On difficulty modes (Game Maker's Toolkit)

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> And legendaries. Which were designed to be exclusive with their huge material cost.

That's not exclusivity. Anyone can work towards a core legendary weapon. Yes, most people will likely not get there, but even someone just logging in will see the progress towards it. You can't get any _less_ exclusive.

 

> Dungeon and fractal skins are also highly exclusive as most players just don't play instanced PvE. This was always the case even during the high of dungeon running.

Indeed. What a coincidence that dungeon skins were opened to reward tracks, and fractal skins were made directly purchasable with relics, which lowered their exclusivity (from a state that was already way lower compared to the raid skins). I have mentioned before that the pushback against exclusives is generally directly proportional to how exclusive they are, did i not?

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> What you're in fact proposing is to ruin the content for the players *it was designed for*, so that the players *not interested in it* can have its rewards.

If the number of players the content is designed for is so small that said content would die without the "hired help", then the content should probably not have been designed in the first place. And definitely is not worth investing too much effort from the devs.

Are you suggesting that the situation with raids is as bad as that?

 

> @"yann.1946" said:

> On the other hand people in general have to be "forced" into things they might enjoy.

Not really. Carrot is okay, but sticks can lead to enjoyment only in masochists. You should encourage people to try different types of content, but you really shouldn't try too hard. People in general do _not_ like to feel forced. That feeling can lead to them getting far less enjoyment out of the content that they might have had otherwise.

 

> @"yann.1946" said:

> Why are you under the assumption that all people who would enjoy a specific content type would also do that content type?

I don't. Just as i don't assume that all people playing a specific content type actually enjoy it. I just happen to think that the first case is better than the second. It's far more important to ensure that the players play what they enjoy, than to make certain that every content is played.

 

> @"yann.1946" said:

> As an example i'm 100% sure their are less players playing PvP then people who might enjoy PvP. Because of comments of toxicity and people not wanting to get out of their comfort zone.

Maybe. Or maybe it's the opposite, because there are a lot of people in PvP that do not in fact enjoy that gamemode at all.

 

> @"yann.1946" said:

> And you have to make the "shallow" rewards exclusive to that content type otherwise they won't serve their purpose.

> Isn't this something you don't want?

Both me and Ohoni agreed long time ago that there _is_ a purpose to shallowly buried exclusives. It's the deeply placed ones that we consider a problem.

 

Make them deep enough so a new player feels encouraged enough to try out the content, but not deep enough so they might feel being led there against their will.

There's a massive difference between playing the content for rewards, and playing the content for enjoyment and being rewarded for it. Players generally react far better to the second case. The first one can very well ruin their enjoyment completely.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > That applies to content, it does not apply to rewards.

> > >

> > > Yes, it does. Just like in real life. You want something? Just weigh your desire against the difficulty of the task and choose to either work for it or not. Simple.

> >

> > This is a game though, not real life. There is no reason why certain rules need to apply. The rewards exist to make players happy. If players are not happy with them, then the rewards have failed at their purpose.

>

> LOL no. The rewards exist to give players a reason to play, and specifically to re-play already played content. What you suggest? **This** would be failing their purpose.

 

For the purposes of this discussion, they are one in the same. If a reward exists, but behind a barrier that prevents people from bothering to seek it out, then it is not making them happy AND it is not giving them a reason to play. The only thing it is accomplishing is adding frustration, because the player knows that it is out there, and that they will never have it. That's the benefit of providing alternate methods of earning the reward, it takes players who are currently in the "irrelevant to me because I can never have it" camp, and shifts them into the "something I can meaningfully work towards" camp.

 

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>So basically the easy mode fails to teach you the fight unless you already know whats going on.

 

You say that like it's somehow a bad thing? As I said, IF you want to use it as a training mode, it provides you with the tools you'd need to do so. IF you just want to have mode with it as it is, you also have that option. It's like sparring in martial arts. Sparring is not real fighting. Sparring has rules. Just because you win at a sparring match doesn't mean that you would win in a real fight, but if you take the sparring match seriously, use information from outside the sparring match to evaluate whether you *would* have won that fight had it been for real, then you can still use it to learn important lessons that would benefit you in a real fight. Or you can just have fun sparring, entirely up to you.

 

>Also it is normal mode, not hard mode.

 

I use hard mode to differentiate it from easy mode. "Normal mode" is confusing when discussing a binary system. It's like saying "black and gray," or "hot and warm," or "wet or damp." I believe the current version is hard, I am suggesting they add an easier version than that. Just be grateful I'm not calling the easier version "normal mode," which would also be accurate, given that it would be "normalized" relative to the other content in the game.

 

>The question remains then how shallow do you need these rewards to be implemented?

 

Shallow. I've given examples in the past. One would be the Ascension. It's buried too deeply in PvP. It takes way too much PvP to earn it for someone who knows they don't enjoy PvP. If you take the full path to Ascension, it requires a ton of things. One of those things is a set of basic wings, the lowest tier of these is the "Recruit's Wings of Glory." This costs ten league tickets, which originally required you to reach the second (or maybe third) tier in the PvP rankings. This was not hard to do, but did require you to win several matches. I believe right now it's six matches, give or take. I would propose that they leave this in as the ONLY place to get this one item, you have to at least PvP that much, after which you would get the Recruit's Wings of Glory. After that though, there would be an alternate path to earn any of the other required ingredients to complete the Ascension, and you could do so in Open World, Raids, WvW, wherever you enjoyed playing. It would take time, it would take effort, but you could do it without having to spend more time than that in PvP. It would be balanced, however, with the intention that if you did enjoy PvP even a little, then playing through PvP would be the *fastest* way to complete it, involving the least amount of effort.

 

That might err on the side of "too little," I'd be willing to compromise up to something that takes like twice that much effort, but certainly not the whole thing. It's also important that the goal be something that ANY player is capable of achieving (assuming they can achieve the majority of other activities in the game), rather than being a hard skill-wall that many players couldn't cross (like Liadri). The goal is to get them to try, it shouldn't force them to succeed if that isn't in their skillset.

 

Likewise with raiding, you get magnetite whether you succeed or fail, so I would propose that there would be some component you'd need for Legendary Armor that would absolutely require a few dozen magnetite, but that would be all, and if you didn't enjoy raiding after that, then you could move on to some other activity with the one vital piece, and collect the remaining pieces elsewhere.

 

I'm not proposing that they just hand out really high quality items for minimal effort, I'm suggesting that they either hand out a decent little unique gimmick, like a llama or something, or that they only hand out a *piece* of a really cool thing, and you'd have to work hard to get the rest elsewhere. My point though is that if something *does* take a ton of time and effort to earn, then players should have their own choice in *how and where* they spend that time and effort, rather than being tied down to a single activity that they might not enjoy.

 

>And you have to make the "shallow" rewards exclusive to that content type otherwise they won't serve their purpose.

Isn't this something you don't want?

 

I think it's fine for everyone to have to *try* a little of everything. They might not enjoy it, but so long as it doesn't take more than a couple hours out of their life, it's manageable. It only becomes onerous when it's not only required that they *try* it, but also that they *stick with it* for dozens of hours. The game should respect player's time and choices, and not pressure them into doing things they don't want to do for any longer than it has to.

 

[Skyric.9246]

There are a couple of things I don't understand in the context of all this back and forth. One, what is so evil about exclusive skins? For example, I don't PVP. But if the developers decided to grant an exclusive skin to a 4-man team of winners of a world tournament and that skin was the coolest in the world to me subjectively, I wouldn't complain about it in the slightest, even though there would be no way possible for me to obtain that skin no matter what I did. I would say "Good for them, well done." I certainly wouldn't ask for the game mode to be changed to make that skin available from a basic vendor.

 

Because the game involves a considerable amount of fashion wars, the argument on skins and exclusivity goes both ways. Yes there are more people that may like a skin, but it also makes it reasonable for a skin to be a reward for content that is more difficult than some people have the skill, time, patience or all of the above to complete.

 

I'm not sure how many skins there are available in this game, but it's more than a thousand. The idea that someone can't be sufficiently happy with the game because they either can't or won't get a handful of skins out of the thousand available sounds like hypersensitivity, and hypersensitivity should always be ignored. It's not a bad thing to just do without the handful of skins that are available in the raids if you can't or won't raid. If it makes a person sad that they can't have those skins, how sad does it make them one a scale of 1-10, with 1 being "I wish I had that skin, but oh well, I'll go back to enjoying the game as I play it with the skins I have," and 10 being "This system is evil, and raids have poisoned the game because I can't get envoy armor, so I'm seriously thinking about quitting unless they change the existing game mode or create a new mode so I can't get the rewards I want and I'll complain on the forums until that happens?" For me in the pvp example, I wouldn't even call it sadness at all, but it it was, it would be a 1 or less than 1.

 

Seriously doing without a handful of skins is a completely reasonable non-evil option. Exclusive rewards tied to challenging difficulty is a completely reasonable non-evil option and there's no good reason they should not exist in a game. People that can't get happy in this game with the amount of options available to them are hypersensitive, and again, even if this represents the majority, hypersensitivity should be ignored and the majority can be wrong and unreasonable.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > That applies to content, it does not apply to rewards.

> > > >

> > > > Yes, it does. Just like in real life. You want something? Just weigh your desire against the difficulty of the task and choose to either work for it or not. Simple.

> > >

> > > This is a game though, not real life. There is no reason why certain rules need to apply. The rewards exist to make players happy. If players are not happy with them, then the rewards have failed at their purpose.

> >

> > LOL no. The rewards exist to give players a reason to play, and specifically to re-play already played content. What you suggest? **This** would be failing their purpose.

>

> For the purposes of this discussion, they are one in the same. If a reward exists, but behind a barrier that prevents people from bothering to seek it out, then it is not making them happy AND it is not giving them a reason to play. The only thing it is accomplishing is adding frustration, because the player knows that it is out there, and that they will never have it. That's the benefit of providing alternate methods of earning the reward, it takes players who are currently in the "irrelevant to me because I can never have it" camp, and shifts them into the "something I can meaningfully work towards" camp.

>

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> >So basically the easy mode fails to teach you the fight unless you already know whats going on.

>

> You say that like it's somehow a bad thing? As I said, IF you want to use it as a training mode, it provides you with the tools you'd need to do so. IF you just want to have mode with it as it is, you also have that option. It's like sparring in martial arts. Sparring is not real fighting. Sparring has rules. Just because you win at a sparring match doesn't mean that you would win in a real fight, but if you take the sparring match seriously, use information from outside the sparring match to evaluate whether you *would* have won that fight had it been for real, then you can still use it to learn important lessons that would benefit you in a real fight. Or you can just have fun sparring, entirely up to you.

>

> >Also it is normal mode, not hard mode.

>

> I use hard mode to differentiate it from easy mode. "Normal mode" is confusing when discussing a binary system. It's like saying "black and gray," or "hot and warm," or "wet or damp." I believe the current version is hard, I am suggesting they add an easier version than that. Just be grateful I'm not calling the easier version "normal mode," which would also be accurate, given that it would be "normalized" relative to the other content in the game.

>

> >The question remains then how shallow do you need these rewards to be implemented?

>

> Shallow. I've given examples in the past. One would be the Ascension. It's buried too deeply in PvP. It takes way too much PvP to earn it for someone who knows they don't enjoy PvP. If you take the full path to Ascension, it requires a ton of things. One of those things is a set of basic wings, the lowest tier of these is the "Recruit's Wings of Glory." This costs ten league tickets, which originally required you to reach the second (or maybe third) tier in the PvP rankings. This was not hard to do, but did require you to win several matches. I believe right now it's six matches, give or take. I would propose that they leave this in as the ONLY place to get this one item, you have to at least PvP that much, after which you would get the Recruit's Wings of Glory. After that though, there would be an alternate path to earn any of the other required ingredients to complete the Ascension, and you could do so in Open World, Raids, WvW, wherever you enjoyed playing. It would take time, it would take effort, but you could do it without having to spend more time than that in PvP. It would be balanced, however, with the intention that if you did enjoy PvP even a little, then playing through PvP would be the *fastest* way to complete it, involving the least amount of effort.

>

> That might err on the side of "too little," I'd be willing to compromise up to something that takes like twice that much effort, but certainly not the whole thing. It's also important that the goal be something that ANY player is capable of achieving (assuming they can achieve the majority of other activities in the game), rather than being a hard skill-wall that many players couldn't cross (like Liadri). The goal is to get them to try, it shouldn't force them to succeed if that isn't in their skillset.

>

> Likewise with raiding, you get magnetite whether you succeed or fail, so I would propose that there would be some component you'd need for Legendary Armor that would absolutely require a few dozen magnetite, but that would be all, and if you didn't enjoy raiding after that, then you could move on to some other activity with the one vital piece, and collect the remaining pieces elsewhere.

>

> I'm not proposing that they just hand out really high quality items for minimal effort, I'm suggesting that they either hand out a decent little unique gimmick, like a llama or something, or that they only hand out a *piece* of a really cool thing, and you'd have to work hard to get the rest elsewhere. My point though is that if something *does* take a ton of time and effort to earn, then players should have their own choice in *how and where* they spend that time and effort, rather than being tied down to a single activity that they might not enjoy.

>

> >And you have to make the "shallow" rewards exclusive to that content type otherwise they won't serve their purpose.

> Isn't this something you don't want?

>

> I think it's fine for everyone to have to *try* a little of everything. They might not enjoy it, but so long as it doesn't take more than a couple hours out of their life, it's manageable. It only becomes onerous when it's not only required that they *try* it, but also that they *stick with it* for dozens of hours. The game should respect player's time and choices, and not pressure them into doing things they don't want to do for any longer than it has to.

>

 

Yes not showing the fight is bad. How should you train if you don't know what you are supposed to do? Every game with an easy mode shows it. It fails as a training mode.

 

Hard mode already exists in form of challenge motes. You use it to create a false impression of what raids are. They are not that hard as people like you want everyone to believe.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Skyric.9246" said:

>There are a couple of things I don't understand in the context of all this back and forth. One, what is so evil about exclusive skins? For example, I don't PVP. But if the developers decided to grant an exclusive skin to a 4-man team of winners of a world tournament and that skin was the coolest in the world to me subjectively, I wouldn't complain about it in the slightest, even though there would be no way possible for me to obtain that skin no matter what I did.

 

Well, that's you. If you feel that way, that's fine. Just understand that there are other people who don't feel that way, who feel that if the developers add cool things to the game that they can't possibly get, it is annoying to them. It's ok that these people feel this way, different people can care about things differently.

 

>I'm not sure how many skins there are available in this game, but it's more than a thousand. The idea that someone can't be sufficiently happy with the game because they either can't or won't get a handful of skins out of the thousand available sounds like hypersensitivity, and hypersensitivity should always be ignored.

 

Art is subjective.

 

Which skins a player prefers, and how much it matters to him which skins are available will vary from player to player.

 

Just because you don't care, does not make it somehow "wrong" for others to care.

 

> If it makes a person sad that they can't have those skins, how sad does it make them one a scale of 1-10,

 

How sad should they have to be for ANet to do something to make them less sad?

 

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>Yes not showing the fight is bad. How should you train if you don't know what you are supposed to do

 

Why do you keep ignoring the existence of strategy vids that show players how the hard mode functions? There is little excuse for someone to be using easy mode as a training aid and NOT knowing before they start how the mechanics are intended to work in the hard mode version.

 

>Hard mode already exists in form of challenge motes. You use it to create a false impression of what raids are. They are not that hard as people like you want everyone to believe.

 

That's entirely subjective.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Skyric.9246" said:

> >There are a couple of things I don't understand in the context of all this back and forth. One, what is so evil about exclusive skins? For example, I don't PVP. But if the developers decided to grant an exclusive skin to a 4-man team of winners of a world tournament and that skin was the coolest in the world to me subjectively, I wouldn't complain about it in the slightest, even though there would be no way possible for me to obtain that skin no matter what I did.

>

> Well, that's you. If you feel that way, that's fine. Just understand that there are other people who don't feel that way, who feel that if the developers add cool things to the game that they can't possibly get, it is annoying to them. It's ok that these people feel this way, different people can care about things differently.

>

> >I'm not sure how many skins there are available in this game, but it's more than a thousand. The idea that someone can't be sufficiently happy with the game because they either can't or won't get a handful of skins out of the thousand available sounds like hypersensitivity, and hypersensitivity should always be ignored.

>

> Art is subjective.

>

> Which skins a player prefers, and how much it matters to him which skins are available will vary from player to player.

>

> Just because you don't care, does not make it somehow "wrong" for others to care.

>

> > If it makes a person sad that they can't have those skins, how sad does it make them one a scale of 1-10,

>

> How sad should they have to be for ANet to do something to make them less sad?

>

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> >Yes not showing the fight is bad. How should you train if you don't know what you are supposed to do

>

> Why do you keep ignoring the existence of strategy vids that show players how the hard mode functions? There is little excuse for someone to be using easy mode as a training aid and NOT knowing before they start how the mechanics are intended to work in the hard mode version.

>

> >Hard mode already exists in form of challenge motes. You use it to create a false impression of what raids are. They are not that hard as people like you want everyone to believe.

>

> That's entirely subjective.

 

And why are people who want everything everywhere more important than people who want exclusive skins? You said multiple times that it won't hurt anybody with this chance.

 

A training mode that doesn't show the fight properly without **external** sources (videos are an external source, did you knew that?) are useless.

Yes thats why you have to tune the easy mode to the bottom or people like you will come back and complain they want a baby mode because easy mode is still too hard. So either overtune every reward or reward almost nothing in easy mode aka wasted time (you said it yourself).

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>And why are people who want everything everywhere more important than people who want exclusive skins? You said multiple times that it won't hurt anybody with this chance.

 

It won't hurt anyone. Anyone who already has the skins, will continue to have them. They will not be harmed. Anyone who wants to earn them through the current source, will still be able to earn them through the current source. They will not be harmed. Anyone who doesn't have them and can't reasonably earn them under the current system, will now have new paths to do so. They will benefit. The only people who could possibly be harmed would be those who would resent the happiness of that latter group, in which case. . . who should care?

 

>A training mode that doesn't show the fight properly without external sources (videos are an external source, did you knew that?) are useless.

 

Nonsense. Those external sources exist. Even if you don't consider outside videos, there are other players to help walk you through it. If you want to figure out the raid mechanics yourself, then maybe the easy mode wouldn't be *for you,* but that's a very different thing than claiming that it isn't for *anyone.*

 

>Yes thats why you have to tune the easy mode to the bottom or people like you will come back and complain they want a baby mode because easy mode is still too hard.

 

That would mean one of two things. Either A. it is still too hard, which is always possible, and would require some additional tweaks, or B. it's not too hard and the remaining players would be way too few to matter. It would really depend on how many people were clearing the easy mode. If most people attempting it were complting it just fine, then there would be no need for additional tuning.

 

>So either overtune every reward or reward almost nothing in easy mode aka wasted time (you said it yourself).

 

This is true of all content in the game. All we're doing is balancing the easy mode against the other content in the game. The rewards it offers need to be worth the time and effort it would take to complete it.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> >And why are people who want everything everywhere more important than people who want exclusive skins? You said multiple times that it won't hurt anybody with this chance.

>

> It won't hurt anyone. Anyone who already has the skins, will continue to have them. They will not be harmed. Anyone who wants to earn them through the current source, will still be able to earn them through the current source. They will not be harmed. Anyone who doesn't have them and can't reasonably earn them under the current system, will now have new paths to do so. They will benefit. The only people who could possibly be harmed would be those who would resent the happiness of that latter group, in which case. . . who should care?

>

> >A training mode that doesn't show the fight properly without external sources (videos are an external source, did you knew that?) are useless.

>

> Nonsense. Those external sources exist. Even if you don't consider outside videos, there are other players to help walk you through it. If you want to figure out the raid mechanics yourself, then maybe the easy mode wouldn't be *for you,* but that's a very different thing than claiming that it isn't for *anyone.*

>

> >Yes thats why you have to tune the easy mode to the bottom or people like you will come back and complain they want a baby mode because easy mode is still too hard.

>

> That would mean one of two things. Either A. it is still too hard, which is always possible, and would require some additional tweaks, or B. it's not too hard and the remaining players would be way too few to matter. It would really depend on how many people were clearing the easy mode. If most people attempting it were complting it just fine, then there would be no need for additional tuning.

>

> >So either overtune every reward or reward almost nothing in easy mode aka wasted time (you said it yourself).

>

> This is true of all content in the game. All we're doing is balancing the easy mode against the other content in the game. The rewards it offers need to be worth the time and effort it would take to complete it.

 

Anything easier than the current normal mode is worth the gold and its blues/greens.

[Henry.5713]

> @"Skyric.9246" said:

> There are a couple of things I don't understand in the context of all this back and forth. One, what is so evil about exclusive skins? For example, I don't PVP. But if the developers decided to grant an exclusive skin to a 4-man team of winners of a world tournament and that skin was the coolest in the world to me subjectively, I wouldn't complain about it in the slightest, even though there would be no way possible for me to obtain that skin no matter what I did. I would say "Good for them, well done." I certainly wouldn't ask for the game mode to be changed to make that skin available from a basic vendor.

>

> Because the game involves a considerable amount of fashion wars, the argument on skins and exclusivity goes both ways. Yes there are more people that may like a skin, but it also makes it reasonable for a skin to be a reward for content that is more difficult than some people have the skill, time, patience or all of the above to complete.

>

> I'm not sure how many skins there are available in this game, but it's more than a thousand. The idea that someone can't be sufficiently happy with the game because they either can't or won't get a handful of skins out of the thousand available sounds like hypersensitivity, and hypersensitivity should always be ignored. It's not a bad thing to just do without the handful of skins that are available in the raids if you can't or won't raid. If it makes a person sad that they can't have those skins, how sad does it make them one a scale of 1-10, with 1 being "I wish I had that skin, but oh well, I'll go back to enjoying the game as I play it with the skins I have," and 10 being "This system is evil, and raids have poisoned the game because I can't get envoy armor, so I'm seriously thinking about quitting unless they change the existing game mode or create a new mode so I can't get the rewards I want and I'll complain on the forums until that happens?" For me in the pvp example, I wouldn't even call it sadness at all, but it it was, it would be a 1 or less than 1.

>

> Seriously doing without a handful of skins is a completely reasonable non-evil option. Exclusive rewards tied to challenging difficulty is a completely reasonable non-evil option and there's no good reason they should not exist in a game. People that can't get happy in this game with the amount of options available to them are hypersensitive, and again, even if this represents the majority, hypersensitivity should be ignored and the majority can be wrong and unreasonable.

 

Wholeheartedly agree with you there. I really have trouble taking these complaints about unique skins seriously.

Getting to see unique skins, legendary items, even a max level player in normal high tier armor used to be amazing to us. You'd go through so much even if you played at a much slower pace, working for ages to acquire something if you wanted it badly enough. And we certainly did want those things badly.

But no, things are different now. Everyone assumes to be entitled to have absolutely every tiny thing in the game revolve around themselves based on nothing more than their personal status as a paying customer, their status as a miniscule part of the membership of a huge club. Some consider it an offense worth quitting over if a tiny part of this club, probably like 1% of the content, is not designed specifically around their own specific wishes. Not to mention the audacity of rewarding slightly more fancy looking versions of already elsewhere avaible items to those who show a little more dedication than others.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> How sad should they have to be for ANet to do something to make them less sad?

 

The answer to this is already in the post you quoted. Twice. And it's a simple one: they should be ignored. Because they are behaving like spoiled children.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Anything easier than the current normal mode is worth the gold and its blues/greens.

 

Exactly this! Raids are not very much worth it compared to almost all other things you can do in the game.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Anything easier than the current normal mode is worth the gold and its blues/greens.

 

So you're arguing that nothing in the current game that is easier than beating raid encounters rewards anything better than blues/greens for the effort?

 

> @"Henry.5713" said:

>Getting to see unique skins, legendary items, even a max level player in normal high tier armor used to be amazing to us. You'd go through so much even if you played at a much slower pace, working for ages to acquire something if you wanted it badly enough. And we certainly did want those things badly.

 

Also we had to walk to school every day, in the snow, uphill, both ways. . .

 

Games have improved a lot over the years, that's not something to lament, it's something to celebrate.

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > How sad should they have to be for ANet to do something to make them less sad?

>

> The answer to this is already in the post you quoted. Twice. And it's a simple one: they should be ignored. Because they are behaving like spoiled children.

 

"I know you are, but what am I?"

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Anything easier than the current normal mode is worth the gold and its blues/greens.

>

> So you're arguing that nothing in the current game that is easier than beating raid encounters rewards anything better than blues/greens for the effort?

>

> > @"Henry.5713" said:

> >Getting to see unique skins, legendary items, even a max level player in normal high tier armor used to be amazing to us. You'd go through so much even if you played at a much slower pace, working for ages to acquire something if you wanted it badly enough. And we certainly did want those things badly.

>

> Also we had to walk to school every day, in the snow, uphill, both ways. . .

>

> Games have improved a lot over the years, that's not something to lament, it's something to celebrate.

>

>

 

No but raids offset (kinda) their poor rliquid rewards with the cosmetics.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > Anything easier than the current normal mode is worth the gold and its blues/greens.

> >

> > So you're arguing that nothing in the current game that is easier than beating raid encounters rewards anything better than blues/greens for the effort?

> >

> > > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > >Getting to see unique skins, legendary items, even a max level player in normal high tier armor used to be amazing to us. You'd go through so much even if you played at a much slower pace, working for ages to acquire something if you wanted it badly enough. And we certainly did want those things badly.

> >

> > Also we had to walk to school every day, in the snow, uphill, both ways. . .

> >

> > Games have improved a lot over the years, that's not something to lament, it's something to celebrate.

> >

> >

>

> No but raids offset (kinda) their poor rliquid rewards with the cosmetics.

 

It's pointless mate. He doesn't care about the raids. He'd just get the rewards for himself even if this ruins a game mode completely, because he's not playing that content.

[Henry.5713]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Anything easier than the current normal mode is worth the gold and its blues/greens.

>

> So you're arguing that nothing in the current game that is easier than beating raid encounters rewards anything better than blues/greens for the effort?

>

> > @"Henry.5713" said:

> >Getting to see unique skins, legendary items, even a max level player in normal high tier armor used to be amazing to us. You'd go through so much even if you played at a much slower pace, working for ages to acquire something if you wanted it badly enough. And we certainly did want those things badly.

>

> Also we had to walk to school every day, in the snow, uphill, both ways. . .

>

> Games have improved a lot over the years, that's not something to lament, it's something to celebrate.

>

>

 

Changes can obviously only be for the better. All of that terrible walking to school I had to do as a kid. It is certainly so much better now that they are driven everywhere by their personal taxi moms. The current level of childhood obesity is so much more healthy for our society.

[yann.1946]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> >The question remains then how shallow do you need these rewards to be implemented?

>

> Shallow. I've given examples in the past. One would be the Ascension. It's buried too deeply in PvP. It takes way too much PvP to earn it for someone who knows they don't enjoy PvP. If you take the full path to Ascension, it requires a ton of things. One of those things is a set of basic wings, the lowest tier of these is the "Recruit's Wings of Glory." This costs ten league tickets, which originally required you to reach the second (or maybe third) tier in the PvP rankings. This was not hard to do, but did require you to win several matches. I believe right now it's six matches, give or take. I would propose that they leave this in as the ONLY place to get this one item, you have to at least PvP that much, after which you would get the Recruit's Wings of Glory. After that though, there would be an alternate path to earn any of the other required ingredients to complete the Ascension, and you could do so in Open World, Raids, WvW, wherever you enjoyed playing. It would take time, it would take effort, but you could do it without having to spend more time than that in PvP. It would be balanced, however, with the intention that if you did enjoy PvP even a little, then playing through PvP would be the *fastest* way to complete it, involving the least amount of effort.

>

> That might err on the side of "too little," I'd be willing to compromise up to something that takes like twice that much effort, but certainly not the whole thing. It's also important that the goal be something that ANY player is capable of achieving (assuming they can achieve the majority of other activities in the game), rather than being a hard skill-wall that many players couldn't cross (like Liadri). The goal is to get them to try, it shouldn't force them to succeed if that isn't in their skillset.

>

> Likewise with raiding, you get magnetite whether you succeed or fail, so I would propose that there would be some component you'd need for Legendary Armor that would absolutely require a few dozen magnetite, but that would be all, and if you didn't enjoy raiding after that, then you could move on to some other activity with the one vital piece, and collect the remaining pieces elsewhere.

>

> I'm not proposing that they just hand out really high quality items for minimal effort, I'm suggesting that they either hand out a decent little unique gimmick, like a llama or something, or that they only hand out a *piece* of a really cool thing, and you'd have to work hard to get the rest elsewhere. My point though is that if something *does* take a ton of time and effort to earn, then players should have their own choice in *how and where* they spend that time and effort, rather than being tied down to a single activity that they might not enjoy.

 

But winning 6 matches could also be considered to hard/not fun for some people. Where do you draw the line and why should those people then be ignored.

 

> >And you have to make the "shallow" rewards exclusive to that content type otherwise they won't serve their purpose.

> Isn't this something you don't want?

>

> I think it's fine for everyone to have to *try* a little of everything. They might not enjoy it, but so long as it doesn't take more than a couple hours out of their life, it's manageable. It only becomes onerous when it's not only required that they *try* it, but also that they *stick with it* for dozens of hours. The game should respect player's time and choices, and not pressure them into doing things they don't want to do for any longer than it has to.

>

 

But why is a few hours manageable? what makes the people in your argument who don't wat to spend those few hours worse then the people who do?

 

My point is that this boundary is so subjective that it could be applied to the current situation also. It would be in my opinion a much better use of their time to actually animate the PvP and WvW sets.

[zealex.9410]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > >The question remains then how shallow do you need these rewards to be implemented?

> >

> > Shallow. I've given examples in the past. One would be the Ascension. It's buried too deeply in PvP. It takes way too much PvP to earn it for someone who knows they don't enjoy PvP. If you take the full path to Ascension, it requires a ton of things. One of those things is a set of basic wings, the lowest tier of these is the "Recruit's Wings of Glory." This costs ten league tickets, which originally required you to reach the second (or maybe third) tier in the PvP rankings. This was not hard to do, but did require you to win several matches. I believe right now it's six matches, give or take. I would propose that they leave this in as the ONLY place to get this one item, you have to at least PvP that much, after which you would get the Recruit's Wings of Glory. After that though, there would be an alternate path to earn any of the other required ingredients to complete the Ascension, and you could do so in Open World, Raids, WvW, wherever you enjoyed playing. It would take time, it would take effort, but you could do it without having to spend more time than that in PvP. It would be balanced, however, with the intention that if you did enjoy PvP even a little, then playing through PvP would be the *fastest* way to complete it, involving the least amount of effort.

> >

> > That might err on the side of "too little," I'd be willing to compromise up to something that takes like twice that much effort, but certainly not the whole thing. It's also important that the goal be something that ANY player is capable of achieving (assuming they can achieve the majority of other activities in the game), rather than being a hard skill-wall that many players couldn't cross (like Liadri). The goal is to get them to try, it shouldn't force them to succeed if that isn't in their skillset.

> >

> > Likewise with raiding, you get magnetite whether you succeed or fail, so I would propose that there would be some component you'd need for Legendary Armor that would absolutely require a few dozen magnetite, but that would be all, and if you didn't enjoy raiding after that, then you could move on to some other activity with the one vital piece, and collect the remaining pieces elsewhere.

> >

> > I'm not proposing that they just hand out really high quality items for minimal effort, I'm suggesting that they either hand out a decent little unique gimmick, like a llama or something, or that they only hand out a *piece* of a really cool thing, and you'd have to work hard to get the rest elsewhere. My point though is that if something *does* take a ton of time and effort to earn, then players should have their own choice in *how and where* they spend that time and effort, rather than being tied down to a single activity that they might not enjoy.

>

> But winning 6 matches could also be considered to hard/not fun for some people. Where do you draw the line and why should those people then be ignored.

>

> > >And you have to make the "shallow" rewards exclusive to that content type otherwise they won't serve their purpose.

> > Isn't this something you don't want?

> >

> > I think it's fine for everyone to have to *try* a little of everything. They might not enjoy it, but so long as it doesn't take more than a couple hours out of their life, it's manageable. It only becomes onerous when it's not only required that they *try* it, but also that they *stick with it* for dozens of hours. The game should respect player's time and choices, and not pressure them into doing things they don't want to do for any longer than it has to.

> >

>

> But why is a few hours manageable? what makes the people in your argument who don't wat to spend those few hours worse then the people who do?

>

> My point is that this boundary is so subjective that it could be applied to the current situation also. It would be in my opinion a much better use of their time to actually animate the PvP and WvW sets.

 

Game resoects their time by not putting something there that gives these players an advantage.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

>No but raids offset (kinda) their poor rliquid rewards with the cosmetics.

 

And that's how easy mode would work too.

 

"Normal" mode: Whatever they currently offer in gold and generic loot, progress towards cosmetics.

 

Easy mode: All of the above, just in smaller quantities relative to the difference in difficulty.

 

If necessary, I am not opposed to raising the standard dropped rewards from raids if that needs to happen to keep them viable.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> It's pointless mate. He doesn't care about the raids. He'd just get the rewards for himself even if this ruins a game mode completely, because he's not playing that content.

 

That's not accurate. I've already noted that I would continue to view this as the best path forward, even if I, personally, were just given all this stuff and no longer had a personal need for it. It's not about me, but it is about people *like* me.

 

> @"yann.1946" said:

> But winning 6 matches could also be considered to hard/not fun for some people. Where do you draw the line and why should those people then be ignored.

 

"Where it's reasonable to do so," as with anything. Winning six matches cannot be described as "hard," because it's a team sport, and no matter how bad you might be, if you play enough matches you'll win six of them eventually just by luck. Plus you get points for losing too, so I think it's something like losing twenty matches and you get it too, so that's the hard floor. If you don't enjoy the mode after 20 matches, you probably never will. And yeah, it might be boring, but hat's what I'm talking about, if it's a reasonable amount of time, a few hours out of a game meant to be played for hundreds, then that's not a big deal. It's a far different thing than a reward that requires you to spend *hundreds* of hours doing an activity that you aren't enjoying.

 

>But why is a few hours manageable? what makes the people in your argument who don't wat to spend those few hours worse then the people who do?

 

On a game of this scope, I think it's disingenuous to even attempt to argue otherwise. If you're unwilling to put in a *few* hours here or there, then this is just entirely the wrong genre. If any player enjoys GW2 in any way, then they can be reasonably expected to invest a few hours here or there, simple as that. I don't take this as a serious argument, I take it as an attempt to shut down discussion of the topic, a combination of slippery slopes and strawmen that benefits nothing.

 

>My point is that this boundary is so subjective that it could be applied to the current situation also. It would be in my opinion a much better use of their time to actually animate the PvP and WvW sets.

 

You mean to make them as visually impressive as the raid ones? But then what about the PvE players, who still have no Legendary set at all? Or what if a raider likes the PvP set's look better, while a PvPer still prefers the raid set? Skins are not fungible, people like the ones they like, and there's no such thing as "equivalent" or "just as good." There are numerous blue and green skins in this game that I would trade for any Exotic or Ascended skins available if I could only choose one of them. If you give one side one unique skin, and the other side ten unique skins, that doesn't mean that the second side got a "better deal" if *they* prefer the one that is excluded from them. The only way to ensure that *everyone* is happy is to provide everyone access to *all* skins. Make them something you need to work towards, sure, but make it so that the *method* by which you work towards it can fall into a variety of tasks that are likely to suit the broadest reasonable range of players.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Game resoects their time by not putting something there that gives these players an advantage.

 

That assumes that gameplay advantage is more important than cosmetics. I'd easily trade Legendary armor with no skins for white armor with the Envoy skins on them.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > It's pointless mate. He doesn't care about the raids. He'd just get the rewards for himself even if this ruins a game mode completely, because he's not playing that content.

>

> That's not accurate. I've already noted that I would continue to view this as the best path forward, even if I, personally, were just given all this stuff and no longer had a personal need for it. It's not about me, but it is about people *like* me.

 

Oh, I'm fully aware you would continue to view this as "the best path forward", as the alternative would be to admit to yourself you're being extremely selfish. You don't want to think that of yourself, and therefore you'll find a way to convince yourself otherwise. This is what makes the conversation pointless. You're debating out of belief and you're not listening to reason.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> >No but raids offset (kinda) their poor rliquid rewards with the cosmetics.

>

> And that's how easy mode would work too.

>

> "Normal" mode: Whatever they currently offer in gold and generic loot, progress towards cosmetics.

>

> Easy mode: All of the above, just in smaller quantities relative to the difference in difficulty.

>

> If necessary, I am not opposed to raising the standard dropped rewards from raids if that needs to happen to keep them viable.

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > It's pointless mate. He doesn't care about the raids. He'd just get the rewards for himself even if this ruins a game mode completely, because he's not playing that content.

>

> That's not accurate. I've already noted that I would continue to view this as the best path forward, even if I, personally, were just given all this stuff and no longer had a personal need for it. It's not about me, but it is about people *like* me.

>

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > But winning 6 matches could also be considered to hard/not fun for some people. Where do you draw the line and why should those people then be ignored.

>

> "Where it's reasonable to do so," as with anything. Winning six matches cannot be described as "hard," because it's a team sport, and no matter how bad you might be, if you play enough matches you'll win six of them eventually just by luck. Plus you get points for losing too, so I think it's something like losing twenty matches and you get it too, so that's the hard floor. If you don't enjoy the mode after 20 matches, you probably never will. And yeah, it might be boring, but hat's what I'm talking about, if it's a reasonable amount of time, a few hours out of a game meant to be played for hundreds, then that's not a big deal. It's a far different thing than a reward that requires you to spend *hundreds* of hours doing an activity that you aren't enjoying.

>

> >But why is a few hours manageable? what makes the people in your argument who don't wat to spend those few hours worse then the people who do?

>

> On a game of this scope, I think it's disingenuous to even attempt to argue otherwise. If you're unwilling to put in a *few* hours here or there, then this is just entirely the wrong genre. If any player enjoys GW2 in any way, then they can be reasonably expected to invest a few hours here or there, simple as that. I don't take this as a serious argument, I take it as an attempt to shut down discussion of the topic, a combination of slippery slopes and strawmen that benefits nothing.

>

> >My point is that this boundary is so subjective that it could be applied to the current situation also. It would be in my opinion a much better use of their time to actually animate the PvP and WvW sets.

>

> You mean to make them as visually impressive as the raid ones? But then what about the PvE players, who still have no Legendary set at all? Or what if a raider likes the PvP set's look better, while a PvPer still prefers the raid set? Skins are not fungible, people like the ones they like, and there's no such thing as "equivalent" or "just as good." There are numerous blue and green skins in this game that I would trade for any Exotic or Ascended skins available if I could only choose one of them. If you give one side one unique skin, and the other side ten unique skins, that doesn't mean that the second side got a "better deal" if *they* prefer the one that is excluded from them. The only way to ensure that *everyone* is happy is to provide everyone access to *all* skins. Make them something you need to work towards, sure, but make it so that the *method* by which you work towards it can fall into a variety of tasks that are likely to suit the broadest reasonable range of players.

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Game resoects their time by not putting something there that gives these players an advantage.

>

> That assumes that gameplay advantage is more important than cosmetics. I'd easily trade Legendary armor with no skins for white armor with the Envoy skins on them.

 

Again why would i go from easy ti normal mode? Easy mode takes far less time to do.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> >No but raids offset (kinda) their poor rliquid rewards with the cosmetics.

>

> And that's how easy mode would work too.

>

> "Normal" mode: Whatever they currently offer in gold and generic loot, progress towards cosmetics.

>

> Easy mode: All of the above, just in smaller quantities relative to the difference in difficulty.

>

> If necessary, I am not opposed to raising the standard dropped rewards from raids if that needs to happen to keep them viable.

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > It's pointless mate. He doesn't care about the raids. He'd just get the rewards for himself even if this ruins a game mode completely, because he's not playing that content.

>

> That's not accurate. I've already noted that I would continue to view this as the best path forward, even if I, personally, were just given all this stuff and no longer had a personal need for it. It's not about me, but it is about people *like* me.

>

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > But winning 6 matches could also be considered to hard/not fun for some people. Where do you draw the line and why should those people then be ignored.

>

> "Where it's reasonable to do so," as with anything. Winning six matches cannot be described as "hard," because it's a team sport, and no matter how bad you might be, if you play enough matches you'll win six of them eventually just by luck. Plus you get points for losing too, so I think it's something like losing twenty matches and you get it too, so that's the hard floor. If you don't enjoy the mode after 20 matches, you probably never will. And yeah, it might be boring, but hat's what I'm talking about, if it's a reasonable amount of time, a few hours out of a game meant to be played for hundreds, then that's not a big deal. It's a far different thing than a reward that requires you to spend *hundreds* of hours doing an activity that you aren't enjoying.

>

> >But why is a few hours manageable? what makes the people in your argument who don't wat to spend those few hours worse then the people who do?

>

> On a game of this scope, I think it's disingenuous to even attempt to argue otherwise. If you're unwilling to put in a *few* hours here or there, then this is just entirely the wrong genre. If any player enjoys GW2 in any way, then they can be reasonably expected to invest a few hours here or there, simple as that. I don't take this as a serious argument, I take it as an attempt to shut down discussion of the topic, a combination of slippery slopes and strawmen that benefits nothing.

>

> >My point is that this boundary is so subjective that it could be applied to the current situation also. It would be in my opinion a much better use of their time to actually animate the PvP and WvW sets.

>

> You mean to make them as visually impressive as the raid ones? But then what about the PvE players, who still have no Legendary set at all? Or what if a raider likes the PvP set's look better, while a PvPer still prefers the raid set? Skins are not fungible, people like the ones they like, and there's no such thing as "equivalent" or "just as good." There are numerous blue and green skins in this game that I would trade for any Exotic or Ascended skins available if I could only choose one of them. If you give one side one unique skin, and the other side ten unique skins, that doesn't mean that the second side got a "better deal" if *they* prefer the one that is excluded from them. The only way to ensure that *everyone* is happy is to provide everyone access to *all* skins. Make them something you need to work towards, sure, but make it so that the *method* by which you work towards it can fall into a variety of tasks that are likely to suit the broadest reasonable range of players.

>

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > Game resoects their time by not putting something there that gives these players an advantage.

>

> That assumes that gameplay advantage is more important than cosmetics. I'd easily trade Legendary armor with no skins for white armor with the Envoy skins on them.

 

Its irrelevant what would you trade if someone could get ab advantage no skin in the game would allow you to be at his lvl

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > It's pointless mate. He doesn't care about the raids. He'd just get the rewards for himself even if this ruins a game mode completely, because he's not playing that content.

> >

> > That's not accurate. I've already noted that I would continue to view this as the best path forward, even if I, personally, were just given all this stuff and no longer had a personal need for it. It's not about me, but it is about people *like* me.

>

> Oh, I'm fully aware you would continue to view this as "the best path forward", as the alternative would be to admit to yourself you're being extremely selfish. You don't want to think that of yourself, and therefore you'll find a way to convince yourself otherwise. This is what makes the conversation pointless. You're debating out of belief and you're not listening to reason.

 

And you don't feel that this argument more applies to you and the people gatekeeping the current raid implementation? After all, *I'm* arguing that they should make rewards available to more players that want them, *you* are the one arguing "no, that's not necessary, because I've already got mine."

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Again why would i go from easy ti normal mode? Easy mode takes far less time to do.

 

That's entirely up to you. Why would you raid today when you could just farm world bosses? My assumption was that there were people that *enjoyed* raiding, but if nobody actually *wants* to be there then maybe they should just roll the whole thing up.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Its irrelevant what would you trade if someone could get ab advantage no skin in the game would allow you to be at his lvl

 

I wouldn't care. Most of my characters are in mostly exotics at the moment, a few might still have some rares sprinkled in there. That's fine for most content. If they added a new stat tier above Ascended, I couldn't care less who had it, so long as exotic is enough to get through the content. It's not like stat differences like that are more important than skins.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > It's pointless mate. He doesn't care about the raids. He'd just get the rewards for himself even if this ruins a game mode completely, because he's not playing that content.

> > >

> > > That's not accurate. I've already noted that I would continue to view this as the best path forward, even if I, personally, were just given all this stuff and no longer had a personal need for it. It's not about me, but it is about people *like* me.

> >

> > Oh, I'm fully aware you would continue to view this as "the best path forward", as the alternative would be to admit to yourself you're being extremely selfish. You don't want to think that of yourself, and therefore you'll find a way to convince yourself otherwise. This is what makes the conversation pointless. You're debating out of belief and you're not listening to reason.

>

> And you don't feel that this argument more applies to you and the people gatekeeping the current raid implementation? After all, *I'm* arguing that they should make rewards available to more players that want them, *you* are the one arguing "no, that's not necessary, because I've already got mine."

 

Nope. Because I'm giving actual, valid reasons. How do you know they're valid? Because they work. You can see them work, not just in this game, but in any other. The processes aren't that complex. You can easily anticipate their development. *You* choose to ignore that, not me. However, ignoring facts that we don't like isn't a good strategy. Not in real life, not in game development, not anywhere.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > It's pointless mate. He doesn't care about the raids. He'd just get the rewards for himself even if this ruins a game mode completely, because he's not playing that content.

> > > >

> > > > That's not accurate. I've already noted that I would continue to view this as the best path forward, even if I, personally, were just given all this stuff and no longer had a personal need for it. It's not about me, but it is about people *like* me.

> > >

> > > Oh, I'm fully aware you would continue to view this as "the best path forward", as the alternative would be to admit to yourself you're being extremely selfish. You don't want to think that of yourself, and therefore you'll find a way to convince yourself otherwise. This is what makes the conversation pointless. You're debating out of belief and you're not listening to reason.

> >

> > And you don't feel that this argument more applies to you and the people gatekeeping the current raid implementation? After all, *I'm* arguing that they should make rewards available to more players that want them, *you* are the one arguing "no, that's not necessary, because I've already got mine."

>

> Nope. Because I'm giving actual, valid reasons. How do you know they're valid? Because they work. You can see them work, not just in this game, but in any other. The processes aren't that complex. You can easily anticipate their development. *You* choose to ignore that, not me. However, ignoring facts that we don't like isn't a good strategy. Not in real life, not in game development, not anywhere.

 

I'm not ignoring anything, I'm just disagreeing with their application in this context. None of what you noted is hard fact, it's just your own opinion as to what benefits and what harms a game.