* enjoy, like raids, and earned that armor that way?

 

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> You need 150 LI for legendary armor and 2k crystals for the chair. You specifically said:

 

But you also need to complete all the bosses to get the armor. If I accumulated 500LI but didn't have the boss clears necessary then I still wouldn't be any closer to having Legendary Armor.

 

>You said you would enjoy easy raids. Well they are right there in the game right now, they would progress you towards a goal, and yet your not enjoying them. Are you saying even escort is not easy enough?

 

I said I wanted easier versions of the ENTIRE raids, not that I was looking for random portions in the middle of a raid that are easier than others.

 

>Be honest with me here, I'm not trying to judge, how many times have you done escort? Because it sounds to me like you don't have an accurate picture.

 

None, and that isn't relevant to the point I'm making.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > On a diff note, saying that escort isnt easy enough is scary :/

> > Oh, i don't know. We certainly fail escort more often than VG or Gorse :P

> >

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > Lets say they do the content A and B idea u are presenting ppl will just exploit the easier content B encounters to speed up the curency farm while completing all the collections from content A. Sudenly the 5-10 weeks diff dropped to 4 and it took far less dedication in terms of interacting with other getting better at the game and gearing in a propper manner.

> > There are ways to manage it. You can timecap it, you can make the both ways not really compatible, making it harder to mix and match. In case of multiple difficulty modes you can also limit the rewards to one per encounter (regardless of mode), or make the higher mode rewards automatically include the lower mode ones (and balance the costs/requirement accordingly).

> > For example, Fractals having 4 tiers do not make anything faster, because the t4 daily rewards are balanced around the assumption of obtaining also the lower tier ones.

> >

>

> Yeah because t4 is the most rewarding.

You completely missed the point, did you?

 

Let me clarify - existence of lower tiers of fractals does not make getting fractal rewards faster, due to the reward structure for the daily tier rewards. Namely, because the t4 rewards are balanced around the assumption that you will be getting 4 reward chests, not one.

So, people are _not_ exploiting the existence of the lower difficult tiers to get to the rewards faster, because the reward system is done in such a way that it's simply not possible.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

>

> >You said you would enjoy easy raids. Well they are right there in the game right now, they would progress you towards a goal, and yet your not enjoying them. Are you saying even escort is not easy enough?

>

> I said I wanted easier versions of the ENTIRE raids, not that I was looking for random portions in the middle of a raid that are easier than others.

>

> >Be honest with me here, I'm not trying to judge, how many times have you done escort? Because it sounds to me like you don't have an accurate picture.

>

> None, and that isn't relevant to the point I'm making.

>

 

Ok, well it was interesting talking to you, but I'm going to stop replying now. The ideas you've spent 8 pages fighting for on this forum, are in practice in game right now. The fact that you don't see the relevance of testing and experiencing those ideas first hand is completely baffling. But it tells me what I need to know, that you choose to form your opinion from a position of complete ignorance. That behavior doesn't deserve to be taken seriously, and I won't give it a platform by responding to it any further.

 

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> >

> > >You said you would enjoy easy raids. Well they are right there in the game right now, they would progress you towards a goal, and yet your not enjoying them. Are you saying even escort is not easy enough?

> >

> > I said I wanted easier versions of the ENTIRE raids, not that I was looking for random portions in the middle of a raid that are easier than others.

> >

> > >Be honest with me here, I'm not trying to judge, how many times have you done escort? Because it sounds to me like you don't have an accurate picture.

> >

> > None, and that isn't relevant to the point I'm making.

> >

>

> Ok, well it was interesting talking to you, but I'm going to stop replying now. The ideas you've spent 8 pages fighting for on this forum, are in practice in game right now.

 

See, if you believe that, then you were never talking with me, but only talking *at* me, trying to insist that I accept your view of the situation, rather than genuinely considering mine, which I've been more than clear about presenting.

 

 

 

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > >

> > > >You said you would enjoy easy raids. Well they are right there in the game right now, they would progress you towards a goal, and yet your not enjoying them. Are you saying even escort is not easy enough?

> > >

> > > I said I wanted easier versions of the ENTIRE raids, not that I was looking for random portions in the middle of a raid that are easier than others.

> > >

> > > >Be honest with me here, I'm not trying to judge, how many times have you done escort? Because it sounds to me like you don't have an accurate picture.

> > >

> > > None, and that isn't relevant to the point I'm making.

> > >

> >

> > Ok, well it was interesting talking to you, but I'm going to stop replying now. The ideas you've spent 8 pages fighting for on this forum, are in practice in game right now.

>

> See, if you believe that, then you were never talking with me, but only talking *at* me, trying to insist that I accept your view of the situation, rather than genuinely considering mine, which I've been more than clear about presenting.

>

 

There is at least parts in the game that offer alternative routes to the same rewards. Simply claiming someone didnt understand the idea because they didnt agree is just petty.

 

How fun a game is, is not limited to just content but also how you get rewards. And also entirely subjective. One person likes unique rewards for specific tasks and another want rewards to be available through whichever content is fun.

There's no one way that will make the game better for everyone.

 

Plus if rewards are a bribe to play the game, that has very little to do whether the content needs some sort of fix because its not fun. In fact the only thing youre arguing for is that a reward "bribing" to play different content is worse than rewards "bribing" you to play content way beyond its expiration date. And that is subjective. Some like to be challenged to do new things whilst others like to be challenged how long they can keep playing the same thing over and over.

 

GW2 uses a combination of things to cover the biggest audience. Altering this into something where one motivation is taken away in favor of the other just alienates players from the game.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> There is at least parts in the game that offer alternative routes to the same rewards. Simply claiming someone didnt understand the idea because they didnt agree is just petty.

 

Again, I'm not asking that he agree. I'm just pointing out that his statement did not accurately respond to my own, they seemed to be addressing a separate point that I was not making. I never made the case that there are no raid encounters that are easier than others. That fact would be completely irrelevant to the point I was making, which was that *all* raid encounters should be available in an easier form.

 

And no, there are not "at least parts in the game that offer alternative routes to the same rewards," because completing the easier raid encounters alone do not put me on the path to completing envoy armor, as I addressed above.

 

>How fun a game is, is not limited to just content but also how you get rewards. And also entirely subjective. One person likes unique rewards for specific tasks and another want rewards to be available through whichever content is fun.

 

When in doubt, err on the side that benefits the most. If there are rewards exclusive to Content A and B, and one player can be happy with the rewards from both being available to everyone, and another person can only be happy if rewards are walled off from the first player, then too bad for that second player, I guess.

 

>Plus if rewards are a bribe to play the game, that has very little to do whether the content needs some sort of fix because its not fun. In fact the only thing youre arguing for is that a reward "bribing" to play different content is worse than rewards "bribing" you to play content way beyond its expiration date.

 

I'm saying that the argument that "they can't allow you to get the rewards in other content because then nobody would play this content" is irrational. If players would play different content if they could get the rewards there instead, then they *should* be playing that other content, and nobody would benefit from them continuing to play the first type of content.

 

Ever.

 

>Some like to be challenged to do new things whilst others like to be challenged how long they can keep playing the same thing over and over.

 

And that's fine, both can continue to do that, completely unaltered by my proposal.

 

>GW2 uses a combination of things to cover the biggest audience. Altering this into something where one motivation is taken away in favor of the other just alienates players from the game.

 

That argument can't apply where multiple rewards are involved, because "you can have these rewards, but not these other rewards" is not a satisfactory response when you don't care about the rewards offered, and want the rewards withheld. If you can come up with a way to *genuinely* satisfy players who want Envoy armor but never want to hard mode raid or buy raid runs, then I'm all ears, but until then, you aren't selling anything I'm interested in buying.

[yann.1946]

@"Ohoni.6057"

Would you then be happy if everything could be sold and bought trough the tradingpost?