Miellyn.6847 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > >Time gates are universally hated. Really bad idea. > > It really does depend on the context. Absolute time gates can be kind of lame, but I think players would understand them in this context, don't you? Like say you're a raider, hate PvP, but really want the Ascension (none of that may actually apply to you, but TRY to pretend that it's all true, substitute whichever examples you need). Which situation would you prefer, A. You could NEVER have the Ascension without doing PvP, OR B. you could have it, but not until 3-6 months after it completely unlocked in PvP, and it would cost you the better part of a year's worth of accumulated raiding currencies. A, or B, if you genuinely felt that way, which outcome do you believe would lead you to be happiest? > > >Currencies won't work with the same reward. If you award a new currency each season either reward all previous currencies too or the old ones become obsolvete, bloating the system and confusing players when you can buy the same item for 4 different currencies. > > Allow for down-conversion too. As an example, if the s3 currencies are no longer available, but the s4 are, then a player with 5000 s3 currencies could convert those into maybe 1250 s4 currency, and get a head start on the new stuff. Meanwhile, a new player who's been farming s4 but really likes the s3 stuff, could likewise trade his 1000 s4 currency for 1000 s3 currency. I think that would adequately serve both groups, and again, it would actually work better than existing systems in a lot of ways. Much more flexible. > > >If you have enough you just buy it at release date for a bit higher price. > > True, but that means you'd have to be grinding very hard at the old stuff to have such a significant stockpile, and you'd want to keep grinding the new stuff to have a similar stockpile when the next season rolls around. It would really add a push-pull to the "content whales," because they would be able to show off all the cool new stuff on day one, while the more casual players would still be able to collect it before the next season rolls around. > > Also keep in mind that the available reward pool would be MUCH larger than is currently available. You talk about the raid wing currencies, and how people have enough wing 1-4 currencies that they could rush the wing 5 rewards (without minding that they were able to rush the wing 4 rewards already, apparently), but remember that in this system, not only could their raid 1-4 currencies buy them the existing raid items, but they could also be buying various open world, Fractal, PvP, WvW, etc. items, and at a premium over what they'd be in their home locations, so chances are that most players would have plenty of things they would want to buy with what currencies they were able to acquire. I don't think there would be huge surpluses over the current situation, in fact it's likely that players would have much less spare currency than they do now. People will just cry why others get the shinies earlier. Time gates are hated in every shape and form and reason. Most people only desire a very small subset of the rewards. It won't work. People just buy things they want with their old currency, get bored and leave. Raid rewards also need a boss kill to unlock them, thats sort of an additional gate that prevents fast devaluation. The currency just accumulates while playing. You don't have to do anything. Either the prices are incredible high (against the casual playstyle) or the conversion is so bad it gets pointless. Best solution for longterm motivation are unique rewards per game mode and some sort of new material to aquire things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 U keep saying the reward pool will be much bigger. But i only see already existing stuff being suffled around the place. If i down the line say with your system in place have all the stuff from pvp through pve then whats there to incentivise me to touch pvp in the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 12, 2018 Author Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: >For example everyone would hate locking stuff only to a small part of the game if they have insane value. But that ship has long since sailed. That's the situation we already have, I'm just talking about *opening up* the existing systems. > @"Miellyn.6847" said: >People will just cry why others get the shinies earlier. Time gates are hated in every shape and form and reason. Maybe some would, but they would have less of a leg to stand on than under the current system. In the current system there are an equal amount of time gates, the only difference is that instead of being set for "six months," they are set for "infinite." >Most people only desire a very small subset of the rewards. It won't work. People just buy things they want with their old currency, get bored and leave. Again, that may entirely be true, but this would in no way make things worse. If they would reach that state under the new system, then they would also reach that state under the existing system, only *faster,* because they would have fewer things available to buy. >Raid rewards also need a boss kill to unlock them, thats sort of an additional gate that prevents fast devaluation. Not really. There's yet to be a raid boss that's taken more time to kill than the sort of time gates I've been talking about. >The currency just accumulates while playing. You don't have to do anything. Either the prices are incredible high (against the casual playstyle) or the conversion is so bad it gets pointless. Depends on how easily it accumulates. I would expect the currencies that do "just pile up casually" would be coppers on the gold when compared to ones that take significant effort. They would hardly be an efficient way to spend your time in game, but if you do enjoy those game modes, you could at least *progress* toward the rewards that interest you. >Best solution for longterm motivation are unique rewards per game mode and some sort of new material to aquire things. But again, in such a system it leaves out players who have no interest in that game mode, and you've provided no way to reconcile that. > @"zealex.9410" said: >U keep saying the reward pool will be much bigger. But i only see alreqdy existing stuff being suffled around the place. That's my point. There are very few players in the current game who have the time to do ALL the things, to acquire every possible reward. And for those players, in the new system, they would be no worse off, they would still be doing all the things and getting all the rewards, no change. For everyone else, they only have time to do some of the things, to maybe raid and do some map clearing, or PvP and some WvW, or run some fractals and some events, etc. Whatever they are doing, they might be able to gain enough currency to clear out their local shop, and in the current system, once they do, that's it, they have nothing worth doing with that currency beyond just dumping it into material bags or something. In the proposed system, once they reach that point they can still convert their currencies into some other store, and start buying other items, at a lossy rate. I seriously doubt that most players would come even close to being able to get all the available items, especially if they were sticking to a single gameplay mode, but this *would* allow them access to the stuff that really appealed to them. >If i down the lime say with your aystem in place have all the stuff from pvp through pve then whats there to incentivise me to touch pvp in the future? If you've been playing the game long enough to have purchased all the PvP rewards via PvE, then chances are you'd never bother with PvP in the first place. The more likely answer is that once you'd maxed out the PvE rewards, if you had any interest at all in PvP, then you would have given it a shot then, if not sooner, because PvP would always be the fastest and cheapest way to acquire those rewards. It's like asking "If I can take the bus to New York, and then walk to New Jersey, then why would I ever take the bus to New Jersey?" Also, on top of that, they would at some point add new PvP rewards, which would require the next tier of currency, and would have a time gate to them outside of PvP. There would be plenty of reasons to *start* playing PvP if you have even the most remote interest in doing so. The only thing that would change is that if you HATE PvP, you'd never *have* to do it and could still earn all the rewards eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 A skin in my view doesnt have insane value. And doesnt need a system rework for the same of being available elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 12, 2018 Author Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > A skin in my view doesnt have insane value. And doesnt need a system rework for the same of being available elsewhere. That's subjective, others disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > >For example everyone would hate locking stuff only to a small part of the game if they have insane value. > > But that ship has long since sailed. That's the situation we already have, I'm just talking about *opening up* the existing systems. > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > >People will just cry why others get the shinies earlier. Time gates are hated in every shape and form and reason. > > Maybe some would, but they would have less of a leg to stand on than under the current system. In the current system there are an equal amount of time gates, the only difference is that instead of being set for "six months," they are set for "infinite." > > >Most people only desire a very small subset of the rewards. It won't work. People just buy things they want with their old currency, get bored and leave. > > Again, that may entirely be true, but this would in no way make things worse. If they would reach that state under the new system, then they would also reach that state under the existing system, only *faster,* because they would have fewer things available to buy. > > >Raid rewards also need a boss kill to unlock them, thats sort of an additional gate that prevents fast devaluation. > > Not really. There's yet to be a raid boss that's taken more time to kill than the sort of time gates I've been talking about. > > >The currency just accumulates while playing. You don't have to do anything. Either the prices are incredible high (against the casual playstyle) or the conversion is so bad it gets pointless. > > Depends on how easily it accumulates. I would expect the currencies that do "just pile up casually" would be coppers on the gold when compared to ones that take significant effort. They would hardly be an efficient way to spend your time in game, but if you do enjoy those game modes, you could at least *progress* toward the rewards that interest you. > > >Best solution for longterm motivation are unique rewards per game mode and some sort of new material to aquire things. > > But again, in such a system it leaves out players who have no interest in that game mode, and you've provided no way to reconcile that. > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > >U keep saying the reward pool will be much bigger. But i only see alreqdy existing stuff being suffled around the place. > > That's my point. There are very few players in the current game who have the time to do ALL the things, to acquire every possible reward. And for those players, in the new system, they would be no worse off, they would still be doing all the things and getting all the rewards, no change. For everyone else, they only have time to do some of the things, to maybe raid and do some map clearing, or PvP and some WvW, or run some fractals and some events, etc. Whatever they are doing, they might be able to gain enough currency to clear out their local shop, and in the current system, once they do, that's it, they have nothing worth doing with that currency beyond just dumping it into material bags or something. In the proposed system, once they reach that point they can still convert their currencies into some other store, and start buying other items, at a lossy rate. I seriously doubt that most players would come even close to being able to get all the available items, especially if they were sticking to a single gameplay mode, but this *would* allow them access to the stuff that really appealed to them. > > >If i down the lime say with your aystem in place have all the stuff from pvp through pve then whats there to incentivise me to touch pvp in the future? > > If you've been playing the game long enough to have purchased all the PvP rewards via PvE, then chances are you'd never bother with PvP in the first place. The more likely answer is that once you'd maxed out the PvE rewards, if you had any interest at all in PvP, then you would have given it a shot then, if not sooner, because PvP would always be the fastest and cheapest way to acquire those rewards. It's like asking "If I can take the bus to New York, and then walk to New Jersey, then why would I ever take the bus to New Jersey?" Also, on top of that, they would at some point add new PvP rewards, which would require the next tier of currency, and would have a time gate to them outside of PvP. There would be plenty of reasons to *start* playing PvP if you have even the most remote interest in doing so. The only thing that would change is that if you HATE PvP, you'd never *have* to do it and could still earn all the rewards eventually. U seem to be oblivious to what an incentive is. IF. EVERYTHING I WANT. IS AVAILABLE IN FRONT OF ME. WHY WOULD I IGNORE IT AND GO TRY SOMETHING ELSE I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT. Even if i ended up liking it i wouldnt know because everything is on hand's reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > A skin in my view doesnt have insane value. And doesnt need a system rework for the same of being available elsewhere. > > That's subjective, others disagree. Your view on what is apropriate is also subjective and other disagree with that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > The "that depends on the context" arguement can go both ways. For example everyone would hate locking stuff only to a small part of the game if they have insane value. Like a tool to make insane amounts of gold or a type of legendary gear. But they would be ok if it was anything as simple as a skin. Yes, the scale of what is locked is also important. For example, i'd like for the Dhuum scythe to not be locked behind killing him in a raid instance (as it is currently the best looking scythe skin in the game to me), but i'm not really spending my energy on arguing for making it more widely available. I am arguing about legendary armor, because i consider it a much more serious case. I am also arguing about the raid-locked legendary ring, but i might let it slide in the long run, if there will be more (at least two more) available options in the future. So, the gradation does exist. > @"zealex.9410" said: > U keep saying the reward pool will be much bigger. But i only see already existing stuff being suffled around the place. If i down the line say with your system in place have all the stuff from pvp through pve then whats there to incentivise me to touch pvp in the future? If you haven't touched it yet, you never will anyway, but purely hypothetically, the incentive would be that some of the rewards would be more easily available through that method, and you'd have to spend more effort/time if you wanted to get them in any other way. > @"zealex.9410" said: > A skin in my view doesnt have insane value. And doesnt need a system rework for the same of being available elsewhere. Well, that depends on a skin. Some are valued more than others. > @"zealex.9410" said: > U seem to be oblivious to what an incentive is. IF. EVERYTHING I WANT. IS AVAILABLE IN FRONT OF ME. WHY WOULD I IGNORE IT AND GO TRY SOMETHING ELSE I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT. Why would you craft gen1 precursors if buying them off TP requires far less effort (and is often cheaper)? And yet a lot of people do exactly that. People (thankfully) are not machines that always follow the most effective way. Quite often their emotions do end up steering them in other directions even if it doesn't seem logical. So i don't know what you might do, and why. You might go for it because you'd think it'd be faster that way. You might go for it for variety, because you don't like sticking in a single type of content. You might just get bored with the gamemode you played in up to that point. Or you might not take the hook and stay where you were. Who knows? The same would happen with other people, but their "origin" gamemodes would be different, and sometimes the incentives would be in yours. In the end it would even out, except there would be more choice all around. > @"zealex.9410" said: > Even if i ended up liking it i wouldnt know because everything is on hand's reach. quite often you'd find that your hands are much shorter than that, and you'd still need to walk that mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > The "that depends on the context" arguement can go both ways. For example everyone would hate locking stuff only to a small part of the game if they have insane value. Like a tool to make insane amounts of gold or a type of legendary gear. But they would be ok if it was anything as simple as a skin. > Yes, the scale of what is locked is also important. For example, i'd like for the Dhuum scythe to not be locked behind killing him in a raid instance (as it is currently the best looking scythe skin in the game to me), but i'm not really spending my energy on arguing for making it more widely available. I am arguing about legendary armor, because i consider it a much more serious case. I am also arguing about the raid-locked legendary ring, but i might let it slide in the long run, if there will be more (at least two more) available options in the future. So, the gradation does exist. Legendary armor is not locked behind raids tho this specific one is. And again I wouldnt care if fractals or w/e got their legendary armor as well as long as this one the envoy one is raid exclusive. I dont think u can make also the same arguement for trinkets. Because you are boumd to get at least 1 ring from doing somethong outside the raid so you are not "locked" behind it. > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > U keep saying the reward pool will be much bigger. But i only see already existing stuff being suffled around the place. If i down the line say with your system in place have all the stuff from pvp through pve then whats there to incentivise me to touch pvp in the future? > If you haven't touched it yet, you never will anyway, but purely hypothetically, the incentive would be that some of the rewards would be more easily available through that method, and you'd have to spend more effort/time if you wanted to get them in any other way. > Not that short that Pve would be more of a jump for me than pvp. And anyways i tried pvp a tiny bit when i bought the game then i tried again with chrono when they added ascention. They were lreally diff experiences. > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > A skin in my view doesnt have insane value. And doesnt need a system rework for the same of being available elsewhere. > Well, that depends on a skin. Some are valued more than others. > Still its a skin its more tied to the content than a utility. U made a example with the Dhuum scythe, it wouldnt make sense to get the scythe else where other than raids and when new players come i to the game and see tje same rewards for diff things they gonna assume that the developers are lazy. > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > U seem to be oblivious to what an incentive is. IF. EVERYTHING I WANT. IS AVAILABLE IN FRONT OF ME. WHY WOULD I IGNORE IT AND GO TRY SOMETHING ELSE I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT. > Why would you craft gen1 precursors if buying them off TP requires far less effort (and is often cheaper)? And yet a lot of people do exactly that. People (thankfully) are not machines that always follow the most effective way. Quite often their emotions do end up steering them in other directions even if it doesn't seem logical. > > So i don't know what you might do, and why. You might go for it because you'd think it'd be faster that way. You might go for it for variety, because you don't like sticking in a single type of content. You might just get bored with the gamemode you played in up to that point. Or you might not take the hook and stay where you were. Who knows? > The same would happen with other people, but their "origin" gamemodes would be different, and sometimes the incentives would be in yours. In the end it would even out, except there would be more choice all around. > Being new into the game and seeing the legendaries id assume the intented way is the crafting way. The more experienced u become in a subject the better choices u can make. Most ppl will go with efficiency in mind. If 1 weapon is generally far easier to get in 1 way than the other the majority will go for that way. There are cases when ppl say "fuck it" and do whatever but these are the minority imho and theh shouldnt be viewed as the core demographoc when designing content. > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > Even if i ended up liking it i wouldnt know because everything is on hand's reach. > quite often you'd find that your hands are much shorter than that, and you'd still need to walk that mile. > > > > > > > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 12, 2018 Author Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > U seem to be oblivious to what an incentive is. IF. EVERYTHING I WANT. IS AVAILABLE IN FRONT OF ME. WHY WOULD I IGNORE IT AND GO TRY SOMETHING ELSE I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT. > > Even if i ended up liking it i wouldnt know because everything is on hand's reach. We discussed earlier that I **do** believe there is a place for a *small* number of exclusive rewards that can be acquired relatively quickly and easily. These would serve the exact function you are discussing, they would force players to at least *try* a mode that might be new to them, but at the same time they would respect that once the player *has* tried it, they should be free to decide for themselves whether they want to *continue* in that mode, without consequences. Problem solved. > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > A skin in my view doesnt have insane value. And doesnt need a system rework for the same of being available elsewhere. > > > > That's subjective, others disagree. > > Your view on what is apropriate is also subjective and other disagree with that as well. Agreed, which is why we go with the most open version of the system, so that the largest number of players can benefit. >Still its a skin its more tied to the content than a utility. U made a example with the Dhuum scythe, it wouldnt make sense to get the scythe else where other than raids and when new players come i to the game and see tje same rewards for diff things they gonna assume that the developers are lazy. That's complete nonsense. There are hundreds of skins in the game that have no thematic connection to the place you find them. I mean, everything on the Gem Store, as the most obvious example. WvW and PvP reward tracks too. Why does a White Mantle themed raid drop Cantha themed Legendary armor? Nobody knows! There's absolutely no reason why the current raid-exclusive rewards could not be found elsewhere in the game from a thematic standpoint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > U seem to be oblivious to what an incentive is. IF. EVERYTHING I WANT. IS AVAILABLE IN FRONT OF ME. WHY WOULD I IGNORE IT AND GO TRY SOMETHING ELSE I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT. > > > > Even if i ended up liking it i wouldnt know because everything is on hand's reach. > > We discussed earlier that I **do** believe there is a place for a *small* number of exclusive rewards that can be acquired relatively quickly and easily. These would serve the exact function you are discussing, they would force players to at least *try* a mode that might be new to them, but at the same time they would respect that once the player *has* tried it, they should be free to decide for themselves whether they want to *continue* in that mode, without consequences. > > Problem solved. > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > A skin in my view doesnt have insane value. And doesnt need a system rework for the same of being available elsewhere. > > > > > > That's subjective, others disagree. > > > > Your view on what is apropriate is also subjective and other disagree with that as well. > > Agreed, which is why we go with the most open version of the system, so that the largest number of players can benefit. > > >Still its a skin its more tied to the content than a utility. U made a example with the Dhuum scythe, it wouldnt make sense to get the scythe else where other than raids and when new players come i to the game and see tje same rewards for diff things they gonna assume that the developers are lazy. > > That's complete nonsense. There are hundreds of skins in the game that have no thematic connection to the place you find them. I mean, everything on the Gem Store, as the most obvious example. WvW and PvP reward tracks too. Why does a White Mantle themed raid drop Cantha themed Legendary armor? Nobody knows! There's absolutely no reason why the current raid-exclusive rewards could not be found elsewhere in the game from a thematic standpoint. The raid armor is not Cantha themed. It is called envoy armor because you actually take the task of the envoys and guide Saul into the mists. The theme is perfectly fine for the raid and the story behind it. The appearence has nothing to do with Cantha. There are very little skins that don't make sense in the content they appear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 12, 2018 Author Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > U seem to be oblivious to what an incentive is. IF. EVERYTHING I WANT. IS AVAILABLE IN FRONT OF ME. WHY WOULD I IGNORE IT AND GO TRY SOMETHING ELSE I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT. > > > > > > Even if i ended up liking it i wouldnt know because everything is on hand's reach. > > > > We discussed earlier that I **do** believe there is a place for a *small* number of exclusive rewards that can be acquired relatively quickly and easily. These would serve the exact function you are discussing, they would force players to at least *try* a mode that might be new to them, but at the same time they would respect that once the player *has* tried it, they should be free to decide for themselves whether they want to *continue* in that mode, without consequences. > > > > Problem solved. > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > A skin in my view doesnt have insane value. And doesnt need a system rework for the same of being available elsewhere. > > > > > > > > That's subjective, others disagree. > > > > > > Your view on what is apropriate is also subjective and other disagree with that as well. > > > > Agreed, which is why we go with the most open version of the system, so that the largest number of players can benefit. > > > > >Still its a skin its more tied to the content than a utility. U made a example with the Dhuum scythe, it wouldnt make sense to get the scythe else where other than raids and when new players come i to the game and see tje same rewards for diff things they gonna assume that the developers are lazy. > > > > That's complete nonsense. There are hundreds of skins in the game that have no thematic connection to the place you find them. I mean, everything on the Gem Store, as the most obvious example. WvW and PvP reward tracks too. Why does a White Mantle themed raid drop Cantha themed Legendary armor? Nobody knows! There's absolutely no reason why the current raid-exclusive rewards could not be found elsewhere in the game from a thematic standpoint. > > The raid armor is not Cantha themed. It is called envoy armor because you actually take the task of the envoys and guide Saul into the mists. The theme is perfectly fine for the raid and the story behind it. The appearence has nothing to do with Cantha. There are very little skins that don't make sense in the content they appear. Oh, what about the PvP reward tracks? What about the Music Sheet Glider? What about the numerous exotic weapon skins that could just be found in random Champ bags? What about the many Legendary weapons that thematically are one of a kind, and yet you can find dozens of them on the TP because the precursors dropped off moas? I think that having a thematic *home* for a skin can be a lot of fun, but I don't think that theme should hold the skin hostage for all time. Sure, give it a "place" in the world, but also allow players to find it elsewhere if they prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > U seem to be oblivious to what an incentive is. IF. EVERYTHING I WANT. IS AVAILABLE IN FRONT OF ME. WHY WOULD I IGNORE IT AND GO TRY SOMETHING ELSE I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT. > > > > > > > > Even if i ended up liking it i wouldnt know because everything is on hand's reach. > > > > > > We discussed earlier that I **do** believe there is a place for a *small* number of exclusive rewards that can be acquired relatively quickly and easily. These would serve the exact function you are discussing, they would force players to at least *try* a mode that might be new to them, but at the same time they would respect that once the player *has* tried it, they should be free to decide for themselves whether they want to *continue* in that mode, without consequences. > > > > > > Problem solved. > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > A skin in my view doesnt have insane value. And doesnt need a system rework for the same of being available elsewhere. > > > > > > > > > > That's subjective, others disagree. > > > > > > > > Your view on what is apropriate is also subjective and other disagree with that as well. > > > > > > Agreed, which is why we go with the most open version of the system, so that the largest number of players can benefit. > > > > > > >Still its a skin its more tied to the content than a utility. U made a example with the Dhuum scythe, it wouldnt make sense to get the scythe else where other than raids and when new players come i to the game and see tje same rewards for diff things they gonna assume that the developers are lazy. > > > > > > That's complete nonsense. There are hundreds of skins in the game that have no thematic connection to the place you find them. I mean, everything on the Gem Store, as the most obvious example. WvW and PvP reward tracks too. Why does a White Mantle themed raid drop Cantha themed Legendary armor? Nobody knows! There's absolutely no reason why the current raid-exclusive rewards could not be found elsewhere in the game from a thematic standpoint. > > > > The raid armor is not Cantha themed. It is called envoy armor because you actually take the task of the envoys and guide Saul into the mists. The theme is perfectly fine for the raid and the story behind it. The appearence has nothing to do with Cantha. There are very little skins that don't make sense in the content they appear. > > Oh, what about the PvP reward tracks? What about the Music Sheet Glider? What about the numerous exotic weapon skins that could just be found in random Champ bags? What about the many Legendary weapons that thematically are one of a kind, and yet you can find dozens of them on the TP because the precursors dropped off moas? > > I think that having a thematic *home* for a skin can be a lot of fun, but I don't think that theme should hold the skin hostage for all time. Sure, give it a "place" in the world, but also allow players to find it elsewhere if they prefer. They are irrelevant to the discussion ^^ And no if a skin has a theme it should go with that theme. Why would i for example be able ti craft cof armor from arah? How would that make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 12, 2018 Author Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > They are irrelevant to the discussion ^^ And no if a skin has a theme it should go with that theme. I don't see how. The point that was being made was that the raid skins were somehow irrevocably linked to the raids themselves, and therefore inseparable from completing the raid content. I gave numerous examples of places in the GW2 content in which items had a definite thematic tie to *something,* and yet were still made available through a method that had nothing to do with that thematic tie. >Why would i for example be able ti craft cof armor from arah? How would that make sense? Or get it from doing PvP, or WvW. . . If they wanted to allow players to earn dungeon armor from other PvE sources, it wouldn't be at all hard to justify. The CoF armor would clearly come from CoF, but how do you get it in the first place? You trade a pile of tokens in to some guy who never leaves Lion's Arch. Where did *he* get the armor? Given that, I see no reason why he couldn't also accept different tokens for the same merchandise. He might require *more* of the other type of tokens, but he could make that path available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > U seem to be oblivious to what an incentive is. IF. EVERYTHING I WANT. IS AVAILABLE IN FRONT OF ME. WHY WOULD I IGNORE IT AND GO TRY SOMETHING ELSE I DONT KNOW MUCH ABOUT. > > > > > > > > Even if i ended up liking it i wouldnt know because everything is on hand's reach. > > > > > > We discussed earlier that I **do** believe there is a place for a *small* number of exclusive rewards that can be acquired relatively quickly and easily. These would serve the exact function you are discussing, they would force players to at least *try* a mode that might be new to them, but at the same time they would respect that once the player *has* tried it, they should be free to decide for themselves whether they want to *continue* in that mode, without consequences. > > > > > > Problem solved. > > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > > > > A skin in my view doesnt have insane value. And doesnt need a system rework for the same of being available elsewhere. > > > > > > > > > > That's subjective, others disagree. > > > > > > > > Your view on what is apropriate is also subjective and other disagree with that as well. > > > > > > Agreed, which is why we go with the most open version of the system, so that the largest number of players can benefit. > > > > > > >Still its a skin its more tied to the content than a utility. U made a example with the Dhuum scythe, it wouldnt make sense to get the scythe else where other than raids and when new players come i to the game and see tje same rewards for diff things they gonna assume that the developers are lazy. > > > > > > That's complete nonsense. There are hundreds of skins in the game that have no thematic connection to the place you find them. I mean, everything on the Gem Store, as the most obvious example. WvW and PvP reward tracks too. Why does a White Mantle themed raid drop Cantha themed Legendary armor? Nobody knows! There's absolutely no reason why the current raid-exclusive rewards could not be found elsewhere in the game from a thematic standpoint. > > > > The raid armor is not Cantha themed. It is called envoy armor because you actually take the task of the envoys and guide Saul into the mists. The theme is perfectly fine for the raid and the story behind it. The appearence has nothing to do with Cantha. There are very little skins that don't make sense in the content they appear. > > Oh, what about the PvP reward tracks? What about the Music Sheet Glider? What about the numerous exotic weapon skins that could just be found in random Champ bags? What about the many Legendary weapons that thematically are one of a kind, and yet you can find dozens of them on the TP because the precursors dropped off moas? > > I think that having a thematic *home* for a skin can be a lot of fun, but I don't think that theme should hold the skin hostage for all time. Sure, give it a "place" in the world, but also allow players to find it elsewhere if they prefer. Gen 1 precursor are a victim of the old systems. All gen 2 precursors need to be crafted. If those new systems had existed at release you wouldn't find any precursor as a drop. Gem store items are tied to nothing. Random open world items are needed. It is exactly what you want. Things in random places. The mists are between the worlds, basically anything can happen there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > I dont think u can make also the same arguement for trinkets. Because you are boumd to get at least 1 ring from doing somethong outside the raid so you are not "locked" behind it. You'd need at least two, since you'd need a pair. But yes, i do hope there will be several options, which is why i'm not complaining (yet, anyway. We'll see if my hopes are well founded). And in this case i actually do hope for an auraless option as well. > @"zealex.9410" said: > Still its a skin its more tied to the content than a utility. U made a example with the Dhuum scythe, it wouldnt make sense to get the scythe else where other than raids and when new players come i to the game and see tje same rewards for diff things they gonna assume that the developers are lazy. I did say i'm not really complaining about Dhuum scythe. Still, most skins are _not_ thematically tied to one specific content (and some are not thematically tied to anything currently in the game at all, or are given through other venues than the ones you'd expect them to come from). > @"zealex.9410" said: > Being new into the game and seeing the legendaries id assume the intented way is the crafting way. I wasn't talking about new players. I was talking about veterans. People who _knew_ TP was a far more efficient (and way easier) choice. > @"zealex.9410" said: > The more experienced u become in a subject the better choices u can make. Most ppl will go with efficiency in mind. If 1 weapon is generally far easier to get in 1 way than the other the majority will go for that way. Easier is relative, and other factors (like speed of acquisition and interest) play a role as well. Dungeons were still immensely popular before they were axed, even if SW chestfarm at that time was both easier (can't get any easier than running around and opening chests) and more rewarding per time invested. Most pve players still got their dungeon skins and tokens from dungeons, even if pvp dungeon reward tracks were more efficient. WvW players kept playing that content even when it was considered to be totally unrewarding (and some players actually had to farm other content to subsidize their WvW playing habits) But yes, you're generally right - it is possible to make one path the visibly best option to take, and barring other considerations, without prior prefecences getting in the way, players would tend to follow that. For some things it would be PvP, for others it would be raids, or dungeons, or fractals, or LS, or whatever. Personally i consider it a better option than hard restrictions that do not even let you have a choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 12, 2018 Author Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: >Gen 1 precursor are a victim of the old systems. All gen 2 precursors need to be crafted. True, and yet still most of them can be crafted without any thematic component whatsoever. You just need a large stack of generic materials, and boom, you have a Gen2 Legendary weapon. I understand that this was a resource allocation issue, that they wanted to thematically tie these weapons but couldnt find the time, but the fact remains that they release them in this form anyway. >Gem store items are tied to nothing. Random open world items are needed. It is exactly what you want. Things in random places. The mists are between the worlds, basically anything can happen there. So why is that ok for some items, but not for raid-themed items? Why is it ok for the Slothazor backpack and River of Souls glider to be in the gem store, but not for the Slothazor hammer or Sabetha's Boomstick to be available *anywhere* other than in raids? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > >Gen 1 precursor are a victim of the old systems. All gen 2 precursors need to be crafted. > > True, and yet still most of them can be crafted without any thematic component whatsoever. You just need a large stack of generic materials, and boom, you have a Gen2 Legendary weapon. I understand that this was a resource allocation issue, that they wanted to thematically tie these weapons but couldnt find the time, but the fact remains that they release them in this form anyway. > > >Gem store items are tied to nothing. Random open world items are needed. It is exactly what you want. Things in random places. > The mists are between the worlds, basically anything can happen there. > > So why is that ok for some items, but not for raid-themed items? Why is it ok for the Slothazor backpack and River of Souls glider to be in the gem store, but not for the Slothazor hammer or Sabetha's Boomstick to be available *anywhere* other than in raids? > > Have you actually crafted a gen 2 legendary? I have and i found it extremely relevant to what it asked me to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > They are irrelevant to the discussion ^^ And no if a skin has a theme it should go with that theme. Why would i for example be able ti craft cof armor from arah? How would that make sense? Due to the dungeoneer chests giving selectable tokens, you actually _can_ (well, not Arah alone, you'd need at least one other dungeon). Or you can pvp/wvw and never put a step into dungeons at all. And _it worked fine_. > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > The raid armor is not Cantha themed. It is called envoy armor because you actually take the task of the envoys and guide Saul into the mists. In Tyria, that's not the task of envoys, but of Grenth's servants. Envoys are Cantha specific. It's like making a Zhaitan/Risen themed instance, with the reward being the Awakened (or Joko) armor, and then saying that it's thematically tied because Awakened are undead after all. > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > The appearence has nothing to do with Cantha. Nor with anything we see in raids. Basically, neither the name or the look is tied to raids in any way. > @"zealex.9410" said: > Have you actually crafted a gen 2 legendary? I have and i found it extremely relevant to what it asked me to do. One of the first four, or the more generic latter ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > They are irrelevant to the discussion ^^ And no if a skin has a theme it should go with that theme. Why would i for example be able ti craft cof armor from arah? How would that make sense? > Due to the dungeoneer chests giving selectable tokens, you actually _can_ (well, not Arah alone, you'd need at least one other dungeon). Or you can pvp/wvw and never put a step into dungeons at all. > And _it worked fine_. > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > The raid armor is not Cantha themed. It is called envoy armor because you actually take the task of the envoys and guide Saul into the mists. > In Tyria, that's not the task of envoys, but of Grenth's servants. Envoys are Cantha specific. It's like making a Zhaitan/Risen themed instance, with the reward being the Awakened (or Joko) armor, and then saying that it's thematically tied because Awakened are undead after all. But its still the same task. Also naming it reaper armor would cause more confusion than envoy. > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > The appearence has nothing to do with Cantha. > Nor with anything we see in raids. > The light armor is all about the crystals and the first raid has a big connection with bloodstones which could be considered crystals :/ > Basically, neither the name or the look is tied to raids in any way. > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > Have you actually crafted a gen 2 legendary? I have and i found it extremely relevant to what it asked me to do. > One of the first four, or the more generic latter ones? > > One if the first 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 12, 2018 Author Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > Have you actually crafted a gen 2 legendary? I have and i found it extremely relevant to what it asked me to do. There are two types of gen2 Legendary. Are you talking a gen2.1 like Nevermore, or a gen 2.2 like Claw of the Khan Ur? In the case of the latter ones, all you need to do is buy and craft a bunch of bits. > The light armor is all about the crystals and the first raid has a big connection with bloodstones which could be considered crystals :/ There are plenty of crystals in the game, the crystals in light Envoy armor are NOT specifically Bloodstones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 12, 2018 Share Posted March 12, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > Have you actually crafted a gen 2 legendary? I have and i found it extremely relevant to what it asked me to do. > > There are two types of gen2 Legendary. Are you talking a gen2.1 like Nevermore, or a gen 2.2 like Claw of the Khan Ur? In the case of the latter ones, all you need to do is buy and craft a bunch of bits. > > > The light armor is all about the crystals and the first raid has a big connection with bloodstones which could be considered crystals :/ > > There are plenty of crystals in the game, the crystals in light Envoy armor are NOT specifically Bloodstones. No but the idea of the bloostones and their majic is explored isnide the raid and this armor drawing power from crystals is fiting to the raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 13, 2018 Author Share Posted March 13, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > Have you actually crafted a gen 2 legendary? I have and i found it extremely relevant to what it asked me to do. > > > > There are two types of gen2 Legendary. Are you talking a gen2.1 like Nevermore, or a gen 2.2 like Claw of the Khan Ur? In the case of the latter ones, all you need to do is buy and craft a bunch of bits. > > > > > The light armor is all about the crystals and the first raid has a big connection with bloodstones which could be considered crystals :/ > > > > There are plenty of crystals in the game, the crystals in light Envoy armor are NOT specifically Bloodstones. > > No but the idea of the bloostones and their majic is explored isnide the raid and this armor drawing power from crystals is fiting to the raid. It is, but it's also fitting *anywhere else in the game,* which is my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > >Gen 1 precursor are a victim of the old systems. All gen 2 precursors need to be crafted. > > True, and yet still most of them can be crafted without any thematic component whatsoever. You just need a large stack of generic materials, and boom, you have a Gen2 Legendary weapon. I understand that this was a resource allocation issue, that they wanted to thematically tie these weapons but couldnt find the time, but the fact remains that they release them in this form anyway. > > >Gem store items are tied to nothing. Random open world items are needed. It is exactly what you want. Things in random places. > The mists are between the worlds, basically anything can happen there. > > So why is that ok for some items, but not for raid-themed items? Why is it ok for the Slothazor backpack and River of Souls glider to be in the gem store, but not for the Slothazor hammer or Sabetha's Boomstick to be available *anywhere* other than in raids? > > Fractal skins are also not available in PvP, so are the exotic versions of all PoF weapons that need to be crafted. Same goes for luminescent armor. Or ascended skins from Tequatl and Triple Trouble. See open world has its own exclusive skins, but that's fine right? But if you would care you would argue for all rewards not just raids but it is only about yourself. Why does discussions about easy modes of raids _always_ turn to loot discussions? Oh right, it _is_ about loot and greed from people that can't complete or don't like certain tasks in the game. It is never about the community, story. A reward overhaul at this stage of a game will kill it. It is 5.5 years old. People that would have cared about your reward structure are long gone and will never return even if you change it now. But you will loose are big portion of the actual playerbase without any compensation. It won't happen. Just stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 13, 2018 Author Share Posted March 13, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: >Fractal skins are also not available in PvP, so are the exotic versions of all PoF weapons that need to be crafted. Same goes for luminescent armor. Or ascended skins from Tequatl and Triple Trouble. See open world has its own exclusive skins, but that's fine right? But if you would care you would argue for all rewards not just raids but it is only about yourself. Again, I **in no way oppose** opening up those items as well. My overall proposal involves all items, but my personal focus at the moment is on raid items, as they have the highest current accessibility barrier relative to the rest of the game. "Whataboutism" does you no favors here. >Why does discussions about easy modes of raids always turn to loot discussions? Because of posts like this one, which was #2 in the thread: > @"thrag.9740" said: > 3.) Rewards. Any online game has an aspect of competitiveness to it, and so rewards need to be balanced properly across difficulty modes, or players will feel unrewarded. This then leads to uneven population splits among the tiers and even longer que times, making point 1 even more of a problem. You can experience this in fractals right now. T4 and T1 fill quickly, but T2 and T3 not so much. You can't have a thread about raids without raiders ensuring that they retain exclusive access to any rewards they were gifted. Rewards re, obviously a significant part of the discussion though, so it only makes sense to discuss them. >Oh right, it is about loot and greed from people that can't complete or don't like certain tasks in the game. It is never about the community, story. Rewards are obviously part of it, not the only part, however much some people protest that it is, but that doesn't in any way invalidate the position. Peope who don't want to raid have as much right to demand access to those rewards as raiders have to demand exclusivity of them. If either party is being greedy, it would be those raiders, since those on the outside are only asking that *everyone* be able to have them, while those on the inside are demanding that *only* they get access. >A reward overhaul at this stage of a game will kill it. It is 5.5 years old. People that would have cared about your reward structure are long gone and will never return even if you change it now. But you will loose are big portion of the actual playerbase without any compensation. That's the exact sort of argument I would make against putting raids in the game, but look how that turned out? I see no reason that this proposal would in any way harm the game, it could only improve things by giving players more to chase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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